NASA/MSFC Director Speaks Out on Radiation Safety

TOTKChief writes "In reference to the /. story about radiation safety at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, MSFC Center Director Art Stephenson has replied to those safety allegations outlined by The Huntsville Times. It's funny to note that the actions that Stephenson has taken are exactly those recommended by Jim Bult, who was fired for whistle blowing by the NASA contractor that he worked for. Depressing."

Comments

Fav quote

[Signal 11]

I like the quote about the FedEx guy trying to walk through a linear accelerator. It makes me wonder two things:

a) Why is the linear accelerator near the reception desk where packages are dropped off?

b) It's generally a Bad Thing when you don't bother marking the doors where high radiation equipment is.

I mean, I don't know about you, but I question a place where they mark the bathroom doors appropriately, but not the doors where lethal radiation is...

Depressing^8

[tagishsimon]

From the original newspaper article, a gem of a depressing sentence was:

"In this one instance you surpassed more than eight layers of management ..."

PHB^8. Ugh.

The solution

[SlashGeek]

Having worked in manufacturing, I can relate to Jim Bult's cause. I have seen pregnant women operating injection molding machines, with PVC fumes smoking out of it, highly unsafe handeling, storage, and working practices around acids and other battery components, such as lithium. And yes, I can't think of anywhere that I havn't seen some sort of interlock defeated. One time I came into contact with a small drop if Thionl Chloride, and while not a dangerous amount, was shocked to see that there was no immediate supply of baking soda or similar neutralizer available in case of a more serious mishap. When I brought the issue up with the safty officer, I was told that Thionl Chloride is a "mild acid" and if something did happen just to "rince it off in the eyewash." Now, I'm not a chemist, but it is my understanding that it is NOT a "mild acid" by any means. Hell, any acid, particularly in high concentrations, should be handled with extreme care and with proper emergency training and equipment. To make it worse, it was being handled by untrained production workers who knew very little about the dangers of long term exposure, saftey procedures, and emergency procedures. This is just one example of the many blatent saftey violatons that I have come across and reported but still went ignored. To top it off, the places I have seen the worst violations are the ones who scream SAFETY!!! every five seconds, and consider you safe if you are breathing in toxic fumes as long as your safety glasses are on. The fact that I have refused to work at times because of conditions with no recourse from my employer just further cements in my mind that they knew they were wrong. But they wouldn't tell anyone else who didn't know better.

I support Jim Bult all the way, and I hope that he wins his case. This is just typical of how upper management in this country looks at nothing but numbers. Just because nobody has gotten injured yet doesn't mean that it's not just itching to happen. But they don't care, numbers don't lie. It must be safe if nobody has gotten hurt, yet. How much would it really cost to check interlocks every month? Not nearly as much as it would cost to settle a multi million dollar lawsuite with the family, I'm sure.

Re:The solution

[davonds]

This is unrelated to the original topic, but you need to report said safety violations to OSHA. As long as you continue to be employed by the company OSHA will investigate, and will find violations. Few people realize that the law requires weekly safety meetings for example. OSHA will not investigate if you have ceased employment.

Re:x-ray radiation

[Detritus]

True, but since the energy of a photon is proportional to its frequency, a gamma ray photon has about 10**11 times the energy of a microwave photon.

Re:risk is more losing your ability to have childr

[Alien54]

What a minute....

my dentist wears the lead apron.....

he doesn't give it to me....

hmmmmmmmmmm......

Security and Safety at MSFC [Mods, take a look!]

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at MSFC and I will say that it's been my experience that the base is covered -- no, *infested* with security propaganda. In the hallways, every bulletin board is coated in security postings, ranging from 'Wear your earplugs' to sexual harrassment complaint forms.

The Safety people work in conjunction with the IT Security Department, and have a *pervasive* role, and do extremely irritating monthly inspections.

It irks me to see stories like this. How can there be the possibility of safety problems when you have someone as anal-retentive as the Evil Safety Woman coming by randomly throughout the month, and who can and *will* disrupt work activities over such mundane violations as an uncatalogued coffee maker or an extra extension cord?

US State laws don't apply at US Federal level

[maggard]

Federal. Repeat this 100 times: Federal .

Employees, contractors, contracts, etc. are all under Federal law when you're working for a Federal agency.

Re:US State laws don't apply at US Federal level

[maggard]

What part of my subject line:

US State laws don't apply at US Federal level

confused you that we could be discussing Canada? I explictly named the subject line so that there would be no ambiguity that we were discussing US law and US law only. Heck, the whole thread is about NASA, Huntsville Alabama USA etc. but I just wanted to make it clear for the clueless that we were talking US only. Apparently not even that was enough.

Clue phone ringing!... Wait - too late for you.

I'm rarely this nasty but I'm getting sick of the sheer number of compulsive posters who are obsessed with adding material that's so obviously inane.

You are a dangerouds idiot

[Understudy]

It takes a lot of radiation to rise above safe levels.

That is if you strictly view this from a medical x-ray stand point. These are not your standard maedical xrays. They are about a 1000 times more powerful they have to photograph welds and structual componets for safety defects. And althou a medical xray is done almost with a camera like quickness. Structal xrays can be on for a long time in some cases xray video is done.

X ray rad is typically blocked by a resonably thick brick wall.

Wrong again in hospital settings all the walls must afford some level of lead shielding or must have a self contained piece of equipment with lead bariers that must be assembled. Xray levels through block walls are not low enough to count block wall as a safe barrier. One item is, lead.

The equipment used for testing items like this is huge in some cases and that is the stuff they are taking about the safety protocols on this kind of x-ray equipment are many and to be stricly enforced. One flash of an xray may not be harmful in and of itself but typicaly this equipment is taking thousnds of those flashes and often at much higher levels than normal medical xrays. If the equipment was in a room with a filled cinder block wall as it's barrier and the confrence room is on the other side of that wall(not a likely scenerio) and there is all all day staff meeeting in there. Xray machine works all day. A couple of hundred images. Those people are toast. Not nessacarily right then and there but easily within 5 years. If not due to some form of cancer and/or massive tumor outbreak, something similar.

The movie The China Syndrome was a great example of what happens with improper xrays of welds althou the movie didn't show what real weld xray exammining is like(hey it's hollywood). The premesis is the same as what is happening now with someone forging records.

There are a lot of safety procedures that go into doing this. They are time consuming and difficult but they are there for a couple of good reasons, liablity and bad PR.

dangerous solution

[Phase Shifter]

When I brought the issue up with the safty officer, I was told that Thionl Chloride is a "mild acid" and if something did happen just to "rince it off in the eyewash."

You might not be a chemist, but I am, and your safety officer seems downright incompetent to me.
The reaction when the stuff contacts water (I'm leaving out the various reactions with organic compounds) converts one molecule of thionyl chloride and two molecules of water to two molecules of HCl and one molecule of sulfuric acid, with near 100% efficiency as I understand it.

Neither hydrochloric acid or sulfuric acid are considered "weak" by any standards I've ever heard.

Re:Business Ethics and Reality

[mOdQuArK!]

Ooo..that's convenient. It also makes it very difficult to trust somebody if they're not willing to provide more than lip service about their claims of "fair and impartial" treatment for whistleblowers.

Radiation is a *good* thing

[Floyd Tante]

By exposing ourselves to high levels of radiation, we can rapidly increase the rate of genetic mutations in future generations. Sure most of them will be bad, and millions will die horrible deaths or lead lives as misshapen mutants, but those who survive will become an elite team of crime-fighting superheroes!

I saw it in X-Men, so it must be true.

-- Floyd

x-ray radiation

[Barbarian]

Just before someone confuses the issue, it's NOT about storing plutonium, or uranium, etc. It's about X-ray's.

--

Re:x-ray radiation

[Barbarian]

You wouldn't believe how many people I've had to explain that there's a difference between proposals to irradiate food and just sticking food in the microwave.

--

I think this guy worked for my boss...

[pheonix]

My greatest concern with this article is the allegation that communications relative to safety is discouraged. Nothing is further from the truth.

Nahh..we don't discourage it. We'll FIRE you for it, but we don't discourage it.

I simply do not know how I can be any clearer on this.

Try not firing people that point out safety problems.

Re:I think this guy worked for my boss...

[Detritus]

NASA managers have a great deal of influence over the personnel decisions of contractors. They can get someone fired or transferred by simply telling the contractor that they never want to see Joe Blow's face again. They can also express their deep unhappiness that Joe Blow is no longer around, and that fact might influence the performance rating, which translates into dollars, given to the contractor at the end of the current rating cycle.

Business Ethics and Reality

[Detritus]

While attending one of the periodic briefings on business ethics given by my employer, a Fortune 50 corporation, I was told that corporate policy protected whistleblowers from retaliation. Any manager found guilty of retaliating against a whistleblower would be reprimanded or terminated. When the presenter asked for questions, I asked him if he could name one manager that had been reprimanded or terminated on the grounds of retaliation against a whistleblower. He said that he would get back to me with an answer. I am still waiting, many months later.

AJT's Guest Book

[The Original Bobski]

Anybody care to "sign" AJT's Guestbook and let them know how you feel about their management practices?

Management

[XNormal]

''In this one instance you surpassed more than eight layers of management . . .''

Don't you find it frightening to think of an organization that has so many layers of management?

----