Slashdot Mirror
India Plans Moon Mission In 2005
ghoul writes: "I just came across this article in which the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) has announced plans for a moon mission. Considering that till now India has only launched geo-synchronous satellites, that's a big leap. But ISRO scientists claim by using a lightweight orbital vehicle they can use their existing PSLV (which launches 1-tonne missions into polar orbit) to send an orbiter to the moon.
The full article is available at India Today ." (No, not a manned mission, at least not yet.)
Today, we send rockets up so often that nobody even notices anymore. We can calculate in less than a second what an entire team of America's finest scientists would spend their whole day computing back when we went to the moon; I've got a better computer in my jacket pocket than they had for their entire operation. Today's spacecraft are durable, tested, and reliable--a far cry from the spindly, foil-wrapped craft of yesteryear. The guesswork of how to get to the moon no longer exists. What took the entire weight of the world's greatest superpower four decades ago could be done by any number of private companies today (assuming they wanted to devote their resources to a moon operation, of course.)
As fly-by-night as you'd like the ISRO to appear to the casual reader, they're clearly more organized and better funded than certain other space programs featured on /. as of late. True, a moon landing isn't a triviality by any stretch of the imagination. Given what we have and know today, though, I'd argue that they've got an excellent shot of pulling it off, should they move forward with it.
Remember, kids, it's only premarital if you plan on getting married.
> moon-orbiter for Rs 350 crore (a crore is
> 100,000, so 350,000,000 rupees ~= $11 million),
I thought a lakh was 10^5, while a crore was 10^7. So wouldn't Rs 350 crore be Rs 350,00,00,000, which is Rs 3.5 x 10^9 ~= $78.4 million as of today's market close?
The moon's an armpit. Not even worth going for the scenery. It'd be much better (I think) to try to rendevouz with one of the 900 or so near earth asteroids they've found. You could probably make a case for mining those things which would not only probably make you a lot of money, it'd have the beneficial side effect of dismantling those near earth objects so they don't crash into us. And you also gain space experience so you'll be ready to move your mining operations farther afield when the time comes. It's a win-win situation any way you look at it.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Argh. The link is here
Its about time the US got some competition in the space arena
Duh ? Ever heard of the Russians ? The French ? They both have very good space infrastructure - hell, the French even have a bigger market share than the US in term of commercial space launch ! The Russians have always been better than Nasa for manned missions (you can laugh at Mir problems, yet it did more than Nasa ever did). Even the Japanese and Chinese have some kind of space industry (yet quite small right now). The US always had some competition in the space industry, from the first Spoutnik to the modern Ariane V.
Good. Its about time the US got some competition in the space arena. Nothing could be better to get us interested in space again.
This is not an article about a planned moon mission, this is an article about a planned proposal for a moon mission.
In the next six months the team will wrestle with the details of launching such a mission, including its cost-effectiveness and the areas in which Indian scientists can significantly add to the mountain of knowledge that has already been collected about the moon. It will form the basis of a project report that ISRO will submit to the Central Government for approval
They have no funding, no governmental support, no scientific sponsors and no plan. Hey if all you need is a "desire" to get press, hell, I'm planning a mission to mars!
In the next six months my team will wrestle with the details of launching such a mission, including its cost-effectiveness and the areas in which /. wannabe scientists can significantly add to the mountain of knowledge that has already been collected about the Mars. It will form the basis of a project report that 348 will submit to the Slashdot submission queue for approval.
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
And the US has how many times Vietnam's population? Besides (and I'm stretching my geography here) they're fighting over Kashmir correct? Well that's a relatively small plot o' land. Not like India could put their entire population there to fight it out.
As master Yoda says "Judge me by my size will you?" (or something close to that)
-cpd
i believe it is the intent behind the reference, sir.
I said that indian people were in poor dental health...and that they were poor. while in fact india is a relatively poor country (comparatively at least) - i make no assumptions regarding their dental health. Assuming Indians eat better than americans, one could probably think they have better dental health than my own country. It was all in jest. While you one may find my joke tasteless, it was entirely obvious that it was, in fact, a joke
However, when i was called a bigot, that, sir, was in all seriousness, and yes....that does offend me. Not once in all the reply posts have i made in this thread did i state that i truly believed that India was a country "lesser" to that of the U.S. - I suppose i am just glad that when someone makes light of my heritage, i am able to laugh it off, or perhaps even participate in the meriment. I would hate to be as miserably defensive as the Indian gentleman who originally replied to my post.
BTW - if you haven't read all of the sub-threads, i encourage you to do so. there are some very insightful coments from several other people. Regardless of their viewpoints.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Um, no. A crore is 100 lakh and a lakh is 100 000. So the estimated cost is 3.5 x 10^10 rupees, which is about $10^9.
This is either very cheap for a manned mission or very expensive for a probe.
NASA caused, both directly and indirectly, millions, possibly billions, of dollars worth of return from aerospace technologies
I have heard many times this argument for investing into space.
But tell me, if instead of investing in space waiting for "direct or indirect returns", you invest directly in Earth technologies, what would you have achieved?
Maybe the returns would have improved even aerospace tech. Certainly the Earth ones would be much better.
I can share that going to space is good, but don't try to defend it with phony arguments.
__
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I own a Fisher Space pen and according to the literature in the pen case, the pen was vital to saving the mission. Supposedly one of the switches in the lander broke and the pen was used in its place.
Maybe a pencil would have broken? Then again, if they had a screwdriver it probably would have worked too.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
A slave-labour cartel
Ah, the Fisher Space Pen. $1 million white elephant, or...
Last time I visited KSC, those suchers went for about $5 at the gift shop. How many do you suppose they've sold over the years?
Having liven in Orlando, FL, and knowing firsthand how tourists'll buy damn near any little trinket...
I wouldn't be at all supprised if thet sell 200,000 a YEAR, much less TOTAL.
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
One?
Apollo 11 was our first manned landing, but it sure as shit wasn't our last.
Besides this is "just" a probe, I beleve we have done that quite a bit (including the "manned probe" -- the Apollo 10 mission....)
I know U.S. schools suck (witness my spelling), but maybe you should go rent HBO's "from the earth to the moon", the drama has been punched up a bit, and the stories compressed, but it's basically true, and entertaining.
A pity India won't get as much spin-off tech, they could use it. Regretably most of the problems have been solved. At least there are still intresting moon questions to answer, I hope they try too rather then just going for the orbiting flag.
you know - some of the few racists i know in this world are the ones that go "hey - i have a friend who's black!"
you just said it. - you know what you're problem is, you've given in to the P.C. view of life. You might think i'm a narrow minded individual because i posted the way i did. I think you're a narrow minded individual for exactly the opposite reasons. You will defend to the death freedom of speech - so long as you're in agreement with the speech. But it doesn't matter - when all is said and done, i don't see color or culture. I see an individual. - now...run along, there's a cause somewhere that's one protester short!
"I don't agree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it!"
-Voltaire
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Sure, NASA's budget may look massive by the standards of ONE INDIVIDUAL. But try comparing it to any of the MANY money pits the US dumps dollars into... and it's a (tiny) drop in the bucket.
Compare it to the money dumped into social security every year (thanks HEAPS.. F-ing FDR)
Compare it to the money dumped into national debt intrest every year (thanks HEAPS.. F-ing congress)
Sorry, but If *I* were appointed "budget root" and tasked with cutting wasteful government fat, NASA'd be nowhere NEAR the top of the list. In fact, it'd prolly get a budget INCREASE, even AFTER a tax cut, AND a faster repayment schedule for the national debt.
Want all of the gory details of where money is wasted? Go to:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/
john
Resistance is NOT futile!!!
Haiku:
I am not a drone.
Remove the collective if
Imagine all the people...
From 1999 Country Reports on Economic Policy and Trade Practices:
India:
Labor Force (millions) 420.0
Unemployment Rate (pct)22.5
So compared to the US, things are all well and good... and that goes for the 1960s as well as now.
In the "new economy" India has an opportunity to cash in on the vast resource of mental power that their population provides, transforming the liability of overpopulation into the asset of a highly skilled work force.
Building nukes may help a little, going to the moon may help a lot, but either way, they have a long way to go before misery and the assault on human dignity ends in India.
And yes, that is even in comparison to the U.S., home of Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Simpson murders, and (the horror, the horror) Kiddieland in San Antonio, TX.
Percentage of gov't revenues from corporate income taxes have approximately halved since 1956 while revenues from individuals has remained constant.
Good, corporate taxes should be abolished, as they are quite possibly one of the dumbest "features" of the US tax system. Corporate income taxes are only passed on to the consumer ultimately, and therefore disproportionately affect those with the lowest incomes. Not to mention their contribution to the double taxation on corporate dividends.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
actually, using a more practical approach, india plans on stacking each member of the population on the others' shoulders untill they create a human tower...they should reach the moon with a stack of approximately .82 billion people - all with poor dental health
how is this possible? how do they breath outside the earth's atmosphere? - simple. very long bendy straws.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
Slightly different from NASA though.
The space program has spun off quite a few benefits, including new polymers for surgical treatment. I do recall reading reports a couple of years ago (sorry, no data online) that at one medical conference, there were three major breakthroughs (locally again) in the treatment of cardiac problems. These were from the space program (material research in carbon fibres). This brought down the cost of treatment by about 20 -30%. That includes the cost of going to a developed country for treatment. The space program does contribute to Indian social needs, not just pride.
And about the nuclear proliferation stuff, India needs nukes simply because its neighbours have them. Just apply the same arguments as for gun control on a far larger scale. (I don't agree with those either).
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
Then again, who knows... Maybe there entire program consists of hiring the crazy rocket guy and blasting him to the moon. After all, the guy is crazy, and he's already had some training. It'd save the Indian project much money!
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seumas.com
But all of this is moot. As long as pioneer stock Americans see governments as their ticket to the new frontier, the long-term prospects for all of terrestrial life, human and nonhuman, are going to continue rapidly deteriorating.
Seastead this.
+---+
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"The crowning intellectual accomplishment of the brain is the real world."
pencil tips break. On earth, this isnt that big of a deal, but in space, these things could cause problems. Graphite dust or pencil tips getting sucked into the computers.. or facing the threat of getting a piece of it lodged in your eye or throat.
Admittedly, it may not be the most cost-effective thing in the world, but NASA doesnt like to take chances with its people.
not really. i tend to take it personally when someone calls me a biggot, be it on slashdot, or in real life.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
I would not be at all surprised to see Pakistan make a similar statement within the next year (Although I doubt their economy is in good enough shape to handle the strain of a serious space program)
>Have they fought an all-out war, or has it been >that kind of push-pull border conflict?
I was under the impression that at least some of the conflicts with Pakistan were at the level of full wars. I don't remember any exact dates, durations and numbers (which would be interesting to know), but I am fairly sure that there have been some straight on toe-to-toe battles fought over control of the border and Kashmir.
As for the Vietnam reference, the politcol will would definately be different. There are years of enimity built up between the two, dating from the partition- much different than the US (I had a history teacher that claims that the US faired the way it did in the war was because the army couldn't get hyped up about trying to kill Ho Chi Min, who looked "like an Asian Santa Claus"). However, my main point was that despite the inequity of numbers, the ability to slip guerilla forces into the other teams camp and launch attacks from within can be devastating. Combine that with the fact that the odds are good that Pakistan could count on the support of certain radical Islamic groups inside India (which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of radical Hindus and Sikhs to go around too), India could have a real mess on its hands.
"Sweet creeping zombie Jesus!"
Wasn't Bruce Sterling in "Islands in the Net" who wrote about a Singaporean mission to space in a time when the superpowers have lost their faith in astronautics?
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
It's history repeating itself. If you consider the political climate in India and the cold war they are caught in with Pakistan, the situation closely mirrors the one between the US and USSR in the late 60's. India has detonated it's first H-bomb in the past two years, and Pakistan still reserves the right to do the same. Both countries are scared of China, which is also engaged in an effort to build a nuclear arsenal. That region of the world is de-stabilizing. India needs to show they are technologically superior. Given the right incentive, you may see the Indian government get on board with this moon mission.
We went to the moon for the very same reasons.
The Indians who migrate to Jamaica seaking employment ( mostly medical staff ) say they love there homeland and will even return home for aranged wedins. Most are brutaly honest and will tell both the good and the bad.
Good: Indians are geting educated to high levles at a rapid rate.
Bad: It's taking a long time to overcome a long history of large impoverished pesant populations.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
You tell me.
--
One of NASA's major criticisms is that the American taxpayers basically pay to do a lot of very interesting but socially useless things when the money could better be spent on helping social programs like welfare and Medicare (whether or not you agree is beyond this argument; the fact that it is a criticism is fairly well known). With ISRO this is even /more/ so. If you think you've seen poverty in the Western world, wait til you see poverty in India, and then realize that there's a lot more of it. India is overpopulated, under-industrialized, in a state of almost constant conflict in Kashmir with Pakistan, and reeling from a set of natural disasters. ISRO would be better off, like the article says, commercializing and, like what the article doesn't say, solicity foreign investment and support for their mission. Unfortunately, their main reason for doing this isn't scientific (which, honestly, a proposal to orbit the moon for several years could actually be quite beneficial to understanding how the moon changes over time), but rather, for Indian pride, just like the nuclear weapons detonations two years ago and just like nearly every other major public undertaking.
A long time ago, the world learned that moon missions were like drinking after a bad day: they hid the problems, but they didn't fix them. We turned away from nuclear proliferation, wasteful manned missions, and 'just for the sake of doing it' public spending and instead focused on understanding and making our own world better. Maybe India needs to get over it's inferiority complex and utilize the vast social and economic resources it has squandered thus far, and think about doing things with the rest of the world that will benefit its people, not its image.
First, one reason is to explore the possibility of water in the moon. Didn't NASA just send up the Lunar Prospector at a cost of $63 million, and it discovered water? Yes it did. See the story hereABC News:Theres water on the moon
Another suggested activity, the unexplained levitation of dust in the airless lunar environment. Can you say gravity? Micrometeors make it to the moons surface and spray up dust, and since there is less gravity they appear to float.
One of their strong points is to show that they are on the cutting edge of technology. Is doing something that was done 30 years ago on the edge of technology?
Lets get serious, if they want to prove cutting edge, why not join the effort for the International Space Station?NASA ISS Homepage
Standard I/O Error. Incompetent/Operator.
Is this reminding anyone of the game Civilization? I wonder who's going to get that space colony up and running first.
Of course, the space sation is already five years overdue and over budget by a factor of something like ten, without being more than a quarter completed. But the situation with that was politically and technically quite different.
Sure, the superpowers may say 'been there, done that', but one advance this mission might show us (as well as crazy rocket guy's mission) is how to do space travel cheaply and on short notice. If NASA could do missions this cheaply, they could just send up three at a time to boost their success rate. =)
Reliable, cheap, turn-key space travel is what will bring the future here. Like computers: moving from ENIAC to the Vaio laptop.
We learned rather alot from going to the moon.. and when we do finally get to mars and the second mission starts planning, will you be piping up with, "What did we learn from mars? Wouldn't it be better to have an international effort to explore another rock in space -- like Venus?"
We never really even explored the moon. We have maps of it out the wazoo thanks to the fact that you can take a map-quality picture of it with a backyard telescope (albeit and expensive backyard telescope), but we've only been up there the one time. In fact, in all the time since we've never even bothered to leave a fairly shallow earth orbit. Here we are talking about going to mars (and don't get me wrong here, i wholeheartedly support anything that launches something at mars with at least a 60% chance of it not exploding) and yet we can get neither funding nor interest to go somewhere as close and potentially profitable as the moon.
Dreamweaver
"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live" -- MLK, Jr.
Despite the valid scientific reasons for sending a probe, it's clear that the real reason they're interested is prestige. India is an aspiring superpower, locked in a 3-way local arms-race with Pakistan and China. Gearing up their space program is one way of showing superiority over the Pakistanis, and keeping up with the Chinese (who are preparing for a manned launch with their Shen Zhou capsule). The science and technological spinoffs are just cream.
As for worries that this is just a cover for missile research, I think they're barking up the wrong tree. If the Indian PSLV can put a 1-ton satellite into 1000km polar orbit, it's perfectly capable of lobbing bombs at Washinton or Beijing. The reason the Indians aren't deploying it as an ICBM is almost certainly because they lack an adequete guidance system, not because they lack a decent booster. Throwing probes at the moon probably won't help the quest to get 500-meter accuracy with a warhead...
Idiot/Savant