Slashdot Mirror
The Internet For Parrots
AndrewD writes: "Picked this up from the print edition of New Scientist. It's about the development of web browsers for animals, in this case a 17-month-old african grey parrot. Here is the researcher's site." This does explain all that aol.com traffic.
Dr. Pepperberg would hold out a tray of various objects and ask Alex how many red squares or ask him what a key was made out of ... "4 red squares"... "metel key" ... Alex sounded out. It was really quite amazing. He understood concepts like same and different as well.
What I found amusing was that Alex performed all of the intelligence tests normally given to chimpanzees, small children, smart dogs, elephants, and dolphins. Of course Alex passed these tests with flying colors showing a theoretically greater intelligence. This was very conflicting to the animal behaviorists because they had always relied on two givens:
- Small animals with small brains will have less intelligence.
- Animals closer to humans in the evolutionary tree will have higher intelligence (aka chimps)
So here we have Alex who can easily be compared to a 5-year-old child but is stuck in a tiny body of beak and feathers. Poor Dr. Pepperberg was ostracized by the rest of the scientists because her well published findings didn't gel with the prevailing theories.Now African Grey's are getting more attention and a whole new monkey wrench has been thrown in the mix. That monkey wrench being quaker parrots. These pint-sized peckers are less than 1/3rd the size of an African Grey and have much of the same intelligence. These resiliant little guys are the only parrot banned in 15 states because the ag boards feel they might get out and eat the crops. In fact the Argentine government recently killed 450,000 of them fearing their numbers were too great. Consider the political ramifications of killing that many chimps or elephants or dolphins? Remember these little green birds are more intelligent. Interesting, eh?
Ok so if you want to read more about Dr. Pepperberg you can visit here: http://www.cages.org/research/p epperberg/index.html or you can catch her on the discovery channel every once in a while with Alex.
You look a 4 year old in the face and ask him whats four plus five. He/she will just look at you strange.. Teach that child well enough though and give him four blocks then later give him five blocks and ask him how many there were total. And you might get and answer.
Are parrots tricromats like us? That is, is their vision based on the same three wavelength-sensitive visual receptors (red, green, blue) that we are?
The reason I ask is that PC monitors are designed to present to us not the actual color mixtures of light reflected by objects, but a combination of these three hues adjusted in intensity to create the same response in our eyes as the actual object would, so it "looks" the same to us. But would it look the same to a parrot?
If their vision is based on a different system, say one, two, or four different light sensitive receptors, then what is displayed on a monitor would look nothing like it would to them in real life.
This same issue comes to mind in many sci-fi novels that depict alien life as being able to read human signs, interact with human control panels and indicators, etc., when chances are if we ever do encounter ET it may not even be able to "see" in wavelengths that our atmosphere is transparent to...but I digress :)
Babies are cute because they have to be.
OK. I PROMISE that I can find a more beneficial project for mankind, can I get the grant money for this project? No, I don't know what my own goal will be, but c'mon--gimme some credit. I can beat out web browsing parrots.
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
this january discover magazine had a really fascinating article about alex, a 23-year old african grey. if what its researcher/owner says is true, it demonstrates (or at least is able to express) intelligence greater than any primate i've read about.
-_-
Researchers have often "determined" whether a drug is chemically addictive by testing whether e.g. a rat will self-administer the drug. Hook the beast up to an IV, demonstrate to it that pushing a lever will give it a drop of smack, and watch. Rats will self-administer opiates and quickly become massively addicted. Caffeine, nicotine, cocaine; the usual suspects. Rats don't seem to like alcohol, THC (pot), or LSD.
So, in light of recent worries about web addiction, will a parrot self-administer the web?
Woah, check out my keywords...Echelon's gonna love this post.
Cmon man. Dr. Pepperberg is funded. People alot smarter than you read through her proposals and gave her money to do this work- a long time ago. She has since justified that investment by demonstrating parrots score on par with chimps, dolphins and five year old kids on iq tests. They measure a quotient- not intelligence or comprehension.
If you get hit by a car and experience severe brain trauma, rendering you less intelligent; therapists may use her techniques to train you how to piss in a hole.
You give humans way too much credit, and you also have a very narrow idea of intelligence- which to date has not nearly been properly defined.
Speaking with animals helps us understand language, cognition, perhaps intelligence; but also gives us clues about our own evolution.
It is unreasonable to expect that earth would only produce one sentient species. We need to know more about this so we can be responsible as earth's ambassadors.
-Sleen
And while children are starving and women are being beaten and raped, you're sitting here posting to Slashdot? Go help them, for God's sake!
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
On the other hand, such a horse probably qualifies as intelligent by virtue of the ability to manipulate the stupid human into giving him a carrot.
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seumas.com
Here is a link to an article about Alex from the current article referenced in this story. http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opinion.jsp?id =ns222113
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As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
This does explain all that aol.com traffic.
It also explains all the first-posters.
What sort of protocol would a frog use? Kermit?
Blog,Twitter
So they can have easy access to loads of parrot pr0n, of course.
To get something done, a committee should consist of no more than three persons, two of them absent.
I'm wondering how much karma the parot would colect on slashdot.
"Linux is faster than NT"
"Java should be GPLed"
"Music should be free"
"John Katz sucks"
"Pouring Hot Grits"
I'm sure we could teach it these simple lines. It would fit right in with the rest of us.
-Peace
Dave
Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
-pf
Make affiliate bucks
I guess the AOL helpdesk guys decided they wanted to answer intelligent questions.
"If voting could really change things, it would be illegal. " - Revolution Books, NY
I'm not suggesting parrots are stupid. Far from it. But if you expect me to think a parrot is going to gain anything from some contraption that allows him to browse Slashdot and the ArtBell website, you must think I'm nuts.
I'm glad to know that while there are children in the country starving and women being beaten and raped and people dying of a million diseases, someone is funding the development of a web-browser for a freaking bird.
--BEGIN UNNECESSARY SARCASM--
If parrots are so smart, how come there are over a million of them trapped in cages in America? Hmmm? Answer that?! What, now they're going to read the screen-play from 'The Great Escape' and plan a massive rebellion and freedom revolution?
--END SARCASM--
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seumas.com
Of all the technological advances of the past century (autos, television, the personal computer, etc.) why are we just now realizing that we've been leaving the animals out?
Did it take something as big as the internet to wake us up? Get our head out of the clouds? Stop inventing things without regard for anything else, and take a look at our animal bretheren?
I think this MIT guy has it right! It's time to bring the animals with us into the new millenium! No longer will we leave them behind in primitive isolation!
And since the internet is such a great wealth of knowledge, if we can get animals internet access, then they can learn about everything from driving a car to watching tv to making their own homepage!
Just think if your neighbor's cat could surf the 'net all night long! No more midnight screeching! And what if those pesky squirrels could check their e-mail without too much hassle? They'd be more likely to leave your bird feeder alone!
My one problem with this guy is that I think he should have started with mammals.. i think the interface would be easier, since we are mammals too.
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But the entire idea of web-browsing parrots is a joke. What kind of serious discussion did you expect to find here?!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Two thoughts:
1) Introspect on your own knowledge of words. Most people have a sense that there's a bit more than just an association between a sound sequence and a set of physical objects --- there's a sense of understanding that this is not just any set of tones, this is a word, and it is attached to an abstract concept. How on earth will you teach a parrot what love is? What hate is? The definition of "taste"? This is the difference between a human and a parrot: you can teach a human new words using only other words. To teach a parrot new words, you must present physical objects (if you want the words associated with things).
2) Ability to use single words or memorized phrases is not language, and ability to see a word on a page and say that word is not the complete definition of reading. Language has syntax. No animal to date has ever demonstrated the ability to learn or use syntactic constructions. From your description, your sister was not using syntax yet. (Look at it another way: if I taught you five Chinese phrases without giving you meanings, but you knew that certain phrases would get Chinese people to give you food if you said them at the right time of day, would you claim to speak Chinese? (Of course, that raises the question of just how many of these phrases you'd need to know before you did actually have a functional understanding of Chinese. Read about the "Chinese Room Argument" if you care.))
Squawk! Yes, this is Polly and I'd like to place an order for 10 tons of crackers!
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seumas.com
Indeed.
Grep is the coolest bird in the world. I like to check up on him when at work throughout the day. I've known this bird as long as they've had him, and he never ceases to amaze me.
He's a lot of fun in person too.
"I got a half gallon of Jack, and 2 dozen Ant Traps. I'm about to get wild." -me
From this article:
But does he know what the words mean? Hasn't he just learned to associate particular sounds with particular objects or places?
I hate this. What are words but sounds that we've associated with things? My mother taught me and my twin brother to read at age 2. My kid sister could read simple words at 7 months. We'd have guests over, and they'd look at my not-yet-walking sister reading (I was about 6 years old), and say it was cute, or funny, but many people refused to acknowledge that she was reading. "Oh, she's just associated the shapes of the letters on the flashcards with nouns and verbs," they'd say. "She's not actually reading."
If that's not reading, and if Alex doesn't know what those words mean, then I must have a fundamental misunderstanding of language. Which is quite possible.
-Waldo
Of course after they get bored with browsing, you know what comes next...
"Awk! Polly wanna be a Cracker!"
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Problem is, he's figured out how to access the root account, and even though he's disabled all the unused ports, changed all the default passwords, and installed the latest security patches...
I can't get him to perform regular backups!
I can see the fnords!
By Linus, I thought you were going to post the penis bird! Doctor Fun is much better - +1 funny.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Only the parrot doesn't stomp its feet. It says "four". Not much room for reading reactions there.
Ah, yes the Norwegian Blue... whats, uh, whats wrong with it.
I'll tell you whats wrong with it my lad... it's dead, thats whats wrong with it!
Its not dead, its pining for Yahoo
Look my lad, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I'm lookin at one right now
He's not dead, he's waiting for AOL to dialup
allright then, I'll let him use my cable modem
look! he surfed!
he didn't surf, that was you banging the keyboard
I didnt!
Look my lad, this parrot is definitely deceased, and when I pinged it not half an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of response was due to it being tired and lagged out after a long fragfest
31337 bird, the norwegian blue, beautiful rootkits!
the root kits don't factor into it my lad, it's stone dead
this parrot is no more
it has ceased to IRC
it's expired and gone to meet its Admin
bereft of pr0n it rests in peace
if you hadnt signed it on napster it would be freeing up a modem.
this, is an EX SURFER.
sorry, it had to be done
SQWAKK ... Polly wanna cracker ... Polly wanna be l33t
They don't need tons of memory or anything. They can write graffiti using their beak. I'm not a bird expert, so I'm not sure whether a color screen would even be beneficial to them. All parrots need is a Palm Pilot. Of course, they could also get some voice recognition too. Why do people always insist on reinventing the wheel whenever a new species decides to go on the internet.
And now we'll have to look forward to all those messages (ICQ, e-mail, etc) "helo, my name is polly and im a parrot. lets be penpals. write back to me. also, want to play diablo 2? i will kick your ass". Those are going to start getting annoying.
Napsters going to be flooded now with bird songs.
Damn dirty birds!
This is no more science than strapping moonshoes to your dogs paws and saying that you are scientifically experimenting with the posibilities of piloting a mission to Mars.
Those dunderheads who spend their careers (and tax money) teaching primates to 'speak' and 'communicate' through a massive specially developed lexicon expect us to fall for the same thing. They're so attached to their work and so biased -- and we never see it. We just think "aw, how cute! It's like people! It must be smart!".
How's this for 'scientific control'. Remove all prompting and all cues. Face the parrot and say " what is four plus five'. If the parrot can answer something like that without physical prompts of blocks or keys or balls, then maybe we have something. Even then, how do we know that the trainer and researcher haven't just unknowingly taught the parrot that the answer to 'four and five' is nine, without actual comprehension?
And this is my problem with this whole thing. To claim that they're intelligent without reasonably establishing that there is a level of comprehension as opposed to learned rote response.
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seumas.com
Mathematically, what is counting?
Counting is classifying sets into meta sets by the number of elements in them.
Human brains, and very likely most higher animal brains, have a primitive (in the comp sci sense of low level) operation to do this called "subitizing" - the ability to visually distinguish sets with small numbers of items. Combined with the ability to compare overall sizes of larger sets, this is a very useful for a foraging animal -- this tree has more fruit than that, this branch has four fruit and that three.
Counting in a conventional sense is to put a series of subsets in correspondence to an algorithmically defined sequence of words which represent the counting numbers. In other words, humans have come up with algorithms to use their verbal and logical skills to extend the ability to count beyond subitizing.
Almost any fairly intelligent animal should be trained to "name" numbers up to five or six. Some may well be trainable to execute an routine that allows them to "count" up through a memorized sequence of number names. The ability to create a completely open ended counting scheme, including the algorithm to generate and compare number names (you didn't memorize that 212345 comes after 212344 after all) -- that is what is really intelligent.
As far as comparing human children to animals on intelligence -- of course animals are going to perform better on many tests because they are more physiologically and psychologically mature. Very young human babies, for example, can't track objects with their eyes or focus. Furthermore, with older kids, long term cognitive reogranization often leads to short term losses of performance. You often see children drop the use of correct grammatical forms in favor of "incorrect" forms, as their grammatical algorithms are becoming more complex. Operationally defined, they become "less intelligent". As any parent knows, the real mystery is what is going on inside their little skulls.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
As primates age, they tend to get more agressive. Parrots may bite, but they don't generally break bones.
It all starts to make sense now.
Given one hour to live, the student replied: "I'd spend it with professor FP who can make an hour seem like a lifetime."
Actually Alex has been working on basic math but he's only 50% reliable so Dr. Pepperberg hasn't published her findings yet... You are being intellectually dishonest by not conceeding that maybe parrots do more than immitate.
With all the AOL users out there, creating the technology to allow parrots to use the Internet will raise the average IQ of the Internet community.
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
yeah!! i can see it now!! www.nofeathers.com or www.bare-beak.com heh :P
oh my, i'm lame
-motardo
A: Shouts Polly wants a cracker!
The last thing I need to have to deal with is coming home from the lab only to find the parrot, that I plan on buying, has downloaded 1 gig worth of parrot porn.
Or that he's ordered a mail order parrot from Africa with my credit card.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I'm sorry, I find this totally offensive.
To parrots.
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton
How does a parrot count items?
If he's anything like a good counting horse, he starts "counting" and reads the humans' reactions around him. If the animal pauses often, or moves a bit toward one thing, then another, in turn, instead of going directly to the correct choice, this is probably what's happening.
"How many fingers am I holding up?"
(hmm, he asked me something, I know that tone of voice, I COULD GET A CARROT OUT OF THIS!)
clop,
clop,
clop,
pause,
(he tensed up, I can't stop yet...)
clop,
pause
(he just relaxed! if I stop now, he'll give me the carrot!)
stop.
"That's a good horse, here's your carrot!"
I was just thinking -- has anyone performed any manner of scan on a parrot's brain when it is being asked various questions? We can map out what part of the brain in humans is stimulated and active in response to various stimuli. We know what areas of the brain are mostly active during certain cognitive functions. Perhaps we could do the same with the parrots. I'm not sure if this has been done or not, but I found nothing on a search of it.
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seumas.com
I presume the LCD screen comes from Viewsonic, and come with the requisite screen savers showing three parrots, each naked as a jaybird, in various tropical settings?
Unlike a turkey, who has a big body, and a tiny head, and is stupid.
Actually, only domestic turkeys are stupid. Wild turkeys are a different matter.
I worked on this project, so I can give you the real scoop. The web browser is simply proof of concept, what we were really going for was an IDE that could be used by most vertebrates.
It's simple really, a sufficient number of monkeys given sufficient time can produce working code. The problem is that between MS and AOL, we don't have anything close to a sufficient number of monkeys. A properly trained monkey can demand upwards of $80,000/yr in silicon valley. Traditionally monkey dominated industries like USWest customer service can't even afford them and have resorted to magic 8 balls.
By outsourcing development to non-primate species, we'll end the current labor crunch in IT.
This is truly revolutionary news.
--Shoeboy
Polly want a packet?
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