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PPC Linux Distro Comparisons
acaben writes: "At MacSlash we've got a story about the differences between the different distros of Linux available for PowerPC architecture. We've invited developers of each version to stop by and respond to comments, and already the debate is raging." Considering the power of Apple's newest hardware, this is an especially interesting topic; readers are weighing in about ease of use, hardware support and other things. I wonder when Web pages devoted to Linux on The G4 Cube will start showing up! :)
Actually YDL and LinuxPPC (both based on RedHat) are more secure then x86 for several reasons.
:P And SuSE 6.4 also exists. Read some of the problems you might encounter on a below post.
- inetd.conf services are all commented out on install. The user must uncomment them to use them. That means the user knows he enabling something that could be insecure.
- PPC Specific Exploits are far and few between. The PowerPC is a more complex processor to write asm for, not to mention less popular. Who is going to write an exploit for PowerPC Linux -- when most people are running i386 linux.
- Yellow Dog Linux includes yup, which can be configured to run automatically from cron to download and install the latest security updates, similar to Debian.
- RedHat PowerPC Linux distros come out after the i386 ones, so they have time to spot and fix security problems before shipping.
- Both YDL and LinuxPPC have a good track record at letting people know about problems quickly. They have security related mailing lists.
And yes, Debian for the PowerPC certianly exists. I am running it now.
FYI, Linux PCC guru Stew Benedict has a great article in this month's Linux Journal, "Yellow Dog Linux on the iMac." He gives a good overview of the process, the benefits and drawbacks to YDL, etc.
:)
FWIW, I use Yellowdog (I have for over a year), and I absolutely love it. There's nuthin' prettier than Helix Gnome on an iMac.
-Waldo
-------------------
Sorry to nit-pick but I get asked about this from time to time. Your right that no *nix will run well, if at all on the LC040 chips but there are other older Mac's that can't run *nix either. Basicly you need a 68020 with a MMU or better. 68000 chips (Mac Plus, Classic, SE) can not run *nix nor can plain 68020's (LC(?), Mac II, etc) with out a MMU.
- Apple Computer......proudly going out of business for over twenty years.
I'm not sure that they released register level information on the hardware in the cube. I would be DELIGHTED to be found incorrect on that one.. but just because the code is released doesn't mean that all the drivers are :(. Although it would most certainly be in the community spirit, especially concidering where some of that code came from! :)
I always wondered why Amiga didn't get together, take some cutting edge hardware like the GeForce or Voodoo5 chips, and release a real Linux box with full sound, 3D, MPEG, TV, blah blah blah support. I think the old amiga in 92 had more third-party hardware manufacturer support than Linux does now - we just happen to have a lot more dedicated people making code happen. It would certainly solve all the qualms about NDAs and the like, and provide demonstrable market share to people who SHOULD be writing drivers. *cough* diamond *cough* handspring *cough* insert-nifty-usb-device here *ahem*.
..don't panic
Why not bundle Office SBE with a clone? Surely Microsoft wouldn't be adverse to an OEM like that. However, I would be willing to pay for a no-OS clone that I would still pay $99 for the OS - if it's around $1000 and includes PCI Slots I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Now compare that to YDL CS 1.2. It also uses the Red Hat installer, but it is much more stable. The installation documentation rocked, and you can download all of their fully working, complete ISO images. It detected my hardware fairly well, and configuration was easy. It also looks like their update program (YUP) is easy to use. I wouldn't know since my employer has a badass firewall set up (no ftp in or out except through special machines). It would be nice if the YDL people made it possible to update through HTTP protocols.
Really, they are both very similar, but Yellow Dog has definitely put quite a bit of thought into their distribution. It has what you need on the main CD, and what you want on the tasty morsels CD.
On an important note, configuring X sucked with both distros.
My test platform was a PPC 8600/200 with 80 mb of RAM and a 2 gig hard drive, dual booting between Linux and OS 9. I'm installing YDL on a blue G3 later on this week.
flame on
The middle mind speaks!
I've always lamented about the lack of a real home architecture for linux. I used to run amigas, and one of the things I liked was that the Operating System was intimately tuned for a specific set of hardware - that's one of the things that made the amiga great. The OS complimented the hardware and orchestrated it like a symphony, not a drill instructor :).
I *Drooled* over the NeXT hardware when it came out, but it was too freaking expensive. But hell, I *like* nice looking hardware. :) Clones are ugly. High powered, but inelgant :). I'm not dissing the goals of cross-platform compatibility - that's a great thing - but it would be nice to have a box that does linux best. It would also get rid of the problems people have - especially newbies - getting linux running. "Here, buy this, put this CD in, wait an hour, and then you're running linux. Voila!"
If you took one of those little cubes, added in one of those beautiful LCDs that apple has - the big ass one - that might be my linux dream machine, and I can give up dual booting and put my Athlon in the closet out of sight.
You just need a distribution of linux with the appropriate level of support, and you most certainly will need support from apple to get the required information. I don't really see either happening. While I'm not too sure about the cube's preformance, I suspect it will be lackluster in price/preformance to my Athlon with 256 megs.
..don't panic
Just design your mobo to Darwin. Since Aqua (if it's well-behaved) will be using ioctl's and stuff to access the hardware, it's immune from having to speak to ROMs. If you design your mobo so that all ioctl's work properly, then you've got a winner.
you shouldn't. Apparently the obsd guys can't get the apple firmware to run elf executables. That means lots o stuff will have to be a.out and that's no fun.
On the other hand, if you still have that Quadra, you can run obsd on that. Any m68k mac will run it except for those based on the 68LC040 processor. And don't ask theo if a port for that is forthcoming or you'll be subjected to his 20 minute tirade about how to do a chip transplant with a soldering gun a can of air and a roll of masking tape. I kid you not.
2 1337 4 u!
dammit, yer right. Sorry.
2 1337 4 u!
what's the future for third-party high-end PPC RISC workstations? If IBM could be convinced to make a lower-end variant of their 64-bit workstation/supercomputer processor line, rather than a high-end variant of their 32-bit embedded processor line as they do now, PPC would have a much easier time competing on the desktop market.
I believe you just described the G5 (no, I didn't just make that up).
- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Are there any numbers on the people using Macintosh systems with Linux? Usually half the Mac mystique is the love most mac folks have for the OS.
Are there any numbers on performance versus Intel Linux based systems?
ACK
Rob: on behalf of anyone who has every said Slashdot was ugly, I apologize profusely.
Everyone else: I suggest you visit macslash to see what happens when good code goes bad.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
No, I change my homepage to reflect what I'm ranting on at any particular moment. Due to holidays and my absence from this board, the last time I updated it was during some argument on IDEs for linux.
2 1337 4 u!
For the Open Firmware, grab the System Disk tool (you'll need MacOS 8 or 9). There is a mini-tutorial (with pictures :-) which should get you started. If the stuff there doesn't get you going, you can probably find tips in the mailing list archives.
- Joe
-Joe
My problem is a dependance on Openfirmware and 603 or higher processors. Most of my PPC hardware either doesn't have open firmware because it's Nubus(Power Computing Power 120, and two 6100s) or doesn't have a 603 or higher processor (7200/120).
I'm stuck with MKLinux if I want a Linux distro.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
There are a few problems with that approach:
- VirtualPC emulates x86 RedHat Linux, at a speed similar to a 66 Mhz 486 on most G3 machines. This means X Windows will be slow, as will many apps (like Netscape). This just doesn't compare to running Linux natively, which is far faster.
- Your running on top of Mac OS. If Mac OS crashes, you lose your Linux stuff. Debian GNU/Linux on my Mac only has downtime caused by me adding or changing hardware, power outages, and that rare time I have to use Mac OS.
- VirtualPC means you are sharing your RAM between Mac OS and Linux. This means you need lots of RAM, and you have to share it (Linux won't be able to use all your 512 Megs or whatever, Mac OS needs some of it).
- VirtualPC is too slow for a server or day to day use.
Good things about VirtualPC with Linux:
- Run Mac OS programs side by side with Linux programs. Actually, you can do this now with PowerPC Linux, thanks to Mac-on-Linux.
- It's preinstalled. No complex installation needed.
With PowerPC Linux if you mess up your configuration, all you have to do is get out your backup (you backup frequently right?!)
...and that's why they're so negative about their first Linux experience. I know a load of Maccers. They don't care about Free as in Speech as a Linux guru does. They don't care about power as much as we do. What they care about is usability, friendliness, beauty and style.
/etc textfiles.
:-)
These are often small points, that even a Miguel de Icaza should not see (I imagine), just because he is used to Unix, to "RTFM!" and
For instance: when you type in a console, and the program is actually busy and not accepting input, your input will still be repeated on screen. (This is extremely nice when your shell loads in "su" and you already start ticking your password.)
Also, we are often distracted by the Windows version of usability. Even GNOME, a project that does a lot of things good in my eyes, pops up messages with "Are you sure you want to...?" now and then.
This is not BAD, but it is one of these small things. I remember my first Windows experience, after having used an Amiga for a time. "Are you sure you want to logout?" No, I'm not, but I still do it.
"No."
Damn! Still running! How can I logout, like, "maybe"?
Sun does this a lot of better: they ask "Please confirm your exit from the desktop session." I click "OK" and I am gone.
Another small thing: when a Mac hits a serious error (which happens only in emulators, I guess), it *apologizes* in the error message, like:
"Sorry, but an error has occored." followed by more information.
Well, see a person who is used to all these nice things get through a Debian install. Or even a graphical install -- for "graphical" doesn't directly mean easy, intuitive and user-friendly. And even though currently user-friendliness focusses on installation, there's a big lack of maintenance-tools user-friendliness. (e.g. try to add a remote Samba printer in Debian.) IMHO a program as Linuxconf only adds to the confusion. It begat buggy beyond repair here, anyway. What's the use of that?
No, I have seen Mac's and I love them, because you really get the feeling that it is a work of true love to the user, when you sit behind it. But I'd rather not depend on a single company for "love", and that keeps me to Linux
But if the folks at GNOME really want to make a super-product, they should not only spy on Microsoft and try to improve that. They should also actively spy at Apple. For they have some very unique approaches to software design. (Not that I don't trust the GNOME folks; they have made some very good decisions IMHO!)
It's... It's...
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
LinuxPPC (the generic base PowerPC dirtibution, which shares its name with LinuxPPC, the distribution brought to you by LinuxPPC.com) has some experimental support for NuBus based Macs, but MkLinux is more mature in this case
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
A little bigger on the inside than out
Neat, but... two-hundred-and-twenty-five-goddamn-dollars? Wow. alternatively, you could get a shelf and sit them side by side (basically the same amount of rackspace)
Not really. We have shelf "racked" and rack racked machines and the shelf is just a huge behemoth of messiness. Also, the rack allows you to just roll yer expensive hardware and data out the door in the event of fire (grin). Oh yeah, macs ship with stickers so you can perform "logo uprighting" procedures independently. :)
2 1337 4 u!
Being an anonymous coward, I am sure this is probably a troll, but I'll bite for the hell of it.
:-)"
:)
"The root problem I think is so much differing hardware. Intel is usually pretty standard. PPC stuff ain't."
PowerPC hardware is actually alot more similar in config from model to model then x86 boxes. The difference in PowerPC proccessors is quite small, as is the hardware. There are only about half a dozen different video cards to worry about. SCSI, Floppy, USB, Serial, etc. are the pretty much the same on every Mac (although not all have those ports). The biggest difference now days between models is new world PCI vs. old world PCI vs. Nubus (which is only starting to be supported).
"There seems to be no central place to report bugs"
It depends on the software. Just like x86 Linux, there is not an universal place to report bugs. It really doesn't help to send a GNOME bug to the Linux PowerPC Kernel Team. For kernel bugs, try sending to linuxppc-dev@lists.linuxppc.org. For packaging bugs, send mail to the place that makes your distro. Questions and comments on LinuxPPC 2k can be posted to linuxppc-user@lists.linuxppc.org. Yellow Dog Linux, SuSE and Debian also have there own ways to get in contact with the packagers (and others).
"I've tried but it seems they just want to ship CDs not record problems."
This would be LinuxPPC, Inc. you are referring to? I have noticed they have a tendency to go with cool, easy to use, over stable and tested, but that's their choice. Other distros (like YDL, Debian and SuSE) are more stable and reliable.
"I'm quite happy to test stuff and see if I can isolate problems, but not if noone is interested in fixing these problems."
I highly doubt your comments and suggestions are falling on deaf ears, no matter how it appears. However note that many of the hackers are very busy, and may not have time to fix stuff right way. Of course if you have made up patches or clear fixes I am sure they would be much more likely to fix them.
"Documentation is worse than non-existent in that it's inaccurate."
This is certianly a problem, as PowerPC Linux is quickly improving, and the documentation is quickly lagging behind. However, excluding the boot process it's almost the same as x86 Linux. If you need post install help for YDL or LPPC, take a look at the RedHat manual, and on the web. For SuSE look at the SuSE documentation and others. There are also lots of Debian documentation.
"Getting hold of the latest source for a specific platform is next to impossible."
Especially nowdays, source tends work between archs without problems. Few Linux programs aren't source compatible with the PowerPC.
"In short it sounds like the Intel Linux of two or three years ago
Good way to end a flame (not, it gives it away
It's a plastic casing.
...
Not electrically conductive.
Just immerse it about two-thirds up the case
Better yet, use jello!
Will in Seattle
The ROM file is part of MacOS. It replaces the "old" >4Mb ROM that "oldworld" Macs had. It's loaded from disk by the firmware (and in our case, by the emulator which simulates the firmware).
For example, if you buy a MacOS 9 "box", on the CD, you'll find the ROM file. You just need to copy it over to the linux filesystem, strip it, and then, boot MacOnLinux from the CD in order to do the MacOS install.
Part of the problem is Altivec patch for GCC produces binary incompatible binaries (with older non-ativec machines). Also, to get the most out of Altivec, you have to call Altivec instructions, which if you don't #ifdef, you will create source that won't compile on normal GCC (and work on non-G4 machines).
Altivec.org has both patches and rpms of patched gcc (and binutils too, I beleive). Also see the Yellow Dog Linux Devel Page, it has some altivec info.
I have a NetBSD/68k box right next to me. It's an LC III that is running far from factory standards. I replaced that 80 meg harddrive and threw in a ton more RAM. I have 1.4.2 on it right now and am anxious for 1.5 to be released. It runs great as a firewall/NAT box. Haven't had any problems with it. My choice to use NetBSD over Linux were numerous. Greater HW support and the port is much more mature. I wouldn't be able to run Linux on the hardware it currently has. NetBSD easily beats Linux in this area, hate to break it to you.
true. Okay, I admit I didn't think back to the all-in-wonder 68000-ers. However, I am vaugely sure that you can run obsd on an LC. I have an LC, LCIII and LC630 and had those guys in mind when I picked up obsd. I remember taking solace in the fact that the LC's could run it even if the 630 couldn't... but I didn't install it on any of those machines anyway due to disk limitations....
(Mac Plus, Classic, SE) can not run *nix
welll... if you don't mind death-by-slowness you can run the ever-emulated Minix for the Mac. But, really, you gotta have a lot of patience
2 1337 4 u!
The Apple implementation of OpenFirmware does not support loading of ELF executables (like the boot-blocks for this port). This needs a workaround.
2 1337 4 u!
Wow, the links alone have made coming here today worth it. I wish my lan-centre looked as cool as theirs though...
We've been using ANA wich usually works out fine, but we keep monitors and keyboard there for those emergencies (ie, it's frozen) and the resulting jumble has made me want to cry.
2 1337 4 u!
The Cube looks like a restroom trash can. All it needs is a foot lever and a pop-up lid.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
I'm more anxious about Linux on the daul G4!
...
Yeah, but I like dual Gauls in my boxen. Asterix et Obelix, the twin processors, both revved to the max - just watch out when you overclock those suckers!
Has anyone painted their cubes yet? Zebra stripes, polka dots, flowers, and PowerPuff Girl motifs spring to mind
Design Force One - Engage!
Will in Seattle
Secondly, now that MacOSX is almost here, wouldn't it be possible to engineer a peice of PPC hardware so that it boots Darwin, and then shouldn't MacOSX work fine from there? What's to stop a new clone manufacturer?
Colors help easily identify the model being used. For example, "Beige G3/300 tower", and you know this machine is 3 years old, have ATI rage II video, no Firewire, etc...
Why does every damned review of mac hardware have to mention, "Mine is a grape flavored mac, shaped like a cube!"
:)
On the PC side, everyone always has to mention the processor speed and video card, "Word sure is slow on my Pentium II 2600/GeForce."
No.
When an Apple user says "Beige G3", they mean the pre-Jobs model, which had an older motherboard design and was installed in the same towers as the old 604-PPC Macs. The term is used to differentiate them from the "Blue and White" (or just "B&W") G3 towers, which are the spiffy ones that open like a drawbridge, have a rippin' fast mobo, and use PC100 memory. You can check here for a list of the various models.
The iMacs that shipped in multiple "flavors" were identical, except for the casing. Every model that came out during that time period was available in all colors, except for the bottom-of-the-line cheapie, which was blue only.
Being from Minnesota, I kind of would have liked to have had a purple iMac, so I could sitck Vikings horns on the side to make it look like a big football helmet, but I never really had any need for an iMac. I need the PCI slots, so I bought a B&W G3 tower instead.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
To distinguish which G3 model people have they often state which color case it has - i.e G3 Beige (early) vs. G3 B/W (Blue and White, a later machine).
just my blog and pix
he's mentioning that it's a beige G3, because Apple calls all their PowerMac products the same damn thing. in fall '97 they released:
PowerMac G3 and the
PowerMac G3
then in January '99, they released the
PowerMac G3
The first "PowerMac G3" was a beige color desktop machine.
the second was a beige colored minitower machine
the third was a Blue and white colored minitower
for that reason, when talking about their G3, they try to specify exactly what system they have(there was also a rev 1 and rev 2 of each, which Mac users sometimes mention).
the same is true for other product lines too. people who get the new G4s are calling them gigabit G4s, or MP G4s. people with different revisions of PowerBooks refer to their size or weight, or the color of their keyboard. iMac users generally tell you what revision they were, as we had Rev a, b, c, and d, and then iMac DV, etc.
it might work better if Apple named their machines with numbers like they used to, but for now, just understand that when I say I have a Blue G3/300, I'm not trying to boast about my pretty case
Also, for the security-conscious, OpenBSD has a PowerPC port in progress as well.
- Joe
-Joe
No, the internals are identical from flavor to flavor. However, certain flavors were only available at certain times. If you say you have a bondi iMac, that locks it down to the first two revisions. If you have a blueberry, that means it's in a different particular range, and so forth.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
I run LinuxPPc on a IAMC DV I've worked as a software engineer since '85. In short Linux on PPC sucks. The root problem I think is so much differing hardware. Intel is usually pretty standard. PPC stuff ain't. There seems to be no central place to report bugs, I've tried but it seems they just want to ship CDs not record problems. I'm quite happy to test stuff and see if I can isolate problems, but not if noone is interested in fixing these problems. Documentation is worse than non-existent in that it's inaccurate. Getting hold of the latest source for a specific platform is next to impossible. In short it sounds like the Intel Linux of two or three years ago :-)
no, along the same product line, the hardware generally doesn't change according to flavor.
the new iMacs are set so that the low-end($799) machines don't allow users to buy all the flavors, but that's missing the point. if someone with the $799 machine wants features of the "Snow" machine, they have to $1499 because the Snow machine has many more features. it has nothing to do with the color. at any given price point, there is no feature difference between flavors
although in actuality they probably shouldn't even be called flavors any more, as Sage, Indigo, Ruby, Graphite and Snow aren't generally things consumed by humans
I am using Debian/PowerPC right now. Yes, I like the package system, it works very good. The FHS is uses works pretty good. Advanced users may want to take a look.
.ppc.rpm, expecting to be installed on a RedHat-like system, with a FHS similar to RedHat. So you can install them on Debian using Alien, but it will put things in the wrong place, and sometimes mess up the configs.
However, Debian has many problems, (some of which are problems on the x86 too).
- There are few PowerPC/PowerMac specific stuff in Debian/PPC now. While more and more is being added, it's still not at the level of established PowerPC distros. Stuff like Mac-on-Linux (Run Mac OS on top of Linux), pmud (Powerbook Battery Control), pmacpow (turn your machine on and off a specific times), vmode (change resolution of FrameBuffer, some claim obsolete), Xpmac (an old, simple, few options but fast X Server), Netscape (the version they have is really old) etc.
- No KDE. I find KDE to be a fast and useful desktop enviroment. Yes, I have heard all of the licensing arguments people make, but most of those arguments are a load of bullcrap. I resent being told what is right and wrong for me. And there are other packages like KDE that won't include for similar reasons. The kde.tdyc.com powerpc.deb's are outdated and limited in what they have.
- Debian is behind on the PowerPC. All new software on the PowerPC comes out in RedHat-like
- I have had problems with dpkg uninstalling the wrong versions of programs when I have multiple versions. Maybe it's just my luck.
- The installer is half-baked. Hey, I couldn't even get it to work right. Maybe it was just when I installed it last Spring -- it quite possibly has improved since then.
- apt-get is very cool stuff. I love that program. However, similar systems are being developed, such as yup. Still yup is very immature compared apt-get, it is rapidly improving.
For most people I would recommend (at the current time) to stay away from Debian. Unless you are familar with setting up lots of config files, and doing stuff by hand, Debian isn't the anwser. Debian/PPC is a sweet distro, but in it's current state it requires experience, and careful work on the installer to get it working nicely.
Of course I assume you could apply the same arguments to SuSE, as it has many of the same problems.
All in all, if you are the typical user, and want an install that works out of the box well, get Yellow Dog Linux.
No, I have seen Mac's and I love them, because you really get the feeling that it is a work of true love to the user
Hm. When I use an open source application that one or more people put thousands of hours into and then gave away for the benefit of the world at large, that's love. When I have to pay some smarmy vendor in Cupertino for a pretty-but-vacuous operating system running on overpriced, underpowered, closed-standard hardware, that's soliciting prostitution.
They'll all say they love you if you pay 'em enough. But it's only the ones that don't require money who mean it.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Actually, the cubes are fanless. At Macworld they compared the sound it makes to a whisper at about 20 paces. They're cooled through an air tunnel through the center of the box.
From Apple's Website - Amazingly, we figured out how to cool this enormous G4 power without a fan, making this one of the quietest computers ever built. Running in virtual silence, the G4 Cube doesn't distract you from more important things -- like thinking. This also lets you appreciate the pristine audio quality of the pair of Apple-designed Harman Kardon stereo speakers that bring hi-fidelity sound to your movies, music and games.