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Mandrake 7.2 in Wal-Mart: A Good Idea?
The word we got last week from Bill Gardner, MacMillan's product manager for Mandrake titles, was that the boxed Mandrake 7.2 "desktop" version wasn't supposed to show up on store shelves until around November 10, but it's already out there. I've spotted copies in my local Wal-Mart, and others have emailed me to say they've seen Mandrake's new "Penguin and Star" logo on software boxes in other Wal-Marts around the U.S.
Another thing on those boxes is this quote:
"Linux users have dozens of choices; after testing the most popular ones, Mandrake... seems best for a first timer."Hey! That's me!--Robin Miller, The Washington Post, June 2000
Back in June, of course, I was talking about Mandrake 7.1, and the version I was using was the "deluxe" package that came complete with virtually every free -- as in either speech or beer -- piece of software you could possibly want to run in Linux. I installed 7.1 glitch-free on a number of desktops and laptops, set up my printing, my networking and my dialup connections with no problem, and away I went, doing anything and everything I -- or almost any home or small office computer user -- could possibly want to do in the course of the average workday. I didn't need all the packages that came with the big 7.1, not by a long shot. But it was nice to know they were there if I did need them, and when code-developing friends stopped by I had their favorite compilers and other tools handy on my machines for them to use, which is nothing more than straight-up, down-home hospitality in the social circles in which I seem to move these days.
"Complete" 7.2 comes with none of these tools. In fact, it is so stripped and bare that it offers little more functionality than Windows. Perhaps that is the point: to be as Windows-like as possible; to offer nothing more than a low-cost desktop operating system alternative for Wal-Mart shoppers who might otherwise buy Windows ME. If so, this distro is a qualified success; a new user can probably get it installed and running without a whole lot more work than it takes to do a Windows install or upgrade, and with about the same (zero) amount of command line use.
This is good.
What is not so good is that the GUI installer seems less than totally stable. Three LUG-buddies and I have now installed retail 7.2 Mandrake on a total of four desktops and three laptops, at least three times on each computer, and our results have been inconsistent -- and generally unrepeatable, in that niggling problems we had with one install didn't crop up in the next one, even on the same machine. We also found that some of the things new users might think the installer will let them do -- like back up a step or two in the installation process -- are bad ideas. Indeed, one thing we learned early in our testing was that if we had any problem at all with an installation attempt, it was best to give up, shut down, and start over from scratch.
Our attempts to update previous Mandrake installations using the "upgrade" option presented in a handy dialog box were total failures. Perhaps this feature looked good in Mandrake's labs and caused no problems for MacMillan's quality assurance people, but we couldn't get it to work reliably.
The funny thing is, the downloadable version of Mandrake 7.2 that has been available since last weekend gave us no major problems with either raw installs or upgrades, and as long as we stuck to clicking "okay" on the defaults, the installation process was just as simple as with the retail version -- and we got a lot more usefulness for our efforts. Like Pine, and through Pine, Pico, the simplest and most basic text editor around for fast script or shell modification. Yes, I know the average Wal-Mart Linux buyer probably won't do a whole lot of CLI work, if any, but the second that theoretical person calls for help from a Linux-knowing friend or neighbor, he's going to hear, "Where's Pico? Or Emacs?" (At least vi is there, which is going to warm some hearts even while it leaves others a bit cold.)
When compared with Windows for stability and overall utility, there is no question that the retail "desktop" version of Mandrake 7.2 is a winner; it comes with and automatically installs StarOffice and other packages that will make Windows users feel right at home, including a whole stack of cool little games. But not all of these packages install on their own if you select the "normal" install. For some reason, the only way to get most of the included packages onto your hard drive during the installation is to use the "custom" option instead of the "complete" option, which doesn't seem to make much sense. (The official Mandrake justification for this is that Mandrake adjusts to available hard drive space and root partition size, but I found the same glitch even on a 30 GB hard drive with a 4 GB / partition, which ought to be more than enough space for every piece of user-level Linux software you could ever want to own.)
The only important thing (for an ordinary user) the boxed set included that we didn't find in the downloadable version was StarOffice -- because it isn't GPL-licensed, as is every single package included in the download. I had a copy around (on my 7.1 CD set), and almost every LUG probably has StarOffice CDs hidden away somewhere. If not, it can be downloaded from many mirror sites, and say what you will about StarOffoce, it is one of the easiest pieces of Linux software to install that has ever been released, so the fact that it isn't included in the Mandrake download is not a major inconvenience.
But one thing the boxed set did lack was KDE 2.0; the version it came with, no matter what the manual said, was one of the last prerelease betas, not the real thing. I don't know if this made much difference; I detected no flaws that affected my work in any way, but it still left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.
There are a number of other silly little problems in both boxed and downloadable 7.2. One is with DrakSync, a GUI wrapper for rsync that allows point-and-click updating of files or directories between two computers, in my case the desktop I use at home and the laptop I carry when traveling. I could not get DrakSync to work. Steve Killen, one of the freshmeat appindex maintainers, couldn't get it to work. All-around Linux stud Nick Kosten couldn't get it to work. Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah got it working after several tries, and claimed that he did nothing that we couldn't have done on our own. Perhaps this is true; with better onscreen instructions and a useful help file or man page, neither of which was provided, we probably would have had no problems.
Personally, I believe that including broken, incomplete or badly documented software in a commercial distro is wrong, even if you are rushing to meet a contract shipping deadline set by a retail giant like Wal-Mart. Like a Web site with broken links, it makes you wonder about the reliability of the rest of what you get. A contributed package that doesn't work quite right might be marginally acceptable, but a utility that has the company's name on it, and supposedly has the company's reputation behind it? It should work without problems, especially if it is a GUI utility aimed at simpleminded point/click users (like me).
CUPS, the Common Unix Printing System, was perhaps the greatest frustration. The only reason it works on my network at all is because Mandrake developer Chmouel Boudjnah sat here, in my home, and messed with it for several hours. And he had to call headquarters to get help. Without this level of support (which is only available to people who are quoted on the product box), I doubt that a typical user-level person would be able to configure CUPS across a network that runs on a server that also functions as a 'net gateway, which is a common home or small office network configuration. This may not be a big deal for a Wal-Mart shopper who only has one computer, but more and more of my neighbors have multiple computers in their households -- and this is in a blue-collar trailer park, not an upscale housing development, where multicomputer households are probably even more common than they are in my humble neighborhood.
The largest benefits Mandrake 7.2 offers over 7.1 at this point are KDE2 and the lovely KOffice. It also has more security options -- probably the widest range available to point and click Linux users -- a bunch of cool new games, and default 3-D acceleration support, something Chmouel says is currently offered by no other commercial Linux distribution.
If you are using a standalone computer (or don't need network printing), and you are eager to play with these new features -- and to get one of the prettiest bootup sequences you ever saw -- you may want to install 7.2 in its present state.
Otherwise, you'd be better off waiting until a more mature version is available for download. And if you prefer to get your software on CDs in factory-packed boxes, you will want to wait -- not long, Chmouel says -- until an updated version of the current 7.2 or the about-to-be-released "Power Pack Deluxe" set, hopefully with most of the current bugs and documentation problems repaired, is available either in stores or directly from Mandrake or MacMillan.
I have tried 3 different disto's and still can't configure linux to work with my internet connection over the past 6 months.. nor can I figure out how to install much more than a simple KDE theme.
... "here" then is a *full* page saying you must make sure you update 3 other parts of your OS. -- Usually somewhere in the install instructions it says something like "I had a problem and did this to fix it..." Honestly after the first paragraph of install instruction I am intimidated.
... Makes for getting new reqruits kinda hard.
:)
While any windows app will have install instructions equaling 2 sentances... (if any are given at all).. the standard Linux app install instructions usually go... "click here"
Add to this that the whole linux comunity doesn't seem to concerned about the desktop market anymore.. seems most people don't want to answer "newbie" questions anymore because they answered em already n to the 10th times. Now I hear... "Screw the desktop market."
I'd love for linux to be *my* OS... so far I feel linux doesnt want it to be that way tho. -- I'm sticking to Win2k here. (Sadly.. KDE and GNOME really rock... Litestep can only emulate so much
None of this was meant to be a flame btw.. (seriously)
easier,
minus
I am Jack's HTTP Server
Now, I dont know about the Walmart's that everyone ELSE has been to, but every one around where I live has a few different linux distro's. I remember seeing both Redhat and Corel linux distro's there...
I've had a long day. I'm sorry.
--- If something doesn't feel right, you're probably not feeling the right thing.
As discussed recently on Mandrake Forum, this isn't actually the final release of Mandrake 7.2. Walmart required any products to be stocked for the Christmas season to be released at a certain time, and the final 7.2 release would not have made that, so instead they used the final Release Candidate of 7.2. It futures all the functionality of the final release, with only a few bug fixes implemented since then. I'm not sure it was the optimal choice, but if money's concerned, they really had to go with it.
Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
why wouldn't it be? RedHat is in "major" chains around the US. Why would it be bad to have another major distro that is apparently even easier to install/use too? This is coming from a Linux user's prospective :)
:)) But until that point in time we are going to have to deal as a community w/newbies (we were all newbies once), I just wish their questions weren't as weird as they are becomming :)
.02
Now, from an IRC helper prospective...
Not a good thing. We already have enough idiots coming in there babbling about their "PCI modem that works fine in Windows" not working in Linux, or the fact that they can't do this or that. This isn't like Windows! Yeah no shit...
I am glad to see things making a move towards more public acceptance I just hope that people realize that it is NOT windows, it will NEVER be Windows, and most of us don't want it to be...
at some point in time people will have an understanding of Linux as they do of Windows (except the fact that it is MUCH less expensive
Just my worthless
I can now get a shotgun, barbeque, some coveralls, and a copy of Mandrake all in the same store!
Bitcoin pyramid: Join here: http://www.bitcoinpyramid.com/r/1427 it's FREE!
I know atleast 3 people who have bought linux at OfficeMax-BestBuy-CompUSA with no clue what it is, just a look at the pictures on the back and they thought it was a Text-editor or something.
2 wanted refunds after they called me asking what it was (do you know how hard it is to actually explain to a newbie what an os is?
"It is an perating system, you use it instead of Winblows"
"heehee, your making fun of microsoft aren;t you"
"Yes"
"so its kind of like Mac OS"
"Yeah, exactly"
"So it runs on a Mac"
"No"
"But windows runs on a pc"
"So does Linux"
"Yeah right, seriously, what is Linux"
"Its an OS, you use it in place of windows"
"Yeah right, you can't take windows of a computer"
-continue for 10 minutes
The other guy left his CD in, and forgot about it when it didn't work. The next day I got a call when he turned on his computer and got the Set-up screen.
Seriously, its kinda cool their selling Linux at Wal-mart, but how many people that shop their will actually be able to figure out what its for?
I just installed 7.1 (not 7.2) and it's got a lot of rough edges. Harddrake segaulted in some CD-ROM detect routine (I installed off CD), Sounddrake failed to detect my sound system, or correctly configure it when I specified everything (sndconfig worked though). The KDE/GNOME menu update/sync stuff fails miserably (best to disable it). The emacs provided has been patched to hardcode Alt=Meta (I downloaded a normal version)...and plenty of other minor inconveniences that would probably be a huge pain for someone new to Linux. It may be a pretty nice distro, but IMO not yet ready for Windows weenies...
... The KDE v2 is definitely not 'stable', and they went and changed RedHat's switchdesk mechanism without warning. I think most of the problems I've had are with the KDE subsystem. I've converted to XFce and have been pretty happy, though there are issues there too (placement of icons on and in panels is broken as compared to CDE, which did it right).
/vol partitions unformatted but clobber the rest and start from scratch on /usr, /var, /, etc..) and ran into lots of little things, like the installer was broken because it failed to format my format-target-designate /usr before allowing me to select other packages and thus limited me to the free space available for all new packages..
Also, I was doing a clobber-upgrade (keep my home,
I would most definitely not call this a wal-mart-ready distro, unless you go with XFce or one of the more stable desktops. At least they didn't go with an unsupported compiler.. And inetd comes disabled by default, which is IMHO a feature..
Your Working Boy,
Well, I dunno. It looks very good on paper: the hardware detection and Drak(whatever) are very reassuring to the suit: it makes it seem like there're enough drivers so that driver incompatibilities won't be a problem (e.g. "I have a Sound Blaster compatible card - why doesn't this Sound Blaster driver work with my Crystal Sound C4181?")...
But I dunno... somehow I'm of two minds with this - on one hand, Linux'll end up in Podunk, Arkansas. But on the other hand, the numbers of frustration calls on it being released into the general public too soon might undermine its growth.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I have seen RedHat 6.2 at Wal-Mart. That was quite a while ago. This guy must never go to the software section of Wal-Mart if he thinks Linux being there is something new.
Geeze.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
...are massive install parties (tailgate parties?) at each WalMart!
Tell people to bring their PCs on down, and if they're having problems with their Mandrake and/or RedHats they're installing, just bring their PC with em to the parking lot!
YES it would have to be with a purchase from Wal-Mart - we'd be trying to help them, not compete with them... and it might put some cash back into the pockets of Mandrake, RedHat, etc... because in all fairness, they DO contribute to Linux development...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I know that most of us dont have to deal with this, but for a lot of people wal-mart IS the computer and software store. There is NO Compusa or Bestbuy right down the street. The closest one of those are 50+ miles away.
While it probably is true that in most places, it will probably sit on the shelf, or ignorant people will buy it thinking that its a wordprocessor, Alot of us dont have the option to download it, nor do they partically want to order it.
I grew up in a small town, so I know. most places in america wal-mart IS the department store.
BTW, Wal-mart been selling Redhat since 5.0, and Mandrake since 6.1. That is, at least the 24-hour supercenters.
You know, it's kinda fun. Sometimes you get an idiot who doesn't know which way to insert a floppy, and you can just ignore them.
You gurus want to give it a shot, and gain some penguin-karma.
On the other hand, places like Helix Code are making installs (or at least upgrades) awfully easy...
---
I don't know whether to count this as a good thing or a bad :P
Mandrake showing up in Walmart, I have some stories about Walmart..
I was in a Walmart one day browsing the computer games and over heard an old lady talking to one of the sales people.. Basically she wanted to return her Caller-id box, because it didn't work..
When she was asked about service tho, she said that she didn't need to subscribe to anything because her answering machine didn't need any service to work!
lets see, I was in the same one at another time and overheard some little (8-10yo) kids talking (loudly) about how they would never play anything like quake because they didn't want to shoot people, they'd rather play deer hunter..
I really wanted to comment on how honorable it is to shoot something that's defenseless vs something that's not...
And then...
The day after Thanksgiving last year, when there were all kinds of sells, 24 hour sells and stuff like that.. Me and a friend got up really early to goto a local city (well, 20 min away) to goto the sales, and as it would happen we went to Walmart.
On our way into town It started to rain, and was still sprinkling when we pulled into a parking space..
As we were walking up to the store we saw a married couple cart out two of the generic ass computers that Walmart sells, in the rain..
We made fun of them and they heard us and said "Oh, I'm sure that there's plenty of padding, they won't get wet"
And then the loaded them into the back of their pickup truck... (It didn't have a shell on it..)
These three examples are why I think Mandrake might not do too well in Walmart..
I can only imagine one possible dialog:
"I want to return this stupid piece of $#%#)"
"What is wrong with it sir?"
"I can't get Microsoft Word running on it! This dumb OS sucks"
"oh, ah, Mandrake can't run Microsoft products.. It runs something called Linux"
"Well, just gimme my $#%# refund"
"sorry sir, can't do that"
"why?"
"We're afraid you took it home and copied the cd.."
Actually, I was musing the prospects of selling distro cd's on Ebay at work the other day (I work at a cd replication place)..
My mostly dumb coworker, who just gotten a computer, called me a pirate for thinking about that...
He's obviously already attuned to Microsofts software policies.
(Note: He didn't know what a 486 is.. and he's 26)
Then again, Walmart is usually in places where they can't get a (semi) decent store..
-since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
They have a distribution which is not Mandrake 7.2 (check the Mandrake mailing lists for details, but I believe it's a prerelease), and they are representing it as if it was Mandrake 7.2.
I doubt that the particular marketdroid who made this decision thought of it in these terms, but "misrepresentation" and "fraud" are the first things that come to my mind. People's first experience with Linux should not be with a beta release masquerading as a fully tested distribution.
And I've seen various Linux distributions on the shelves of both Walmart and Target on those occasions I have visited to buy cheap camera film.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Here lies the problem: if 7.2 has an unstable install utility, it may scare people away from Linux for a long, long time. Difficult is a little different, as most will come to the conclusion that it is just to advanced for them, and mabey inspire them to learn, or at least try again when they may become a little more computer knowledgable. But if it has errors, a newbie will look at that as "poor" software, buy ME, and be on their way. This is not good for the Linux community, especially if some boneheaded reporter should happen upon Linux at their local Wal-Mart, and have a nightmarish time installing it.
So, yes, I think that exposure is good for Linux, but perhaps we should really wait for it to be ready for mainstream before it is made mainstream.
What needs to be done is make the non-geek community understand what Linux is and why it is better than MS. I know a fair amount of people that have no idea what OS even means, and think that America Online IS the internet, and find it amazing that I can connect to the internet without such revolutionary programs. These will be tough people to convert. It is important to get the message out about Linux, but I'm not too sure we should push too many people to try it. The public and the media can both be very unforgiving when something doesn't work right the first time. Especially if they change their Windows partition to a Linux partition and loose everything on their computer. Linux, undoubtedly, will take the fall for that manuver.
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
This is a true story..
Girl called Helpdesk with a computer having trouble... would not boot right. Asked if she installed any new software. She said yes, got a new word processor from Wal-Mart. She said she didn't know what to get so she asked counter guy... He gave her software to get. Helpdesk guy asked what the software was.... she said it was something called Redhat.
She managed to install RH over her Windows install, of course did not back up. Then asked if she had restore disks... didn't know. Tech asked where she got computer... she replied Helig-Meyers (a furniture store, here in the South).
No I'm not kidding...
Eric Aitala
www.f1m.com
I suppose it depends on your perspective. For a typical home single-user environment, I suppose Star Office's Previous/Next/Finish wizard installation routine might seem comfortingly Windows-ish.
/net" (which I suppose has something to do with an expectation that you will be using a shared network filesystem among single-user workstations), except that it's not "/net", it's "-net" (Apparently StarOffice was developed under DOS). That is if you can find the setup program, because it's not where the documentation says it is either (looks like they added multiple language support at the last minute -- it wasn't that hard to figure out, just sort of JV).
:)
From a system administrator's point of view, however, StarOffice has the most bone-headedly stupid install that I have ever seen. This evening, already tired, grumpy, and low on caffeine, I installed Star Office 5.2 on a machine running Solaris 7 (or whatever it is in Sun's current numbering scheme). Let me elaborate (and sorry about the length, but I'm still grumpy and ranty):
print <<"EndOfRant";
My first complaint is the stupid java-based and pointlessly-GUIed installation program. If I were to install this on our lab full of workstations, I would have to spend an entire day walking from workstation to workstation clicking "Next." (Maybe we're going to have to write an X version of Expect.) You call that easy to install? I call running a script to ssh into each workstation and run "make install" while I read Slashdot easy to install. This is just a waste of my time. Anyway, I digress.
The second thing that I noticed about the installation was that it defaults to being installed in a user's home directory. What? That's just insane! In order to get it to install itself in some reasonable place, the directions seem to indicate that I have to run "./setup
The third crazy thing is that the default "-net" install directory is "/office52". What a great idea! I'm just going to stop installing things in "/usr" and "/usr/local", and I'll put them all in one big "/" partition. Anyway, I changed the directory to "/usr/local/staroffice-5.2" because I like descriptive names and don't feel the need to limit myself to 8 characters (there's that DOS thing again).
At this point it gets a little blurry. I think I remember waiting for some little blue bar to move to the right while some sort of slide show went on. I think the slides were trying to sell me on this something called "StarOffice". It looked pretty neat, and I thought about getting it, but then I realized I was already installing it! What is that all about? Sigh.
After the little "complete" dialog came up, I thought I was done. "Not so," said StarOffice. Turns out that each of our 20,000 users was going to have to run a setup script for him- or herself that will install over 2.5 MB of files into some user-defined directory. What? I was in shock. Programs that blindly create little ".program" files and directories all over the place are annoying enough, but even Netscape is smart enough to make ".netscape" all by itself (unless you wrap it in a script that makes the directory and preferences files for Netscape).
This presents new problems:
First, I am obviously going to have to write some sort of wrapper that makes sure setup is run before Star Office is run. Since the destination directory is user-defined, I would have to create some separate tracking mechanism ("touch $HOME/.so52-setup-done" or some crap like that).
Second, the per-user install starts with a scary warning that the machine needs to be patched, as well as other messages which are obviously intended for the system administrator. (Yes, the box is already patched.) I can hear the phone ringing already.
Third, 2.5 MB? Many of our users are already bumping up against their quotas. Another 2.5 MB might just push them and their 99MB inboxes over the edge, and then they'd have to learn how to press "d" in pine or to use gzip, which would surely break their minds.
What right does StarOffice have to take up 2.5MB with user config files, anyway? (And what else is it putting there besides config files?) I can understand the directory growing after use, but 2.5MB right off the bat seems a little weird.
Fourth, in the process of playing with and configuring StarOffice my test account, I repeatedly came across messages that
"/usr/local/staroffice-5.2/foo/bar" is not writable. Well of course it isn't! Isn't that what the stuff in the home directory is for? I guess not. Odd. (Clearly this is more hold-over from StarOffice's single-user roots.)
EndOfRant
What makes this all so crazy is that this software is (well is now, anyway) from a division of Sun "The Network is the Computer", Inc. and was being installed on a machine and operating system designed and built by Sun, Inc. Why, then, is this software so poorly adapted to a multi-user/shared/distributed environment? It's just weird.
Anyway, it's not that big of a deal. I just wanted to point out that one person's "easy graphical wizard" is another person's "child of satan that makes me take my hands away from the keyboard to use a rodent."
Whew. That's a long post. Tomorrow morning I'm going to write some little perl-based installation routine to bypass all of the GUI crap for each user. (I'll be nice and pop up the license, but the rest can be skipped.) By then, I will have probably discovered some "--skip-java-gui" and "--dont-hog-my-home-directory" flags for the install, but for now the "GUI rage" is still fresh on my CLI fingertips.
Corgha
does this mean they'll have to release a "clean" version with fsck censored out?
tourettes
No, they just sell well below the local guys' outrageous markup for the same products. Unless it was for something needed immediately or just a handfull of items, my parents rarely shopped the stores in the small town near our farm. It was cheaper to buy the merchandise at the malls & big supermarkets in the cities 40 to 100 miles away than it was to drive 3 miles into town and buy it there. In the cases where Wal-Mart moves into a town that may be a little too small for one of their stores, the only local merchants that will survive are the ones that are the ones that adapt and offer products & services that Wal-Mart doesn't. In the larger areas, Wal-Mart will usually make the other chain stores get their act together and start having decent prices & service.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
In other news today, Wal-Mart just introduced its own in-house brand of wine. Customers, however, were confused; they didn't know whether to serve the red or the white with Kraft Dinner.
Wah!
I tried to install Mandrake 7.2 (downloaded version) And ran into a couple serious problems.
First, it wouldn't allow me to run X on my V3. Basically horking it up badly. No amount of tweaking and configuration seemed to fix the setup it tried to install. So, no X.
Even more critical, The installer threw a boot loader on there which wouldn't allow me to get into windows. Just hanging when I tried to select windows instead of linux.
Bad news.
So, now I have no linux on this machine. Maybe I just happen to have a configuration the installer didn't plan on seeing, or it was a fluke of some type, but at least in my case, mandrake was a bad experience and I won't be trying again anytime soon.
My point is, that if someone's first experience with Linux was the same as my first experience with mandrake 7.2, it would be their last experience with linux, and they'd tell their friends how much linux sucks, and would probably not be likely to venture out of the windows camp again for many years.
________
Hi,
When mandrake 7.2 was released, I thought. Hell why not! I had a 1.7 GB partition left on my windows 2000 machine which seemed perfect for trying out mandrake. My experience with this distribution up to then had been very good. Mandrake 7.1 is probably one of the best distributions around in terms of usability, configurability and compatibility. However, 7.2 should in my opinion not have been released. What a piece of shit!
Things that gave me trouble:
- choosing expert mode disables a lot of stuff (e.g. DrakConf). This is hard to fix afterwards, unless you know the names of the packages you need to install manually.
- I was presented with the choice of xfree 3.3.6 (3d accelerated), 4.01 (no 3d) or just 3.3.6 without acceleration (i have a matrox g200). I chose 4.01. The install finished, I rebooted and X did not launch. It was complaining about missing libraries. Again, this is probably easy to fix if you know all the packages you are supposed to install.
- The default install requires over 2.5 Gb (talk about bloat). I really hate the package selection in Mandrake, unless you know what each package does, you are left with no choice other than to slide the bar to get a lower percentage of packages. This needs much improvement. What the hell am I going to do wth these isdn tools for instance? Or how about ppp connection tools, palmpilot synchronization tools, cdrecording tools. I don't have isdn or even a modem. I use a LAN connection. I don't have a cdrecorder. Finding all these packages manually is difficult, especially if you are uncertain about what each package does. Why not group them under 'modem tools' and 'cd recording tools'. The same goes for development tools. The only reason I install them is because I want to be able to compile and install stuff. I have no need for fortran or other obscure languages that are rarely used anymore.
- The installation 'died' a few times (I was using the ftp install). It then displays a message the installation died and that's it! Tip, if this happens to you press cancel a few times (worked for me, I think there was a problem with the connection).
- I installed the grub boot loader once (was selected by default). Since my partition is at the end of my harddrive, it had some trouble recognizing it. Unfortunately the install does not detect this problem and you are faced with an unbootable system afterwards! I fixed it by booting from a disk, and installing lilo (which had no trouble with my partition). Note this also happened to me with red hat 7!
I had other minor complaints about mandrake. However, I'll save those for a later day. My point is that this is not release quality software. This software was rushed out without proper testing. Considering Mandrake explicitly targets newby linux users, there's just too much things that can go wrong. I was able to fix some obvious problems, but then I'm not a newby linux user. If I was not, I would probably have given up.
If MS releases a piece of shit like this everybody complains. So, I don't see why I should shut up now. Mandrake 7.2 is not release quality. The best they can do at Mandrake now is mark it as beta and continue testing and fixing for a few more months. There's really a few nice, innovative things in this distribution. But things like an installation should be more robust. The expert mode should tell me what is going on and not just silently disable essential packages.
Jilles
Biased part is: LM version you can buy at WM today is good, in fact it is much better than many other Linux distros out there. Even Roblimo had to admitt that "he had no problems with KDE2".
informative part is: Primary reason why we continued the developement even after shipping the ISO-s for CD-s was the feeling that people will bitch about KDE2-beta, even if there were absolutely no difference between the version we ship and the "final" KDE2.
The "RC1" was idea of our marketing: They were afraid that sales of 7.1 version would be gone as soon as we announce that 7.2 is finished, so we called it Release-candidate. Then, when we rolled out what is called "download edition" today (and which should have been called 7.2.1, I suppose), they got all scared that folks will think that we shipped a beta.
While Marketing drones are marketing drones (and I can tell you one: OUR marketing folks are actaully wery reasonable, and really try hard to somehow put together wishes of users and developers on one and re-salers on other side.), what I don't understand is apparent easines with which Slashdot readers start bashing a Linux distro whenever given a chance to do so.
OK, let me be completely open: For the first time EVER, one Linux distribution puts updated product for download, even before the distro hits the shops. Is there something really badly wrong with the version you can buy in the shop? NO. Beta-testing period for 7.2 has been extremely long, and while 16 more days helped us clean some more bugs, the product you ca n buy in Wal-Mart today is NOT a "beta" or pre-release quality.
FYI, I'm running that version right now, Roblimo has run it succesfully, and although one would not say it from multitude of "beautifful" responses one can read here, most of the people whop tried the distro are very happy with it.
So, one would expect to see a crowd of happy slashdoters celebrating the fact that there actually exists a company which is not afraid of putting a newer version on the net than on CD-s, but instead all I see is "they are trying to frame us", and "LM sux" all over the /.
(Thx, I guess you have just ruined everything i tried to build during last months. I guess, marketing was right: doing ir SuSe-way is much better idea than doing the distro in open way, as we do. As soon as you try to open-up, tell the truth, and count on human inteligence to understand that you REALLY do all you can, all you get is lot of bashing. )
I have been a passionate /. reader for long time, and I must say I am really surprised: what happened with bunch of friendly nerds that once lived here? All gone to greaner pastures, or what?
Sorry to nitpick, but...
"so its kind of like Mac OS"
"Yeah, exactly"
"So it runs on a Mac"
"No"
Er, actually it *does* run on Macs, along with Alpha, Sparc, MIPS, StrongARM...
Linux != Intel-Linux.
typed on an Apple Firewire-PowerBook G3 500 MHz running LinuxPPC 2000
Ethelred
Everyone wants to be Ethelred. Even I want to be Ethelred.
Ok, now THAT's cool that somebody's wasting their moderator points on a reply two deep on a, what, 12 hour old article that barely got any replies.
Here's a hint, moderators, since you're obviously still reading this - modding down a reply to a 0 score post only makes sense if you really think the reply will get modded down to 0. More to the point, in this case, what I was responding to was obviously more worthy of being modded down, which would have gotten my comment knocked out, too.
But, oh, wait - that wouldn't have hurt someone's karma. So whoever modded this down did it because they don't like ME, and wanted to punish me for writing this reply that four people were going to see, and no one was going to care about.
I'm starting to see why so many people claim the moderation system is broken.
Although I'm guessing that the real truth is, I got modded down by the same bloody moron who posted "EMACS BITCH!!!" as AC.
-=Best Viewed Using [INLINE]=-
Every popular bookstore in my town, including Borders, Barnes & Noble, and a large local store, have copies of SUSE, Mandrake, Caldera, and several versions of RedHat. There's also a huge section of Linux books, from programming to installation to using The Gimp. I'm talking at least ten shelves of distributions and books in Borders, plus a separate display of distributions.
Folks, this is mainstream. If you're worried about the impression that poor installation will give, then you should have been worried about the general mass retail acceptance of Linux that's been going on for several years now. Many of the people I've heard talking about a RedHat box in Borders don't seem like they could install Linux without any help.
Maybe the real question is that why Slashdotters insist that Linux is still an underground movement. It's like someone thinking that The Simpsons is underground--and many people honestly think this. If you can run into a bookstore and buy 50 books on Linux, then it's not esoteric or underground. It makes perfect sense for Wal-Mart to pick up on Linux, because they're into selling what's popular.
(As a footnote, I still think that most of the copies of Linux sold in mass market outlets are for tinkering or seeing what all the fuss is about. I bought a copy of RedHat through CheapBytes a few years ago for the same reason. I had used UNIX for years prior to that, but never installed Linux. My Linux partition has languished, partially because I tired of being in constant upgrade mode.)
Good luck, I had pretty much the same experience as you, no real problems with mandrake 7.1. However, conisdering the problems I ran into when installing mandrake, I must warn you to be carefull with your data. Whatever you do, keep that bootdisk lying around to fix problems.
Jilles
Yes, they've had Linux on the shelves for some time- problem is that they've been pushing the previous version of the distributions they were selling (incl. Mandrake) since they started. To beat everyone else with the latest version of any distribution is something of a coup for Linux and a change of pace for Wal-Mart.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Walked in, needing to buy some spray paint for a house project I was going to do. Spotted the box and snagged it.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Everyone had to start somewhere. If a friend didn't give me a copy of SuSE Linux 5.3 over a year and a half ago (who was given to him by a person at a booth at comdex vegas previous) I would still be ignorant to Linux.
I have since fallen in love with the box and have spent every day since using it. I have found ways to replace the tasks that I was used to doing w/Windows and slowly
I am not a Linux 'guru' or 'expert', but I find it a bit childish and just plain arrogant that you believe that the average user doesnt have the curiousity or the plain determination to figure something out. Yes, there are a lot of people out there that don't have the time, energy.. or even care about technology or open source software.. or what it stands for.. but how many people out there are a hell of a lot better than any of us are waiting for the chance. I will bet that there are 12-13'year olds that will get their parents to take a chance and purchase linux
Mandrake is nice.. I have been using it since 6.1
Unfortunately it's this 'holyer than thou' attitude that scares off new members of the community that we need.
Sorry if this sounded harsh, no ill intended, but I guess I can relate with the person standing at wallmart trying to figure out if linux is worth investing in or not. I was there not to long ago.
.02
--------------------
You're quite right that wading through the complexities of Linux is going to be too difficult for the average non-technical man in the street. But the last two versions of Windows - Win9x and NT 4.0 - with which I have any experience aren't really a whole lot easier to set up from scratch. The only reason that those innocent folks who go down to Best Buy and purchase their first peecee can get any use out of it at all is that that new computer comes all pre-loaded with all that Windows-based software, which works OK right out of the box - at least for a few months!
After a few months, of course, thanks to the fact that the Win9x registry stays fresh and usable about as well as a dead fish on a hot sidewalk, that naive Win9x user is likely to find his his OS works less and less well, finally deteriorating to the point where you can't even get the stupid thing to start. What happens then? Does that naive user buckle down and figure out how to reinstall the works and learn what all those cryptic dialog boxes in the Windows "Control Panel" do? Hell, no, what he does is he sweet-talks one of his fellow workers or some family friend (whom he refers to, in an attempt to be flattering which merely annoys, as a "computer genius" or a "guru,") into coming over to his house and "fixing," that is to say, reinstalling the entire mess. So rather than going home after work and relaxing with a nice cold beer, instead you go do that, and even then they are never really satisfied, because thanks to MS's registry nonsense, whenever you reinstall the OS in the process you wreck all the applications the user has installed.
I hate that. Remember when all you needed to do was just backup of all the files and subdirectories under C:\WP51 or C:\ACAD? Then if the OS somehow became corrupted or you upgraded your hard drive, all you would have to do is restore those directories and maybe one or two SET statements in AUTOEXEC.BAT, and you were up and running again, with all your necessary programs working just the way they used to. Even if you hadn't made that backup before you ran into OS problems, a lot of times you could boot the malfunctioning box off a floppy, back up those program files, FDISK/FORMAT /S, restore the various program dirs, and presto, you were back in business! But no more; now everything is tied into the inscrutable, unfixable registry, so when the OS goes South you lose all your apps as well.
Also, the average PC owned by this sort of user, lacking either a SCSI card or an ethernet card, is damn near impossible to back up anyway, especially from a bootable floppy. Also if the system is hosed to the point where you need to boot off a floppy, you might or might not be able to get to the files on the hard drive, but even if you can, you can't see their long file names at all! So if the user has let his system deteriorate to where he can't even boot anymore, he generally loses all his data files (mainly old emails, nudie pix and MP3s) in the system-rebuilding process too.
I'd like to see a slashdot poll on this:
How many times have you personally been shanghaied into fixing for free some work acquaintance's bit-rotted Win9x box?
( ) never
( ) once
( ) 2-3 times
( ) 4-10 times
( ) lost count
This is the big reason why AOL, despite all its glaring defects, and despite its premium price for dial-ups, is so popular: because it has this dirt-simple installation program that works successfully 95+ percent of the time off the CD, asking the first-user none of those questions everyone knows he can't possibly answer (e.g. "Please enter your ISP's DNS address(es) in the box below"). The last version of AOL software I saw even sidestepped the moderately hairy installation of the MS TCP/IP stack by coming with its own el-bizarro "AOL adapter". And that dumbed-down, painless-to-install software is the reason AOL is usable by millions of people who would never be able to install Win9x, complete with TCP/IP, on a bare box.
No, if the average consumer had to install either Windows or Linux on a bare hard drive before using his PC, more than half of them wouldn't ever use PCs at all. The fact is that for the ordinary man in the street, personal computers these days are like cars in 1905 or radios in 1920; right now, at the current state of the art, they're both too complex and too flaky for general use. The technology just ain't there yet. Nowadays, in contrast, almost anyone can buy a car, learn to drive it, and get good utility out of it.
On the other hand, in 1910, if you liked to play with nuts and bolts, you could have a lot of fun tinkering with your car, with no more investment than a toolbox full of screwdrivers and wrenches; and any bright kid could fool around with radio sets too. Whereas with cars or radios nowadays, even smart people who are mechanically inclined don't mess with all the hermetically sealed boxes and mysterious gadgetry under the hood. Similarly when the computer industry finally cures all the glaring usability failings in home-computer software, I'll bet those computers and that software will be essentially too complicated for most people, even bright ones, to hack around with any more.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@oncentric.net