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Honda unveils Fuel Cell powered car
fprintf writes "According to an article at cars.com Honda has unveiled a fuel cell powered car to the world press. The article is not very in depth about the technology, but exudes the possibilities. There are comments about the engineers working on the safety of hydrogen storage. Most interestingly, they say that 2003 or 2004 are the target dates for commercial availability. Cool!"
First, you'll get the "shut down the oil industry and our economy goes to pot" argument. Which in the US is particularly funny because we don't grow our own oil. I know this for a fact because during 1990 I photocopied a stack of oil leases twenty-three stories high that were being sold off and shut down, so that we could continue to funnel all our resources into getting it from Kuwait. Whoops!
After that petroleum industry advocates will likely give a long, complex argument to the effect that, while it's agreed that it's a finite resource, they want you to share their Pollyanna optimism that we will always be able to find just that little last bit of petroleum to feed our habit. Often I've seen it expressed like this: "we aren't running out of oil, we're just waiting for the next good way to extract it from the earth." While that may be currently true, it's also true that we use oil for other things than burning (plastics come to mind) and we maybe could make more effective use of the stuff than torching it at twenty or so miles per gallon. Also I hasten to point out that when and if the end of the oil economy does come it will be much uglier if we don't prepare for it than if we do. Can you just imagine the entire city of New York without electricity or transportation?
Okay, I can believe that there could be a combination of Al and Fe2O3 in the hindenburg. But as those that have played with thermite knows that the activation energy is quite high, even for highly powdered stuff. I would have a hard time believing that the aluminum in paint and the rust from the structural elements would concievably react. I have an even harder time believing that the hindenburg was designed to leak hydrogen. Those people didn't want to explode, but they also didn't want to crash.
Do a search in google for "hindenburg addison bain" and read for yourself. Addison Bain is the name of the NASA engineer who did the research.
Re the leaking hydrogen, the skin of the bags containing the hydrogen was not completely impermeable, especially to hydrogen being the smallest molecule, and there was always going to be leakage, which needed to be dispersed from inside the main skin of the ship. In addition, hydrogen would also vented to maintain trim.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
...and I think I'll stay with my 1970 MGB. Twin SU carbs that were conceived in the 1940's, a nice loud exhaust, and the wind in my hair.
That Honda looks like an anal probe on a Civic that went horribly wrong.
Automobiles utilising this technology would definately help us in the battle against pollution, however the problem of creating cheap vehicles using this technology would definately be a problem. Supposidly they will begin in the 50k price range, and that will definately be a factor in how quickly they come into mainstream use.
The way gas prices have been this summer however...
UBU
I must admit that this is nice, but the engineering and scientific problems will probably take a while longer than the engineers predict. (When was the last time a non-computing technology prediction actually verified?)
Even with the problem with hydrogen's explosiveness, I think that this is the way to go. The one big question I have, assuming that this technology comes to fruition is where would the hydrogen to power our cars come from? Are there some good current sources that we could tap, like some current industries? I'm aware of the splitting of the water molecule to get H2, but from what I remember, it's difficult to get any reliable amounts out without a significant energy input.
Also, dealing specifically with the explosiveness of hydrogen, could it be more harmful than current hydrocarbons (HCs)? Again, I'm not a chemist (in fact, I rather dislike it...), but isn't the reaction between hydrogen and oxygen significantly faster than that between HCs and oxygen? Granted, this might increase the initial explosion, but there wouldn't be all the additional problems with the slow burn of HCs. But again, I may be entirely wrong.
One last issue is the water vapor output. While we currently worry about CO2 as a greenhouse gas, H2O can be just as bad. However, given the lifetime of H2O in the atmosphere is on the order of days and CO2 is on the order of months and years, this might not be too much of problem. But from a meteorological point of view, it would be interesting to see what a urban center emitting extra quantities of water vapor would do to local weather/climate changes. (Not like I would trust current climate models to tell me my weight even if I gave it to them as an input...)
Remember, it wasn't so much the hydrogen in the blimp as the thermite covering on the balloon...
Jon Katz - the worlds biggest waste of time and bandwith.
According to the article, the car is a joint venture between Honda, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, and 'other automakers'. One of its biggest drawbacks is its limited range (110 miles before it must be refueled.)
Well, DiamlerChrysler introduced this car in early 1999, and it supposedly has a range of 280 miles.
Don't believe the hype.
Browser? I barely know her!
I commend Honda for this but I am still extremely disappointed in general society.
I thought that if anything would incite alternative fuel/practices discussion, the recent petrol shortages in western nations would have done so. I watch CNN daily and I heard not 1 single reference to the necessity for increased R&D or anthing related! It was all "We need a way to not only pump our poor planet dry, but also provide this non-renewable resource for such a low price that people waste as much as they possibly can."
I'm not a "dirt eating tree unf'er" or something, but I do have a fucking brain. Our society is completely reliant upon petrol and I think it goes to show how dense and narrow minded the majority of people are when alternative fuels and increased R&D are not even discussed. And don't post a reply saying that, while that's important, we need to solve the current issue of fuel shortages. Of course I know that, but it appears that there is zero focus on the mid to long term solutions, the truly important issues!
Hello, my name is x and I hate people.
Regards
This really isn't anything new, I belive that Toyota has had their version of this in Europe for a period of time, and is soon releasing it in America.
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How Jaded Are You?
Assuming that's fixed by the time of their proposed commercial rollout in 2004 or so, I'd be more than happy to drive a car that will remind me of the Hindenberg every time I get in.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's not the same, but still. Doesn't hydrogen make you a little nervous?
The fuel cell technology for these vehicles comes from Ballard Power Systems, in Burnaby (suburb of Vancouver), Canada. They can be used in buses, trucks and submarines!!!, for stationary generators, and more. Try these links for more info.
Mass transit.
http://www.ballard.com/bus_demo.asp
Some other cars.
http://www.ballard.com/trans_app.asp
Mass transit.
http://www.ballard.com/bus_demo.asp
Who mentioned napalm? (other than yourself) Moltov cocktails do not contain napalm.
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
Why bother wasting your money on Honda's expensive automotive technology. You can get a new VW Golf or Jetta with an awesome turbo-diesel engine and loaded for well under $20K. They are EPA rated at 42/49 MPG, and have 90HP / 156 lb-ft. torque from the factory. "Chips" are available to soup these up to 115HP / 190 lb-ft. @ 2000 RPM - leave smoldering black tire marks for days. The kits even claim better than 50 MPG! Range on a tank of fuel: 700 miles. My older VW diesel has 200K miles and counting - original engine, original clutch. 'nuff said. Yeah, ok, so I'm a VW freak ;) Honda sucks.
Out of order? Fuck! Even in the future nothing works! - Dark Helmet (Rick Moranis) "Spaceballs"
>No one is seriously contemplating storing Hydrogen in an automobile, remember the Hindenburg? Most car companies are opting for a technology similar if not the same as Ballard Power's solution
No, the Hindenburg exploded because of an unfortunate application of Aluminum metal on the outside and Iron Oxide on the inside of the skin of the zepplin. These are the components of Thermite. A static charge built up and when it was released it caused the ballon to start on fire and its eventual crash landing. The hydrogen was only a small part of the problem. The Hindenburg disaster would have happened even if helium had been used.
Impersonating Tycho from Penny Arcade since before there was a PA.