Slashdot Mirror
Project Dragonslayer: Forging Old Tech With New
Mark Balaschak writes: "[This link]
is the easy route to an article on the state of materials science from
the May 12 issue of Science. Cool in its own right, the article's
kicker is at the end: Northwestern's Dragonslayer Project, which aims to
produce a single historically-patterned double-edge broadsword of surpassing
temper and hardness. Lacking an ISO Standard Dragon to test it, the
sword's criterion of proof will be its ability to cut through a modern
case-hardened blade. And to add that extra touch of mythic resonance,
it will be made from meteoritic iron. Its makers plan to offer
the blade up at auction to collectors -- my guess is that it will go to the
lady in the white samite ...
" This has to be one of the coolest projects I've seen in a long time. Perhaps they could apply it on a smaller scale and sell some nice tantos as well?
This one got posted because the poster made a big deal out of the Northwestern project. The title Project Dragon Slayer! didn't hurt either. That got attention. I tend to be too longwinded in my submissions, and so they don't get posted. I share your pain, so I suggest that you resubmit your story as: Man jumps 10K feet with 85kg parachute, lives, patents, sues, and threatens Internet!.
--locust
It's one of the things I keep telling my non-techie "people" (ok, so that's mainly family) ... we're living so incredibly close to a science fiction reality, it's not funny.
Molecularly perfect sword blades (drool). Straight out of half a dozen futuristic RPGs, not to mention countless novels.
Mapping the human genome (floored). Yeah it's only one step but...wow.
Molecular computing, pervasive wireless networking(hell, just the Internet itself is something incredible -- we just take it so much for granted we forget how out of this world it is), nanotech, etc, etc, etc!
We live in fascinating times, people. I just wonder whether our grandkids will say, "Wow, you lived in fascinating times" or if they'll think their advances are as amazing as ours. I mean, the past 100 years has been incredible. Will the next hundred? With the stuff we're on the horizon of figuring out, it's hard to imagine it being anything less....
Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
People in London who are into such things should check out the reproduction blade of the Sutton Hoo sword in the British Museum. It's a nice example of Damascus steel work and gives an idea of why these things must have been so highly prized. The reproduction blade was made in Wisconsin, which is funny.
Also, while I know little about ancient weapons tech, there is a seemingly reliable account of the battle of Hastings that describes an axe blow delivered by a saxon housecarl that cut through a horse's neck and chopped the rider's leg off. One assumes that the foot soldiers of the time were wielding pretty heavy weapons...
-----
I would tend to think it would be closer to the 5-10lbs. Of the swords that I have looked at, (and own,) none are that large. AT 40-50 lbs, it is more of a two-hander, and actually more of a club. Here's a greatsword, (43" blade), that weighs in just under 6 lbs, and this is a REAL sword, (this is about the finest manufacturer I have found, I have a long sword from them) Great Sword
The main thing I see, is that you really can't weild a 40lb sword effectively for much of anything. Perhaps one horseback, but even then it becomes very unweildy, and generally the balance is not going to be very good on a weapon of that size(well, the balance may be good, but it won't be superb just because of the size of it.)
I am forced to concede as I just reaxmined some of my information. The sword I weighed was apparently of pretty disgustingly crappy workmanship. Because citing from this page I realize I am in error and you sir, are correct:
Sword Myths
Myth #2: Medieval broadswords weighed 10 to 15 pounds, some as much as 40 pounds.
This myth comes from the same place as the myth about the weight of plate armor. Plate armor was worn by knights in the 14th to 17th centuries, and it was certainly bulkier than normal street clothes. However, if a knight wore armor that made it hard to get up after falling from his horse, then such a knight didn't live very long, no matter how thick his armor was. And such a knight would die just as fast trying to wield a sword that weighed 15 pounds.
Actually, the average medieval broadsword weighed around 3 to 5 pounds, and only the very strongest warriors could handle the 5 to 8 pound hand-and-a-half swords and early Claymores. And then there were those giants who hauled the occasional two-handed great sword into battle, but even those only pushed 12 pounds at the maximum. Even the so-called Austrian Masterpiece two-handed sword with a flamberge blade weighed only 8 to 10 pounds.
Just to give you an idea, the Marto Excalibur is 48" long overall and weighs around 6 pounds, the CAS Iberia Black Baron sword is about 38" and weighs just 3¼ pounds, the CAS Iberia Swept Hilt Rapier is 44" long and weighs only 2½ pounds. And even Marto's largest Claymore is 56" long and weighs only 8½ pounds. All these swords feature steel blades and have the same size and proportions as their Medieval and Renaissance counterparts.
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
Much of a broadswords power comes from its weight, with the strike being assited by gravity.
Well, not exactly. Being a longtime kung fu practioner, I am fairly conversant with the Chinese broadsword which, while a much different design, works prety much on the same physical principles. A moderately heavy broadsword is going to have considerable power when swung horizontally, and the heaviest broadsword that is simply allowed to drop is not going to have much power at all.
In other words -- muscle does the work. Gravity's most important role is providing the wielder a stable platform from which to lever the sword into action.
The relation of mass to penetrating power, all other things being equal, is dependent in a complex and inherently only empiracally testable way to each individual's body mechanics. For any given individual, there is going to be an optimal weight from the point of view of penetrating power, all other parameters being equal. Imagine a sword that is as light as a reed; naturally while you can swing it with great speed it will have very little bite. On the other hand, imagine a sword that is literally the heaviest you can lift. If you could swing it even moderately fast it would have terrific penetrating power. Unfortunately, you can barely move it, so it too has no penetrating power (but in the hands of Arnold it could be pretty damned devestating).
Now imagine a sword that's roughly a third as heavy as you can lift. That sucker's going to bite.
What they need to do is to conduct biomechanical studies using sword collectors as a test population. Have them swing iron bars of various weights into dynamometers and figure out what weight, on average, yields the most energy when swung by a pencil neck fantasy freak. Naturally an actual warrior is going to be much stronger, and training will produce neuromuscular faciliation, so he'll be considerably faster as well. Therefore, I suspect that the statistically optimal sword for the amateur will be unusually light when compared to professional models.
Swords tend, I think, to be lighter than is purely optimal from the point of penetration. That is because speed gives tactical advantages which have to be traded off with pure crushing power. However, in dragon slaying literature I've read, dragons are not depicted as being particularly fast. Large animals tend to have slower reaction times because of the finite speed of nerve signal propagation, so a huge animal is going to be relatively slower than a human being. Also, note that they are armored -- critters that make their living off of speed don't carry armor; highly armored creatures, such as tortises,tend to be slow. Of course, dragon armor must be unusually light since it must permit the dragon to fly. However, it is safe to say that reaction time is not likely to be a dragon's forte: strength, invulnerability and, of course, fire breathing are.
For that reason, the sword should be weighted for optimal penetration (i.e. relatively heavy) since a slight loss of blade speed is not a critical tactical factor. The dragonslayer is unlikely to be called upon to execute quick parrying and feinting type maneuvers.
This has the fortuitous effect that the optimal dragonslaying sword for the amateur would probably make a fine all around weapon for a trained warrior.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Why did the epee supplant the rapier then?
Because the rapier wasn't a nice weapon to wear to court because caught up in your clothing (after the doublet and hose went out of style).
Which is to say that saying a rapier is better than a broadsword is like saying Apache is better than Linux... Different weapons fulfil different missions and answer to different requirements.
The broadsword isn't silly at all. People of yore were just as smart as us, they spent a lot more time thinking about these things than you or I, and tested them. It wasn't that they were too stupid to come up with the rapier or the cavalry saber. They decided that the broadsword design was the best tool for a certain class of jobs. It has a number of virtues that make it particularly versatile.
(1) It is user friendly. You can hand it to a raw recruit and order him to go forth and kill, and he will by in large do it unto others rather than himself. It's simplicity helps a trained soldier too. If it slips out of your hand on the battlefield, pick it up and swing it any old way. If you're slipping on blood, tripping over rocks or falling into a hole, swing it in the general direction of your target and its fairly likely to do something lethal if it connects. Scientific fencing is fine for a morning on nicely trimmed grass or a gravel dueling ground, but it won't avail if you're standing in a rugged terrain strewn with the bodies of men and horses.
(2) It is rugged; it can take blows from staves and heavy pole arms for example. It can be used in the countless ad hoc ways that soldiers in need of tools do. You probably could chop wood with it in a pinch. The rapier fails miserably here; it is not a military weapon.
(3) It is lethal. It has tremendous penetrating and killing power. It will chop of limbs in the unarmored and crush and break them in the armored. The rapier also doesn't measure up here -- it is a dueling weapon ideal for subduing somebody with possibly lethal side effects. You use it to attack the tendons, ligaments and surface arteries of your opponent.
(4) It is relatively small. It is easy to carry on long fast marches and can be put to use in confined quarters in a pinch. The rapier is superior in this respect, and heavy pole arms are inferior.
(5) It is easy to care for. Put it in its convenient sheath and its fairly well protected from rust and dings.
These qualities make the broadsword a good choice for the anti-draconian mission. A heavy pole arm, spear might appear to be a better choice, but remember the dragon also has a distance weapon, and a better one to boot -- fire. Your survival chances are much better two or three feet away than ten of fifteen, although none to good in any case. I might opt for a short halberd or broad double headed axe for its killing power. The longer the confrontation, the worse your chances. You are definitely not going to knick the thing into submission with a gentlemans toy.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Beowulf slaying a Grendel cluster with these?
The sword that these predictive-materials geeks are building is actually a "long sword" or a "bastard sword", not a broadsword. A broadsword has one edge, and is straight or slightly curved, with a small basinet. Think of the swords in the US Marine ads - that's a broadsword.
Aside from that little snafu in terminology, this seems like a great project. That sword reminds me of the "artifacts" from D+D, unique and very powerful. Using meteoric iron is cool, there have been blades throughout history made from it, and there is a scientific basis for it being a good material to work with: the metals in meteors tend to be very pure, of pure iron or alloyed iron and nickel.
I wonder how much that beasty is going to go for at auction?
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.