Slashdot Mirror
The Joys Of Big Business; or Why AT&T Long Distance Sux
I've recently moved to Boston, as those who've been on IRC with us, and watched the news lately have seen. It's great -- I love the city, and I like where I live. When moving, I had to do the typical thing of signing the house up for electric, gas, water and all that good stuff. One of the interesting things that Boston differs from Holland in is that you can have different local phone providers. Not being very happy to start with concerning Bell Atlantic/Verizon, I opted instead for another giant media company, MediaOne. They only offered local service, not long distance, so I selected MCI Worldcom as my long distance. I'd been happy with them before, and they offered me frequent flyer miles.
I'm happily going along this morning, deleting submissions when I get call from MCI Worldcom wondering why one of my lines has left MCI. After spending the 30 minutes to convert my line back, I become progressively more frustrated.
You see, the FTC had given MediaOne and AT&T permission to merge, which they did recently. Since then, I've gotten a call a day on my lines, asking me to switch to AT&T for long distance. I refuse. It costs more, and I don't get frequent flyer miles. I've told them this, but they somehow persist, thinking perhaps that they can wear me down, like so much water on rock.
But they evidently decided that me saying No meant Yes, and so slammed me. I hate this practice. What a waste of time and energy. And they know that they'll lose my business, and that if I get my gumption up I'll call the State AG's office. I think is illegal. If not, it should be.
How many other people have had problems with this?
I feel sorry for people getting slammed. The companies claim, often, that it was not indented.
My first case of being slammed was kind of funny. It was in 1995. I ordered a fractional T1(384kb) for my business(a dailup provider, my 56kb was maxed out). Then one day I get werd extra charges on the T1. I ask our acountant what was goin on. He didn't know. Looking at the bill I noticed that we had been charged for a change of long distance carrier, twice. Once out T1 was switch to AT&T, then MCI, for "long distance" calls.
I explained this to the Pacific Bell billing people. I had a T1, which would not make long distance calls. They only said, will then wy did you switch carriers.
All people working for phone company seem not to "get it". Must be something in the water.
So, slamming is bad, but phone companies' billing paractices are worse.
I ordered a "Centrex" interoffice package from Pacific Bell in San Francisco back in earily 1995. Centrex is a group of business numbers which can call each other without any cost. They must all terminate at the same switch. This product was created to replace small office PBX systems.
Well I got Centrex ISDN lines. Centrex lines don't have to terminate at the same address. So I had many Centrex ISDN lines terminate at customer sites. Ta-ta, 128kb ISDN 24 hours a day with only the $29 a month bill.
I was an ISP, and this was gravy. Or so I thought. Little did I know that the Pacific Bell was holding a blade against my neck, and was cutting.
They somehow forgot that we had unmetered lines, there was a bug in the system. The bills came in to my customers not at $29, but at the metered rate. Pacific Bell, in our first month offering ISDN, overcharged us $38,000.00.
This continued. They even made us pay the bill. We could only speak to "our" customer service rep, who was out in training for 29 out of 30 days of the month it seemed.
When we did get refunds they did not indicate what they were refunding. Our customers got fed up after about six months and the billing nightmare continued.
We quite. Or rather, my partners did. I had no choice. We were the first in our area to offer what people can only get now via DSL. I can't think that is was just a bug in the system. I can't prove anything either.
In the end we sold the customers to other companies and moved on. I was glad to no longer have to spend my entire day on the phone with Pacific Bell.
So, slamming it seems is just par for the course.
Be seeing you.
-- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
On the lighter side there was a story about a Telecom company in Texas named them selves idontcare. That way when you started service and were asked "Who would you like for your long distance provider?" people that said "I Don't care" got assigned to this company.
Another fun grab: The predecessor to AT&T's 1-800-CALL-ATT was a short-lived 1-800-OPERATOR (who cares if it's too long, right?). Soon afterwards, MCI, in a bid to get some of that action, grabbed 1-800-OPERATER.
All the yokels who couldn't spell OPERATOR were charged by MCI instead of AT&T.
Unfortunately, it caught on big, and people started doing this with domain names too.
*muttering something about wire brushes*
[
I'm not saying that this is how AT&T works. If it is, I'm sure the reason your "slam" had to do with somone's pay check and not AT&T's policy. It was some poor slob was just trying to get enough in his pay check to be able to afford a car that started!
The practice IS illegal, and you can asked to be removed from their phone list, and by law they CANNOT contact you for the period of 1 year. You can call your local better business bureau, they have the number to report "slamming" and other abuses.
On the lighter side there was a story about a Telecom company in Texas named them selves idontcare. That way when you started service and were asked "Who would you like for your LD provider" people that said "I Don't care" got assigned to this company.
Don't know if it's true, but it's funny.
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
One thing that has always bugged me, and I'm sure it does most of you, is
to sit down at the dinner table only to be interrupted by a phone call from
a telemarketer. I decided, on one such occasion, to try to be as irritating
as they were to me. The call was from AT&T and it went something like this:
(swallowing)
Me: Hello
AT&T: Hello, this is AT&T...
Me: Is this AT&T?
AT&T: Yes, this is AT&T...
Me: This is AT&T?
AT&T: Yes This is AT&T...
Me: Is this AT&T?
AT&T: YES! This is AT&T, may I speak to Mr. Byron please?
Me: May I ask who is calling?
AT&T: This is AT&T.
Me: OK, hold on.
At this point I put the phone down for a solid 5 minutes thinking that,
surely, this person would have hung up the phone. I ate my salad. Much to
my surprise, when I picked up the receiver, they were still waiting.
Me: Hello?
AT&T: Is this Mr. Byron?
Me: May I ask who is calling please?
AT&T: Yes this is AT&T...
Me: Is this AT&T?
AT&T: Yes this is AT&T...
Me: This is AT&T?
AT&T: Yes, is this Mr. Byron?
Me: Yes, is this AT&T?
AT&T: Yes sir.
Me: The phone company?
AT&T: Yes sir.
Me: I thought you said this was AT&T.
AT&T: Yes sir, we are a phone company.
Me: I already have a phone.
AT&T: We aren't selling phones today Mr. Byron.
Me: Well whatever it is, I'm really not interested but thanks for calling.
When you are not interested in something, I don't think you can express
yourself any plainer than by saying "I'm really not interested", but this
lady was persistent.
AT&T: Mr. Byron we would like to offer you 10 cents a minute, 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
Now, I am sure she meant she was offering a "rate" of 10 cents a minute but
she at no time used the word rate. I could clearly see that it was time to
whip out the trusty old calculator and do a little ciphering.
Me: Now, that's 10 cents a minute 24 hours a day?
AT&T: (getting a little excited at this point by my interest) Yes sir
that's right! 24 hours a day!
Me: 7 days a week?
AT&T: That's right.
Me: 365 days a year?
AT&T: Yes sir.
Me: I am definitely interested in that! Wow!!! That's amazing!
AT&T: We think so!
Me: That's quite a sum of money!
AT&T: Yes sir, it's amazing how it adds up.
Me: OK, so will you send me checks weekly, monthly or just one big one at
the end of the year for the full $52,560, and if you send an annual check,
can I get a cash advance?
{{{pause}}}
AT&T: Excuse me?
Me: You know, the 10 cents a minute.
AT&T: What are you talking about?
Me: You said you'd give me 10 cents a minute, 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week, 365 days a year. That comes to $144 per day, $1,008 per week and
$52,560 per year. I'm just interested in knowing how you will be making
payment.
AT&T: Oh no sir I didn't mean we'd be paying you. You pay us 10 cents a
minute.
Me: Wait a minute here!!! Didn't you say you'd give me 10 cents a minute.
Are you sure this is AT&T?
AT&T: Well, yes this is AT&T sir but......
Me: But nothing, how do you figure that by saying that you'll give me 10
cents a minute that I'll give you 10 cents a minute? Is this some kind of
subliminal telemarketing scheme? I've read about things like this in the
Enquirer you know. Don't use your alien brainwashing techniques on me.
AT&T: No sir we are offering 10 cents a minute for.....
Me: THERE YOU GO AGAIN! Can I speak to a supervisor please!
AT&T: Sir I don't think that is necessary.
Me: Sure! You say that now! What happens later?
AT&T: What?
Me: I insist on speaking to a supervisor!
AT&T: Yes Mr. Byron. Please hold. So now AT&T has me on hold and my supper
is getting cold. I begin to eat while I'm waiting for a supervisor. After
a wait of a few minutes and while I have a mouth full of food:
Supervisor: Mr. Byron?
Me: Yeth?
Supervisor: I understand you are not quite understanding our 10 cents a
minute program.
Me: Id thish Ath Teeth & Teeth?
Supervisor: Yes sir, it sure is.
I had to swallow before I choked on my food. It was all I could do to
suppress my laughter and I had to be careful not to produce a snort.
Me: No, actually I was just waiting for someone to get back to me so that I
could sign up for the plan.
Supervisor: OK, no problem, I'll transfer you back to the person who was
helping you.
Me: Thank you.
I was on hold once again and managed a few more mouthfuls. I needed to end
this conversation. Suddenly, there was an aggravated but polite voice at
the other end of the phone.
AT&T: Hello Mr. Byron, I understand that you are interested in signing up
for our plan?
Me: Do you have that friends and family thing because you can never have
enough friends and I'm an only child and I'd really like to have a little
brother...
AT&T: (click)
You can be aggressive in trying to personally attack or annoy the telemarketers; the problem with that is that:
This is a bottom end job, taken by people that have had few better opportunities. They make no decisions, and annoying one of them merely annoys one of them.
I instead suggest looking to JunkBusters.com. These are the same people that produce the beloved Junkbuster "web proxy" that can block cookies and evil ad banners for you.
Notably see JUNKBUSTERS Telemarketing Headlines, subtitled How to reduce the number of junk phone calls you get.
I use this regularly, and it did the trick with MCI.
I still get an irritating number of calls from the companies I already do business with, mostly the credit card cretins; the LD Provider calls significantly diminished when I started at least partially following the "JunkBuster Script."
(Horrors! That sounds terrifyingly close to "chain letter" systems!)
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
PUC - Public Utilities Commission
TCPA - Telephone Consumer Protecton Act
LART - Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
There is a group of activists and tagalongs (I fall in the latter category, as I haven't actually sued anyone myself yet) who have combined into an organization called Private Citizen .
If you join they will, on your behalf, send cease and desist letters to several hundred direct marketing companies, including telemarketers. The cost for both the telemarketing and junk mail service was, I think, $30.00 US. That was the best $30.00 I ever spent: my junk phone calls went to zero and my junk mail to just a trickle.
In addition, they have extensive information on how to combat telemarketers, how to go about suing them in small claims court (and winning), and other guarilla tactics individuals can use to get some of their privacy back.
I am a very satisfied, paying member of that group, and highly recommend it to anyone who seriously wants this shit to end, now. They were highly effective in ending it for me (I had been getting harassed multiple times/week, now I haven't been bothered in months).
Good Luck!
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
(I keep this info on an index card under my phone)
The TCPAo1991 requires that companies keep a "no-call" list, which you can request to be added to. If you hear from them again, you are legally entitled to sue for $500 per incident. And this is federal law.
Look here for more information.
iSKUNK!
Ameritech, here in Indianapolis, offers a service called "Privacy Manager". For about 3 bucks a month, any call that doesn't bring up a Caller ID message gets sent to a voicemail type system that asks the caller to say their name or company that they're from. After they do that, your phone rings and a voice says, "Would you like to accept a call from.." then plays the message that was just recorded. If you hit 1, it just connects you like a normal phone call. If you hit 2, it plays a message saying, "The recipient has declined to take your call. Please remove them from your call list."
It sounds cool, but unless you get a TON of telemarketers, it's not worth hassling your friends. I canceled mine after my uncle called from an airport payphone to tell me his flight was changed and was cut off twice by the service.
-B
Greetings, Hemos, and welcome to Boston!
Slamming is quite illegal. If you have the bill in hand which demonstrates you have been slammed, report them to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts Department of Telecommunications and Energy -- Consumer Division. The DTE is the regulatory body which governs utility companies. (I worked for them once, and oh, the stories I can tell...)
I just called the MA DTE on the phone (617 727-3531) and asked them: They said that if more than 20 people complained, a fine might be assessed against the slamming company. They also keep stats on slams.
As it happens, I just switched from AT&T to MCI/WorldCom. In the course of doing this I discovered that Verizon (my local bell) has an optional free feature, whereby they will not change your long distance service unless you personally call them up and authorize it; they make you testify to a 3rd party verification service (who tapes you) that you want your service change. Ask MediaOne if they will do it; I bet they will.
In any event: IFF you cannot get satisfaction on a (any) dispute with your phone (or gas, or electricity) co. after contacting them directly, then contact the DTE. On your phone bill, usually on the back of the first page, you will find a phone number for the DTE Consumer Division, or you may file a complaint electronically here. You must try to iron things out with the company directly, first, then the DTE will talk to you.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
Actually, I've been tempted to do just that, but they haven't called me in a few months. I guess when I said "This is the third call I've received on behalf of AT&T in violation of TCPA" and they drone wimped out and hung up, he put me on the real do-not-call (read: "The guys who actually wants to sue us, as opposed to just get us to stop calling" list) list.
The real catch-22 of getting the info you need to sue (theoretically, all I need to do is sue AT&T) is that it'd be useful to know which telemarketing company called me.
F'rinstance, it'd be a much stronger case (in the eyes of a judge, who may never have dealt with a TCPA case before) to say "XYZ Drone Services" called me twice, rather than "XYZ Drone Services" called me once, I told them to put me on the do-not-call, and "ABC Droid Services" called me tomorrow.
The judge could say "It's illegal, AT&T's responsible, but it's forgivable because there's no way ABCDroid could have known about your opt-out to XYZDrone in 24 hours. Two calls from XYZDrone would be pretty bulletproof, though.
Probably the only way to get that information ("Why, I'm calling from AT&T!", "No, I want the name of the company on your paycheck, not the company that hired your firm") in the context of a telemarketing call for long distance services would be to pretend to be someone interested in working at the telemarketing company. ("Hey, I need some extra dough, where do I sign up?")
Finally, when you get to court, you have to remember you're dealing with telemarketers. Unless it's legal to record a telephone conversation where only one party (you) is aware of the recording, it's highly probable that even if XYZDrone called you twice, their representative would just lie on the stand and say "no, we only called him once", or "we never called him after he asked to be put on the do-not-call list". It'd be your word against his, as you couldn't prove it without a recording of both calls identifying the telemarketer as an employee of XYZDrone.
If you live in a state where all parties must consent to recording, in order to prove that the marketer is perjuring itself, you'd have to admit under oath that you'd broken your state's eavesdropping laws. This would be a Bad Move(tm).
> While I largely agree with your rant, I would have moderated you down as flamebait
> for the gratuitously graphic profanity...
Yeah, it was a bit over-the-top, wasn't it? :-)
Seriously, as for the flamebait/trollishness, Slashdot moderation's probably gonna be even more fup'd-uck than normal today.
Personally, when I saw the Score:5 on my rant, I'd have gone for a (-1, Redundant) than a (-1, Overrated). You're quite correct in that there are lots of posts with a higher S:N ratio, particularly when it comes to using one's state PUC to LART for slamming, as opposed to the TCPA for illegal telemarketing. That technique is probably much more effective than suing 'em under TCPA. PUCs have the time and budget to win these cases, individuals using TCPA often have to spend a lot of time and effort. Go the TCPA route if you like fighting for the general principle, the PUC route for damaging the enemy.
FWIW, when I made the post, I figured my post was worth about a 4, tops, and that's with one of those points being a "Funny" for the ranting. The 5 surprised me too.
I've received numerous telemarketers trying to pimp AT&T long distance - and the past few have been in blatant violation of the TCPA.
Regrettably, the TCPA is toothless in that the telemarkters hang up (making the $500 violation a willful $1500 violation) as soon as I say "This call is in violation of the TCPA. Please state your name". Of course, since they've blocked their number, I can't get the evidence I need to launch the suit.
But anyways - fuck AT&T long distance and their telemarketers with wire brushes. I'll never do business with AT&T as long as I live, despite the fact that their junk-snail-mail arm has sent me multiple $90.00 "checks" as inducements to switch.
As for Katz, or anyone else who's getting multiple illegal telephone solicitations, if you're really pissed, there may be ways to obtain the phone numbers of the telemarketers (e.g. use the "trace/harassing calls" process and file suit, then have your landshark get the number from the cops) - and sue the motherfuckers for $500 (or $1500 for willful violation) per call.
Also, the Public Utilities Commission has a wide array of LARTs at its disposal, and they hate slammers as much as we do. Dunno what they can do about telemarketers per se, however. But if a telemarketer is habitually slamming, the PUC can apply serious mofo pressure to the offending phone company.
Did I mention I hate telemarketers, and especially AT&T's? (Fuck 'em with a wire brush! Fuck 'em until their guts bleed! Shove light bulbs up their arses and turn 'em on until they start to cook! Then tell 'em they can stop the burning by clenching their sphincters until they shatter the bulb! I hate telemarketers!)
Bottom line. Sue the motherfuckers into the stone age. Let the lawyers do the wire-brush stuff. Sell tickets to the courtroom.
Lawyers (real ones) cost $100 / hr and up. Most people who post to /. are pretty low-rent operations and can't afford that (did you get the clue that this was Hemos' home and not Slashdot Corporate Headquarters)? Thus the large grey market in boneheaded amateur legal opinion. And increased resentment of attorneys. Nothing to do with /. per se but kind of a nationwide phenom. Private citizens should not have to retain attorneys to compel corporations to comply with the law! I'm with Hemos on this one, sorry.
I am quite civilized, and I should be brought a beer immediately. -- Bruce Sterling
A while ago, when I was living with a couple of friends and using Sprint, MCI was pestering us constantly. We used to get at least one call per night from them, sometimes more. Asking them politely to stop calling us did nothing.
One day my roommate got fed up. The next time MCI called, he explained to them, "I do not want to switch to MCI. I will never switch to MCI. If MCI were the last long-distance company on earth, I would write all my messages down on paper and send them by pony express."
They stopped calling after that. I don't know exactly what the moral of this little experience is.
I, too, have been slammed, in this case by Sprint over Qwest. When I moved to North Carolina, I chose Qwest as my long distance provider, because they had the best rates for what I wanted at the time. Then, one day, I got a phone bill with Sprint charges.
I quickly called Bell South and Qwest and got myself switched back to the way I had it before, then put a lock on my line. The lock, which everyone should have (and should be the default) prevents your LD carrier from being changed unless you call your local carrier and tell them it is ok.
They claim that placing this 'lock' on your LD carrier is not the default case because it would be too inconvenient. Personally, I think that 'locked' should be the default for any phone service -- if you want to change it, you should have to explicitly tell the phone company.
-- "I will never let my schooling get in the way of my education." --Mark Twain