Followup On Paying Twice for Windows

4/3PI*R^3 writes: "In a recent /. posting Paying Twice for Windows we read about how Microsoft contracts obligated businesses to pay twice for Windows if they used disk imaging software. Well, it appears there has been some backlash and Microsoft has modified their position (MS-Word doc) on disk imaging software. At least for Select and Enterprise customers. This still does not help the small shops that can't afford these licensing options."

Comments

Sick of M$ licensing structure

[||Deech||]

In my company, we recently did a software audit.
After re-reading updated licensing doc. we realized that we were woefully under licensed.
So, now, $16,000 later and nothing but some paper to show for it, we realized that we prolly could have converted our entire system from NT to 'nix or BSD for what we just dumped on licenses.

Actually, we have been discussing doing the conversion to full on *nix and documenting the whole thing for others to read as a reference/encouragement. Not that it will be easy mind you, we are a full on NT, IIS, SQL shop. *all* our apps are custom, written in VB, etc. etc.
Has anyone else done this and put it on the web? I'd like to see there experiances and such before we approch our boss with such an ambitious plan..

Won't help us at all...

[weave]

At the college I work at, we get the new PCs in by the dozens, order NT workstation and CAL via our select agreement, reformat windows 98 off of it, then apply NT.

It's cheaper for us to buy via Select than to allow the computer vendor to pre-load NT on the box, but we are still buying two OSes for each box. Windows 98 which is never booted (the tax) and then NT 4.0.

You know those SPA studies that claim loses from software piracy? They should conduct a study about how much companies waste on software licenses that are never used.

Along those lines, it's often really hard to keep track of various upgrade paths for different software packages (not limited to Microsoft) so large companies usually just don't bother. Need a new version, just buy it at regular pricing... More waste...

That's the biggest reason I love Linux stuff and use it whenever I can. One less licensing headache and administrative nightmare to worry about...

Ah, a world where I am not liable for my user's actions, where I don't have to run around and conduct audits on PC desktops to ensure license compliance...

Never happen... :(

Re:Won't help us at all...

[weave]

You might want to ask a lawyer from your college, but Microsoft is on very shaky ground when they demand you have proper LICENSES... They can demand you have enough legit copies for all your machines, but being that it's all the same thing and if you buy fifty CDs, it's fifty identical copies, they can't claim that they're trying to sell a different version for each one, they hurt their case a bit.

That's not how the Select program works. You get a box full of every product microsoft sells every 45 days and no legal rights to install any of them unless you buy paper licenses for what you intall.

So when I buy 400 copies of Office 2000, all I get is one certificate that says we can install 400 copies of it on 400 separate computers. That's it.

To their credit, it's a nice program. I can actually install it right away as long as I get the license purchased within 30 days. This is good for a business who often has immediate needs. No need to wait for a product to ship. Also, no need to register the products (e.g., the annoying consumer office 2000 50-tries then you can't run it hassle).

What I am upset about is having to pay for the OEM copy of Windows 98 which is never used, just reformatted and a Select CD copy of NT is installed (and appropriate license and CLient Access License purchased...)

word doc?

[austad]

Anyone bother to check to see if the Word doc contained a tracking pixel???

Why they changed their minds...

[zpengo]

They probably realized that this wasn't exactly going to help their court cases. We should probably hit them up now for anything else we want, because in a desperate attempt to be a "kinder, gentler Microsoft" they might actually do it (all in the name of "innovation" of course).

In text format, for those with out Word

[hrieke]

Re-Imaging Licensed Microsoft Software Using Volume Licensing Media Corporate & Academic Select 345 Enterprise 45 -------------------------------------------------- -- Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers can use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel, primarily OEM and retail, with an identical version of the software. Based on customer feedback, Microsoft has changed its licensing policies to allow its Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers to use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel with an identical version of the product without the need to purchase a volume license. Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology. This change recognizes advances in how Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers are deploying Microsoft software across corporate networks and helps to simplify and speed deployment of new Microsoft products. The Change: Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers may use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel with an identical version of the product without needing to purchase a Microsoft volume license. The image can be installed locally or remotely over a network. The Benefits: Faster deployment of licensed Microsoft software products throughout an organization using the advanced deployment technologies now available for Microsoft products. Reduction in Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) for Microsoft software through easier deployment. Ability to create standard operating environment images, containing licensed Microsoft software, which can be deployed rapidly and efficiently. Key Points: Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers may use volume licensing media to re-image Microsoft software products licensed via a finished goods channel, using a local or remote image over a network Any licensed Microsoft software product contained in the product pool media received by the Select License or Enterprise Agreement customer is covered by this change Microsoft software products covered by a volume license continue to be covered by the terms of the customer's Select License or Enterprise Agreement Microsoft software re-imaged using volume licensing media but not covered by a volume license continues to be covered by the terms of the original End User License Agreement (EULA) Q&A QUESTION: What is volume licensing media? ANSWER: Media supplied by Microsoft to Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers on a regular basis as part of the agreement. QUESTION: What happens to support and warranty coverage for Microsoft products licensed via a finished goods channel that are re-imaged with volume licensing media? ANSWER: Microsoft's Select License and Enterprise Agreement programs are separate from the support offerings available from Microsoft and its partners for Microsoft software products. Customers re-imaging software licensed via a finished goods channel using volume licensing media do so at their own risk and should investigate the contractual and support implications of re-imaging and make arrangements accordingly. Customers are not entitled to Microsoft support as a result of re-imaging using Microsoft volume licensing media and should discuss any impact to their existing warranty and support coverage with their current warranty and support provider. Note: This Microsoft Volume Licensing Brief is provided for general informational purposes. For the terms and conditions governing your use of Microsoft software products, please refer to your licensing agreement.

Luckily, small businesses can slip through cracks

[Mtgman]

It's mainly the larger, enterprise wide re-imaging, which causes problems. Microsoft may check up on HP's licence issues and call them on it if they have violations. But small companies? I don't think Microsoft is going to spend the time or legal fees in tracking down a 30 person shop which has "illegal" re-imaged disks. But they may hunt down one or two to make an example of. Once this settles down a little, people will get back to business ignoring stupid license agreements.

Steven

Disk cloning? Gotta catch me first

[ppetrakis]

I worked for a small shop that used 'ghost'
extensivly. We also had OEM preload disks that we customized so that windows install was totally non-interactive. The bulk of the time was spent by the CD copying the CAB files to the harddrive. So what we did is once our preload disk copied all it's cab files and its about to reboot we stop it there and clone the disk. Now turn the machine back on and the harddrive boots into the scripted windows installer. After the OEM audit stage the machine is shutdown awaiting for the customer to turn it on for the first time and enter their license info. Is there anything wrong with this?
Not from my point of view. I could understand if MS was pissed off because shops where cloning disks that allready have been registered. Otherwise what's their problem?

Peter
--
www.alphalinux.org

Re:Disk cloning? Gotta catch me first

[ppetrakis]

After it's done installing windows it boots up in a sort of "safe mode" so OEM's can load drivers etc. There's alittle pop up window that always comes up that says "when you're ready to shutdown for good yadada, press this button" and that what change a registry key entry (if forget which) so next time the machine came up for a first time user.

Now what if you hit that button by accident? well in win 98 (not SE) you press CTL+ALT+F(2?) and that would get you back in to the OEM stage. In SE you have to do some wierd ass registry hack so it resets itself. It was so time consuming and aggrivating to do we'd rather reload the drive.

for the curious of how this exactly works visit.
oem.microsoft.com . You'll need to create yourself an account but once in you'll have access to all sorts of goodies. This is 'supposed' to be for OEM's and VAR's only but they cant verify it soooo... :-)

you need to register here first to get in,
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/

Peter
--
www.alphalinux.org

Yeah, right...

[BrK]

I like the following line from their document:
Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology

It seems like the document should also contain a line like:

Microsoft is always look at ways to improve our bottom line while raping you blind for the use of our mediocre products. We admit we got caught this time, but should the opportunity arise in the future we will gladly come at you, sans lubricant, again.

And they wonder why so many people in-the-know are such rabid supporters of the open-source/GPL/linux concept.

MS does provide it in HTML form

[Jagged]

Hasn't anyone else found this HTML version of the document on Microsoft's website?

http://www.mi crosoft.com/enterprise/licensing/docs/re-imaging_b rief.htm

All these complaints and conversions to text or HTML by others, when just some mild searching would have found the official version.

Another M$ plot (kinda OT)

[MousePotato]

In this article (annoying free registration required) at TechRepublic there is good information on Microsoft's plans to start renting thier applications to companies. The idea being that M$ now beleives that ASP's are for real and will be a better way to manage thier revenue stream. The model being a per user charge for the OS and for thier products like Back Office and the Office suite. An interesting comment in the article:

... If Sun, IBM, Oracle, and AOL all decided to band together and focus on providing the Sun StarOffice Suite on a standard Linux/Gnome platform using a rich, hosted Lotus Notes back end for a set fee per month, ($5 or less), then Microsoft would have to dramatically alter their plans to continue desktop operating system and productivity suite domination.

I realize this post is slightly off topic but its worth a look and discussion here too. Paying twice for windows is kind of like being taxed by M$ for thier crappy os. I know they are big, but, they certainly arent the government and taxation without representation is (last i checked) still illegal. My point here is that both the topic and this article detail a good portion of M$'s revenue schemes for the future. If they go for the leasing concept there will be many smaller firms looking into switching to other platforms which is good news for all of us.

HTML version online

[clgoh]

Using Word HTML conversion....

http://www.geocities.com/cgo hier/re-imaging_brief.html

Let's translate the document

[Private Essayist]

From the MS document:

"Microsoft is always looking at ways to improve the simplicity, flexibility and fairness of its licensing practices in response to evolving customer needs and improvements in technology."

Translation: Microsoft is always aware of how we are screwing our customers (though we will deny it if asked). When the uproar threatens to overturn our favorable cost/benefit ratio, we will make changes.

"This change recognizes advances in how Microsoft Select License and Enterprise Agreement customers are deploying Microsoft software across corporate networks and helps to simplify and speed deployment of new Microsoft products."

Translation: Although our customers were already deploying our software that way before this change, we need to find an excuse for making this license change now. Therefore, we are blaming our customers for this. They changed, you see, and being the responsive company that we are, we nobly changed with them. But only the big customers, you see, not the little guys who were the ones that couldn't afford this nonsense in the first place. But who cares about the little guys? We're Microsoft! We don't have to care.

"The Benefits: Faster deployment of licensed Microsoft software products throughout an organization using the advanced deployment technologies now available for Microsoft products."

Translation: Well, not 'faster' really, since they will keep doing what they were doing before, but we don't want to say that we're no longer screwing them as badly so this is how we will phrase it. Faster, yeah, that's it!

" Reduction in Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) for Microsoft software through easier deployment."

Translation: Uh, yeah, we're saving our customers money, you see! Yeah, aren't we great? And it's 'easier' this way because, *cough* they don't have to pay us twice -- uh scratch that from the record.
________________