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PPC Linux Distro Comparisons
acaben writes: "At MacSlash we've got a story about the differences between the different distros of Linux available for PowerPC architecture. We've invited developers of each version to stop by and respond to comments, and already the debate is raging." Considering the power of Apple's newest hardware, this is an especially interesting topic; readers are weighing in about ease of use, hardware support and other things. I wonder when Web pages devoted to Linux on The G4 Cube will start showing up! :)
Now compare that to YDL CS 1.2. It also uses the Red Hat installer, but it is much more stable. The installation documentation rocked, and you can download all of their fully working, complete ISO images. It detected my hardware fairly well, and configuration was easy. It also looks like their update program (YUP) is easy to use. I wouldn't know since my employer has a badass firewall set up (no ftp in or out except through special machines). It would be nice if the YDL people made it possible to update through HTTP protocols.
Really, they are both very similar, but Yellow Dog has definitely put quite a bit of thought into their distribution. It has what you need on the main CD, and what you want on the tasty morsels CD.
On an important note, configuring X sucked with both distros.
My test platform was a PPC 8600/200 with 80 mb of RAM and a 2 gig hard drive, dual booting between Linux and OS 9. I'm installing YDL on a blue G3 later on this week.
flame on
The middle mind speaks!
I've always lamented about the lack of a real home architecture for linux. I used to run amigas, and one of the things I liked was that the Operating System was intimately tuned for a specific set of hardware - that's one of the things that made the amiga great. The OS complimented the hardware and orchestrated it like a symphony, not a drill instructor :).
I *Drooled* over the NeXT hardware when it came out, but it was too freaking expensive. But hell, I *like* nice looking hardware. :) Clones are ugly. High powered, but inelgant :). I'm not dissing the goals of cross-platform compatibility - that's a great thing - but it would be nice to have a box that does linux best. It would also get rid of the problems people have - especially newbies - getting linux running. "Here, buy this, put this CD in, wait an hour, and then you're running linux. Voila!"
If you took one of those little cubes, added in one of those beautiful LCDs that apple has - the big ass one - that might be my linux dream machine, and I can give up dual booting and put my Athlon in the closet out of sight.
You just need a distribution of linux with the appropriate level of support, and you most certainly will need support from apple to get the required information. I don't really see either happening. While I'm not too sure about the cube's preformance, I suspect it will be lackluster in price/preformance to my Athlon with 256 megs.
..don't panic
you shouldn't. Apparently the obsd guys can't get the apple firmware to run elf executables. That means lots o stuff will have to be a.out and that's no fun.
On the other hand, if you still have that Quadra, you can run obsd on that. Any m68k mac will run it except for those based on the 68LC040 processor. And don't ask theo if a port for that is forthcoming or you'll be subjected to his 20 minute tirade about how to do a chip transplant with a soldering gun a can of air and a roll of masking tape. I kid you not.
2 1337 4 u!
Are there any numbers on the people using Macintosh systems with Linux? Usually half the Mac mystique is the love most mac folks have for the OS.
Are there any numbers on performance versus Intel Linux based systems?
ACK
Rob: on behalf of anyone who has every said Slashdot was ugly, I apologize profusely.
Everyone else: I suggest you visit macslash to see what happens when good code goes bad.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
There are a few problems with that approach:
- VirtualPC emulates x86 RedHat Linux, at a speed similar to a 66 Mhz 486 on most G3 machines. This means X Windows will be slow, as will many apps (like Netscape). This just doesn't compare to running Linux natively, which is far faster.
- Your running on top of Mac OS. If Mac OS crashes, you lose your Linux stuff. Debian GNU/Linux on my Mac only has downtime caused by me adding or changing hardware, power outages, and that rare time I have to use Mac OS.
- VirtualPC means you are sharing your RAM between Mac OS and Linux. This means you need lots of RAM, and you have to share it (Linux won't be able to use all your 512 Megs or whatever, Mac OS needs some of it).
- VirtualPC is too slow for a server or day to day use.
Good things about VirtualPC with Linux:
- Run Mac OS programs side by side with Linux programs. Actually, you can do this now with PowerPC Linux, thanks to Mac-on-Linux.
- It's preinstalled. No complex installation needed.
With PowerPC Linux if you mess up your configuration, all you have to do is get out your backup (you backup frequently right?!)
...and that's why they're so negative about their first Linux experience. I know a load of Maccers. They don't care about Free as in Speech as a Linux guru does. They don't care about power as much as we do. What they care about is usability, friendliness, beauty and style.
/etc textfiles.
:-)
These are often small points, that even a Miguel de Icaza should not see (I imagine), just because he is used to Unix, to "RTFM!" and
For instance: when you type in a console, and the program is actually busy and not accepting input, your input will still be repeated on screen. (This is extremely nice when your shell loads in "su" and you already start ticking your password.)
Also, we are often distracted by the Windows version of usability. Even GNOME, a project that does a lot of things good in my eyes, pops up messages with "Are you sure you want to...?" now and then.
This is not BAD, but it is one of these small things. I remember my first Windows experience, after having used an Amiga for a time. "Are you sure you want to logout?" No, I'm not, but I still do it.
"No."
Damn! Still running! How can I logout, like, "maybe"?
Sun does this a lot of better: they ask "Please confirm your exit from the desktop session." I click "OK" and I am gone.
Another small thing: when a Mac hits a serious error (which happens only in emulators, I guess), it *apologizes* in the error message, like:
"Sorry, but an error has occored." followed by more information.
Well, see a person who is used to all these nice things get through a Debian install. Or even a graphical install -- for "graphical" doesn't directly mean easy, intuitive and user-friendly. And even though currently user-friendliness focusses on installation, there's a big lack of maintenance-tools user-friendliness. (e.g. try to add a remote Samba printer in Debian.) IMHO a program as Linuxconf only adds to the confusion. It begat buggy beyond repair here, anyway. What's the use of that?
No, I have seen Mac's and I love them, because you really get the feeling that it is a work of true love to the user, when you sit behind it. But I'd rather not depend on a single company for "love", and that keeps me to Linux
But if the folks at GNOME really want to make a super-product, they should not only spy on Microsoft and try to improve that. They should also actively spy at Apple. For they have some very unique approaches to software design. (Not that I don't trust the GNOME folks; they have made some very good decisions IMHO!)
It's... It's...
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
Being an anonymous coward, I am sure this is probably a troll, but I'll bite for the hell of it.
:-)"
:)
"The root problem I think is so much differing hardware. Intel is usually pretty standard. PPC stuff ain't."
PowerPC hardware is actually alot more similar in config from model to model then x86 boxes. The difference in PowerPC proccessors is quite small, as is the hardware. There are only about half a dozen different video cards to worry about. SCSI, Floppy, USB, Serial, etc. are the pretty much the same on every Mac (although not all have those ports). The biggest difference now days between models is new world PCI vs. old world PCI vs. Nubus (which is only starting to be supported).
"There seems to be no central place to report bugs"
It depends on the software. Just like x86 Linux, there is not an universal place to report bugs. It really doesn't help to send a GNOME bug to the Linux PowerPC Kernel Team. For kernel bugs, try sending to linuxppc-dev@lists.linuxppc.org. For packaging bugs, send mail to the place that makes your distro. Questions and comments on LinuxPPC 2k can be posted to linuxppc-user@lists.linuxppc.org. Yellow Dog Linux, SuSE and Debian also have there own ways to get in contact with the packagers (and others).
"I've tried but it seems they just want to ship CDs not record problems."
This would be LinuxPPC, Inc. you are referring to? I have noticed they have a tendency to go with cool, easy to use, over stable and tested, but that's their choice. Other distros (like YDL, Debian and SuSE) are more stable and reliable.
"I'm quite happy to test stuff and see if I can isolate problems, but not if noone is interested in fixing these problems."
I highly doubt your comments and suggestions are falling on deaf ears, no matter how it appears. However note that many of the hackers are very busy, and may not have time to fix stuff right way. Of course if you have made up patches or clear fixes I am sure they would be much more likely to fix them.
"Documentation is worse than non-existent in that it's inaccurate."
This is certianly a problem, as PowerPC Linux is quickly improving, and the documentation is quickly lagging behind. However, excluding the boot process it's almost the same as x86 Linux. If you need post install help for YDL or LPPC, take a look at the RedHat manual, and on the web. For SuSE look at the SuSE documentation and others. There are also lots of Debian documentation.
"Getting hold of the latest source for a specific platform is next to impossible."
Especially nowdays, source tends work between archs without problems. Few Linux programs aren't source compatible with the PowerPC.
"In short it sounds like the Intel Linux of two or three years ago
Good way to end a flame (not, it gives it away
Secondly, now that MacOSX is almost here, wouldn't it be possible to engineer a peice of PPC hardware so that it boots Darwin, and then shouldn't MacOSX work fine from there? What's to stop a new clone manufacturer?
he's mentioning that it's a beige G3, because Apple calls all their PowerMac products the same damn thing. in fall '97 they released:
PowerMac G3 and the
PowerMac G3
then in January '99, they released the
PowerMac G3
The first "PowerMac G3" was a beige color desktop machine.
the second was a beige colored minitower machine
the third was a Blue and white colored minitower
for that reason, when talking about their G3, they try to specify exactly what system they have(there was also a rev 1 and rev 2 of each, which Mac users sometimes mention).
the same is true for other product lines too. people who get the new G4s are calling them gigabit G4s, or MP G4s. people with different revisions of PowerBooks refer to their size or weight, or the color of their keyboard. iMac users generally tell you what revision they were, as we had Rev a, b, c, and d, and then iMac DV, etc.
it might work better if Apple named their machines with numbers like they used to, but for now, just understand that when I say I have a Blue G3/300, I'm not trying to boast about my pretty case
Also, for the security-conscious, OpenBSD has a PowerPC port in progress as well.
- Joe
-Joe
I am using Debian/PowerPC right now. Yes, I like the package system, it works very good. The FHS is uses works pretty good. Advanced users may want to take a look.
.ppc.rpm, expecting to be installed on a RedHat-like system, with a FHS similar to RedHat. So you can install them on Debian using Alien, but it will put things in the wrong place, and sometimes mess up the configs.
However, Debian has many problems, (some of which are problems on the x86 too).
- There are few PowerPC/PowerMac specific stuff in Debian/PPC now. While more and more is being added, it's still not at the level of established PowerPC distros. Stuff like Mac-on-Linux (Run Mac OS on top of Linux), pmud (Powerbook Battery Control), pmacpow (turn your machine on and off a specific times), vmode (change resolution of FrameBuffer, some claim obsolete), Xpmac (an old, simple, few options but fast X Server), Netscape (the version they have is really old) etc.
- No KDE. I find KDE to be a fast and useful desktop enviroment. Yes, I have heard all of the licensing arguments people make, but most of those arguments are a load of bullcrap. I resent being told what is right and wrong for me. And there are other packages like KDE that won't include for similar reasons. The kde.tdyc.com powerpc.deb's are outdated and limited in what they have.
- Debian is behind on the PowerPC. All new software on the PowerPC comes out in RedHat-like
- I have had problems with dpkg uninstalling the wrong versions of programs when I have multiple versions. Maybe it's just my luck.
- The installer is half-baked. Hey, I couldn't even get it to work right. Maybe it was just when I installed it last Spring -- it quite possibly has improved since then.
- apt-get is very cool stuff. I love that program. However, similar systems are being developed, such as yup. Still yup is very immature compared apt-get, it is rapidly improving.
For most people I would recommend (at the current time) to stay away from Debian. Unless you are familar with setting up lots of config files, and doing stuff by hand, Debian isn't the anwser. Debian/PPC is a sweet distro, but in it's current state it requires experience, and careful work on the installer to get it working nicely.
Of course I assume you could apply the same arguments to SuSE, as it has many of the same problems.
All in all, if you are the typical user, and want an install that works out of the box well, get Yellow Dog Linux.
Actually, the cubes are fanless. At Macworld they compared the sound it makes to a whisper at about 20 paces. They're cooled through an air tunnel through the center of the box.
From Apple's Website - Amazingly, we figured out how to cool this enormous G4 power without a fan, making this one of the quietest computers ever built. Running in virtual silence, the G4 Cube doesn't distract you from more important things -- like thinking. This also lets you appreciate the pristine audio quality of the pair of Apple-designed Harman Kardon stereo speakers that bring hi-fidelity sound to your movies, music and games.