Slashdot Mirror
IBM Takeover Of Novell?
umjaja96 writes: "Reuters is reporting that IBM is rumored to be looking to buy Novell. Perhaps Big Blue is looking to strengthen its mid-range and lower end servers with something not from Redmond?"
← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)
First Lotus, now Novell, they sure can pick the winners can't they?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Shares of both companys did what is normally expected of over inflated speculative trading.
``We don't comment on rumors,'' said Microsoft CEO Bill Gates.
`Typically we don't comment on these kinds of rumors,'' said Rob Malda creater of the overly popular Slashdot news board.
----
"War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left"
"War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left"
Steven Wright
I don't think IBM would buy Novell for NetWare (tho it's a great server). Probably the real jewel is Novell's NetWare Directory Service. Essentially, it's a really, really, really scalable, extensible, directory which beats the closest competition (Microsoft's Active Directory) in every camp. Of course, you can run NDS on novell servers and Microsoft servers so you aren't required to keep IntraNetWare to keep NDS.
If you weren't already aware, NDS has been tested to handle something like 4 billion objects in the directory. So... one NDS network could handle any Fortune 500 company's directory requirements. And don't tell me that's not where the money is right now. Directory services are all about integrating disparate functions.
If the rumor is true, IBM may be looking to do what we all know Novell needs to do to stay alive, yet doesn't have the guts to do: open-source the Novell Directory. What have they got to lose? Market share? That's trickling away already: Windows NT and Linux are absolutely clobbering Netware in the marketplace. Novell's crown jewels right now are NDS. NDS, a robust, scalable, portable directory service. NDS, a directory that's proven in Fortune 500 installations. NDS, a directory that'll get clobbered once Microsoft Active Directory begins to take hold.
Novell needs to open-source NDS now, before it becomes irrelevant. IBM has the guts to do this, and the bucks to maintain the software as a loss leader to continue to sell services around it. If NDS is open sourced, it will become ubiquitous almost overnight, especially on Linux systems, where it will become the standard directory service. If they choose the GPL, even the Debian folks will adopt it. Imagine being able to write directory-aware applications for Linux, knowing that NDS will always be there.
That's my $0.02, anyway. Personally I think the rumor is bogus.
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
``We don't comment on rumors,'' said IBM spokeswoman Carol Makovich.
``Typically we don't comment on these kinds of rumors,'' said a Novell spokeswoman.
What a story! Someone starts a rumor, then reports it by asking the companies about the rumors.
Of course, they didn't deny it, either.
Just a dude. Stuck in IT.
Super Thick Thin Clients?
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
Actually I don't think it's silly at all, where I work we have a very heterogenous network with >1000 clients, NetWare and NDS are a big part of it. NDS has ~8 years of proven usage, does what it's supposed to very well and is crossplatform to boot.
One of the big things Novell is pushing with eDirectory(new cheesy name for NDS) is that you can manage NetWare, Linux, Windows, etc from one NDS tree and if IBM gets ahold of NDS I'm sure that'll include everything they market also, which is very appealing to large companies.
If this is true it's probably just a move against Microsoft/AD by IBM, and what better person to take down MS than the former heavy weight champ =)
--
NDS portability is something of a red herring; NDS ability to operate across platforms presumes that the hooks NDS makes into those platforms are stable across updates to non-Netware OSs. IE, Sun comes out with a Solaris patch that hammers a key NDS hook. Just because something exists on other platforms doesn't make it stable or reliable.
NDS cost is the other issue. I think its much more likely that vendors of non-Win2k platforms are likely to come up with AD interoperability for their own OS. No need to rely on MS for AD portability, no need to worry about native OS updates clobbering AD interoperability, and the biggest one, no need to double or triple your per-user licensing costs just to run NDS.
That last point is the thing that's going to keep multiplatform NDS out of the mainstream. It's really unclear to me that NDS adds enough value to warrant paying an additional $20-30 per seat when the OSs have built-in management. Maybe it's not as good as NDS, but its not costing extra, either.
2) The filesystem. It kicks ass, and reached its splendor in 3.12. From then on, it had to share CPU cycles & memory with NDS, but still was obscenely fast. Nothing, I tell you, NOTHING running on i386 ever matched the performance of a NetWare file server. NFS is a joke, Windows networking is a joke, Samba (although crucial for interoperability) is the emulation of a joke. I'd hate to see that code go up in smoke as Novell finally dies.
Netware was a peculiar beast. There were about 5 or 6 different pools of memory allocation, with different management and different use, which you had to fine-tune for maximum performance. A sizeable chunk of the manual was dedicated just for that.
Ok, that's enough nostalgia rant tonight. Now I really gotta sleep. Bye.
Speaking as someone who is being coerced (not really, but officially) into using groupwise: ..., Personal). I added the names and color backgrounds for the calendar. It also allows me to set repeating messages without starting to immediately warn me about all the ones in the future (there's probably a way around that, but it wasn't worth bothering how to figure it out at that point .. I went back to the prior system).
Groupwise has some real problems. The formatting of the calendar is uncontrollable, the printing is horrible, the mail feels like a bolted on kludge. I suppose that folk who use it without any choice eventually get used to it, but I don't know how they manage, and I've been easing into it for over 6 months. Until I finally gave up, and went back to a calendar that let me configure message classifications (Urgent, Important,
I don't know Notes, but I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about it, and I've been hearing about it for years.
So, FWIW, my guess it that GW would be allowed to molder. IBM is pretty good about keeping old software working, but it also doesn't invest lots of effort in something that it has decided isn't central. Were the deal to go through, I would expect three more releases of GW. One for the version that Novell is working on now. One to integrate it more smoothly into the new IBM network plan. And then one to fix all remaining major bugs. Then a few maintenance releases. Of course, during this period IBM would be pushing ahead at normal speed on Network/OS development and linkages. GW would stop being pushed by the sales teams as other products acquired the features that GW was good at.
OTOH, I would bet that you can still get a PLIXCLG module for your MVS system. IBM doesn't drop you cold.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It's not clear that vendors *won't* support AD. It's pretty clear that they're not setting sales records by "supporting" NDS. Novell themselves isn't setting any sales records selling NDS -- earnings are down 83% over this period last year!
You may be able to sell the "but if we spend a zillion dollars we can make the network cheaper to operate" where YOU work, but here, it's never clear that the financial outlay is worth it either to me or the people that approve my budgets.
The problem with large dollar outlays is that they DO show up in budgets and on balance sheets, but the "savings" never do. The savings are always theoretical estimates or wild claims from the always reliable people at whatever IT consulting group is big these days. To the people on top it often sounds like "the more you spend the more you save".
The same arguments have been made for years about high-falutin' SNMP management products. "If we could only have the $1M or however much to buy/config/install HP OpenVue/Tivoli/etc we could manage our network so much better and save millions down the road." Meanwhile, two years later you're still configuring/installing/calling the consultants in search of the big management savings.
The long and the short of it is that I'm not against NDS -- I use it every day! And I'm not *for* AD -- I still haven't even implemented it in a test environment. And I am VERY pro directory-enabled everything. What I am is skeptical that Novell's NDS (or eDirectory or whatever they're calling it today) is going to be *the* directory that makes it. I think Novell's business is too fsck'd up, I think they don't have an OS to subsidize NDS on other platforms, and I think they're charging too much to gain mass acceptance on operating systems other than Netware that they need in order for it to really be a success.
Nice point about the virus stuff.
However, a client base of about 300 is way too pessimistic. I run a Uni network with 15000 regular users (30000 registered users, but like most students, most of them don't turn up every day of the week). We've got 30+ NW4.11 servers. The clients all run NT4.0. Spiffy.
A lot of people have been passing comments such as "IBM's already pushing Linux", as though it's a valid competitor for medium installations (such as ours) or larger. Without some sort of directory, managing that many users is pig-awful (I know, I ran an NT3.51 service for a while). So far as I know, Linux alone doesn't have a directory, although you can run NDS on it.
Finally, the Active Directory that Microsoft are pushing is just a kludge built on top of a fifteen year old kludge. I know full well it will succeed eventually, but merely by power of marketing. It will never match the NDS technically.
Rob. (a happy NT Workstation user, who uses a proper NOS for serving, and tinkers with Linux to keep his nerdish instincts alive)
It's in the small to midrange installations where you see the techno cowboy wannabes who know how to double-click and therefore consider themselves network experts, that Windows NT replaces Netware rapidly.
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
IBM always has had a rough time with their hardware offerings (desktops; Netfinity servers. It seems the world is revolving around Dell these days. Novell has a huge number of loyal customers that every few years spend enormous amounts of money on Dell, Compaq systems. (And not at Novell software since their IntraNetWare 4.11 licenses purchased in '96 are still fine..) Getting into a technology joint-venture with Novell would make sence for IBM since they could then target those customers. IBM would provide a simple integrated networking solution based on Novell software and IBM hardware, with a lower total cost of ownership for the customer.
--[rosso bright]--
Why, Novell's share is about this much. According to IBM, anyway.
Well, like a few other posts have commented, Novell has a lot going for it... So you know I'm not talking out my ass, I work for a government body that has in excess of 600 servers, all running Novell and all tied together via NDS - Anyone want to print 3 thousand miles away? [grin]
Linux was born in '91 right? Novell's NDS has been around almost that long, and its only gotten better. NDS allows you to tie pretty much everything together - Desktops, Servers, Users, eMail, Firewall, DNS etc. The real question is, why wouldn't Big Blue (tm) want them?
Now, I'm a big fan of linux (note: not a zealot), but there are some things that Novell just does better. Case in point, my buddy Arcterex and I have often debated (over a wee pint o' Guiness) over Novell's value as compared to Linux... as I work with Novell and he with Linux (surprise, surprise...) What it comes down to for me is this: Linux can't even come CLOSE to Novell for having an EASY way for management - Novell's Netware Administrator takes the money all the way to the bank!
Now, I'm not a Micro$oft fan either, but I have occasion to work with their products on a daily basis (not my choice, but they have the market share right now). Their management software (User administration, Server Administration etc) isn't that bad for ease of use (GETTING to where you need to go isn't bad...its making it do what you want thats a pain in the @$$)
The thing that BOTH Micro$oft and Linux could learn from Novell is integration. Netware Administrator (NWadmin for the uninitiated) does everything. No, I mean *everything*. There are some tasks you actually have to go to the server console for, oh wait, you can RCONSOLE there through NWadmin... [grin]. The point being, that for pretty much every task/area of management you want, there is a SNAP-IN for the Administrator. Very Handy.
With Linux you have to go to 15 million different files to get things configured properly. And the REAL key is knowing which ones you need and how to do it properly. This isn't necessarily a bad (tm) thing, but it does produce a pretty steep learning curve. You'll notice how Unix Admin's get paid buckets more than Novell ones... its because Unix is harder to admin (that and there is more demand for *nix admins than for Novell)
Anywho, I'm done rambling... got work to do.
Neil.............
I used to have a cool sig.
Ok people, Novell is FAR from dead. To clear things up first, Novell is NOT NetWare, NetWare is one of their products.
.. they're supporting CIFS, you can manage and control NetWare all from a browser,
.. it might even run on Solaris and Linux now, i'm not sure. On top of this though, most of their "technology" products which do sexy things like managing QOS on networks by logged in user (this is supported in cisco IOS >12.0 apparently), dosen't rely on Netware either. Things like ZENworks and NetWare have clients for every version of windows out there, including 3.1 - even MS has dropped support for older platforms, and has no directory client for earlier workstation OS versions than Win2k workstation.
:)
:)
Novell is a going concern for these reasons:
NDS (eDirectory)
Best directory on the planet. Scales incredibly, has been around for 8 years, can talk to every open protocol for querying directories and authenticating users (just about). This includes things like linux PAM modules, radius servers, LDAP server, and other internetty things.
Open Strategy
Novell seems to only be going for open protocols and interoperability these days. For example, rather than rip out active directory in win2k, they sync to it
Proper thrust (ooh!) for integration between platforms.
You don't even need Netware to run NDS these days, you can run it on NT, and they're adding lots more platforms
DirXML
Wow. This stuff is amazing - it's the XML-description based integration for the directory. Basically, it populates databases from NDS automatically, and it's ALL OPEN. Apparently XML is going to be the magic glue to join disparite systems, and is being supported by all sorts of vendors. It'll be nice if it works
Now you probably think i digested a Novell marketing course, but seriously : i like novell's software. There are way too many drawbacks in an NT environment (domains? WTF?, services, WTF? proxy server, WTF?) - and even Linux is a dirty, dirty pig to manage. Yes, I can manage a linux box pretty damned well, but it'd be really nice to manage 50 linux boxes and their resources via a directory.
Linux will get there, and Novell might even be the people to bring it there.
What's this got to do with IBM? - not a lot, but I probably wouldn't mind seeing them merge. So long as it's a lotus-esque merger. IBM hasn't broken Lotus's good products (Notes).
And that's my 2 cents
PS: Apologies for posting this twice, but I accidentally banged the submit button before I was finished
You have to feel some sympathy for Novell.
They produced a quality product for years, and the experience really showed. Then they got virtually bundled out of the market (partly at least) by a network OS virtually still in it's embryonic stage.
As one of the long line of people who are forced t o work with NT on a daily basis, and had worked with Netware previously I really can't express enough how much I hope that IBM can get Novell, and help reclaim some of the server market from NT/2k (a NOS that thinks it's a workstation).
I just hope it's not too late.
Someone pass IBM the defibrillator.
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
NDS may rule, but it's got to be hard to run a software company with one product... especially a software company the size of Novell.
Netware has been losing market share for years and it's pretty clear that regardless of it's power as a file/print server I think that more memory/more servers are probably a better investment than Novell training.
If IBM buys, it'd be for NDS and maybe for the programmers.
- StaticLimit
Think about it....when Novell shed itself of Unix rights, they kept access to the patents/IP on a favorable rate.
Part of the driving reason for Caldera to buy parts of SCO....access to a cheaper IP licence for Unix.
And, with the right IP mix, either/both vendors can force other vendors to pay for a licence - aka push up the costs for the other vendors.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
It seems that IBM is moving towards providing mainstream Unix products to the burgoning amount of middle class Unix systems on the Internet.
Every day some Tom, Dick, and Harry start an Internet company. Who better to sell them hardware and software than IBM, a trusted name and institution.
If IBM buys Novell, IBM will have the final piece of the puzzle: a network operating system from which to integrate Linux/AIX compatibility.
The future: cheap, powerful, versatile servers.
viva la revolution!
IBM were to open-source NDS?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Every day that goes by that I haven't heard the demise of this venerable, one-time leader, I'm amazed. IBM must want their office space...
Vote Naked 2000
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Only idiots would allow lusers keep the primary business software on their machines. It is much more maintainable when run off a server. Why do you think people continue to sell think clients? They are more expensive than a PC. They require bigger servers. So there got to be a catch somewhere. And the catch is maintenance.
And it does not matter what M$ does to break away from the catch they are making matters even worse...
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
IBM is another company not known for being able to market great products.. look no further than OS/2, which beat Windows 3.1 in EVERY way except software compatibility at the time WARP was released.. it didn't catch on though, due in part to IBM's poor marketing.
Maybe it's just me, but I see problems when two companies which have trouble selling great products think of getting together.
--
Since IBM has piss-poor marketing, but the best army of sales oids in the business, I think they could make a go of it.
While they're at it, they could also buy Corel for a song and we could have Novell Word Perfect again.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Wonder how Novell could complement Big Blue to justify a buy-out....
I think that red goes very nicely with blue, don't you?
- Mike
I would have to agree with you completely. Novell has made huge steps in the educational department. A school with 500 students can get Netware, Zen Works, and Border Manager for $1000 with all the licenses needed for as many servers as you wish. You can then add any other Novell product at 50 cents each per user.
My job entails setting up a systems that dynamically installs applications based on user/workstation rights, keeps track of application licenses, connect multiple sites via VPNs, restrict Internet content, and others like web services etc. And that catch is: it must be easy enough to teach a librarian how to admin the system.
Since in NDS, every object can be trustees of any other object, it is very simple to add rights for a single person, group, container, location, and organization to applications, file shares, printers, and more.
Teachers log in and they get a full windows desktop much like our home machines (those of us that run windows), then just after they log off a student logs in and they have just a simple menu system with a completely different set of applications available to them. They don't even have rights to the applications directories on the server until they attempt to run it. When they close it, their rights are gone.
If a NOS can stand up to the worst script kiddies out there (high schoolers), IMO, it's pretty good. Throw in stability and speed, and nothing touches it....nothing.
I feel sorry for Novell. Overall, their products work really well, but they can't succeed. Here's why:
Netware is a pretty poor operating system for hosting anything other than Netware File+Print services. Memory protection options are limited and not enabled by default, SMP support is weak at best (File+Print *still* isn't SMP enabled). Ring 0 processes that tank clobber everything, and most everything that matters runs ring 0. Because of this environment, there aren't many 3rd-party applications to run on Netware and the ones that exist are a pale comparison to their NT counterparts.
Which brings us to NDS, Novell's shining star. NDS is great, but the downside to NDS is that by itself it doesn't do any good. It requires a resource(s) to manage, which generally means users and their security access to resources on a server-type machine (yes, I run Netware, and know all about Zenworks-type objects and others).
The downside to this is that ALL OS vendors provide some kind of resource management. From the simple (adduser, passwd, chmod) to the more sophisticated (ActiveDirectory, NIS+). Not only do vendor-supplied systems assume the default resource mechanisms are being used (usernames over 8 characters?) but changing the default behavior may require changing or patching applications or libraries to take advantage of the directory.
What's killing Novell (or should I say stifling NDS? Same thing) is that they don't have a general purpose operating system to compete with NT, the Unices, AS/400, et al, and the market is really favoring general purpose OSs that can handle many tasks. Trying to make Netware a general purpose OS is too little, too late.
They do have a really good directory system in NDS but by charging the amount they charge, they can double or triple the licensing costs that users end up paying for the same solution without NDS. That some OSs come with a directory that rivals some of the depth and functionality of NDS makes it a really tough sales pitch both to customers and even inside enterprises. (Bosses often think "spend more money to make my job easier" is somewhat heretical to the idea of working for a living). Novell's problem with NDS is that they can't afford to give it away on other platforms without a hot-selling OS to subsidize it, and if they can't give it away it won't get the adoption AD will get simply due to market reach.
What can Novell do to succeed? Partner with someone like Caldera, who have already been Novell friendly. Bring out "Netware for Linux": an NLM-compatible file+print system for Linux that will support SMB clients as well. Make the pricing for NDS flat-rate (ie, $1000 buys you all the stuff you need for 10 users or a million). Both of these things will get people to buy an OS from them *and* get NDS to be ubiquitous, which is what NDS needs to succeed.
Let's look at it product by product against, say, WindoZe.
Novell runs more users, more HD space, better throughput and more services on half the processor power, and a quarter of the RAM compared to NT. I've had a Novell server running 1000 users for file and print sharing - as well as an internet proxy cache, DHCP server, and DNS - on a server with a single processor and 1 gig of RAM. try that on NT - but throw three more processors and at least 3 gig more RAM at it first.
Novell can't run console applications - but who WANTS to run applications on their server? I mean - is it really necessary for the administrator to play Solitaire on the server console? Get real. Netware will run a web server, database server, file and print - what more is a server for?
The new java console on a Novell server even eliminates most of Windows only advantage - the ability to administer the user environment from the console. This was a feature unavailable un Netware versions prior to 5 - but with ConsoleOne under NW 5, you can even do that.
And finally - NDS versus ActiveDirectory. No contest, really - NDS is scalable, available on more platforms than you can shake a stick at, including Solaris, Linux, IBM mainframes and more, and more reliable. ActiveDirectory? You're stuck with NT, folks - live with it.
IBM buying Novell may or may not be a good thing - I think probably not, because it'll submerge the creativity within Novell, and probably kill it off as IBM sucks up to Microsoft some more to get better deals on NT. I hope this story isn't true!
They could just like Novell for the fact that it's Novell... Do what they did with Lotus and buy them up, and continue their businesses as they were previously, but be able to add Novell networks as another thing they do under their services operation... And since they would be the owners of Novell, who would be to argue that they aren't the largest source of Netware expertise?
So far as caldera and SCO goes... SCO's much more scalablet than Linux, sorry it's true. SCO's got a large installed base. Even if they can't integrate all of SCO's code into their products, they can learn quite a bit by it, enough to fold into their internal developement in an attempt to get a leg up on Redhat, et al... But mostly for the name and the installed base, is my bet...
Novell brings a couple of things to the table. First, of course, is NetWare. Still the fastest pure file/print solution out there, with pretty good Java servlet capability bolted on. Then, there's the crown jewel - NDS. NDS is already highly portable, can manage users on Unix and Windows, and can be used to manage desktops very nicely. NDS can be extended to almost anything, and unlike MS Active Directory, NDS has over 8 years of development (and live users) behind it.
IBM has systems available all over the map - from Intel PC servers running Windows or Linux, to RS/6000 systems with AIX, to AS/400 and S/390 minis and mainframes. NDS could help them tie this picture together better. And they own Lotus - which could benefit nicely from better NDS integration.
Not to mention that IBM has done a nice job with Lotus - sure, 1-2-3/SmartSuite is toast, but they've done a terrific business with Notes, and still have a substantial lead over Microsoft in the category.
It's a good fit for IBM, good technology, and a chance to get one of the few missing pieces in IBM's technology arsenal for a cheap price. IBM could buy Novell with pocket change. I'm surprised this deal didn't happen a year ago.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
> Does anyone know what Novell have that is currently of value to IBM? NDS, NetWare, GroupWise, BorderManager, and the list goes on. NDS alone is an extremely robust, useful product and it is multi platform. NetWare can't easily be beat for file and print services, and with NetWare 5, it's IP based, so other services, such as DNS/DHCP/WWW run very nicely. NetWare, to put it bluntly, doesn't crash much. and when it does, it does it very gracefully and doesn't generally kill eveyr process and blue screen. It simply notifies the admin that a crash took place and that it needs attention. GroupWise is the email package of choice for many Fortune 500 companies as it is also very stable and easy to use from an admin standpoint... and it doesn't have the vulnerabilities of Exchange/Outlook. I'm not as hyped about BorderManager, but it DEFINITELY does the job and does it well. I personally prefer dedicated hardware firewalls, but BM comes close. And, before I get flamed for being a Novell bigot, I'm an MCSE, too... and I've worked with Novell for years. While it is more difficult to administer than other OSs, it's come a LONG way in the past couple of years, and I think we'll start to see some marketing activity from Novell. They have strong products. Scott