Slashdot Mirror
Project Dragonslayer: Forging Old Tech With New
Mark Balaschak writes: "[This link]
is the easy route to an article on the state of materials science from
the May 12 issue of Science. Cool in its own right, the article's
kicker is at the end: Northwestern's Dragonslayer Project, which aims to
produce a single historically-patterned double-edge broadsword of surpassing
temper and hardness. Lacking an ISO Standard Dragon to test it, the
sword's criterion of proof will be its ability to cut through a modern
case-hardened blade. And to add that extra touch of mythic resonance,
it will be made from meteoritic iron. Its makers plan to offer
the blade up at auction to collectors -- my guess is that it will go to the
lady in the white samite ...
" This has to be one of the coolest projects I've seen in a long time. Perhaps they could apply it on a smaller scale and sell some nice tantos as well?
I wonder if layering would be such a good idea on a Claymore/broadsword kind of weapon? The Euros wore a lot of plate metal armor which had to be hacked through in no uncertain terms, wheras the Japanese wore much lighter armor and forged blades which were much better at cutting.
Can you get the best of both worlds in one sword, I wonder, or is it better to specialize one way or the other?
In either case, Happy Hacking!
(-_-)
**>>BELCH
I'm curious, how does one go about becoming an amateur metalworker, metallurgy hobbyist? Are there any good books or web sites on the subject?
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
This one got posted because the poster made a big deal out of the Northwestern project. The title Project Dragon Slayer! didn't hurt either. That got attention. I tend to be too longwinded in my submissions, and so they don't get posted. I share your pain, so I suggest that you resubmit your story as: Man jumps 10K feet with 85kg parachute, lives, patents, sues, and threatens Internet!.
--locust
I would think that over all you would have vey little chance of killing a Dragon with a sword.
That's why it takes a hero.
In any case, a lot depends on how big you assume the dragon is. I remember an old picture of St. George and the dragon; the dragon was depicted as being about the same size as a large croc. By the way he was using a lance, but it would be feasible but risky to dispatch such a beast with a heavy sword.
If you imagine the dragon to be like Tolkien's Smaug, he'd have to be large enough to eat several ponies, and and strong enough to smash the entire side of a mountain. He has enough fire breath to set an entire town on fire in a couple of passes. He boasts (in all liklihood truthfully) that his teeth are as long as swords and his talons are like lances.
Taking on that kind of dragon with hand weapons is rather like taking on an Apache gunship. The lucky bow shot is pretty much your best option. Successfully killing that kind of dragon with a sword pretty much out of the question, although supposedly in Middle Earth history it had been done.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think it's the same principle as those carnival games where one hits a hammer on a piston and depending on how high the ball goes, you get a prize. In my experience the winners use the lighter mallet, though most go for the heavier one since you would think it will hit harder. the key is that kinetic energy is 1/2 * m * v^2 where m is the masss of the object and v is the objects speed. Thus the velocity is more important in determing the strengh of the resulting blow. A heavier mallet (or sword) will be much more difficult to get to a high speed (except for using gravity).
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
The "Highlander" sword has to be the all-time favourite.
"Pssst! This was hand-made in the 1500's by a Japanese warrior swordsmith named Tempura Sushiyama, who reportedly died just after it was completed...yours for $85!"
"What's that? You only have $40? Dude...this one here may look like junk, but...(lowers voice to barely perceptible whisper)...it's plus 2 to hit, dude!"
**>>BELCH
Ironically enough, the auction for this real-life weapon is to occur on Everquest.
Mmmnnn... Wood elves.
I didn't see this in the article, but I wonder if they are planning on making it weigh 40 - 50 lbs the way a traditional broadsword would, or plan on using the technology available to cut the weight down to 5-10lbs or even less. That would make one hell of a devestating hand to hand weapon.....
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
It's one of the things I keep telling my non-techie "people" (ok, so that's mainly family) ... we're living so incredibly close to a science fiction reality, it's not funny.
Molecularly perfect sword blades (drool). Straight out of half a dozen futuristic RPGs, not to mention countless novels.
Mapping the human genome (floored). Yeah it's only one step but...wow.
Molecular computing, pervasive wireless networking(hell, just the Internet itself is something incredible -- we just take it so much for granted we forget how out of this world it is), nanotech, etc, etc, etc!
We live in fascinating times, people. I just wonder whether our grandkids will say, "Wow, you lived in fascinating times" or if they'll think their advances are as amazing as ours. I mean, the past 100 years has been incredible. Will the next hundred? With the stuff we're on the horizon of figuring out, it's hard to imagine it being anything less....
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
I *want* this sword. But since I'll never be able to afford it, maybe I can get the next best thing -- at the very end of the article, they say they may make a line of Dragonslayer golf clubs using this technology.
;)
I don't see how a nine-iron could really hurt a dragon, but I'll willing to put on my armor and spar with it for a while to see if it's an effective weapon.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
I said the only 10lb sword THERE, as in at the location where I was able to weigh the broadsword.
That has no bearing on any other location on earth. But the collection of swords I was looking at contained only 1 rapier, the only sword that was around 10lbs.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
People in London who are into such things should check out the reproduction blade of the Sutton Hoo sword in the British Museum. It's a nice example of Damascus steel work and gives an idea of why these things must have been so highly prized. The reproduction blade was made in Wisconsin, which is funny.
Also, while I know little about ancient weapons tech, there is a seemingly reliable account of the battle of Hastings that describes an axe blow delivered by a saxon housecarl that cut through a horse's neck and chopped the rider's leg off. One assumes that the foot soldiers of the time were wielding pretty heavy weapons...
-----
Yes, up to a point.
At some point, the human arm is incapable of moving faster. So if E = 1/2 mv^2, note that v itself is a function of m, and dv/dm is zero some neighborhood of m=0; in otherwords, you hit your maximum speed at some m1 > 0; since velocity is a constant for mm1, then m1 represents the maximum energy on the set of masses [0..m1]. Furthermore m1 is not necessarily the maximum energy on the intervale [0..infinity], because in some neighborhood [m1..m2] velocity decreases very slowly as a function of mass, so that the square law decrease in velocity is still overwhelmed by the linear increase in mass. If we define m2 this way, that is to say the mass at which the square of the decrease of velocity is exactly offset by the increase in mass, then the global maximum for energy is at m2. m1 and m2 are dependent upon the individual and the technique he uses to swing the sword.
In other words, the only way to determine optimal weight is empirically.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Much of a broadswords power comes from its weight, with the strike being assited by gravity.
Well, not exactly. Being a longtime kung fu practioner, I am fairly conversant with the Chinese broadsword which, while a much different design, works prety much on the same physical principles. A moderately heavy broadsword is going to have considerable power when swung horizontally, and the heaviest broadsword that is simply allowed to drop is not going to have much power at all.
In other words -- muscle does the work. Gravity's most important role is providing the wielder a stable platform from which to lever the sword into action.
The relation of mass to penetrating power, all other things being equal, is dependent in a complex and inherently only empiracally testable way to each individual's body mechanics. For any given individual, there is going to be an optimal weight from the point of view of penetrating power, all other parameters being equal. Imagine a sword that is as light as a reed; naturally while you can swing it with great speed it will have very little bite. On the other hand, imagine a sword that is literally the heaviest you can lift. If you could swing it even moderately fast it would have terrific penetrating power. Unfortunately, you can barely move it, so it too has no penetrating power (but in the hands of Arnold it could be pretty damned devestating).
Now imagine a sword that's roughly a third as heavy as you can lift. That sucker's going to bite.
What they need to do is to conduct biomechanical studies using sword collectors as a test population. Have them swing iron bars of various weights into dynamometers and figure out what weight, on average, yields the most energy when swung by a pencil neck fantasy freak. Naturally an actual warrior is going to be much stronger, and training will produce neuromuscular faciliation, so he'll be considerably faster as well. Therefore, I suspect that the statistically optimal sword for the amateur will be unusually light when compared to professional models.
Swords tend, I think, to be lighter than is purely optimal from the point of penetration. That is because speed gives tactical advantages which have to be traded off with pure crushing power. However, in dragon slaying literature I've read, dragons are not depicted as being particularly fast. Large animals tend to have slower reaction times because of the finite speed of nerve signal propagation, so a huge animal is going to be relatively slower than a human being. Also, note that they are armored -- critters that make their living off of speed don't carry armor; highly armored creatures, such as tortises,tend to be slow. Of course, dragon armor must be unusually light since it must permit the dragon to fly. However, it is safe to say that reaction time is not likely to be a dragon's forte: strength, invulnerability and, of course, fire breathing are.
For that reason, the sword should be weighted for optimal penetration (i.e. relatively heavy) since a slight loss of blade speed is not a critical tactical factor. The dragonslayer is unlikely to be called upon to execute quick parrying and feinting type maneuvers.
This has the fortuitous effect that the optimal dragonslaying sword for the amateur would probably make a fine all around weapon for a trained warrior.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
As an amateur metalworker, interested in forging techniques and bladesmithing in general I'm watching this with great interest. I've often spent long periods with metallurgical analyses of both the traditional japanese swords and the pattern-welded european ancient blades. They have in common a multi-laminate structure, of steels of varying hardness, the core of the blade being softer than the edge and the martensite generated in the blades production being deliberately (although empirically) arranged to preserve a sharper, harder edge. This is, after all, why a good blade was often a pretty one too and where the true artistry of a master bladesmith (which I most definitely am NOT) shows.
Since I've contemplated experimenting with a hybrid technique myself I'm hoping that this project will at least give me some ideas.
# human firmware exploit
# Word will insert into your optic buffer
# without bounds checking
I had a
I'd like to add that nothing strikes fear in the hearts of your enemies quite like a foil with a little ball of rubber on the end.
Now, some of us will probably never have the opportunity to be in a pitched battle with a sword, so the beauty/elegance of the piece will outweigh (pun!) its real usefulness.
As for real swordplay, er fencing, I'm pretty sure I could take out-- or at least really annoy-- a Komodo Dragon with a mere sabre.
-CausticPuppy "Of all the people I know, you're certainly one of them." -Somebody I don't know
I think that number would be even higher if swords weren't a really expensive thing to have hanging on your wall. Even those cheesy (unsharpened!) replicas that all the House of Knives locations have are hundreds of dollars... I'd love to have a huge collection of authentic (or accurate replicas) swordsd, from both western and eastern cultures, but I'm not rich, so I'll just have to hope that maybe these Project Dragonslayer guys will use their newfound knowledge to make more swords, as well as golf clubs (ugh... what a waste of cool metalurgy).
Intolerant people should be shot.
ROFL. That's excellent. For once someone made a good techie-joke that's not computer/internet related.
Have you checked in Machinery's Handbook? First, you'd need to find some material properties for dragon flesh. I checked, but the closest thing were some tables entitled "Optimum Feedrates for Rough Machining of Low Carbon Dragon"
Why did the epee supplant the rapier then?
Because the rapier wasn't a nice weapon to wear to court because caught up in your clothing (after the doublet and hose went out of style).
Which is to say that saying a rapier is better than a broadsword is like saying Apache is better than Linux... Different weapons fulfil different missions and answer to different requirements.
The broadsword isn't silly at all. People of yore were just as smart as us, they spent a lot more time thinking about these things than you or I, and tested them. It wasn't that they were too stupid to come up with the rapier or the cavalry saber. They decided that the broadsword design was the best tool for a certain class of jobs. It has a number of virtues that make it particularly versatile.
(1) It is user friendly. You can hand it to a raw recruit and order him to go forth and kill, and he will by in large do it unto others rather than himself. It's simplicity helps a trained soldier too. If it slips out of your hand on the battlefield, pick it up and swing it any old way. If you're slipping on blood, tripping over rocks or falling into a hole, swing it in the general direction of your target and its fairly likely to do something lethal if it connects. Scientific fencing is fine for a morning on nicely trimmed grass or a gravel dueling ground, but it won't avail if you're standing in a rugged terrain strewn with the bodies of men and horses.
(2) It is rugged; it can take blows from staves and heavy pole arms for example. It can be used in the countless ad hoc ways that soldiers in need of tools do. You probably could chop wood with it in a pinch. The rapier fails miserably here; it is not a military weapon.
(3) It is lethal. It has tremendous penetrating and killing power. It will chop of limbs in the unarmored and crush and break them in the armored. The rapier also doesn't measure up here -- it is a dueling weapon ideal for subduing somebody with possibly lethal side effects. You use it to attack the tendons, ligaments and surface arteries of your opponent.
(4) It is relatively small. It is easy to carry on long fast marches and can be put to use in confined quarters in a pinch. The rapier is superior in this respect, and heavy pole arms are inferior.
(5) It is easy to care for. Put it in its convenient sheath and its fairly well protected from rust and dings.
These qualities make the broadsword a good choice for the anti-draconian mission. A heavy pole arm, spear might appear to be a better choice, but remember the dragon also has a distance weapon, and a better one to boot -- fire. Your survival chances are much better two or three feet away than ten of fifteen, although none to good in any case. I might opt for a short halberd or broad double headed axe for its killing power. The longer the confrontation, the worse your chances. You are definitely not going to knick the thing into submission with a gentlemans toy.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Ok, first of all tantos are Japanese or at least asian long knives. Project Dragon Slayer is trying to build a european patterned double edged sword. Wrong geography.
On the other hand I think this is really cool as engineer working in materials who does kenjutsu in his spare time. Unlike other fields, the best material to use for swords is still basically a good low-alloy steel. Most composites and high tech metals (like titanium) can't hold an edge without becoming too brittle. High alloy steels can't be hardened properly to create a soft spine and hard edge. What might be really interesting is to see if someone could make a composite sword using steel edges and different spine material. It could do some significant weight reduction and probably be made using some of the old pattern welding techniques used in the late dark ages.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
Large animals tend to have slower reaction times because of the finite speed of nerve signal propagation, so a huge animal is going to be relatively slower than a human being
True when comparing mammals, and true again when comparing lizards. (Dragons appear to be related to the latter). But when comparing lizards to mammals the strike of a lizard is way faster than you'd predict by considering a mammal of the same size.
Lizards are cold-blooded. So they can be mostly fast-twitch and do a significant amount of high-speed work before they cook themselves.
Also: If the strike doesn't require a mid-course correction it can be pipelined, so the neural delay doesn't matter.
But it also means that, if you can see it coming, you, as a small mammal, may be able to dodge. Watch "The Crock Hunter" versus a snake or a croc some time.
The problem is when the snake or crock (or dragon) pretends to be a stick or log (or redwood tree) until the strike. Then you DON'T see it coming until it's too late to dodge.
Of course, dragons can take advantage of their airspeed, too... B-)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
And what would you do with it? Chop down trees?
Oh wait, I know, go to Indonesia and hunt for real dragons! Hmmm, I wonder if I can take a broadsword carry-on...
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
I'd rather just have my trusty Leatherman Wave with such a blade. The Leatherman is much more practical in every day life than a rapier, broadsword, or katana (or, for that matter, adamantium claws). And if it's too big and nasty to kill with a Leatherman, then I don't want to screw with it no matter what kind of sword I have. :P
The enemies of Democracy are
The most interesting aspect of this discussion is learning just how many slashdot readers are armed with kick-ass swords.
This is just fucking perfect. Someone builds a rocket in their back garden and it gets posted. Now someone makes a sword and it gets posted, but submit a story about Leonardo da Vincis parachute being tested and working, and you get rejected.
Can someone explain to me just what is news for nerds and stuff that matters.
Find funky gifts
If a dragon kept stealing your girlfriends, wouldn't you start learning how to make swords?
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Ha. Little you know. I've been in the SCA 10+yrs, and where you thought
I thought And I'll have you know, Salon reported we're one of the few exceptive flavors of geek actually getting any (we all know what a pure wellspring of relevant and unbiased intel Salon isI commend metallurgy highly to you. :)
----------------------------------------------
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
I seem to recall that, in some cyberpunk novel (Sterling?) poor South Asian peasants destroy their jungles using supersharp mass-produced cheap ceramical cutlasses.
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Sadly, I don't have a link for this.
Beowulf slaying a Grendel cluster with these?
The sword that these predictive-materials geeks are building is actually a "long sword" or a "bastard sword", not a broadsword. A broadsword has one edge, and is straight or slightly curved, with a small basinet. Think of the swords in the US Marine ads - that's a broadsword.
Aside from that little snafu in terminology, this seems like a great project. That sword reminds me of the "artifacts" from D+D, unique and very powerful. Using meteoric iron is cool, there have been blades throughout history made from it, and there is a scientific basis for it being a good material to work with: the metals in meteors tend to be very pure, of pure iron or alloyed iron and nickel.
I wonder how much that beasty is going to go for at auction?
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.