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Warwick Allison Of QT And KDE Fame
Konqi the Dragon points to this BeOpen interview with Warwick Allison of Troll Tech's Qt Library, writing: "Warwick is also a longtime KDE contributor with interesting things to say about GPL, QT Embedded, KDE, The Mythical Man Month, Distributed Development and scaling projects." If Warwick's words make you say "hmmm" (for whatever reason), you might also want to revisit earlier Slashdot stories about Embedded QT and Trolltech. [Updated noon GMT 10 July 2000 by timothy] Thanks to jdfox, who pointed out that I had perpetuated the misspelling of "Warwick" in the headline. Sorry, Warwick!
I think the efects (for the moment at least) will be greater on embedded devices, eg. ericson cellphones and the like running embedix or some such. Desktop Linux will eventually follow the market, I for one hope that desktops will be around at least untill wearables are eqaully powerfull, versatile, and most important - user programmable.
"Semper in excretum set alta variant"
Looks like Mister Allison isn't a big believer in business being able to make a profit from an OSS business model. I'm not sure this is a healthy thing for the OSS movement, especially when voiced by someone with some visibility like Warrick.
Now, i can't naysay how he sees thing. Currently the money is definitly more likley to come from a company hiring an Open Source programmer who's got a good track record writing free software, but I'm hoping (and betting on) ESR's services-based model. Allison says it breeds non-user firendly code. Hogwash. Only if your company or programming team is unscrupulous or lazy.
I am hoping that most leading OSS companies like VA and Red Hat don't fit into that particular category. We've all had enough of unscrupulous and lazy software companies. Or at least I have.
So yeah, Warrick is right about why he got a job, but by saying that's the way it should work, he may be pronouncing self-fulfilling prophesy.
I hope not. We all have too much to lose if OSS can't make the big leap to big business.
Beware the Whyte Wolf.
With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels...
You know, i'd like to see some hard numbers as to just how many people have actually purchased a Qt License from Troll Tech.. And, more specifically, if that number is sufficiently large enough to really warrant keeping Qt something other than GPL'ed.
The only thing standing in the way (as I see it) of KDE being the dominant desktop for Linux is this persistant, irritating, annoying, pointless debate over the nature of the Qt libraries. Its a boat anchor that has been dragged behind KDE for far, far too long. Get it over with, guys.
Its only by pure luck that GNOME development has been centered more on building pointless foo-foo options as of late, rather can concentrating on basic usability issues. Both efforts have boat anchors. One has to do with politics, the other has to do with direction.
Want KDE to win? Make Qt free. Game over.
Bowie J. Poag
Bowie J. Poag
How can you critisize when Anonymous ? If your not willing to take the (very small) risk involved in registering, by implication you can't complain. Those who register get to moderate posts, and have theirs marked up for their trouble. Anyway you are wrong, slashdot is about what interests the geek comunity period. It is not a news site for open source it is a comunity site for geeks, which is the primary reason why I am a regular. And I (like most geeks I think, at least timothy for one) found this rather intriguing.
Slashdot being a comunity, being registered is a litle like a green card, it is what makes you a part of the comunity and therefore gives you the right to complain about it. Right now you are like Al Bundy complaining about the French, your not one of us, and therefore your views don't count.
If you are a registered user, who posted that anonymously, then quite frankly sir, you are a coward.
"Semper in excretum set alta variant"
QT is QuickTime which is an apple product.
This however is Qt which is in esscence a component set used to make nice looking X applications.
Read the friendly interview.
What problems are you speaking of?
The only "problems" I know of are people arguing over perceived license conflicts, yet you implicitely compare KDE to Microsoft "throwing code at a project and no one knows what does what".
If that's what you intended, it's slanderous and completely uncalled for, if not, please don't phrase things that way...
-- KDE programmer and computer science student in Klagenfurt, Austria.
What I'm curious about is how many Windows licenses they sell and why there can't be a free software version for this platform also. Abiword developers have stated they prefer developing for both of these OS's together, and so I have to wonder if other devolopers would release more Windows free software if QT would make a Windows free edition (granted Abisource still wouldn't have gone with QT).
But perhaps it is not just money issues and there is code in this port that can't be made public. They don't seem to explain why in any of their FAQ's. (And no, I'm not interested in running X on top of Windows)
I actually agree with the sentiments of most of what you say, but whats this?:
"... is because there's a relatively small number (7) of people working on it"
Where on earth did you get that figure from? Have you ever read either the source code, the contributors list, or looked on lkml to see who submits patches? It is _far_ more than seven.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
What's up with BeOpen lately, anyway? I've heard tales (I think from FC, but I'm not exactly sure) of their President leaving and that the company's now being run by VC angels, with some of the staff starting to leave. And, of course (in the current Internet economy), difficulties in getting any new funding. The main reason this is worrisome is because Guido van Rossum and the rest of the core Python development team just moved to BeOpen not even two months ago, and there's already been a good deal of slippage of release dates for the already overdue Python 1.6. I'm really hoping that Guido and the crew didn't board a sinking ship. Anyone have any info on this?
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Look at the message, not the messenger.
(btw, I'm not the one whom you're replying
to)
You make some valid points, however my reason for encouraging registration has nothing to do with bigotry or statism.
I simply feel that one should have sufficient courage (I hope that is the right word) to stand by the statements you make. Untill recently I used my real e-mail address even, so anybody who would like to chalenge me can have a fair chance to do so, offsite if needed, however I found that having my e-mail address publically displayed has but once lead to me recieving an e-mail regarding a post, but did get me spammed, for which I no longer cares. The other matter which I claimed, is that in a comunity your standing is developed over time, and without identity there is no way of doing that. I am an anti-class person, yet interestingly if Linuz Torvalds were to post something here, contradicting and AC post, I think he would be a lot more believable thant the AC even if he happens to be wrong. People begin to asociate your name with the usual quality (or lack thereoff) off your posts. I believe Slashdot should add a feature to block post from certain people, so I can turn beerbrain and penisbird off permanently.
Sorry, I do believe that identiy need not imply class distinction, and that it is not class-distinction to reward continous quality with recognition, denying that is borderline socialism.
"Semper in excretum set alta variant"
When I read posts like yours I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at how religously people can take the decisions of other people.
What Warrick Allison states is a very valid opinion which myself and many others have had. I've often asked myself, "if I was a developer working for a company whose livelihood depended on being able to sell support for the software I wrote wouldn't I be less motivated to write easy-to-use and bug free code as someone who worked for a company whose lifeline wasn't based on selling support contracts?"
I've never been in that situation but from the attitudes of most OSS developers today usability isn't a key word they are interested in. Frankly I feel that the whole selling support concept only adds the current esoteric nature and general poor documentation of Open Source projects. Second question "Why spend time developing comprehensive training manuals, online help and documenting APIs if you are trying to get users to buy a support contract?". Laziness is a well documented trait of good programmers and bad ones as well, so why would one not expect that programmers would take the easy way out especially when it would be beneficial for their employer?
PS: Exactly what do we have to lose if OSS doesn't make the leap to big business? I'm in it cuz I like it not for the IPO money, aren't you? I hope you realize that VA Linux is a hardware company that sells relatively overpriced servers which has nothing to so with making money on supporting OSS. VA Linux subsidizes its OSS forays by marking up their server prices, which to me seems like an alternate business model to ESRs.
PPS: This isn't a troll, if you disagree, post a response instead of moderating this down and making this place seem more like a mad house for raving zealots instead of a forum for rational discussion.
No one needs me to tell them you're an idiot, though. All one needs to do is read your response to the first post of this article.
Your self-fellating babble about geeks would be more appropriate in the UF "geek groupie" forum. (In other words, you're lonely and came to Slashdot for acceptance, but have nothing to contribute. That's what the UF forum is for.) Get the fuck over yourself. You sound like Jon Katz, minus a hundred IQ points.
Can you back up that Bundy/Slashdot analogy, by the way? I'd really like to know what kind of bizarre logic comes up with something like that. I didn't even think people that stupid could use Windows.
(wink.)
And if you were a more observant luser, you would realize that talking about Linux and Open Source that way only makes you look worse. You should thank me for pointing this out to you now, before you make a bigger fool of yourself.
Now, please, I beg you to retort. Ignorance amuses me. You fell for two trolls within fifteen minutes, so I expect your reply to be especially amusing.
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I like to watch.
It is encouraging to see a success story about making money in the open source world. I believe that the industry should move towards open source as much as possible, and I completly understand how companies withstand the urge to go open source.
I have planned on going the same route that the author took in my software developement career. I am planning on doing some development work on some open source projects as an experience and resume builder so that I can fill in the part that talks about experience on my resume. It is a perfect place for new programmers to gain useful experience programming, but I have concerns about a market that is totally open source.
For all products to be open source is scarey. Now I know that open source doens't necesarily mean free. It means letting everyone know what your software is doing, possibly fixing it for their own use. This type of use is great. But what should a company do if they are making some true innovations. Release that software for the world to look at.
For example, Oracle may or may not have the most scalable and fastest database. But lets say that their programmers have developed some new methods that enable there database server to be faster and more scalable than the competition. How do the open source gurus claim that opening that software up would help Oracle. This is precisely the part that I have yet to understand. It is the same as patenting a new device. It lets the inventor or inventing company protect there investment for awhile so that even doing the research to begin with is worth it. The patent gives the garantee that the innovation is protected.
The article didn't help clarify my view of the issues with open source either. There method of dealing with the problem is by having some products open source and free and other products closed source and for sale. This doesn't really answer the question of how to deal with open source software and make money, unless this happens to be the final solution.
For example, Microsft opens the source to DirectX, IE, etc.. but keeps the source on NT and Office. Of course, this isn't really the core of what they do, it would be like giving out some toys, but not the real thing. Do people think this is the answer to the open source questions, or do people really think everything can go open source?
cp -R
Sorry to be pedantic, but may I point out that the Slashdot article copies BeOpen's title errors: his name is actually spelt "Warwick", like the town. :)
And, er, like the singer, if that helps.
Thanks.
-
j
> The only thing standing in the way (as I see it) of KDE being the dominant
/. by people who should know better than to bite the hand that feeds it. Because, next time, maybe a company will say "fuck those Linux people, why should we let them use our code when the last people who let them use theirs got raped every five minutes by complaints about not using the GPL; let them write their own stuff." TrollTech has been very nice to the Linux community by giving something of theirs which they had no obligation to give; they deserve to be treated nicely in return. What will make them more likely to GPL Qt, a nice reaction from a bunch of idealists trying to build a software utopia, or constant attacks by crazy zealots trying to cut a swath through the software community like a bunch of Huns sacking Rome? Try to be objective, and see how such behaviour appears to non-FSF types, and you'll realize that more is gotten with honey than with insults.
> desktop for Linux is this persistant, irritating, annoying, pointless
> debate over the nature of the Qt libraries. Its a boat anchor that has been
> dragged behind KDE for far, far too long. Get it over with, guys.
And just who is it that whines and complains like spoilt children, thus causing "this persistent, irritating, annoying, pointless debate over the nature of the Qt libraries"? It's not the Qt people, and it's not the KDE people, it's a small group of the more zealous folk who refuse to use pragmatism when they've had a perfectly good library handed to them. No one at TrollTech had to make anything free for any use under any license; they were nice enough to let the Linux community, the KDE folks in particular, use their library for free, and for that they get continually villified and crucified here on
I respect the FSF and RMS; I agree with 99% of what RMS says. However, I cannot agree that alienating people by attempting to force them to accept the GPL on their own works is a good thing. No matter the ends, no matter how positive, there can be no excuse whatsoever for employing the same sorts of tactics which unscrupulous corporations like Microsoft employ. It is unscrupulous to try to force or coerce or intimidate people into giving up their work; it is commendable to try to educate, to recruit, to the Free Software ideology.
And as for the notion that licensing issues are what keeps KDE from being the dominant desktop, I don't buy it. Most end users, and the majority of the Linux community, aren't hung up so inextricably and single-mindedly on a very minor licensing issue--for all intents and purposes, Qt is good open-source free software. Not Free by the FSF's definition, but free in the more general open-source sense which divides RMS and the zealots from the moderates. In other words, the average user doesn't care about the Qt licensing issue, and the average company which puts together the CDs that those people will install, also doesn't care. And they don't have to care because it's a minor issue, and second for both the average user and the average company to the consideration as to which desktop is easier to use and more productive. That's KDE right now, though that could change with the next GNOME release or two. But, it's silly to think that the licensing issue is really holding KDE back, because it's not--it'll ward off some developers, but they'll have enough to not worry about it; I haven't seen any scarcities yet, have you? And as I said, the end user just wants something which is easy to use. That's what more people around here should keep in mind, because most people around here would like to see Linux become a dominant OS replacing mostly the need for Windows, Netware, etc., not shrink back into obscurity, and the more people engage in holy wars the further away that good future gets. Always remember that in any holy war, there are good people on both sides, and heavy casualties all around.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
I actually find the UID/l337ness correlation quite interesting. For instance, while I am the first to admit that I have not been here long, I must look pretty l337 to someone who just got his UID, which is probably around 210,000. But I'm nowhere near as l337 as someone from below 50k. And the first 1,000 UIDs are practically godlike. LOL.
(Hmmm, "datadictator" called himself a "regular" in a previous post, yet he's only been here about sixth months. But we already knew he was a poseur, right?)
Non-AC's that diss AC's for being AC's are probably my biggest Slashdot pet-peeve (yes, even outranking ** syringe!). I used to have a very long rant about this in my user info. Maybe I should put it back.
Keep on postin', noble AC...
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I like to watch.
But users of Qt and KDE should realize that the Troll Tech QPL license is bad for open source and for Linux. If Linux had been licensed like Qt, it would have never caught on. And if KDE succeeds at displacing other Linux desktops, it will largely spell the end of Linux as a competitive, open source client desktop operating system: if you have to pay Troll Tech under the conditions they require you to pay, as a developer, you might as well go with BeOS or Windows, pay less money, get more development tools, and (in the case of Windows) cover a much bigger market segment.
However, I disagree with your statement that "Troll Tech has been very nice to the Linux community". Troll Tech was merely business savvy and opportunistic. Adoption of Qt by KDE was one sweet deal for the company: they made software available to people who otherwise wouldn't pay for it anyway, they got a huge user community, lots of naive university students started hacking free software in it, and they got lots of feedback, bugfixes, and improvements, and adoption by several big companies in return. Without the exposure from KDE, Qt would have remained just one of many mediocre, tool-poor cross platform toolkits with a tiny user community. Troll Tech's "donation" paid handsomely for them. The open source community has nothing to excuse for or be thankful for.
Altogether, I agree: don't ask Troll Tech to free Qt, or KDE to change their license. Instead, just don't use those systems. Develop and support truly free desktop software instead.
When was the last time you heard of anyone being prosecuted for copying KDE? Last I heard KDE was on this here CD-ROM I got free in a magazine. And oh, I see KDE on this here FTP server.
Tell me exactly how it is that KDE is illegal to copy, and how it is that TrollTech has been forcing KDE sites to be taken down. Tell me about all the people who are4 being sued by TrollTech for hosting/distributing/copying KDE. Then, tell me when you've grown up. If TrollTech's license has such a big hole in it, then it's really very smart of the Linux crowd to start annoying them by denouncing them and their license, now isn't it? Brilliant strategy: anger the people who can start destroying all Linux useage of Qt, if that hole does indeed exist. that's a much better strategy than being nice to them and not denouncing them and pissing them off. Nothing personal, don't take this as an insult or flame or flamebait, but I must scream now or my head will explode...MORONS! IT'S NOT SMART TO PISS PEOPLE OFF WHO WERE NICE ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU SOMETHING, BUT CAN STILL TAKE IT BACK!!! There, I feel better now. See what I mean about not pissing them off? If such a loophole does exist, it would be smart to be nice to them and try to persuade, not to denounce and make them feel like yanking the distribution rights back. However, I'm not convinced that such a loophole exists. I'm looking at the Qt license now, and don't see anything like that; could it perhaps be propaganda from the extremists? I think so. Otherwise, kindly point out where in the license this hole exists. I don't see it.
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, *The Annals*
That's OK, there are companies in this market, like IBM, HP, and Compaq, who do have a strong economic incentive to make Linux usable, so they can sell more hardware. They'll fund projects like KDE and be responsible for the real progress in usability.
One part of this article has actually been on my mind for a little while now. How do you base a business around selling a service for the product you sell and still encourage usability? If we were to take RedHat for example, it would seem that an ideal market for them would be tons of folks with RH Linux running, and making it as hard as hell for them to figure it out on their own. Is this really a good model for Linux to adopt in the long run?
Certainly, no matter how many help files are included or intuitive features implemented into any OS there will still need to be some type of support structure. It just concerns me that ease of use would actually be contrary to a business model.
Another real quick example would be going back to Warrick's comments on Sendmail. My personal experience with Sendmail is limited at best, but from what I've seen there's a ton of stuff in there. I'd guess that it would take me several hours, if not days, to get this up and running properly being that I have no previous experience with it. On the other hand, I have set up IMail* on an NT Server for my company which I had up, running, and configured in about 20 minutes. That's 20 minutes without reading over any manuals or having any previous experience with it other than a basic understanding of POP and SMTP.
I don't mean to be picking on Sendmail as much as I am, especially considering it most likely has a lot more functionality than something like IMail. Thing is, IMail has a financial incentive to provide ease of use, where as Sendmail actually would lose money making things easier.
My apologies for not providing better examples here. The point I'm really trying to get at is whether or not selling software as a service rather than a product is a viable option for the future. Will it prove itself to be good for the computer industry as a whole? Is it still too early to tell, seeing as how the Linux community is just now really starting to focus on usability?
* I still use IMail as my company's E-Mail server after installing it a couple of years ago. Great stuff for doing mail on NT, and at $1000 it's actually one of the cheaper ones out there for that platform. Very stable and fast.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
I tell you why this is relevent.After moving into my luxorious ant and minority infested apartment in downtown Indianapolis, I decided to try and get DsL, but to no avail. I guess they don't offer a fast connection to us "members of the darker race" till the white suburbian fucks get it first. A way to keep a race unenlightened and ignorant? Cultural genocide? This leads to my major point. As you might know me from TRoLLaXoR's wonderful stories, I am good ol' ERRoR 808. Although, what you might not know about me is that I am a virgin. You see TRoLLaXoR's stories usually deal with gratuiutous gay sex. But they are just stories, and I have been saving myself for that special someone. But alas!! I have given up that dream. I am now auctioning off my virginity on ebay. That's right, you can have my clean, shaven, and pure body. HERE is the link! Now, we gotta set some ground rules first, buddies. Most importantly, NO dirty kikes or hairy deigos are allowed to vote. Hell, even if you're clean and shaved you still can't vote. But don't get me wrong here. I'm not a racist, because I ENCOURAGE niggers to bid. I'll even give them a $50 credit. It's all about the affirmative action, kids! There's one thing I haven't told you. Well, I don't know what most people consider being a virgin is, but I consider it not ever having sex WILLINGLY. I feel this way because when I was a small boy, my favorite nun raped me with a strap-on. It might have been wet, messy, satisfying, and gratuitous but by no means was it consciously willing. OK folks, I gotta go, but remember to act fast! There's no telling when ebay might shut this gem down. If they do you can still contact me and we'll do business.
Warrick's statements regarding open source and selling services creates an incentive to produce a complicated and difficult to use product is compelling. Is this a side effect of the GPL software business model? I think Warrick's examples such as sendmail are pretty good in showing just how difficult an open source product can be. To me this in one of the biggest questions that need to be answered before the "open source business model" can make into the mainstream.
Sorry about that, and thanks for the heads up. Damn, wish I'd seen your comment earlier, too!
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Your first question is easy: STL isn't supported on all compilers and OS platforms correctly yet. Why let such a trival thing like dependance on STL be a show-stopping trip up for cross platform independent code?
"But gcc supports it!"
Unfortunately, gcc isn't installed everwhere nor are the underlying support libraries.
On the other hand, simple C++ features seem to be supported almost everywhere. I have no problem with abandoning nifty STL features to insure stability and correctly working platform independent code.
Also, Qt Free Edition will ALWAYS be free. Repeat with me. Qt FREE EDITION WILL ALWAYS BE FREE. If Trolltech gets bought out and stops developing Qt, the KDE team can release it under the BSD license. Thats what the Free Qt Foundation is for... 2 members from Trolltech, 2 members from the KDE team, the KDE team having the tiebreaker vote.
Some of you guys are suggesting that Trolltech release Qt under the LGPL. Currently, Qt is Trolltechs only product. You want them to starve just so you can have your "freedom"? We already have it. QPL fits the definition of free software.
THE MORAL OF THIS LESSON: If you don't like it, then don't use it. Bitching about its license doesn't change the fact it's the best damn desktop environment out there.
-- We should kill all the intolerant people in the world.
I said "regular" as in I keep coming back, in truth I have been reading slashdot for about two years, I never posted anonymously, when I felt I knew the place well enough I got myself a login name and started posting.
And I repeat, I do not have any problem with anonymous posting, it is everbodies right, but I won't take anybody seriously if he want's to critisize the choice of stories, and not have the guts to get a login name first.
And I stand by my earlier statement, if you have a username, and you make certain posts anonymous because you don't want to get blamed/flamed if people dissagree, that is textbook cowardice.
Now I am sorry if I made people angry, for one thing because nobody bothered to read what I was saying. This is turning into a flame war, I don't think I'll bother to respond to further flames, as has often been said, I have a right to my own opinion, and at least I have the guts to stick my nick next to it. If anybody really want's my e-mail address, he can figure it out by following my URL, but spambots can't
"Semper in excretum set alta variant"
(Assuming anybody still cares).
No, TrollTech is running the Linuxport of some little off-the-wall browser called Opera...maybe you've heard of it?
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
...but I posted to it anyway :)