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Agenda's Linux Based Handheld
ebroo writes: "The Linux Agenda VR3 handheld from Agenda Computing just so happens to be Linux based." Not nearly as impressive as the iPaq which I've now seen running X with handwriting recognition, but much more practical and very inexpensive. I'm not sure if you can actually buy one yet tho...
The main advantage I see this device having over Palm is in the realm of development. Palm development seems to require an expensive IDE to code in. There will be a multitude of open source IDEs developed for the Agenda platform. Tons of us geeks will flock to Linux PDA development once devices are released. When it comes down to it, people love free software. I dont wanna pay 10.00 for every little utility that someone writes [like you have to for most palm apps]. So I'd like to either write them myself, or have another developer out there make an open-source version.
-=MeMpHiStO=-possibly one of the most useful aspects of the palm is the emulator. I'd add that to the list as well.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
__________________________________________________ ___
rooooar
I got my first Palm about a year ago. I wanted a spreadsheet for it: Nothing free. OK, I'll write my own. After a week or so of looking around and reading, I had some programming docs and managed to get a very simple Hello World working. Then I was busy moving cross country and stopped.
Then I got a new Palm and bought the "Palm Programming" book from OReilly. Worked for a couple of weeks, but couldn't get a spreadsheet put together. The only chapter that deals with tables has maybe 20 pages total and doesn't have any real examples. Book returned. Also note: Figuring out which Linux-based GNU dev tools are the right ones is....non-trivial.
I also found a single slide from a slideshow at Palm's Dev site that mentioned tables. To paraphrase: "Not recommended for a spreadsheet app". OK, but what is?
Meanwhile, on my desktop I hacked a (very) simple spreadsheet engine together in about 2 hours. Yes, two hours. But I can't put a UI on my Palm and I don't need a spreadsheet on my desktop.
Which brings me to my question: Will developing for the Agenda be any simpler than for the Palm because it is using Linux? If so, I'll switch in a New York minute ("compatibility" is not an issue for me). (My other question is, HowTF am I supposed to get a free spreadsheet on my Palm?)
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http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
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With 8 meg ROM and 2 meg RAM, how can you add your own 'stuff' to the box, other than data.
If they want to support the Open Source market, they have to have something to sync *TO*. And, at this time there are MANY different things to sync to.
One thing that has NOT been pressed is the GPL in the embedded market. Here is an example of an embedded GPL box where no source has been released. To date, no action on getting the source.
It would be nice to think the GPL/Linux will protect developers who choose to develop for Unix-based PDA's, but without access to source, you run the risk of being Steve'd...just like the Newton developers did.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
I saw on their product specs that it has 16-greys, so its not quite just black & white:
240x160 pixels monochrome LCD, 16 grey scale, 2¼" x 3¼" viewable area
Actually, looking at both sites and comparing the two units on features, the Agenda seems to beat the VTech in almost every area of hardware. And on software, VTech doesn't even acknowledge the existence of PocketLinux, whereas for the Agenda, Linux is a feature they're proud of. [As you can see, I'm ignoring the iPAQ entirely --- I consider a PDA that you have to recharge every day as worthless. The 2 AAA batteries in my Palm last 3 months.]
Given the above, what was the basis for your statement suggesting the opposite?
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Now Slashdot is pushing an Agenda...
Other not-so-great lines:
At a meeting: Did everyone bring an Agenda?
After clear cases come out: Your Agenda is transparent
Man with pink handheld: Agenda Benda
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(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I couldn't agree more with all your points, especially the importance of battery life --- the iPAQ is packed with features, yet it would be totally worthless to me because it needs recharging every day. The Agenda doesn't make that mistake.
... are you suggesting to replace X11 with Squeak? What an intriguing idea. Among other benefits, it ought to cut down app size by at least 2 orders of magnitude.
Hmmm
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
It's incredible. Here everybody hailing the introduction of new Linux handhelds, yet just a few months ago, they flambayed WindowsCE for being to bulky and cumbersome. As far as I can see, there is no difference in terms of interface between the Linux handhelds and the WinCE ones. These things have to be judged on their merits, not the fact that they use Linux. The fact remains that these things will not be usefull until they figure out a decent interface. The current interfaces simply don't work on a handheld. This is evidanced by limp sales of WinCE. Even MS realizes this and is taking steps to changes it. Whether or not a name-change constitutes acceptable changes is irrelevant. At least they realize there is a problem. (That was a joke, laugh) If these new handhelds don't get clever, intuitive interfaces (just rip of Palm, it's so much easier then designing your own!) then they will have limp sales, whether or not they use Linux.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The one tidbit of information I couldn't find is the expected battery life. My Handspring Visor, with the energy conserving PalmOS, lasts for weeks on end on two AAAs. I know that beasts with bigger processors, conventional OS's, etc. tend to suck up power more quickly. This seems to fall into this latter category.
Sure, you get decent power and an open source (insert obligatory drooling here) operating system, but what else? <snip>
Not to be too rude, but that's the whole point of the open source movement. Sure, its not the absolute best as far as things like app size, but linux has just been introduced to the PDA industry. You give it a year, and it'll top all categories (including size of apps), because of the open source alone.
Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform. I have the frame of mind that, initially, it might not be the best, but because of it being open sourced, and having thousands of developers, it will become the best for what people use it for.
Please don't hurt me for my opinion,
FortKnox
-- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I could have sworn I looked at this yesterday or the day before... but maybe I am pshycic...
You are 100% correct, it was one of a number of links that were in this article on August 16, on the LinuxWorld festivities.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who was experiencing deja vu on this article.
- Mike
I can suggest you 2 alternatives :
- Buy a second-hand Atari Portfolio
- Buy a Palm Pilot and replace all with LispMe
You see, the world just happens to be a bit more colorfull than your Black'n White manicheanism.--
Trolling using another account since 2005.
The program hasn't been updated in a long time, but it's free and it's a spreadsheet.
Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform.
I've been a slashdot user for some time, and I use Linux regularly. I also have owned a Palm since before I started using Linux, and I have come to the conclusion that the explosion in Palm sales hasn't been due to whizbang features, good software, or the accessibility of the OS source. It's been about style, and popularity.
If all it took to win in the PDA market was a fast processor and some impress-your-friends functionality ("Look! The Star Wars trailer! Right here in the palm of my hand!") then WindowsCE would have walked away with the whole market years ago. Instead, Palm has introduced models at the low end to woo teenagers and college students, and models at the high end to attract fashion-conscious yuppies. You can even get a kit to mount your Palm in your luxury SUV or your golf cart. (I'm not kidding.) The OS is simple enough to use that you don't even have to worry about closing applications when you're done with them. Windows CE has had this problem until the most recent version. Desktop concepts of cascading menus, movable windows, and multiple-button clicking (how do I right-tap or middle-tap in X?) are lost on a pad-based device.
People already complain that too much software for Linux is really "Linux86," since it doesn't support SPARC, Alpha, or PPC. The pocket arena has a lot more limitations than any of those other desktop/server platforms. Don't expect to dump gcc on this thing and be able to compile programs right out of the box. In fact, with only 8MB of room, you wouldn't be able to fit very much source at all. Guess you'll have to hope it supports NFS mounting and networking -- over its serial port.
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No because Linux is ours. Linux is free (as in speech, not to mention beer). We can do with it what we will and no one can ever take it away from us or restrict it's use.
Is that not a good thing?
Would you rather have your own kitchen or a McDonald's next to your living room? (Don't answer that :^)
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Try to READ the page sometimes before you're posting silly question!
s p
From the page: "With our Rsync Cradle and QuickSync software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or Linux PC. You can also send & receive email and connect to internet."
URL: http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/details.j
Hetz (Heunique)
This device looks very promising as a Linux PDA. While I've seen plenty of posts from people whining about it's specs (66MHz CPU, 8MB RAM/2MB ROM, 16 shade greyscale screen at 240x160), they seem to be missing the point. The base model will cost $149! The iPAQ, Yopy, and other Linux-capable WinCE machines cost an order of magnitude more than $149.
That's it's strength, to me. I'd much rather have a small, cheap unit like this with OK battery life than an expensive, big (size and weight) and battery eating hog.
It's also as cheap as Palm and Visors cheapest offerings, but with a considerably faster CPU, more RAM and a bigger screen. Such is my argument (sans bigger screen) for another Linux capable PDA, the Helio.
I think it's pretty silly to put X on it, but I wouldn't call it a mistake, per se. Why? Because you can always take X off and put in Nano-X, Squeak, W, or Microwindows in instead.
Now, does anyone want to help me port Squeak to the Linux framebuffer for use on a PDA like this, so we can dump X?
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
User friendly applications
Super lightweight (4oz.)
High resolution LCD screen
Write on the entire screen
Backlit for low-light viewing
Extensive applications pre-loaded
Easy download of new applications
Open Linux O/S for unlimited new applications
Quicksync to PC with Rsync
E-mail and Net ready
Infrared transfer to other Agendas and Palm Pilot units
8MB RAM + 2MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3
8MB RAM + 4MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3+
8MB RAM + 8MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3s
What it looks like
installed apps
Somehow I doubt PalmOS hardware could run Linux since it is slow. Linux is designed for a system with an always-on CPU, right?
Since a number of their other claims seem to conflict with the current state of the product as well (e.g., handwriting recognition doesn't seem to be supported yet), I'd give them the benifit of the doubt. They'll almost certainly support Linux synchronization by the release date.
Play and design text adventures online.
Also, it touts "multitasking" as one of the features, but who the hell needs multitasking on an organizer? It's not like I'm gonna be running Word on the thing.
66 MHz machines running X windows must be dog-slow, too.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I could have sworn I looked at this yesterday or the day before... but maybe I am pshycic...
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
This device is pretty comparable to a Palm (up to 8MB RAM, 240x160 16-grey display) but the fact that it runs Linux sets it apart from the other $149 PDA's on the market. However, you'll find that Linux is no better than CE when it comes to handheld applications. Sure, you get decent power and an open source (insert obligatory drooling here) operating system, but what else? The few applications written for this thing are HUGE compared to Palm apps. 96KB for a Minesweeper game, instead of 20KB on a Palm. 200KB for a scientific calculator? You'll burn through that RAM much quicker than with a Palm, and there aren't even as many apps for it (yet).
Remember that Microsoft promised compatibility between Win32 apps and WinCE apps, due to some libraries and function calls being similar. Why, then, do WinCE apps lag so far behind Palm apps in breadth of functionality and quality?
Not to mention that for the Linux geeks here that love to tinker with hardware, the Agenda VR3 offers just serial and IR ports for communication and expandability. The keyboard looks every bit as cheap as the one made for the Palm-ripoff Royal DaVinci, which can be had for about $100.
Sorry, folks. Open source isn't taking Palm's place any time soon.
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- The devices are notacably smaller than the Palm III series, and even a little smaller than the Palm Vs. They are as thick as the Palm III, however.
- The devices use an unusual RISC processor for the CPU
- The devices use the FLTK toolkit, and any FLTK application for the Linux desktop should port reasonably easily to the Agenda.
- The application they were showing at the LWCE was a Bash shell, probably to prove these are really Linux machines.
- Input is via a on-screen QWERTY keyboard which is part of the display at the bottom. I hope it is possible to replace this keyboard by a Fitaly keyboard, or by one of the various handwriting reconition techniques.
- The devices will have 2 megs of flash and 8 mega of ram. The person showing off the unit was talking about it being possible to use the flash to store application and possibly data.
- The devices are expected to retail for $150
- They promise to release them around October
Also, PocketLinux was also at LWCE, and has struck a deal to make Linux available for a competing handheld computer (I forget the exact brand name).- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
No, you're not. I saw it recently on a promo for "Ally McBeal" when one of the characters was having an affair "on the computer."
"So was it a normal-sized computer, or.. you know, just a little Palm Pilot?"
And let's not forget the dozens of Slashdot posts we get every time there's a headline like "Play games on your Palm." Groan...
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As soon as this comes out in 802.11 format, I would seriously consider buying it -- and a Handspring Visor to go with it. It's expected this fall.
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These sound very much like the arguments for Linux vs. Windows a few years back. Based on previous experience, I predict that Linux-based PDA's will be a Palm killer (I don't feel that PocketPC really has a chance). Linux is going to get there, but it will take some time.
A really successful Linux PDA will have, in addition to the obvious advantages:
Once you have these, you have a killer - a perfect migration path from Palm to your PDA.
I wouldn't buy a Linux PDA now, but if I was in a need of a new PDA in a year, I might do that. At that time, the state of Linux PDAs won't equal that of Palm (software & hardware included). In two years, it might.
But not yet.