Let the Mozilla bashing begin?
by
robinjo
·
· Score: 5
It's weird to see all this Mozilla bashing going on. Yes, it has taken a long time and yes, it's not read yet but how many of you Mozilla bashers have really given Mozilla a try? A good one instead of "it segfaulted at startup, so it sucks"?
Netscape PR3 won't be installed on my computer. Nope, I really don't need all the AOL stuff. That's why I have been downloading Mozilla daily builds and actually use them more than the old Netscape. And let me tell you, the latest builds have been impressive in both speed and stability.
So here's how you should do it. Go to Mozillazine and check the build bar there. Go read the comments and choose a nice build. That way you can actually choose not to download a bad build. If one of those crashes too much, delete your.mozilla-directory. Chances are you have an old one which is not necessarily compatible.
That's it. Oh, and don't only talk the talk. Walk the walk and submit bugs instead of just complaining about beta-versions.
Even though I won't buy Opera, it's nice to see some competition. I strongly suspect they will have a hard time with Mozilla, though.
Isn't it a bit early? GCC 3.0 isn't out yet
by
Christopher+B.+Brown
·
· Score: 3
... Which is actually of some actual importance in light of the fact that one of its release criteria is that of having
a stable ABI.
This is quite a significant issue, as libraries compiled with one release of G++ by one person may not work with another release of G++ by someone else.
This appears to be the root of the problems I had running Opera; it would generally run OK until I actually tried to load in a web page, at which point it would discover it had just tried to violate a segment. That was with the statically-linked version; a dynamically-linked version will be at even greater risk of ABI violations...
-- If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I can't disable JavaScript without going into such a paranoid mode that I can't even download anything...
1. Go to Tools -> Internet Options
2. Select the "Security" tab
3. Select the "Internet" zone
4. Click "Custom"
5. Scroll down to "Active Scripting"
6. Set it to disabled
7. Close out of all dialogs, saving changes.
Netscape crashes my machine sooo hard (in Windows and Linux) that only the power switch can bring the machine back to life...
Dude, if a browser can lock up your Linux box that hard, you must have some serious system-level issues going on.
--
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
FAQ as it list a rather extensive list of platforms they are "actively persuing". The list includes Alpha, Sparc and Power PC to name just a few.
-- Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Long long time, and attitudes
by
Xugumad
·
· Score: 4
I would like to point out that when Opera first looked into porting their browser to other OSes, the response from Linux users was hardly encouraging (actually, I beleive the Amiga users were the biggest fans of the idea).
Perhaps if people sent encouraging e-mails to Opera, or any other company that is developing for Linux, rather than complaining that beta software *gasp* has bugs in it, we might get software a little quicker!
Sorry, but Slashdotters, as a group, seem incredibly negative. On the one hand you complain that Microsoft restrict choice, and then someone asks why Opera bother porting their browser to Linux...
And someone else said they would give Opera the same chance they gave all the other browsers; if it coredumps, they go back to Lynx. My apologies if that person did actually mean they'd do that test for the release version, but I suspect they intend to run the beta version, which undoubtably will coredump, and will go back to Lynx without giving Opera a reasonable chance.
This isn't actually meant as a flame, this is meant to give people more of a perspective. In particular, if someone from Opera reads Slashdot (and is that all that unlikely), I wouldn't be exactly suprised if the Opera for Linux project gets pushed even lower down their priority list.
A lot of people here are saying that Mozilla is competition for Opera - I guess it is. Personally, I think Konqueror is closer to home. It's VERY fast, uses QT2.2 etc.
For anyone who hasn't tried Konqueror (part of kde2base) in a while, you really ought to. I've been playing with the daily builds for Mandrake 7.2 and it has gotten a LOT better at renedering pages over the last month or so.
Personally, a year from now I can see two main browsers in the Unix world:
Mozilla (ns6, galeon, nautilus etc.) and Konqueror. Really, Konqueror is THAT good. It's amazing to me that the KDE guys have put together such a great product suite in a few years. It's true that they don;t have to worry about non-unix ports, but they really desrve some recognition.
Anyway, one nice thing to see about Opera was that it was 2MB for the static version and only 1.1MB for the dynamically linked version. When was the last time we saw a 1MB browser that had that many features? (Galeon doesn't count - you still need mozilla.)
I compile and run KDE2 and Konqueror on a P/133 with a mere 32 megs of RAM, so I find it hard to think of it as bloated. Yeah, it's a little slow, especially when I try to run Apache and an emacs session so I can edit, serve, and view webpages all on my laptop (web development is more fun at the park than in the computer room), but it runs and is amazingly stable-- especially given the beta status of all the object code for the entire K environment.
[Warning: Zealous rant ahead] I have no interest in paying for proprietary software when I could give that same money to the developers of Free software, so how much is the Opera registration price? In fact, I find confounding the constant expectation of Linux users that anything with a GPL-type license should be gotten for $0, while it's perfectly fine to shell out $$ for software that limits freedom just because they are supporting Linux. It's this exact attitude that helps starve people writing Free software, while enriching those who have made it clear that they don't care about your freedom. For instance, I'd love to test Opera on one of my faster Linux machines at home, but it's a PPC-based system, so no luck. If the software were Free, I'd at least be able to try to compile it on that machine. So instead of praising the Opera team, I guess I'll ignore them and get back to figuring out which Free software projects I use the most and making sure I'm assisting them financially.
I've been using Opera for years, although I wish it was open source, I didn't mind paying. Opera allows people that would otherwise NOT use their computer (because it is so slow) a web browser that is functional and useable.
Many of us are lucky, we are running on systems that are less then 3 years old. Others aren't as lucky, and there are a great many people that can't afford even the most basic new computers. In rural areas where I live people spend 350 bucks for an old P100 monitor speaker and modem and they have to make payments on that! Opera at least gives them a Browser they can use. Even see people use it on a 386, that's impessive.
It's a welcome addition to the Linux community. It gives some other browsers competition If Opera is like it's windoze cousin, it's very lite and fast. I'll have to fire it up an old 486 and see how it runs in Linux. It seems Opera is extending the life of some of my hardware;)
-- "Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
Re:Long, long, long...
by
AussiePenguin
·
· Score: 3
There is a slight difference... Opera is porting a pre-written browser to Linux... Mozilla is practically rewritting a browser from scratch!!
The fact that not only are both Trolltech and Opera from Norway, but they also have offices in the same building may have something to do with it:) I'd like to see a GTK version too. Roll on the final release (and version 4.1)...
Paul
-- Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Quick impressions from Opera 4.0Beta Dynamic
by
Rendus
·
· Score: 3
bash-2.04$ time opera
Segmentation fault
real 0m21.607s
user 0m11.890s
sys 0m1.060s
This happened several times, taking anywhere from 0.01 seconds to about 30 seconds, but then it works great for awhile, even when going to the same websites (slashdot, etc). Dunno.
Sorry, this will come over as flamebait, and yet it's a rant. Mod me down now, and don't bother reading any further.
I have real problems with _all_ the current browsers, and always try new ones on the hope that they are better than the ones I've tried before.
all of these include using the latest 'stable' version. And I only mention my most recent annoyance, often there are many...
IE - I can't disable JavaScript without going into such a paranoid mode that I can't even download anything, even.tex and.tiff files! I also find it unwieldy to use.
Netscape - crashes my machine sooo hard (in Windows and Linux) that only the power switch can bring the machine back to life.
Amaya - dropped core within 5 minutes of running it. lather rinse repeat... Also has a slightly wierd feel to the UI.
Mozilla - dropped core within 10 minutes of using. lather rinse repeat... Also suffers from too much clutter which removes vital inches from my desktop (hey, my girlfriend's blind and likes 640*480 on my 21" monitor) OK I can turn it off, but that means having to navigate arounf another maze of configuration options, I've only just become comfortable finding options in Nutscrape.
So, I'm giving Opera the same chance that I gave the others. As soon as I start seeing core files, I'll go straight back to Lynx, which for most of the kinds of sites I visit (boring technical ones).
Do I have anything good to say about any browsers?
Yes -
Netscape - Great Newsreader, my favourite ever.
Mozilla - Great cookie/image management, really
handy.
Lynx - Never had a problem with it at all.
Shame about the web-pages though...
...but not for Alpha, Sparc, or (in my case)
PowerPC. I guess they don't have any alternative-platform test boxes, or they don't
want to deal with the (probably minimal)
cross-platform issues right now, which I can
understand. Too bad the source isn't available so we could help them
out with that.:-)
On the other hand, even though it's of no use to
me, I have to give them points for including a
statically linked binary -- no need to install
Qt only to try out their browser for an hour or
so.
I get annoyed when I see people talk about how large/small a program is without actually quantifying it. Here, I will do my part. I loaded Netscape 4.75 and Opera 4.0b1 and went to Slashdot (this very article). Their memory footprint can be seen below.
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND 731 root 15 0 14392 13M 1044 S 0 0.9 21.8 31:48 X 14806 chris 7 0 13164 12M 8088 S 0 0.0 20.8 0:07 netscape-com 883 chris 0 0 12172 11M 2232 S 0 0.0 18.0 22:05 xemacs-X11 14785 chris 0 0 7172 7172 4392 S 0 0.0 11.3 0:09 opera 14786 chris 0 0 7172 7172 4392 S 0 0.0 11.3 0:00 opera 14530 chris 0 0 4424 3740 2608 S 0 0.0 5.9 0:05 kfm 14822 chris 0 0 3724 3724 3148 S 0 0.0 5.9 0:00 netscape-com 654 xfs 0 0 3472 3052 988 S 0 0.0 4.8 1:01 xfs 735 chris 2 0 3252 2276 1708 S 0 0.0 3.6 0:43 kwm 771 chris 0 0 2848 1844 1260 S 0 0.0 2.9 0:43 kpanel 14782 chris 17 0 868 868 664 R 0 2.3 1.3 0:05 top
In short, Opera looks a lot smaller than Netscape, even when statically linked to Qt 2.2. Mozilla usually needs 30MB or so. Anyone care to post numbers for Galeon and Konqueror?
Slashdot Mirror
It's weird to see all this Mozilla bashing going on. Yes, it has taken a long time and yes, it's not read yet but how many of you Mozilla bashers have really given Mozilla a try? A good one instead of "it segfaulted at startup, so it sucks"?
Netscape PR3 won't be installed on my computer. Nope, I really don't need all the AOL stuff. That's why I have been downloading Mozilla daily builds and actually use them more than the old Netscape. And let me tell you, the latest builds have been impressive in both speed and stability.
So here's how you should do it. Go to Mozillazine and check the build bar there. Go read the comments and choose a nice build. That way you can actually choose not to download a bad build. If one of those crashes too much, delete your .mozilla-directory. Chances are you have an old one which is not necessarily compatible.
That's it. Oh, and don't only talk the talk. Walk the walk and submit bugs instead of just complaining about beta-versions.
Even though I won't buy Opera, it's nice to see some competition. I strongly suspect they will have a hard time with Mozilla, though.
This is quite a significant issue, as libraries compiled with one release of G++ by one person may not work with another release of G++ by someone else.
This appears to be the root of the problems I had running Opera; it would generally run OK until I actually tried to load in a web page, at which point it would discover it had just tried to violate a segment. That was with the statically-linked version; a dynamically-linked version will be at even greater risk of ABI violations...
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
I can't disable JavaScript without going into such a paranoid mode that I can't even download anything...
1. Go to Tools -> Internet Options
2. Select the "Security" tab
3. Select the "Internet" zone
4. Click "Custom"
5. Scroll down to "Active Scripting"
6. Set it to disabled
7. Close out of all dialogs, saving changes.
Netscape crashes my machine sooo hard (in Windows and Linux) that only the power switch can bring the machine back to life...
Dude, if a browser can lock up your Linux box that hard, you must have some serious system-level issues going on.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
It crashes now and then, and there is a memory leak problem
;)
Well it _does_ sound a lot like Netscape to me
I hope that it's better though.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
FAQ as it list a rather extensive list of platforms they are "actively persuing". The list includes Alpha, Sparc and Power PC to name just a few.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
I would like to point out that when Opera first looked into porting their browser to other OSes, the response from Linux users was hardly encouraging (actually, I beleive the Amiga users were the biggest fans of the idea).
Perhaps if people sent encouraging e-mails to Opera, or any other company that is developing for Linux, rather than complaining that beta software *gasp* has bugs in it, we might get software a little quicker!
Sorry, but Slashdotters, as a group, seem incredibly negative. On the one hand you complain that Microsoft restrict choice, and then someone asks why Opera bother porting their browser to Linux...
And someone else said they would give Opera the same chance they gave all the other browsers; if it coredumps, they go back to Lynx. My apologies if that person did actually mean they'd do that test for the release version, but I suspect they intend to run the beta version, which undoubtably will coredump, and will go back to Lynx without giving Opera a reasonable chance.
This isn't actually meant as a flame, this is meant to give people more of a perspective. In particular, if someone from Opera reads Slashdot (and is that all that unlikely), I wouldn't be exactly suprised if the Opera for Linux project gets pushed even lower down their priority list.
A lot of people here are saying that Mozilla is competition for Opera - I guess it is. Personally, I think Konqueror is closer to home. It's VERY fast, uses QT2.2 etc.
For anyone who hasn't tried Konqueror (part of kde2base) in a while, you really ought to. I've been playing with the daily builds for Mandrake 7.2 and it has gotten a LOT better at renedering pages over the last month or so.
Personally, a year from now I can see two main browsers in the Unix world:
Mozilla (ns6, galeon, nautilus etc.) and Konqueror. Really, Konqueror is THAT good. It's amazing to me that the KDE guys have put together such a great product suite in a few years. It's true that they don;t have to worry about non-unix ports, but they really desrve some recognition.
Anyway, one nice thing to see about Opera was that it was 2MB for the static version and only 1.1MB for the dynamically linked version. When was the last time we saw a 1MB browser that had that many features? (Galeon doesn't count - you still need mozilla.)
Many of us are lucky, we are running on systems that are less then 3 years old. Others aren't as lucky, and there are a great many people that can't afford even the most basic new computers. In rural areas where I live people spend 350 bucks for an old P100 monitor speaker and modem and they have to make payments on that! Opera at least gives them a Browser they can use. Even see people use it on a 386, that's impessive.
It's a welcome addition to the Linux community. It gives some other browsers competition If Opera is like it's windoze cousin, it's very lite and fast. I'll have to fire it up an old 486 and see how it runs in Linux. It seems Opera is extending the life of some of my hardware ;)
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
AussiePenguin
Melbourne, Australia
ICQ 19255837
Jeremy
Melbourne, Australia
Jabber Australia
I'd like to see a GTK version too.
Roll on the final release (and version 4.1)... Paul
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
bash-2.04$ time opera
Segmentation fault
real 0m21.607s
user 0m11.890s
sys 0m1.060s
This happened several times, taking anywhere from 0.01 seconds to about 30 seconds, but then it works great for awhile, even when going to the same websites (slashdot, etc). Dunno.
Sorry, this will come over as flamebait, and yet it's a rant. Mod me down now, and don't bother reading any further.
.tex and .tiff files! I also find it unwieldy to use.
I have real problems with _all_ the current browsers, and always try new ones on the hope that they are better than the ones I've tried before.
all of these include using the latest 'stable' version. And I only mention my most recent annoyance, often there are many...
IE - I can't disable JavaScript without going into such a paranoid mode that I can't even download anything, even
Netscape - crashes my machine sooo hard (in Windows and Linux) that only the power switch can bring the machine back to life.
Amaya - dropped core within 5 minutes of running it. lather rinse repeat... Also has a slightly wierd feel to the UI.
Mozilla - dropped core within 10 minutes of using. lather rinse repeat... Also suffers from too much clutter which removes vital inches from my desktop (hey, my girlfriend's blind and likes 640*480 on my 21" monitor) OK I can turn it off, but that means having to navigate arounf another maze of configuration options, I've only just become comfortable finding options in Nutscrape.
So, I'm giving Opera the same chance that I gave the others. As soon as I start seeing core files, I'll go straight back to Lynx, which for most of the kinds of sites I visit (boring technical ones).
Do I have anything good to say about any browsers?
Yes -
Netscape - Great Newsreader, my favourite ever.
Mozilla - Great cookie/image management, really
handy.
Lynx - Never had a problem with it at all.
Shame about the web-pages though...
Rant, rant, rant, rant, rant...
FatPhil
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
On the other hand, even though it's of no use to me, I have to give them points for including a statically linked binary -- no need to install Qt only to try out their browser for an hour or so.
11:32am up 4 days, 59 min, 4 users, load average: 0.65, 0.52, 0.33
67 processes: 66 sleeping, 1 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 3.3% user, 1.3% system, 0.0% nice, 95.3% idle
Mem: 63032K av, 60300K used, 2732K free, 29840K shrd, 1308K buff
Swap: 64476K av, 15704K used, 48772K free 21484K cached
PID USER PRI NI SIZE RSS SHARE STAT LIB %CPU %MEM TIME COMMAND
731 root 15 0 14392 13M 1044 S 0 0.9 21.8 31:48 X
14806 chris 7 0 13164 12M 8088 S 0 0.0 20.8 0:07 netscape-com
883 chris 0 0 12172 11M 2232 S 0 0.0 18.0 22:05 xemacs-X11
14785 chris 0 0 7172 7172 4392 S 0 0.0 11.3 0:09 opera
14786 chris 0 0 7172 7172 4392 S 0 0.0 11.3 0:00 opera
14530 chris 0 0 4424 3740 2608 S 0 0.0 5.9 0:05 kfm
14822 chris 0 0 3724 3724 3148 S 0 0.0 5.9 0:00 netscape-com
654 xfs 0 0 3472 3052 988 S 0 0.0 4.8 1:01 xfs
735 chris 2 0 3252 2276 1708 S 0 0.0 3.6 0:43 kwm
771 chris 0 0 2848 1844 1260 S 0 0.0 2.9 0:43 kpanel
14782 chris 17 0 868 868 664 R 0 2.3 1.3 0:05 top
In short, Opera looks a lot smaller than Netscape, even when statically linked to Qt 2.2. Mozilla usually needs 30MB or so. Anyone care to post numbers for Galeon and Konqueror?