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Eliminating Notebook Keyboards
Wordman writes "A story on Yahoo indicates that Apple (working with Wacom) has plans to provide pen-based computing in place of/in addition to keyboard input on future power books. The story quotes an unnamed source saying "The idea is to do away with the keyboard." The scheme would include the handwriting recognition system from Newton OS 2.x (which, contrary to popular rumors, is excellent). The "erase" abiliy of Wacom tablets would also be supported." I dunno - I really do find a keyboard a wonderful way to get things done - better than my handwriting, that's for sure. Thanks to Matthew for pointing out the original article at ZD-Net.
This would not be a good idea in my mind. A lot of creative types prefer the powerbook to any x86 offering, and not having a keyboard is going to slow their productivity. Unless there is some super effective voice recognition software that Apple has not told us about, this concept will fail.
I know a lot of people that could never consider a non-keyboard laptop. Who ever heard of writing 60 words per minute...or more? 60's just how fast I type. I've seen good typists go to 180 wpm. There's no possible way to get that with a stylus...
Pen input is a lot slower than keyboard input. I have a Wacom tablet which I use all the time for drawing, but it's much slower than the keyboard for the web or (especially) typing/programming.
What I WOULD like to see is a phantom keyboard.. a touch sensitive (or proximity-sensitive) overlay on the screen which would fade away when your hands weren't near it. It would also be kind of cool if you could type in the air (holograms) or on a nearby surface, but I think most of us would probably need the tactile feedback.
Lots of people are raising issues, like "I won't be able to do CAD or Fluid Dynamics calculations or write kernel patches, if I don't have a keyboard!"
People... this is a laptop! Not the desktop. Most people I know only get a laptop after they have a non-mobile workstation they're happy with. (A few students, maybe, are unable to afford both and decide for the portability. Avoid a keyboardless laptop, if this means you.)
Plug a keyboard in the side if you need to type directly, or hot-synch it with your desk machine. Use it as you would use a clipboard. Collect data in the field. Browse the w^4 [wireless world-wide web]. Use it to preview your digital camera's results.
For the occasional passphrase or a few longhand commands, bring up a half-screen touch-sensitive keyboard, just like the tiny ones available on smaller devices.
Personally, I don't believe in "wrist rests" lining the keyboard, and most of today's laptops put the pointing device (pad, ball, nub) near the thumbs. I'd rejoice if I could return to laptop designs that delete that extra two inches. I'd like a flip-cover instead of a keyboard, or a case-hardened screen that didn't even need a flip-cover, most of all.
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As someone with experience in this field (I worked at GRiD Systems with Jeff Hawkins before he went to Palm), I can say that no matter how fast or how accurate the handwriting recognition, it is an order of magnitude slower than a keyboard. When I was at GRiD I worked on numerous laptops with built-in digitizing tables behind the display like what Apple is describing.
This type of interface has only limited usage for real computing. For PDAs, it's fine, but for real work (i.e. word processing, etc.) it is terrible. While at GRiD we focused on certain vertical markets where handwriting was a benifit. Basically the software would contain the equivilent of paper forms which the user could fill out. The idea was to minimize the amount one would have to write.
Besides, handwriting recognition is horribly difficult to decode. Think about trying to distinguish between a n'n' and an 'r', for example, or an 'a' and a 'd'. The main reason Jeff Hawkins developed grafitti was to make it far easier to decode the letters. He tried to push it at GRiD, but they weren't interested. GRiD is now nowhere to be seen.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
1) The Newton's handwriging recognition is the coolest thing I've ever seen. It's excellent.
2) Pen based computers can be really cool.. and do a great many things for you.. in many ways, being better than a computer.
3) A laptop, however, is not what I have in mind.
I bought a laptop so I could do the *same* things I do on my desktop while on the road. I can play games, code, do everything.. I *want* a keyboard.
From a tablet, portable application point of view, pen-based is great.
I do understand your point, I just don't think that such a device would be viable in today's market. Considering that one can purchase PDA's (read: Palm & Handspring) that cost only a couple of hundred dollars that can cover most tasks that I can think of that a device like this is suited to. I cannot see someone paying $1000+ for a large, fast processor, big hard drive, big viewscreen, etc.
To counter your complaint about switching between mouse and keyboard, I think we would be better off pushing an easy to use one-handed keyboard. I believe there is such a device available on the commercial market. I do know that an F-16 pilot has such a device that can be used to type one-handed with his/her left hand and fly with the right hand. I think it may be difficult to master such a device, but prolly no more so than the qwerty keyboard.
And I think my point still stands. Advances in technology can make once impractical devices practical.
I'll agree that writing is slower than typing, but only for those who can type. And most people can't type. But just because Go and the others failed is no reason to assume that pen based input will always fail.
And as was pointed out, this is in addition to not in place of a keyboard. I can think of a number of applications where writing is the prefered input method. And while I can type faster than I can write when I am typing my thoughts, I can take notes much faster with a pen and paper in meetings or classes.
Finally, I am a bit skeptical about your lack of pen use. I use pens all the time, for jotting notes, signing documents, giving out my phone number, email address, street address, and plenty of other things that don't make sense with a computer.
Steve M
Actually there was a group that made a partial working Analytical Engine. I don't have the reference handy but I do recall that it made the cover of Scientific American.
And yes, no company would use that technology to make a computer. But that wasn't my point.
My point was that advances in technology make once impractical devices practical. Leonardo DaVinci had designs for a helicopter. But with the technology of his day there was no way to make it work. Today we have better technology. And helicopters.
And today we have computers.
I don't know if Apple is even working on pen input or if they can pull it off. But they almost had it with the last Newton (although I have no direct experience with that device). But I see no reason to claim that just because a technology failed in the past it will fail forever (expect of course in those cases where some physical law is violated, thus no perpetual motion machines).
I hope that they do pull it off, as I would weclome another input option.
Steve M
However, a notebook computer that operated as a keyboardless slate would be excellent. Have you ever tried using a regular notebook while standing (and, no, not standing over a desk on which the notebook is sitting)? It's nearly impossible; you have to balance the thing in one palm while doing the old hunt-n-peck with the other hand. A notebook with a detachable keyboard (or, preferably, one that folded back behind the screen, a little like that high-end WinCE one a while back) would be great for quick jotting and note-taking, like writing on a clipboard. It would also make diagramming a piece of cake. The mouse is a lousy input device for drawing, IMHO. I use a drawing tablet for some of my work, and going back and forth between that and the keyboard is a pain in the ass.
Pen and voice input could definately be used more and better than they currently are, especially in conjunction with a keyboard. There have been so many times I've wanted to have a little Graphitti floater on-screen so I can execute the occasional keystroke when I'm using a tablet. Tablets, however, are almost exclusively seen as computer illustrator's tools and support for them has matched that preconception. If Apple puts a decent pen-based input device in a general-purpose notebook, there will potentially be a lot more interest in developing for non-keyboard, non-mouse input interfaces.
Yeah, and didn't that Babbage guy try to make a computer. And after years of work and plenty of money wasted there was very little to show for it.
I can't imagine that any company would think it would succeed now.
Steve M
is here.
The ironic part is that someone made this into a little Newton movie, complete with sound, available for free download...
Very very fun to see Palm Pilot owners' faces drop when I showed them a movie making fun of the Newton, on my MessagePad, playing with full motion and sound (albeit in 4-bit greyscale), back in 1997.... Got yr 200 MHz StrongARM lovin', right here.
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That would solve the problems created by spilling hot coffee all over the keyboard and ruining it.. Oh.. Wait..
air and light and time and space
It sounds great, and would be for word processing, but consider applications that are mapped to use keyboards... 3d Modelling, Spredsheets, hell even games, all would have to be re-written if there wasn't a keyboard. Heck even your OS, web browser and email client would need re-writing... no Slashdot surfing for one.
Still a good idea, and one step closer to having the Newton back.
Isn't this just sort of a web tablet in disguise? Without a keyboard there isn't any need for the traditional two-paned laptop. Instead you'll just have an LCD screen used for both input and output. I've been hearing about these things for years but have yet to see one that really works and is here now - if there was, I'd buy it. Nothing like reading Slashdot on the shitter :)
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Typing is faster than longhand writing, and much faster than writing in print. However, voice recognition could be faster than either typing or writing.
Although voice recognition is still weak (I've used IBM's ViaVoice to write letters), it's getting closer to general usability, for much text-writing.
It will never be popular with programmers, since we need two-dimensional control of our text. But for the average Joe, a way to point where to add text, and voice recognition software, would be an excellent input combination.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. Or a juggernaut.
One, you don't know that a computer couldn't recognize your handwriting than a person could. Unlikely, of course, but possible.
Two, I grant that you prefer to type on a keyboard. If you can't use the writing pad type controller, then don't. Same for everyone else that needs a keyboard.
But don't read more than is available; they are working on writing recognition to supplement and enhance the current interface, and perhaps change it, but not to replace it. They will add it to Wacom tablets, which at best replace mice; then you don't have the problem of context switching between mice and keyboards. This doesn't replace the keyboard unless you choose to replace the keyboard yourself!
As for the GUI for DOS... yes. For people who can't use keyboards, but need mice, joysticks, voice, and eye tracking. They need something to point to. They can't type! As for high speed Internet Access? No, of course we don't need it-we want it!
Apple has no need to keep the needs of all computer users in mind; only those who use them, buy them, or have them. They don't have to cater to the blind, the deaf, or the stupid, but they do, and good for them.
I hope I haven't just responded to a troll, but you get the benefit of the doubt cuz you have a user name and handle!
Bye!
GPL Deconstructed
But if you do that, you lose the advantages of a keyboard:
you can enter data faster
easier to enter data if you don't have a stable surface - ie. you only have to concentrate pressing a key as opposed to forming a stroke
you can look at the screen while you type on a keyboard as opposed to looking at a small section on your screen where you are scribbing a letter, then checking the main screen to make sure that it correctly identified what you typed.
you can't lose your keyboard like you can lose your pen :)
It depends on what the user uses the computer for.
Geeks use their computers for everything. We even sleep with our computers and sell the pictures to.. oh wait, never mind. But we use 'em for hacking, web surfing, keeping track of our Babylon 5 Action Figure collection, or whatever. You know when Brooke Shields said no one gets between her and her jeans? Well, that's us and our computers.
Some people aren't like that. I suspect that was the whole point of Apple's "For the Rest of Us" slogan. I know people who use a computer all day just for one single application. They bought it to run that app, and that's all they do with it.
Now, are you telling me you can't think of any applications where pen or voice control would be appropriate? A lot of people thought the Newton was pretty cool, and I know some people who use Dragon's speech recognition software for transcription. Um, maybe, just maybe Steve Jobs wants a piece of their wallets? I hardly find that to be in FUCKING MORON territory.
Do you think he won't be able to sell it? Do I have to remind you of the fact that the "five fruity flavors" angle actually worked?!
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
This seems like the right course of action for apple to take. Thier whole business is based on simplicity. Doing away with the keyboard just gives them point and click and print/handwrite (most likely graphity though).
Thier Notebooks are becoming more and more like palm pilots. And consequently Palm Pilots are becoming more and more like notebooks.
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
Well, I have had a messagepad 2100 (the very last newton) since spring of 1998, and I must say it's very good. I actually had to chase around town, and when I picked it up I was told that I got the last one in the lower mainland, and if I hadn't shown up that day someone else would have gotten it.
And they're surprisingly fast. I actually take all of my class notes on it. Once I taught it a chemical engineering vocabulary, which took less than two weeks, it kept up just fine. I'd estimate a very low error rate, definitely less than 10% and possibly less than 5%, and nearly all errors could be fixed by a quick tap, tap 'try letter-by-letter recognition' that didn't slow me down much at all. And in many ways it was faster than taking the notes on a keyboard would have been: the profs draw a lot of diagrams, and quite frankly, 'tap, tap I'm in drawing mode, draw the picture, tap, tap I'm back in writing mode, keep making notes' is a heck of a lot faster than trying to make those diagrams with a keyboard and mouse. Selecting and moving items around - text or drawings - was so easy. I used that feature a *lot* for annotating the drawings and diagrams.
The two weeks I spent teaching it a chem.eng vocabulary didn't slow me down in class, either, because I told it not to convert the text, just to save the images of my handwriting for later conversion. After class I would go through and convert it to text, fixing all the errors. Once it learned the words, though (the newton works on a wordlist then a letter-by-letter scheme) I didn't have to do that anymore.
And it reads *my* handwriting, not the handwriting that the makers programmed into it. It's bigger than a palm, but it has a bigger screen, which I think is worth it. It may not fit into my pocket, but that's why I have a 'shoulder holster' for it (g)
I love my newton. In case you haven't guessed already.
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd
I could tell you things about Peter Pan
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd
I could tell you things about Peter Pan
Or the Wizard of Oz...
I spend most of my time with one hand on my mouse and the other with my chin on it. Sure, when I'm typing this response I'm using the keyboard, but the periods where I'm typing stuff are getting smaller and further apart
I'm not anti-keyboard. I bought the wonderful folding keyboard for the Palms. In fact, that's where I decided that a pen-based system with a removable keyboard is particularly convenient...
If there's any truth to this story, then you can rest assured that Apple won't replace all keyboards in their powerbook lines. Far more likely is that this is just the product that'll fill the 6th slot in apple's hardware plan, separate from powerbooks. For years, there've been rumors about apple producing a tablet device, and the technology and the prices are finally getting to the point where they just might do it.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Do we really need a GUI for DOS? For some folks, emphatically yes! Otherwise, the computer would overwhelm them and they would never benefit from the many things it can do. For those who don't need the GUI and had all their needs met with command line DOS, they certainly have the option to continue to use just DOS.
Progress is great! If it is truly progress, it makes human lives better.
The quote that "the idea is to get rid of the keyboard" did _not_ come from Apple. It came from a source "familar with Apple's plans" which could mean just about nothing.
I doubt that apple would scrap keyboards on all of their powerbooks, at most they may offer one or two models without and add handwriting recognition to the rest.
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The keybord saved my life
That right, you heard me I said "The keybord saved my life", and while I mean it in a "that night the DJ saved my life" kinda way rather than a "the doctor saved your life in there" kinda way, it is never the less the truth.
I'm mildly dyslexic, I have difficulty with spelling, and remembering lists, but as a youth my main problem was with handwritting. The teachers thought I was stupid. The kids picked on me, and I was heading directly to the dole queue (do not pass go do not collect £200).
Then my parents bought me my first computer, a ZX80. Hardly CPU power, hardly a keyboard worth using. But I did. Boy did I use it. I got tested, I got help, my teachers saw my potential. I passed English, thanks to the keybord.
I was just dyslexic. Many people have much worse problems that that with writing. Like no arms, for example.
Ironicly I now use a PalmV as an organiser, and can actually code using the graffiti, but thats a matter of practice and detemination. It was the leg up I neaded. The alternative. The choice. Different input devices for different people.
I think I've made my point. And a couple of extra ones as well. :)
Thad
Thad
This reminds me of a April Fools joke that went around many years ago (1993, 94?) that Apple was going to completely replace the keyboard with the mouse.
Instead of typing with the keyboard, you would have a graphical wheel on the screen that you would drag to rotate. Rotating the wheel would scroll through the characters. When you got to the one you wanted, you clicked.
I mean, seriously, where do they take an annoucement about handwriting recognition for the Mac becoming availible and suddenly translate that into "Apple is doing away with the keyboard"
That's silly.
> was that a Haiku?
No, a Senryu
A Haiku's first line must reference a season.
Senryu is a general poem that follows the 5-7-5 format.
So you can write as fast as you would write on paper. For many people, that's faster than they can type.
The Newton failed because the software was so advanced that the available technology to run it was slow, expensive, large, and heavy. The Palm was a serious step backwards but it ran acceptably in available, inexpensive, and small/lightweight hardware. Now that there has been a few iterations of Moores law, the Newton stuff is poised to come back.
Burris
Back in November of '93 Apple actually had workingprototype units of 'tabletized' Powerbook Duos. They got to the hardware seed phase, but pulled back when the press was having a field day with Newton's handwriting recognition.
The recognition actually imporved a great deal with NewtonOS 2.0, not that the world cared or took the time to notice. Now that other PDAs have failed similarly in 'off the shelf' recognition, and rely on letter-by-letter (Graffiti) or keyboard entry, the average consumer accepts that handwriting recognition isn't effortless and is prepared to learn a little to make it work better.
I'm just sad that it took so long to get to this point. I wonder if they'll bring back the Newton in another 5 years...
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
you need to take notes in class. Here's an example...
A friend of mine, who was a senior applied physics major last year (he has since graduated) had one of those very, very small laptops. He took the laptop to all of his classes where he needed to take notes that didn't include formulas (psych, for example). I asked him why he didn't use the notebook for his other classes, and he said, basically, that the notebook was incredibly impractical for taking down equations. Honestly, when you go to lecture and it consists of 1-2 hours of taking down, analyzing, and deriving equations, a notebook computer is worthless. If they could manage to have their handwriting recognition software so that it would recognize equations and convert them into a usable file format (LaTeX maybe? or mathematica?) then it would be an incredible boon to engineering and science students everywhere.
Moller
You can't argue that a key "tap" is slower than the strokes of writting a letter. But, there is a generation between the 50's and the 90's that didn't really have the same "touch typing" classes in school.... And... in the 50's it was High School, in the 90's it was grade school.
Your never going to replace the keyboard... Your only going to be able to refine it (twidler?).
Did we really need fire? did we really need the wheel? I was happy back in the good old days with OOG the open source caveman hunting and gathering my food and eating it raw, man life was good. Why dont we start a nuclear war so we can go back to the good old days.
Has anyone seriosuly compared the time it takes to write something via hand writing recognition (i.e. on a Palm) vs. the time it takes with a keyboard?
Is there anyone that actually writes faster without a keyboard? I don't see why this is a feature other than possibly the size and durability of the laptop. I'm also sure a regular keyboard can function with far more dirt and debris on it than a tablet can....
In the auditorium, Skinner speaks to the children.
Skinner: Children, the times they are a-becoming quite different. Test scores are at an all-time low, so I've come up with these academic alerts. [hold stack of cards] You will receive one as soon as your grades start to slip in any subject. This way your parents won't have to wait until report card time to punish you.
Martin: How innovative. I like it!
Kearney: Hey Dolph, take a memo on your Newton: beat up Martin.
[Dolph writes "Beat up Martin" which the Newton translates as "Eat up Martha"] Bah! [throws Newton]
Martin: [being bonked on the head] Ow!
-j
-sigs of the world unite
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do. Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access? No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either.
Yeah I need a GUI to view and high-speed internet access to get my massive fix of asian bondage goat porn. Without either the would would be a rough place to live...
-- iCEBaLM
Don't think "wordprocessing" when you see this. Think Photoshop / Graphic design -- a portable tablet-sized device an artist can take on the road and draw on directly, instead of having to hook up a separate tablet. We already have tablets with a built in lcd screen that the artist draws on directly. Apple is just taking the logical step of wrapping a computer around it and updating the operating system not to require any additional input devices.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
No, I'm telling you I don't think the technologies are developed well enough that Apple feels that everyday people can use them reliably and have them Just Work, reliably, 100% of the time (or near enough that it doesn't matter). Maybe Apple R&D has been putting in the hours necessary for this to happen. If they have, and Steve is able to pull this out of his ass at a MacWorld keynote before everybody else is doing it, it'll be yet another home run for Apple.
I'm just skeptical.
As I read through most of these comments it seems to me that most of them are things like 'who can't type faster on a keyboard then HWR?' and 'the keyboard will never die!!'
I think you are all missing the point here. Apple isn't going to stop including keyboards with all of their products, they just might come out with something that doesn't have a keyboard (like the newton, or the palm, but bigger) is it possible that there are people out there that might want to buy somehting like that? yes there is. maybe you don't but, who cares?
I think the ibook screen is too small and it is not expandable enough, so you know what I did? I bought the computer that was right for me, a powerbook. I didn't write Apple (or slashdot) and bitch about the ibook not being right for me, cuz they have products that do cater to my needs. I know people who love their ibooks, and they dont want anything more. I guarantee there are people out there who do not like the keyboard, who don't need that extra functionality for whatever they are using their machine for, and would get along just fine with a tablet-based system.
perhaps whenever apple leaks (or announces) something that sounds like change (oh my gosh!) you can all sit back and think; 'well, i dont htink I would like that, but someone might' instead of assuming that everyone on the planet is like you and would rather drive a six-inch spike through their foreheads then give up their keyboards...
sheesh..
(BTW I used to have a newton2000 and the HWR rocked)
Another variant of this is from Wacom. They have a line of their graphics tablets that have a LCD screens behind them so an artist can draw right on the display. I don't think they do handwriting recognition, though.
Burris
At the gym I go to, there are computers with touchscreens over some of the exercise bikes, and you can 1-finger type on them. It's a dog-slow way to enter anything, but fine for web browsing once you're past the first real URL, at least given the speed you read the web while biking.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
There's no way I could ever put up with handwriting recognition as my sole source of input.
I can type about 5-10 times faster than I can write normally, and that's without caring if anybody besides myself can read it. If I'm writing on my Palm, and care to have a certain level of accuracy, I'm reduced to less than 10 words per minute.
That's just not acceptable for a laptop computer. Palm tops, where the most you should have to type in is a person's name and address, are ok for handwriting recognition, but even there I find myself typing notes on my PC and uploading them to the palm.
In short, bad idea Apple...
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!