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Mandrake 7.2 in Wal-Mart: A Good Idea?
The word we got last week from Bill Gardner, MacMillan's product manager for Mandrake titles, was that the boxed Mandrake 7.2 "desktop" version wasn't supposed to show up on store shelves until around November 10, but it's already out there. I've spotted copies in my local Wal-Mart, and others have emailed me to say they've seen Mandrake's new "Penguin and Star" logo on software boxes in other Wal-Marts around the U.S.
Another thing on those boxes is this quote:
"Linux users have dozens of choices; after testing the most popular ones, Mandrake... seems best for a first timer."Hey! That's me!--Robin Miller, The Washington Post, June 2000
Back in June, of course, I was talking about Mandrake 7.1, and the version I was using was the "deluxe" package that came complete with virtually every free -- as in either speech or beer -- piece of software you could possibly want to run in Linux. I installed 7.1 glitch-free on a number of desktops and laptops, set up my printing, my networking and my dialup connections with no problem, and away I went, doing anything and everything I -- or almost any home or small office computer user -- could possibly want to do in the course of the average workday. I didn't need all the packages that came with the big 7.1, not by a long shot. But it was nice to know they were there if I did need them, and when code-developing friends stopped by I had their favorite compilers and other tools handy on my machines for them to use, which is nothing more than straight-up, down-home hospitality in the social circles in which I seem to move these days.
"Complete" 7.2 comes with none of these tools. In fact, it is so stripped and bare that it offers little more functionality than Windows. Perhaps that is the point: to be as Windows-like as possible; to offer nothing more than a low-cost desktop operating system alternative for Wal-Mart shoppers who might otherwise buy Windows ME. If so, this distro is a qualified success; a new user can probably get it installed and running without a whole lot more work than it takes to do a Windows install or upgrade, and with about the same (zero) amount of command line use.
This is good.
What is not so good is that the GUI installer seems less than totally stable. Three LUG-buddies and I have now installed retail 7.2 Mandrake on a total of four desktops and three laptops, at least three times on each computer, and our results have been inconsistent -- and generally unrepeatable, in that niggling problems we had with one install didn't crop up in the next one, even on the same machine. We also found that some of the things new users might think the installer will let them do -- like back up a step or two in the installation process -- are bad ideas. Indeed, one thing we learned early in our testing was that if we had any problem at all with an installation attempt, it was best to give up, shut down, and start over from scratch.
Our attempts to update previous Mandrake installations using the "upgrade" option presented in a handy dialog box were total failures. Perhaps this feature looked good in Mandrake's labs and caused no problems for MacMillan's quality assurance people, but we couldn't get it to work reliably.
The funny thing is, the downloadable version of Mandrake 7.2 that has been available since last weekend gave us no major problems with either raw installs or upgrades, and as long as we stuck to clicking "okay" on the defaults, the installation process was just as simple as with the retail version -- and we got a lot more usefulness for our efforts. Like Pine, and through Pine, Pico, the simplest and most basic text editor around for fast script or shell modification. Yes, I know the average Wal-Mart Linux buyer probably won't do a whole lot of CLI work, if any, but the second that theoretical person calls for help from a Linux-knowing friend or neighbor, he's going to hear, "Where's Pico? Or Emacs?" (At least vi is there, which is going to warm some hearts even while it leaves others a bit cold.)
When compared with Windows for stability and overall utility, there is no question that the retail "desktop" version of Mandrake 7.2 is a winner; it comes with and automatically installs StarOffice and other packages that will make Windows users feel right at home, including a whole stack of cool little games. But not all of these packages install on their own if you select the "normal" install. For some reason, the only way to get most of the included packages onto your hard drive during the installation is to use the "custom" option instead of the "complete" option, which doesn't seem to make much sense. (The official Mandrake justification for this is that Mandrake adjusts to available hard drive space and root partition size, but I found the same glitch even on a 30 GB hard drive with a 4 GB / partition, which ought to be more than enough space for every piece of user-level Linux software you could ever want to own.)
The only important thing (for an ordinary user) the boxed set included that we didn't find in the downloadable version was StarOffice -- because it isn't GPL-licensed, as is every single package included in the download. I had a copy around (on my 7.1 CD set), and almost every LUG probably has StarOffice CDs hidden away somewhere. If not, it can be downloaded from many mirror sites, and say what you will about StarOffoce, it is one of the easiest pieces of Linux software to install that has ever been released, so the fact that it isn't included in the Mandrake download is not a major inconvenience.
But one thing the boxed set did lack was KDE 2.0; the version it came with, no matter what the manual said, was one of the last prerelease betas, not the real thing. I don't know if this made much difference; I detected no flaws that affected my work in any way, but it still left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
There are a number of other silly little problems in both boxed and downloadable 7.2. One is with DrakSync, a GUI wrapper for rsync that allows point-and-click updating of files or directories between two computers, in my case the desktop I use at home and the laptop I carry when traveling. I could not get DrakSync to work. Steve Killen, one of the freshmeat appindex maintainers, couldn't get it to work. All-around Linux stud Nick Kosten couldn't get it to work. Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah got it working after several tries, and claimed that he did nothing that we couldn't have done on our own. Perhaps this is true; with better onscreen instructions and a useful help file or man page, neither of which was provided, we probably would have had no problems.
Personally, I believe that including broken, incomplete or badly documented software in a commercial distro is wrong, even if you are rushing to meet a contract shipping deadline set by a retail giant like Wal-Mart. Like a Web site with broken links, it makes you wonder about the reliability of the rest of what you get. A contributed package that doesn't work quite right might be marginally acceptable, but a utility that has the company's name on it, and supposedly has the company's reputation behind it? It should work without problems, especially if it is a GUI utility aimed at simpleminded point/click users (like me).
CUPS, the Common Unix Printing System, was perhaps the greatest frustration. The only reason it works on my network at all is because Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah sat here, in my home, and messed with it for several hours. And he had to call headquarters to get help. Without this level of support (which is only available to people who are quoted on the product box), I doubt that a typical user-level person would be able to configure CUPS across a network that runs on a server that also functions as a 'net gateway, which is a common home or small office network configuration. This may not be a big deal for a Wal-Mart shopper who only has one computer, but more and more of my neighbors have multiple computers in their households -- and this is in a blue-collar trailer park, not an upscale housing development, where multicomputer households are probably even more common than they are in my humble neighborhood.
The largest benefits Mandrake 7.2 offers over 7.1 at this point are KDE2 and the lovely KOffice. It also has more security options -- probably the widest range available to point and click Linux users -- a bunch of cool new games, and default 3-D acceleration support, something Chmouel says is currently offered by no other commercial Linux distribution.
If you are using a standalone computer (or don't need network printing), and you are eager to play with these new features -- and to get one of the prettiest bootup sequences you ever saw -- you may want to install 7.2 in its present state.
Otherwise, you'd be better off waiting until a more mature version is available for download. And if you prefer to get your software on CDs in factory-packed boxes, you will want to wait -- not long, Chmouel says -- until an updated version of the current 7.2 or the about-to-be-released "Power Pack Deluxe" set, hopefully with most of the current bugs and documentation problems repaired, is available either in stores or directly from Mandrake or MacMillan.
I have tried 3 different disto's and still can't configure linux to work with my internet connection over the past 6 months.. nor can I figure out how to install much more than a simple KDE theme.
... "here" then is a *full* page saying you must make sure you update 3 other parts of your OS. -- Usually somewhere in the install instructions it says something like "I had a problem and did this to fix it..." Honestly after the first paragraph of install instruction I am intimidated.
... Makes for getting new reqruits kinda hard.
:)
While any windows app will have install instructions equaling 2 sentances... (if any are given at all).. the standard Linux app install instructions usually go... "click here"
Add to this that the whole linux comunity doesn't seem to concerned about the desktop market anymore.. seems most people don't want to answer "newbie" questions anymore because they answered em already n to the 10th times. Now I hear... "Screw the desktop market."
I'd love for linux to be *my* OS... so far I feel linux doesnt want it to be that way tho. -- I'm sticking to Win2k here. (Sadly.. KDE and GNOME really rock... Litestep can only emulate so much
None of this was meant to be a flame btw.. (seriously)
easier,
minus
I am Jack's HTTP Server
As discussed recently on Mandrake Forum, this isn't actually the final release of Mandrake 7.2. Walmart required any products to be stocked for the Christmas season to be released at a certain time, and the final 7.2 release would not have made that, so instead they used the final Release Candidate of 7.2. It futures all the functionality of the final release, with only a few bug fixes implemented since then. I'm not sure it was the optimal choice, but if money's concerned, they really had to go with it.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
I can now get a shotgun, barbeque, some coveralls, and a copy of Mandrake all in the same store!
Bitcoin pyramid: Join here: http://www.bitcoinpyramid.com/r/1427 it's FREE!
I know atleast 3 people who have bought linux at OfficeMax-BestBuy-CompUSA with no clue what it is, just a look at the pictures on the back and they thought it was a Text-editor or something.
2 wanted refunds after they called me asking what it was (do you know how hard it is to actually explain to a newbie what an os is?
"It is an perating system, you use it instead of Winblows"
"heehee, your making fun of microsoft aren;t you"
"Yes"
"so its kind of like Mac OS"
"Yeah, exactly"
"So it runs on a Mac"
"No"
"But windows runs on a pc"
"So does Linux"
"Yeah right, seriously, what is Linux"
"Its an OS, you use it in place of windows"
"Yeah right, you can't take windows of a computer"
-continue for 10 minutes
The other guy left his CD in, and forgot about it when it didn't work. The next day I got a call when he turned on his computer and got the Set-up screen.
Seriously, its kinda cool their selling Linux at Wal-mart, but how many people that shop their will actually be able to figure out what its for?
I have seen RedHat 6.2 at Wal-Mart. That was quite a while ago. This guy must never go to the software section of Wal-Mart if he thinks Linux being there is something new.
Geeze.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
...are massive install parties (tailgate parties?) at each WalMart!
Tell people to bring their PCs on down, and if they're having problems with their Mandrake and/or RedHats they're installing, just bring their PC with em to the parking lot!
YES it would have to be with a purchase from Wal-Mart - we'd be trying to help them, not compete with them... and it might put some cash back into the pockets of Mandrake, RedHat, etc... because in all fairness, they DO contribute to Linux development...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
They have a distribution which is not Mandrake 7.2 (check the Mandrake mailing lists for details, but I believe it's a prerelease), and they are representing it as if it was Mandrake 7.2.
I doubt that the particular marketdroid who made this decision thought of it in these terms, but "misrepresentation" and "fraud" are the first things that come to my mind. People's first experience with Linux should not be with a beta release masquerading as a fully tested distribution.
I suppose it depends on your perspective. For a typical home single-user environment, I suppose Star Office's Previous/Next/Finish wizard installation routine might seem comfortingly Windows-ish.
/net" (which I suppose has something to do with an expectation that you will be using a shared network filesystem among single-user workstations), except that it's not "/net", it's "-net" (Apparently StarOffice was developed under DOS). That is if you can find the setup program, because it's not where the documentation says it is either (looks like they added multiple language support at the last minute -- it wasn't that hard to figure out, just sort of JV).
:)
From a system administrator's point of view, however, StarOffice has the most bone-headedly stupid install that I have ever seen. This evening, already tired, grumpy, and low on caffeine, I installed Star Office 5.2 on a machine running Solaris 7 (or whatever it is in Sun's current numbering scheme). Let me elaborate (and sorry about the length, but I'm still grumpy and ranty):
print <<"EndOfRant";
My first complaint is the stupid java-based and pointlessly-GUIed installation program. If I were to install this on our lab full of workstations, I would have to spend an entire day walking from workstation to workstation clicking "Next." (Maybe we're going to have to write an X version of Expect.) You call that easy to install? I call running a script to ssh into each workstation and run "make install" while I read Slashdot easy to install. This is just a waste of my time. Anyway, I digress.
The second thing that I noticed about the installation was that it defaults to being installed in a user's home directory. What? That's just insane! In order to get it to install itself in some reasonable place, the directions seem to indicate that I have to run "./setup
The third crazy thing is that the default "-net" install directory is "/office52". What a great idea! I'm just going to stop installing things in "/usr" and "/usr/local", and I'll put them all in one big "/" partition. Anyway, I changed the directory to "/usr/local/staroffice-5.2" because I like descriptive names and don't feel the need to limit myself to 8 characters (there's that DOS thing again).
At this point it gets a little blurry. I think I remember waiting for some little blue bar to move to the right while some sort of slide show went on. I think the slides were trying to sell me on this something called "StarOffice". It looked pretty neat, and I thought about getting it, but then I realized I was already installing it! What is that all about? Sigh.
After the little "complete" dialog came up, I thought I was done. "Not so," said StarOffice. Turns out that each of our 20,000 users was going to have to run a setup script for him- or herself that will install over 2.5 MB of files into some user-defined directory. What? I was in shock. Programs that blindly create little ".program" files and directories all over the place are annoying enough, but even Netscape is smart enough to make ".netscape" all by itself (unless you wrap it in a script that makes the directory and preferences files for Netscape).
This presents new problems:
First, I am obviously going to have to write some sort of wrapper that makes sure setup is run before Star Office is run. Since the destination directory is user-defined, I would have to create some separate tracking mechanism ("touch $HOME/.so52-setup-done" or some crap like that).
Second, the per-user install starts with a scary warning that the machine needs to be patched, as well as other messages which are obviously intended for the system administrator. (Yes, the box is already patched.) I can hear the phone ringing already.
Third, 2.5 MB? Many of our users are already bumping up against their quotas. Another 2.5 MB might just push them and their 99MB inboxes over the edge, and then they'd have to learn how to press "d" in pine or to use gzip, which would surely break their minds.
What right does StarOffice have to take up 2.5MB with user config files, anyway? (And what else is it putting there besides config files?) I can understand the directory growing after use, but 2.5MB right off the bat seems a little weird.
Fourth, in the process of playing with and configuring StarOffice my test account, I repeatedly came across messages that
"/usr/local/staroffice-5.2/foo/bar" is not writable. Well of course it isn't! Isn't that what the stuff in the home directory is for? I guess not. Odd. (Clearly this is more hold-over from StarOffice's single-user roots.)
EndOfRant
What makes this all so crazy is that this software is (well is now, anyway) from a division of Sun "The Network is the Computer", Inc. and was being installed on a machine and operating system designed and built by Sun, Inc. Why, then, is this software so poorly adapted to a multi-user/shared/distributed environment? It's just weird.
Anyway, it's not that big of a deal. I just wanted to point out that one person's "easy graphical wizard" is another person's "child of satan that makes me take my hands away from the keyboard to use a rodent."
Whew. That's a long post. Tomorrow morning I'm going to write some little perl-based installation routine to bypass all of the GUI crap for each user. (I'll be nice and pop up the license, but the rest can be skipped.) By then, I will have probably discovered some "--skip-java-gui" and "--dont-hog-my-home-directory" flags for the install, but for now the "GUI rage" is still fresh on my CLI fingertips.
Corgha
Hi,
When mandrake 7.2 was released, I thought. Hell why not! I had a 1.7 GB partition left on my windows 2000 machine which seemed perfect for trying out mandrake. My experience with this distribution up to then had been very good. Mandrake 7.1 is probably one of the best distributions around in terms of usability, configurability and compatibility. However, 7.2 should in my opinion not have been released. What a piece of shit!
Things that gave me trouble:
- choosing expert mode disables a lot of stuff (e.g. DrakConf). This is hard to fix afterwards, unless you know the names of the packages you need to install manually.
- I was presented with the choice of xfree 3.3.6 (3d accelerated), 4.01 (no 3d) or just 3.3.6 without acceleration (i have a matrox g200). I chose 4.01. The install finished, I rebooted and X did not launch. It was complaining about missing libraries. Again, this is probably easy to fix if you know all the packages you are supposed to install.
- The default install requires over 2.5 Gb (talk about bloat). I really hate the package selection in Mandrake, unless you know what each package does, you are left with no choice other than to slide the bar to get a lower percentage of packages. This needs much improvement. What the hell am I going to do wth these isdn tools for instance? Or how about ppp connection tools, palmpilot synchronization tools, cdrecording tools. I don't have isdn or even a modem. I use a LAN connection. I don't have a cdrecorder. Finding all these packages manually is difficult, especially if you are uncertain about what each package does. Why not group them under 'modem tools' and 'cd recording tools'. The same goes for development tools. The only reason I install them is because I want to be able to compile and install stuff. I have no need for fortran or other obscure languages that are rarely used anymore.
- The installation 'died' a few times (I was using the ftp install). It then displays a message the installation died and that's it! Tip, if this happens to you press cancel a few times (worked for me, I think there was a problem with the connection).
- I installed the grub boot loader once (was selected by default). Since my partition is at the end of my harddrive, it had some trouble recognizing it. Unfortunately the install does not detect this problem and you are faced with an unbootable system afterwards! I fixed it by booting from a disk, and installing lilo (which had no trouble with my partition). Note this also happened to me with red hat 7!
I had other minor complaints about mandrake. However, I'll save those for a later day. My point is that this is not release quality software. This software was rushed out without proper testing. Considering Mandrake explicitly targets newby linux users, there's just too much things that can go wrong. I was able to fix some obvious problems, but then I'm not a newby linux user. If I was not, I would probably have given up.
If MS releases a piece of shit like this everybody complains. So, I don't see why I should shut up now. Mandrake 7.2 is not release quality. The best they can do at Mandrake now is mark it as beta and continue testing and fixing for a few more months. There's really a few nice, innovative things in this distribution. But things like an installation should be more robust. The expert mode should tell me what is going on and not just silently disable essential packages.
Jilles