Debian Plans New Installer For Woody

msnomer writes: "Debian is planning to replace their installer for Woody, their next release. Plans are to have it be highly modular, using debian packages as the modules. The discussion is going on in the debian-boot mailing list; you can also read the design draft on the web site." This looks very interesting -- as a recent Debian recipient (victim?) at the hands of an expert, I must say the install is pretty intimidating. This sounds like a smart area to focus on, but what would an ideal installer consist of, anyhow? Give examples, double space;)

Comments

Past Truths Still True...

[Christopher B. Brown]

I think there's still a fair bit of merit to the thesis of the essay entitled Clueless users are bad for debian. Its initial thesis is:

• Stupid Users are Bad.
• Stupid Users are Bad for Debian. therefore:
• Stupid Users should be ignored.

With that less-than-hugely-friendly beginning, it moves on to real points that are not nearly as unfriendly as that initial thesis. (Which I think is there to shock the gentle reader...)

The opinions do not remain any less strong; try out:

Eventually these maintainers, although they know they provide a powerful, complex tool, would believe that they need to convince lure more users over and gain the approval of those who are too myopic of lazy to RTFM. These great maintainers would confer and agree that perhaps the users are right and it is time to develop an easier way to install. This is the point where I say "foo!"

The author then proceeds to suggest that "keeping Debian powerful" is Job #1, whilst "making Debian more friendly" is a task that others can worry about.

I tend to agree with this; the proper priority seems to me to be to keep building a powerful and useful (and evermore vastly increasing) loosely-but-sufficiently-tightly integrated set of packages.

Making installation easy isn't forcibly part of that.

I agree with the suggestion that it might be a good idea to have an unambiguously BETTER scheme that could include queueing up installation configuration information, so that you essentially configure as much as possible before getting to the Commit This Configuration To Your System Now point, at which point disks get partitioned, filesystems get mounted, packages get dropped into place, and the likes, rather than configuring it piecemeal, one step committed after another.

It's probably always fair to say that it's a Good Thing to have a partitioning of package sets (ala "Network Server" versus "X-Developer" versus "Desktop System" versus "Web Server" ...) that perfectly agrees with whatever you, the user, wanted; as preferences are in the eye of the beholder, it's nearly impossible to get this perfect.

I'd LOVE to see a lot of the "other-than-packages-and-partitioning" configuration deployed via the install tools creating scripts that do the configuration, and which could be used to redo the configuration... My personal prejudices involve cfengine; I've set up enough cfengine scripts that any time I install Linux on a system I plan to hook up at home, the first thing I do after getting the system running is to install cfengine, do an NFS mount of my "standard" scripts, and then execute them to set up my favorite maze of NFS mounts, shell configuration, and network services. For a distribution to do this sort of thing would be pretty cool.

Re:What Debian's installer should be like:

[scrytch]

What is beautiful about FreeBSD is the post-install. I installed Redhat, then helix gnome (yes i used the horrible idea that is go-gnome, i was out of patience by then). Then I was presented with a really really pretty lot of nothing. Nothing to browse through available packages on a repository and install new ones. Heck not even an icon to grpm. No autorpm either, but that doesn't actually have any browse functionality anyway. I got netscape, and got this nice hodgepodge that was rpmfind. Browse by category, and you find the same package with slightly different versions and builds for about a dozen or so builds.

FreeBSD: cd /usr/ports. I am now a kid in a candy store.

Debian is a happy medium .. I just like my extreme :)

The installer....

[Rahga]

One size fits all works in clothing, but not necessarily software. The Debian installer is less refined and tailored to experts more than other peices of software, but so what? Technical people like technical solutions because it's easier to get desired results. The debian installer is far more flexible and usuable in unique situations than every other distro I've seen. If it's too much for you, get someone else to install it or wait for an alternative installer. Would you do anything less when it comes to rebuilding an engine or painting your house? As long as there's a choice in installation options, though, I'm okay with making a simpler interface. I just don't want to, by analogy, be forced to paint my house with a eyeliner....

Re:Good for them

[Doviende]

It would probably do you some good to read the Debian Social Contract. It explains many of these things. I'll give a brief refresher as i go through your comment.

they're an often politically obnoxious organization threatening to push away corporate newcomers to the Linux movement

That's silly. I work at a company that makes a commercial distribution of debian, with some custom add-ons (the company is Stormix). Also, here's a quote from the Social Contract:

We won't object to commercial software that is intended to run on Debian systems, and we'll allow others to create value-added distributions containing both Debian and commercial software, without any fee from us. To support these goals, we will provide an integrated system of high-quality, 100% free software, with no legal restrictions that would prevent these kinds of use.

So, you see, Debian has explicitly stated that they are trying to make sure anyone can make a derivative work without being encumbered by bad licenses

And because it's GPLed like everything else from Debian,

According to the Social Contract, any software written for Debian must be under license that meets the Debian Free Software Guidelines. This could be BSD license, or MPL, or numerous other licenses...it doesn't have to be GPL. GPL just seems to be the most common choice.

even if they try to change future liscensing, this distribution will make for at least one more before they do so. Let's hope they never pursue that course.

The social contract specifically says that Debian's priorities are the Users and Free Software. If Debian "sold out" or some such non-sense, it would cease to be Debian. There will never be a non-free release of Debian.

So, don't worry about getting one more free release of Debian before it goes sour. It just won't happen.

-Doviende

"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."

Network setup

[grappler]

Now maybe I hit return twice when I thought I hit it once, but I just installed the lates stable Debian on my computer (which uses a regular ethernet card as a network connection) from the CD and I saw nothing in the installation that had anything to do with setting up networking. When I booted, networking didn't work. I had to go into the config files (which were frustratingly different from the redhat layout which, while not bad, was frustrating because I didn't know where to find anything).

I'd just like it to get the network settings when you install.

The ideal install?

[Malcontent]

Well I guess ideally the installer ought to do the minimum amount required to get the OS running with apt or dselect. Then you can go crazy installing whatever else you want or need. One CD rom contains the OS and another (set?) contains all the packages you could possibly want. I prefer this minimilistic approach to the install-just-about-everything method most other distros take.

A Dick and a Bush .. You know somebody's gonna get screwed.

Re:The ideal install?

[Azog]

Actually, I kind of like the Mandrake installer, but it's too limiting. But Debian could get some good ideas and code from it, and then improve on it.

For those of you who haven't seen it... it boots off CD, quickly starts a Linux kernel with framebuffer support, and then starts X on top of that. After picking what language you want for the install, the next question is: choose Regular, Custom, or Expert installs. From that point on it's pretty slick. It autodetects most PCI cards, and sets up X for you. You can also back up at any point, and there is a text mode version as well.

Anyway, what I think would be good for Debian is something similar to start with, but after answering the language question, instead of just Regular, Custom, Expert, a really detailed menu would be nice.. something like this:

Choose which ever of these descriptions fits you best. Don't worry, if you change your mind you can back up. These choices just set defaults, so if you're not sure which one is best, just pick one that seems good, and you will be able to customize your install afterwards.

1. I'm really an expert..
\- and I want to see all the possibilities.
\- I'm setting up a lot of computers, and have a saved install config file on the network or on a floppy...
\- but I want to customize from that.

2. I'm New to Linux...
\- I don't know anything about my computer. Please autodetect everything and don't ask hard questions.
\- I'm a normal home user with a modem
\- I'm a normal home user with ADSL/Cablemodem
\- I have a LAN and want to share and secure the internet connection.
\- I have Windows installed and want to import all my settings to Linux.
\- I know Windows pretty well and want to see all the Linux options, with explanations.

3. I'm an experienced Linux User...
\- I've got loads of hard drive space. Install everything and I'll sort it out later.
\- I want a customized Gnome environment
\- I want a customized KDE environment
\- I want to choose a window manager and pick individual packages
\- I just want development tools and source code.

4. I'm setting up a server...
\- Secure Web Server with Apache, etc.
\- Samba server
\- NFS server
\- MySQL or Postgres SQL server
\- other choices
\- customized server

5. I'm building an embedded system...
\- Full development environment, plus another partition with one of:
\- Bare minimum, just enough to boot.
\- Boot into stripped down X 3.3.6
\- Boot into stripped down X 4.0.1
\- (more choices)...

etc.

The idea here would that the user would make a choice at the beginning of the process that would guide all the following choices by providing defaults, but not restrict it.

Autoinstalling software for CDR's, auto-downloading encryption software, and automatically connecting to find updates would all be slick.

Mandrake also has a pretty slick graphical disk partitioning system. It allows you do anything you want, but also has an "auto allocate" which sets up root, swap, and home partitions. I think Debian would do well to take that, but change the auto allocate default to do the "right thing" depending on the user's earlier choice of what kind of installation they are doing.

I'm sure Red Hat, Caldera, Slackware, and everyone else has good ideas too.

If Debian takes all the good ideas from the other distributions and polishes them, they basically can't go wrong.

I think that there's a tendancy among the linux distributions to a "Not Invented Here" syndome which is actually really strange in the open source world. Debian could break that pattern by using and improving good, GPL'ed stuff from the commercial distributions.


Torrey Hoffman (Azog)

Re:The ideal install?

[Azog]

Please explain how this would be even remotely possible.

Sure! I think there's already linux distributions that do this.

Basically, you would do it by mounting the NTFS or FAT partition that holds windows, from the Linux install. That's easy. Then you read parts of the Windows registry - a little harder, but certainly not impossible.

From that, you can find out the following information:

- what kind of sound card, video card, monitor, ethernet card, modem, etc. the user has.

- What their network settings are, or their ISP phone number, or their email passwords...

- What screen resolution and color depth the user likes.

- All sorts of other hardware and software information, like power management settings, how they have their Palm Pilot connected - do they have a scanner, what kind, a printer, a digital camera... Some of that stuff can be autodetected, but getting hints from the registry can't hurt.

Besides reading the registry, you could import the contents of their Internet Explorer Favorites and set them up as bookmarks in Mozilla.

You could go to the "My Documents" folder, grab all the files there, back them up, and set them up in Linux all ready to go...

You could grab their color scheme and set it up for KDE or Gnome. You could try to pick a similar screen saver. You could get their background wallpaper and their winamp skin. If they have the toolbar set to autohide, you can make the KDE/Gnome panels autohide. If they have Quake III, you could go out to the net and grab the Linux executables to set up Quake III for linux...

There's really no limit, it's just a matter of writing code for it. Most slashdot readers would have little use for something like this, but for people who have been using Windows forever, it could be a very friendly, reassuring thing to have Linux come up for the first time and look very similar.

This would be a great thing, because a majority of Windows users don't know how Windows is set up. They don't know what their hardware is, or how their email is set up, or any of that. They set it up once, or had their kid set it up, and now they're helpless. Linux could go and find all that information. Installing Linux on top of Windows would be almost as easy and seamless as upgrading from Windows NT to Windows 2000.


Torrey Hoffman (Azog)

Plan for 2002

[eAndroid]

In 2002, when woody will be released, technologies in Installation will be more advanced, please keep this in mind. Users may be more demanding. With 2 years (or more!) to plan ahead, the Debian installer should be great!

Re:Plan for 2002

[matman]

the package and paragraph thing is exactly what debian's deselect does. It also displays currently installed version, the version that's available from your package sources, etc.

Re:Plan for 2002

[Fist Prost]

I would reccomend looking at the shiny spots and faults alike on the more popular (read:more often installed) OS's out there and try to improve upon those concepts. Above all else, try to have "glossy-eyed newbie" and "I can install Windows" modes as well as the "I want to fdisk my hardrive in the most primitive editor you got" type, which a lot of folks still prefer.

For the newbie/assisted install, try to probe for as much stuff as you safely can to minimize confusion. Also keep in mind that lines like;

It appears you have a [fxy339 10/100+due/ipx with added dongle support, revision 667], is this correct? [y/n]

Will scare the living bejesus out of someone who's never installed an OS before, so maybe don't have things like that in the first timer section. Just try to set it up for them and they can maybe try the next level install with a friend if nothing works right.

Another thing, half the time an intermediate user will find they forgot to do something right on the network setup or maybe the sound card doesn't work right after installation, post install setup is muy importante. The approach earlier Red Hat (can't say about now) and slackware distros is nice. Individual parts of the setup (like modemtool, soundtool, netconfig, etc) may be run from the CLI. Try to integrate this into the setup program itself, so the person can just type "setup" and reconfigure any part of their system from curses or X, without having to know the name of the specific thing they're looking for.

One last suggestion I'd like to make is the applications selection. Try to get a 1 paragraph blurb about each package offered, and then group all the similar apps together for selection, an example would be;
Word Processors(check any or all
that interest you)-
[] VI. The classic text editor of Unix
hackers. Has a lot of ~'s in it. Don't
be frightened however, you'll get it.
[]Emacs. The classic text editor of Unix
hackers. Click on "tools" then "read
news" to find interesting porno.
[]Pico. The weenie text editor. It has
all the commands at the bottom. Check
this box and be a weenie.

The user could check off any that interest them, and then remove them from their system at a later time simply by returning to setup (see previous paragraph) and entering the "apps" section. Just a few suggestions for the ideal installer. Stea^h^h^hUse them as you will.


Fist Prost

"We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."

A debian users wishlist

[matman]

I've been using debian since kernel 2.0.30 came out. (came out, not included in distribution). I've installed it time and time again, and each time, the installer has been fairly consistant. I wouldnt mind them changing it, as long as they make it as flexable as the current one.

Although I cant really complain about debian's install, I can suggest some things that would have helped me out on some occasions.

1. the ability to install files from an ftp server, or an http server, or something like that. (looks like it's going to happen so far as the draft indicates)
2. a little bit more flexability in kernel module selection. More modules in the list, more organization, more explanation, more indication of what info the module may need, etc. A really nice thing would be an index of what hardware uses what module - for example, turtle beach tropez plus uses the crystal audio sound driver, etc.
3. maybe a documentation disk - should contain some of the kernel docs, some walk through, etc.
4. maybe a utility disk that contains a few more utilities - a partition resizer, command line ftp, lynx, etc
5. the ability to pause an install - maybe save it to a diskette?
6. better handling of bad media. it sucks to be installing the base system, and the last floppy is broken, and you've got to start all over again (see point 5)
7. default to security. dont install services by default, no matter what package group the person selects.
8. the 'task' packages should be listed seperately - it sucks to have to scroll thru pages of package lists when you're not sure what sorts of things that you're interested in... maybe some sorta shortcuts/links to package catagories (ie games-nonfree or something)

Thats about all that i can think of. I'm not really complaining, but these could make my life easier sometimes - not that i couldnt create them myself, but when they're part of the distribution media, its easier.

Debian Keyboard

[small_dick]

Leave the installer the way it is, and ship the distro with a "Debian Installation Keypad" -- it's a pressure sensitive mousepad with the word "ENTER" silkscreened on it. Just pound your fist on it about 100 times, and your done.

But seriously, I think it would be best to let the user describe what they want to use the system for, then allow customization from that point forward.

also might be nice to let the knuckle draggers choose the classic install up front.

Re:More Control in a Reasonable Fashion

[SquadBoy]

This has to be a troll but I'll bite. I don't know what version th poster was using but I can do a network install of 2.2 on a DSL line in just over a hour and that is with alot of stuff. X, Helix Gnome all that good desktop crap. The next point is that if you work it right the 2.2 installer gives you more control over what you want than any installer I've ever seen. Just choose simple install and do not select any tasks or roles. This will drop you to a login prompt and then let you apt-get what you want and only what you want. Debian can be *very* small if you know what you are doing.

Re:An installer should...

[SquadBoy]

Yup my only problem with the Debian installer (2.2) is X setup. If you install X it should be easier to set up. Other than that it is pretty sweet. And if you really want to do a custom install (once again 2.2) just choose simple and then don't select anything from the lists. It will drop you to a login prompt and allow you to apt-get what you want and only what you want. With the exception of X having been a pain to get up and going it is really really sweet.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Debian (Installation)

[resistant]

The ideal installer would automatically brew extra-strong coffee at critical points, and come with a heavy-duty hanky for when your hard drive suddenly no longer boots.

Re:Good for them

[Doug McNaught]

but on the other hand, they're an often politically obnoxious organization threatening to push away corporate newcomers to the Linux movement.

I haven't seen any evidence of this myself. Care to provide examples?

-Doug

Re:Geez... enough.

[mikpos]

First off: Corel is the one that's making (was making?) a Debian-based distro, right? I often get Corel and Caldera mixed up. If I'm wrong, s/Corel/Caldera/g for this post.

I don't think *any* operating system or *any* distro should try and tailor to too large a population. This is a big problem for Windows. Windows was a *great* operating system for, say, 30% of the population. But Microsoft doesn't seem to be happy until it gets 100% of the market share. Hence, Windows isn't really "great" for anybody; it's just "pretty good" for most people.

I wouldn't want to see Debian fall into the same trap. Pick an audience and go with it; don't try to be everything. Maybe Debian won't be the distro that Joe Sixpack uses. Big deal. Corel will be there to pick up that part of the population. Debian is tailored towards hackers; Corel is tailored towards Joe Sixpack. Both are similar (based on the Debian package manager) and both do what they do well. Everybody wins.

Of course that's an idelic situation and we're not there yet. But I get annoyed whenever Debian (or whoever) does something cool and then someone shouts "but they're neglecting demographic X!" I highly doubt that there will ever be a single product that will be good for everybody.

What Debian's installer should be like:

[pschmied]

FreeBSD.org.

Seriously though. FreeBSD really has a great way to install. It's not as colorful, or graphical as some others, but it really is the epitome of easy--if you know what packages you want.

I usually start with the standard install, select the X-Developer package, the ports and then any stray packages.

Then for those truely wonderful programs that they can't fit on one CD (yummm.... LyX is good.) I cd /usr/ports/category/portname, then make install.

FreeBSD is really a great system for novices, or expert people who like things to Just Work(tm).

I think that FreeBSD really represents the best of the Ncurses based installers.

Whatever they do, I hope they stick with the ncurses install. It is just as easy as the graphical system and a whole lot less more reliable.

-Peter

Re:What Debian's installer should be like:

[Upsilon]

Um...are you sure you installed Debian? Because from your description it sure doesn't sound like you did. First of all, you say that "basic configuration is 10 clicks away". Last time I installed Debian the installer didn't even have mouse support. Maybe they've changed it since then, but I was under the impression the installer has remained identical (which is the whole reason this new installer is news). Furthermore, you said you didn't have to select packages, but I know of no way to install Debian without selecting packages. There are common groups of packages so that you don't have to select every package individually, but there is still some package selection involved.

But the thing which REALLY makes me doubt you installed Debian is the fact that you say you spent $50 for it. Huh? Debian is free. Sure, VA Linux packaged a version of it, but the most I've ever seen that sell for is around $30. How the heck did you pay $50 for it? And $10 for the source CD? That's nonsense. You can get source CDs for about $2 plus shipping if you shop online.

Are you sure it was Debian?

Re:Good for them

[Seth Cohn]

Total Flamebait.

Go read the Social Contract, and you'll see there will NEVER be an attempt to 'change' the license in that way.

As for obnoxious, the Debian crowd is the most idealistic and more power to us!!!! I found your post more obnoxious than most (but not all) of the stuff you'll see on Debian lists. And Debian list are renowned for Flamewars :)

Geez... enough.

[spankenstein]

Everyday there is something negative about the Debian installer here on slashdot. Ok... so some people don't like it.

In my opinion it's really not, and never has been that bad. What it asks is very straight forward. You load drivers (through a menu) partition your disk, set up your network and go. Just because they don't auto detect your hardware doesn't make the install hard.

I actually started using Debian in '97 because the install was actually straight forward and well documented. I had tried slack and Redhat but they wouldn't cooperate.

And in comparison to that other os, Debian is cake. I don't know where it ever started that windows is easy to install... but it isn't. Ever installed windows on a board where the specific IDE chipset doesn't have the specific driver? Well your screwed unless you have mscdex.exe handy. Windows wouldn't even install on my most recent box.

Just because Debian leaves you some choices doesn't mean that it's hard.

Article correction

[quickquack]

Correction:
This looks very interesting -- as a recent Debian recipient (victim?) at the hands of an expert, I must say the install is pretty intimidating. This sounds like a smart area to focus on, but what would an ideal installer consist of, anyhow? Give examples, double space;)

I believe you meant to say:
Debian is the #1 VA Linux distribution.

Just wanted to let everyone else know that a mistake occured.
------------

Re:Is it free?

[Phokus]

It seems that there are a few people still in the dark about how Debian's distribution fits together. We have 2 archives, and each has 3 sections. There is 1 official section in each archive. The two archives are the "regular/low fat/most of the stuff" archive, and the "non-US/don't mind me/watch out for the helicopters" archive. Software that breaks the US export control laws goes into the non-US archive. Inside each archive are 3 sections, called "main", "contrib" and "non-free". The only part of the archive that we "officially" support is the "main" section. Every piece of software in the "main" section is compliant with the Debian Free Software Guidelines. This software is all GPL, MPL, BSD, [insert favourite free licence here] stuff. The "contrib" section stuff *would* be in the "main" section, except that it for some reason relies on something from the "non-free" section. "non-free" stuff is stuff that we are allowed to distribute, but does not fall under our Free Software Guidelines. The official Debian cd images that come out with each distribution contain the regular/main, regular/contrib, non-US/main and non-US/contrib stuff, along with all the source. Of course, often to use much of the contrib stuff, you need to grab non-free stuff (many packages however only partly rely on non-free stuff, such as driver modules, this still gets them into contrib, but you can use them without non-free).

For me?

[w3woody]

I must be tired, but when I read the headline, the first thought that went through my mind was "why did they go through so much trouble for me?"

- Bill Woody