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German EU Delegate Sues 'Unknown' Over Echelon
belbo writes: "The German newsservice Heise reports that Ilka Schroeder, member of the European Parliament, has instituted legal proceedings at two German courts over 'unknown persons in the U.S., the UK and the German government operating and / or tolerating the espionage system ECHELON, thus violating several patent protection laws'."
It's interesting to note that he's just 22 and he's taking on his government :o) Oh and mine :o)
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
And just what do they get if they win their lawsuit? A visit from the unknown comic? Perhaps a beter waste of money would be to name the unkown people and lobby for laws against theirs and other countries from participating. But again, it's all just a waste of money cause these .gov types are above the law.
They are a threat to free speech and must be silenced! - Andrea Chen
Fish! LipHo
This is a *German person* (politician, but doesn't matter) suing *people* from the UK, US and Germany itself, namely the people who operate and tolerate Echelon, breaching a bunch of German laws. If the German government knows about Echelon in Germany and is not acting against it, they could go to jail personally.
Of course, a lawsuit against "Unknowns" is going to have problems...
But no, he's not suing states. He's not asking for money either, he wants them to stop and go to jail.
I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
from babbelfish: " these regulations become obviously hurt by the described restaurant espionage activity of the suspects ".
This wouldn't be the first time restaurant espionage has ruined lives. Especially when your "industrial secrets" are actually french fries and you return from the rest room to find them stolen!
Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
And a lot of that is because many European countries are several orders of magnitude smaller than the U.S., and they depend on cost saving approaches like conscription to keep their costs low. Their military spending per capita may be somewhat lower than the U.S., but not orders of magnitude lower. And of course most of the EU countries are also in NATO, so they're also depending fairly heavily on the U.S. military to defend them, which helps keep their costs lower.
That said, there's every evidence that many European companies aim their intelligence apparatus much more heavily at Industrial espionage than the U.S. As was pointed out above, everyone knows that the French government loves to pass on useful information to French industry, and my impression is that they're just the most obvious case. The relationship between industy and government has always been closer just about everywhere in Europe than in the United States in other areas, like subsidies, government ownership, etc., so it's not too surprising that passing of intelligence information should be too. IMHO, part of the reason that so many people in Europe are quick to accuse the U.S. of industrial espionage and people in the U.S. are so reluctant to admit it is because the Europeans know that they'd pass on secrets that they turned up, while Americans generally don't view doing so as a valid or acceptable role of government.
Actually, everything that I've ever seen on Echelon suggests that it's a joint U.S./U.K. project.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Listen, don't any of you people understand *strategy*? If someone sues Echelon for patent infringement, they have a good chance of forcing disclosure of how Echelon works . . . thereby allowing programmers to route around it . . . thereby making it useless.
--J
I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners. - Berke Breathed
In addition Europe is not a country, nor is the EU, and forces are definitely not being pooled as far as espionage and military intelligence go.
While European governments are probably not innately morally any "purer" than the US, the US is way out there on its own as far as Echelon-like practices go. If Echelon is reality (and that's a big "if"), the US is the only player.
Ano... ano...
Um... I can't say I saw that one coming. Who'd have thought you could apply patent law in fighting this thing? And given the US government's subservience to corporations (Nader put it best when he talked about "patenting everything under the sun"), I don't think this is one corner they'll be able to back out of very easily.
Well, this is a fine dilemma to be in. On one hand, it's a patent issue relating to software (though I don't think Germany allows software patents anyway, so that's not the issue in and of itself). On the other hand, it's a case of fighting Echelon. Hmmm; who to root for...
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Ilka Schröder, Member of the European Parliament, today at 10:00 filed suit at the Generalbundesanwalt [attorney general] and the public prosecutors in Traunstein and Berlin against Echelon. The suit was filed against "unknown person or persons, especially from the USA or the UK and, if appropriate, the [German] Federal Government for operating and tolerating the espionage system ECHELON."
Schröder refers to reports from Duncan Campell and articles in Telepolis. Her juristic lever for calling the Generalbundesanwalt is his responsibility for the prosecution of certain violation against the 'Bill for Protection of Patents, Registered Designs and Semiconductors'. Schröder suggests in her charge, which is available to Telepolis, that "the bill is apparently violated by the reported acts of industrial espionage of the suspects"
As Schröder told Telepolis earlier today, she filed suit to "raise the discussion about Echelon to a different political level". The inquiry in the Non-permanent Commission of the European Parliament taking place since last week is "not targetted enough", according to Schröder.
(Author: Christiane Schulzki-Haddouti)
Telepolis is Heise's "net culture magazine" with a larger article about it. MP Schröder's Homepage has a homepage.
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Echelon: sueing unknown
Ilka Schröder, member of the European Parliament, sued "Unknown" against Echolon today (modnay 10:00 local time) at the federal high court, and locally in Traunstein and Berlin.
The suit is directed against "unknown suspects fom USA, UK and possibly the german federal government because of operation and/or operation of the espionage system ECHELON".
The lawsuit is based on reports by Duncan Campbell and reports in Telepolis [yabHuj: a german magazine, see e.g. http://www.heise.de/tp/de uts ch/special/ech/6998/1.html]. The juristic lever is the federal states attourney (Generalbundesanwalt) because he is responsible for pursuing certain cases of violations against patent and semiconductor laws [yabHuj: read: industry espionage]. Schröder suspects in her suit (of which Telepolis has a copy) that
vermutet in ihrer Strafanzeige, die Telepolis vorliegt, dass "these regulations are violated by the industry espionage described".
As Schröder said this morning, she wants to haul the discussion about Echelon onto a different political level. Since last week there are inquiries by a nonpermanent committee of the European Parliament which are "way too unfocussed". (Christiane Schulzki-Haddouti)
Yeah, I don't know much about the german legal system, but I know that in the US you have to actually NAME all defendants (at least in civil suits).
Have you forgotten the DeCSS lawsuit already?
When the MPAA decided to persue its (illegetimate) persecution of persons unnamed for posting links to DeCSS, many (If I recall correctly, the vast majority) of the defendents were listed as "John Doe #1" Through "John Doe #N", where N was some rediculous number like 90 or so.
In other words, a whole bunch of "unknowns" are being sued by the Motion Picture Association of America.
The German verbiage is simply more explicit, honestly stating that the offending parties are not known, rather than merely implying it by listing a fictitious name. (I've always found the assumption in using the name "John Doe" that the offendor is male rather amusing).
From what I have been able to learn, both systems appear to allow lawsuits against unidentified parties, if the harm done can be identified, documented, and proven. Should the parties later be positively identified, they will be held liable.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
As an American posting from Germany, let me just contribute two bits of information. The assumption is that Anglo-Saxons are conducting industrial espionage. This assumption is widely held (it's not just Ilka Schröder), and it's deeply resented.
I worked for a year at the Airbus airplane plant in Hamburg, and there are elaborate security mechanisms in place there. They said that they had already caught a couple of spies. Their only opponent, obviously, is Boeing.
I know that many of my fellow Yanks will resent this assumption, but let me gently remind you that our nation's espionage activities over the past decades have so thoroughly ruined our moral reputation that this reaction can hardly be surprising. Wake up, floks. When you send the CIA out to assassinate, topple governments and support thugs as often as we have, it's certainly not difficult to imagine our spooks stealing business secrets.
Also, many of you are getting a kick out of this "unknown" business, but this is just what they about an investigation when wrongdoing is suspected but nobody's certain who's doing it. When some of my stuff was stolen a few years ago, I reported it to the poilce and they initiated an investigation against "unknown". You can do the same thing in civil procedures. The purpose is simply to get a formal investigation going, so that you maybe find out who "unknown" is.
Always keep a sapphire in your mind