Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the good-luck-actually-downloading-it dept.
kvandivo writes: "It's now official. Netscape
is now shipping 6 (at least for windows, linux, and mac..)"
It'll probably be just a bit before anyone will actually be able
to download it from any of the official servers.
The nightly builds from mozilla.org are already leaps and bounds ahead of the buggy product that Netscape is pushing onto the world. (2 frozen screens and reboots in the first 10 minutes of using 6.0, everything fine on the Nov 12th Nightly.)
Oh yeah, and a free clue to the Netscape rebadgers: I'm already online, so WHY THE F**K WOULD I WANT AN AOL ICON ON MY DESKTOP?
>Oh yeah, and a free clue to the Netscape rebadgers:
>I'm already online, so WHY THE F**K WOULD I WANT AN
>AOL ICON ON MY DESKTOP?
Lessee...
- AOL owns Netscape
- AOL has a history of advertising itself by putting itself everywhere you look - your tv, your mailbox, your email, your toilet, etc...
Put these 2 together, and it's a wonder that installing Netscape doesn't automagically wipe out any internet connection settings you might already have and replace them with AOL -- all "To make your life easier" as AOL reps tell it. (A la AOL 6.0)
Don't get me wrong - I disagree with this "In your face" style of advertising something that 90% of people aren't going to want - but I see it as a perfectly plausible thing for AOL to do, considering their record.
Re:40mb download? Get lost
by
JurriAlt137n
·
· Score: 3
How in gods name can a browser be 40megs?? Thats the size of a small OS!
How old are you exactly? That's the size of a big OS...
--
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Win32 is speedy, but..
by
PacketMaster
·
· Score: 5
I got the full version early this morning from Netscape w/o any download lag at all. But I'm sure that's different now.
Things Different:
1) Load time is VERY fast.
2) Page rendering is on par with IE5.5
3) Most sites display correctly
Things the Same:
1) BIG FREAKING MEMORY LEAK!!I'm running Net6 on Windows 2000. Ever page I load increases Netscape's memory footprint by approximately 1.5 Mb. I let Yahoo's random page URL keep loading files and I ramped the memory usage up to about 85 Mb before I quit. Closing Netscape and reloading drop the footprint back to 4 Mb, which on first inspection is nice. However it quickly ramps up fast. Even entering data in this form box is increasing the ram count about 4K every 20 characters or so. Netscape 6 definitely should not have been released yet. This is sad and pathetic for the once innovative and powerful Netscape.
According to CNET, IE5.5 is twice as fast as Gecko. We are not talking about a 20% difference...
What is stunning also is that CNET claims Java under Netscape 6.0 is also much slower... which is really missing the point. Netscape 6.0 supports a plugable JVM (OJI)! Which means you have JDK1.3 support right now and better later whereas IE only supports the MS JVM which, as we know, is now frozen in time.
When it comes to Java, Netscape is technologically way ahead. It is miles and miles ahead.
(Same for Mozilla, of course.)
Actually most browsers know have a plugable Java JVM mechanism... except for IE which bundles its own JVMs. That's quite a weakness of IE.
I've been an IE user for a while now mainly because Netscape has been losing the feature war. While I'm certainly not a Microsoft fan, I like Netscape and I like standards conformance (which Netscape has typically been better at), I use a browser a lot and I want to use what makes me feel most comfortable and lets me work the best.
With all that in mind, I was excited to see that N6 was out because I've liked the Mozilla and preview release builds, except that they were buggy and seemingly incomplete.
I like a lot of things in Netscape 6. The Gecko engine is great. It renders pages pretty fast, which is good. The "Modern" skin is pretty cool. Is it a good idea... well, that's another issue, but it's cool. There are a lot of features that I like in IE that weren't in Netscape 4.6.whenever-I-stopped-really-using-it like some of the sidebar stuff and the toolbar. (Yes, I know the toolbar has been in 4.7 or so for a long time, but it took them a long time to get it there!)
Here's the bottom line of my impressions with N6: it's all in the little things!!!
There are two things that are ticking me off enough to possibly send me back to IE. First, arranging the bookmarks. This should be easy: I have imported "toolbar favorites" from IE, I want them to be in my N6 toolbar. I'm a pretty smart guy and I have no idea how to do this. Drag-an-drop isn't supported, so I can't move them. Cut and paste are supported (even though "cut" is enabled in the edit menu. There's a menu command "Set as Personal Toolbar Menu"... which apparently does nothing! I know it's stupid, but these are the things that make me choose IE, not the engine. (Well, I shouldn't say that. If the engine was unacceptable it would influence me. But, being a typical web user, most engines I find are "acceptable", so it's not typically a factor.)
Second big annoyance, I now have five icons on my desktop (I'm using Win2000): Netscape (I wanted this one), "Free AOL Unlimited INternet" (fine, AOL owns Netscape... I'll bear it), "Net2Phone" (quit installing this!), "RealPlayer Basic" (I already had it), "Take5" (See previous, I hate this thing).
Goal for Netscape: Don't tick off you customers by installing worthless things. It may convince some people, but I think it angers more.
Another goal: Do less, do it well. I frankly, don't care about skins. If I did, I would use WindowBlinds. But I do care about being able to set up my "toolbar favorites".
I'm going to continue trying N6, because I like Mozilla and believe it can turn out good products, but I really hope the quality improves.
--
"Let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average." - A. W. Tozer
First impressions:
Yeah, all the bugs aren't fixed
True, but I wasn't expecting them to be. That said, it's actually usable as an everyday browser (which is more than can be said for M18). The main problem with it, though, is that it's slow. Sure, it's much faster than M18, and in normal use, it's fine, but try scrolling down in long document or switching to another virtual desktop for a while, and then switching back. NN4 is significantly faster in both cases.
It also still renders Slashdot's spacer images in the titles of articles with a greenish line around them, so they look like little green squares.
The Linux version doesn't seem to have that bug for me...
Why oh why do they need to do these damn small install files that go out on the 'Net and get everything?
They don't! The installer lets you choose which components it will download. Worked for me, and I didn't get the news, mail, IM or the other useless bits. I would be using Galeon, but until they either provide a complete self-contained RPM or make it an easy compile, I can't be bothered.
I still don't want an installer, though. I want a full install program. Net access from home isn't cheap here in Europe. I want to be able to download the whole thing at work, burn it to CD and take it home. Sigh.
-- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
There are several bugs in Netscape 6 that webmasters will have to work around for a while, just like they have to work around Netscape 4, IE4, and IE5 bugs now. So while it's great that Netscape 6 does a better job at adhering to standards than IE5 does, that alone doesn't justify releasing a product that isn't free of bugs.
On the other hand, I think Netscape had good judgement as to the timing. I don't think waiting another month after branch point would have eliminated all of the nasty bugs, but I think it would have set back the development of the Mozilla trunk and hence NS 6.1+ several weeks. I'm glad the weeks of rtm triage spam and "I can't believe you're not going to fix this for NS 6.0" flamewars are over for now. (Waiting another month before the branch point probably wouldn't have helped much either, because new bugs would have been introduced during that extra month.)
I'm not saying that waiting another month wouldn't have reduced the number of bugs, just that it wouldn't have helped as much as it might seem it would have. And NS did need to get a new browser out the door with NS 4.76 rotting and with IE gaining more and more marketshare.
--
-- The shareholder is always right.
to describe Mozilla to Joe Sixpak
by
dpilot
·
· Score: 4
Simple, Mozilla is the director's cut version of Netscape. That's terminology Joe Sixpak can understand.
-- The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Actually, needing "another month" to fix the most glaring bugs is not "true for every project". What is true for every project is the appearance that another month would be enough to fix all the bugs. Brooks (of the Mythical Man Month) called this the 90% problem. In reality, it takes approximately as long in calendar months (not programmer months) to do the last 10% of a project as it does to do the first 90%. When you take into account that the "fantasy factor" (the multiple of the actual versus predicted time to finish a project) is probably 2x or 3x, it can take a really long time to do the last 10%. I'm willing to bet it will take six months or more to get a dot release of Netscape 6 out the door with most of the outstanding defects fixed.
Walt
Re:Mozilla and Secure Transactions
by
DeadSea
·
· Score: 3
Word of warning. Before you try this, make sure that the directory that Mozilla is installed in is writable by mozilla. After you install the psm you will have to keep the directory writeable due to a bug. If you don't mozilla will crash each time you visit a secure site.
OK, found the problem (It's still me)
by
MarcoAtWork
·
· Score: 3
OK, I found the problem (at least in mozilla, I'll retry NS6 ASAP).
I have the proxy set up as 'autoconfigure' which is just a way that simplifies IS's life, since theoretically NS goes to the autoconfig URL, and gets the proxy settings, hosts not to proxy, etc. etc. etc.
Well, it turns out that this feature seems broken in Mozilla, in fact, if I remove the autoconfig, and specify the proxy server manually, everything works just fine. I will try this on NS6 as soon if it finishes downloading.
yep, that was it, now even NS6 works
-- --
the cake is a lie
Re:OK, found the problem (It's still me)
by
Number6.2
·
· Score: 3
This "problem" does not supprise me. The Fine Folks at Mozilla, while developing a damnfine browser, seem to be in denial about proxy servers: the proxy "feature" was fixed and broken about three times in the last six months (at least in Linux. YMMV).
Needless to say, Moz works like a champ now (thanks guys!). I guess most of these Netscape types don't have to live behind a firewall (it doesn't seem like they have to test through a firewall, either...)
Having said that, For God's sake, Moz/Netscape guys, don't stop! We wouldn't complain if we didn't care!
Stirring the pot since nineteen mumblty mumble...
-- "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him"
--Voltaire
Did they even QA this ? Also security problems
by
MarcoAtWork
·
· Score: 4
What about making the installer application proxy-aware ? I am behind a fairly fascist firewall that doesn't allow anything through (I have to use a proxy for http) and obviously the installer application just hangs.
Fortunately the ftp site also carries the big tar file which I could download easily (and much faster than I thought, very close to 100KB/s average)
That said my first impression is not that good since besides taking like years to start up (on a p3-550 w/ 128 megs) every time I try to access a site, *any* site, I get the following
got a request
JavaScript error:
line 0: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIBrowserInstance.loadUrl]" nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)" location: "JS frame:: chrome://navigator/content/navigator.js:: OpenBookmarkURL:: line 714" data: no]
JavaScript error:
chrome://navigator/content/sessionHistoryUI.js line 150: gURLBar has no properties
If the URL is typed in directly I just get the gURLBar error, and not the previous one, in any case it doesn't work.
Also interesting that opening up the preferences dialog gives this on the console
we don't handle eBorderStyle_close yet... please fix me
*** panel to load is = chrome://communicator/content/pref/pref-navigator. xul
*** queueing up a panel...
this is on a fairly vanilla RH 7 box, which should have been QA'd by the NS folks I think... the second time I ran this abomination it doesn't even give me an error, it just refuses to load any page (I still get the errors if I click on the bookmarks tho).
An interesting tidbit, the default setting is to *save* all the data from previously submitted forms and passwords to sites (check in the preferences), and you can even display that previously entered data. If you leave your netscape unattended, prepare to be burned (IE at least *asks* you the first time if you want to save the passwords/form data)
Thats deeply unrealistic. W3C recent standards are extremely complex (I have the schema spec before me: its in three parts, over around 300 pages, is very informally written, and deeply confusing). 100% compliance is very hard, when you also want 100% compatibility with buggy web pages.
Put bluntly: if you think 100% compliance and compatibility are possible, go do it. The world will beat a path to your door.
> It was close. So close. Another month, maybe two at most, to fix the most glaring standards-compliance and stability bugs. That's all it would have taken.
This is true for every project. But there is a day where you have to ship. If they had waited a couple of month, then there would still have been a few remaining bugs. You would have whinned the same way.
See how linux 2.4 is slipping. More than a year late. Sure, it doesn't matter, it is free software. But for netscape6, it matters. The marketshare is almost 100% IE. In a few month, the web would be IE only. Be glad they released something. Be _very_ glad.
.. I have my cookie prefs in Netscape (4.75/X11 Linux) set to "only allow cookies from the originating server as the page" and the download links (click here... no, now click here... no, now click HERE...) stop if you don't have 'accept all cookies' on.
Maybe it was a glitch. Anyone else see this happen?
-- ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
Netscape Had better pull this one off
by
zrk
·
· Score: 3
I think this is make-or-break time for them. It's about time they released something, but on the other hand, one would hope all standards have been adhered to, not just 'interpreted' or adapted like IEEEEEEE.
B: "Hey rocky, watch me pull a Netscape out of my hat?"
R: "Again? That trick never works"
Get it from ZDNet's download center, and since it's just the basic install file, use the UK's servers for your download. It went pretty fast for me.
First impressions: Yeah, all the bugs aren't fixed, which kind of sucks, cause there's a pretty nasty JS one that I posted about two weeks ago that hasn't been fixed in the nightlies and severely hampers some Intranet work I do. It also still renders Slashdot's spacer images in the titles of articles with a greenish line around them, so they look like little green squares.
If you've been using Mozilla for the past six months, you won't notice anything new, other than the fact that it takes up twice as much memory, loads a bunch of AOL shortcuts (I'm using the Win32 version) on your desktop and will allow you to integrate RealPlayer 8, Flash, etc. with your download.
Second Impressions: Why oh why do they need to do these damn small install files that go out on the 'Net and get everything? What I really want is a web interface that will let me pick my components and then send me an installer package custom made for my selections. It can't be that hard.
I would be using Galeon, but until they either provide a complete self-contained RPM or make it an easy compile, I can't be bothered.
Huh? I test Galeon regularly but I've never compiled neither Galeon nor Mozilla. The Mozilla RPMs provided by Chris Blizzard (http://people.redhat.com/blizzard/so ftw are/)
work fine together with the Galeon RPMs downloadable from Sourceforge. It's three RPMs you have to install (mozilla, mozilla-devel, and galeon) and I don't see why they should be packaged as only one, and loose the modularity.
If you want to try Galeon 0.8, you might have better luck with more recent Mozilla builds than M18 (Blizzard has those too).
It was close. So close. Another month, maybe two at most, to fix the most glaring standards-compliance and stability bugs. That's all it would have taken.
But no, they had to hand the project over to the marketers. So in the end, we get a Mozilla nightly plus a zillion ads foisted on us in every aspect of the interface. An interface which breaks every single standard known to man (it doesn't even get Windows quite right.
At least the speed issues are more or less resolved. But all the same, I'm sticking to Mozilla for now. NS6 should be treated as an unfinished project, because frankly it is. ----------
You can always spend an extra month fixing bugs in any reasonably sized project. In the Open Source world you can usually say "You'll get it when it's ready", however Netscape has commerical pressures and had to set a firm date.
Also, there are very few parallels between Mozilla/Netscape6 and Linux 2.4, so don't try to make them. I wish people would stop saying 2.4 is late. It's not. Linus said he'd like a shorter development cycle, aimed at getting 2.4 out at the end of last year. That didn't prove to be achievable, but that doesn't make 2.4 late.
One of things people have to realise is that there was no hard target for functionality in 2.4 (other than to fix the performance problem the MindCraft benchmarks exploited). If 2.4 was shipped in Dec 99 it would have been with less additional functionality than the 2.4 which is likely to be released next month.
... fix the most glaring standards-compliance... bugs...
i really wish people would stop propogating this mistruth... the standards compliance already far exceeds that of IE and Netscape 4.x. if you don't believe go take a look at the dom in IE and then in Mozilla and compare it to the w3c's recommendation for dom2. I can't even do basic things like getElementById in IE... so unless you think 99% of standards compliance is not good enough for you, don't complain! (99% is close enough for me)
An interface which breaks every single standard known to man (it doesn't even get Windows quite right.
Try the "native.windows" theme on mozilla.themes.org. It gives Moz a Windows/IE look-and-feel and seems to fix some of the interface issues by using native-looking widgets. It also just seems quicker, although I'm sure that's only due to my own f-ed perceptual associations between IE and the default moz interface. --
The Opera browser is 100% W3C compliant and does a very good job in retaining compatibility with bugged web pages. It also gives you several options for 'fixing' a bugged web page -- a button toggles the formatting of the page on or off, and you can even set it to lie to the server about what browser it is. This really is a dynamite little browser that puts both IE and NS to shame.
Opera also has dozens of features that the other guys seem to have missed. I was so excited when I heard that Mozilla/NS 6.0 had a 'zoom' function...then I saw they only changed the text size. Opera can zoom into or out of a web page, changing text size, table sizes, and resampling any inline images. It also has a new 'fullscreen' mode that's amazing...I'm wondering if I can sneak Opera into work to replace Powerpoint for presentations. By comparison, NS 6.0's new features seem mostly limited to cookie control and changing skins.
I downloaded NS 6.0 for NT this morning. Some bugs in the user interface, but I haven't found any fatal bugs yet. It's nice and I might use it for work (where NS is allowed and Opera is not), but the NS/Mozilla tech is not good enough to replace the Opera browser I use at home.
-- Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
The Opera browser is 100% W3C compliant and does a very good job in retaining compatibility with bugged web pages.
Oh, c'mon, you didn't *really* mean that, did you?
As for the standards part, sorry to remind you, but Mozilla and so Netscape 6 have the crown for the most standards compliance around (and they're still not 100% conformant). Opera does a good job, but every browser still have issues.
Now, about compatibility with buggy web pages you gotta be joking... some time ago I tried to test some pages from where I work in Opera, just to see how it behaved. Most HTML there is written by lazy designers using Dreamweaver, so it is a complete mess and a total junk, unless you are willing to spend some hours to fix it. IE shows them OK (after all, Dreamweaver outputs for IE). Mozilla does just as good a job as long as you fix the Javascript issues (just add DOM compatibility to the scripts). NS4 does OK also. But Opera completely garbles the thing. I was so shocked by the horrid result that I never touched Opera again.
You may argue that "Opera is supposed to be about compliance, not buggy HTML", but in the real world we have buggy HTML in every place you go, thanks to old browsers not conforming to standards. And in that Mozilla kicks the hell out of Opera. Just check bugzilla and look for bugs with the "compat" keyword.
You may like Opera, it may be fast and all, but please, get facts a little straight before claiming things like "100% compliant".
the uninstaller is one of the quickest and cleanest I've seen.
el_doop
It is nice, but DELETE YOUR OLD PROFILES!!!!
by
cybrthng
·
· Score: 4
Netscape 6.0 is amazingly fast/smooth under Windows NT. They did a good job to get it out, but it still has its bugs.
The *MOST* Important thing to do is remove *ANY* old mozillareg.dat's, and OLD Netscape Beta profiles and any old stale files.
I had an old profile that it upgraded, but everything just acted goofy, crashed, or rendered wrong (don't know why). After deleting the old profiles and creating a new one everything runs MUCH better, LOOKS much better and doesn't act goofy.
I'm glad they released this one. Its good to have a product they can get contsructive criticism from as well as build a foundation from. Better to ship now to get the product out then delay another 32 months to bloat it.
Re:Mozilla and Secure Transactions
by
crumley
·
· Score: 4
What OS are you using mozilla on? If its Linux
or Windows, its really easy to add SSL support.
Under the Debug Menu, choose Install PSM. Then
follow the directions on the page that you get
taken to.
--
-- Preventive War is like committing suicide for fear of death. - Otto Von Bismarck
Be sure to grab some themes at Netscape Theme Park, as well as here. I am using the new Orbit theme, and Sky Pilot. Both themes react very well, and make browsing a lot of fun.
Slashdot Mirror
The nightly builds from mozilla.org are already leaps and bounds ahead of the buggy product that Netscape is pushing onto the world. (2 frozen screens and reboots in the first 10 minutes of using 6.0, everything fine on the Nov 12th Nightly.)
Oh yeah, and a free clue to the Netscape rebadgers: I'm already online, so WHY THE F**K WOULD I WANT AN AOL ICON ON MY DESKTOP?
How in gods name can a browser be 40megs?? Thats the size of a small OS!
How old are you exactly? That's the size of a big OS...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
I got the full version early this morning from Netscape w/o any download lag at all. But I'm sure that's different now.
Things Different:
1) Load time is VERY fast.
2) Page rendering is on par with IE5.5
3) Most sites display correctly
Things the Same:
1) BIG FREAKING MEMORY LEAK!!I'm running Net6 on Windows 2000. Ever page I load increases Netscape's memory footprint by approximately 1.5 Mb. I let Yahoo's random page URL keep loading files and I ramped the memory usage up to about 85 Mb before I quit. Closing Netscape and reloading drop the footprint back to 4 Mb, which on first inspection is nice. However it quickly ramps up fast. Even entering data in this form box is increasing the ram count about 4K every 20 characters or so. Netscape 6 definitely should not have been released yet. This is sad and pathetic for the once innovative and powerful Netscape.
Some people take their .sig way too seriously
According to CNET, IE5.5 is twice as fast as Gecko. We are not talking about a 20% difference...
What is stunning also is that CNET claims Java under Netscape 6.0 is also much slower... which is really missing the point. Netscape 6.0 supports a plugable JVM (OJI)! Which means you have JDK1.3 support right now and better later whereas IE only supports the MS JVM which, as we know, is now frozen in time.
When it comes to Java, Netscape is technologically way ahead. It is miles and miles ahead.
(Same for Mozilla, of course.)
Actually most browsers know have a plugable Java JVM mechanism... except for IE which bundles its own JVMs. That's quite a weakness of IE.
With all that in mind, I was excited to see that N6 was out because I've liked the Mozilla and preview release builds, except that they were buggy and seemingly incomplete.
I like a lot of things in Netscape 6. The Gecko engine is great. It renders pages pretty fast, which is good. The "Modern" skin is pretty cool. Is it a good idea... well, that's another issue, but it's cool. There are a lot of features that I like in IE that weren't in Netscape 4.6.whenever-I-stopped-really-using-it like some of the sidebar stuff and the toolbar. (Yes, I know the toolbar has been in 4.7 or so for a long time, but it took them a long time to get it there!)
Here's the bottom line of my impressions with N6: it's all in the little things!!!
There are two things that are ticking me off enough to possibly send me back to IE. First, arranging the bookmarks. This should be easy: I have imported "toolbar favorites" from IE, I want them to be in my N6 toolbar. I'm a pretty smart guy and I have no idea how to do this. Drag-an-drop isn't supported, so I can't move them. Cut and paste are supported (even though "cut" is enabled in the edit menu. There's a menu command "Set as Personal Toolbar Menu"... which apparently does nothing! I know it's stupid, but these are the things that make me choose IE, not the engine. (Well, I shouldn't say that. If the engine was unacceptable it would influence me. But, being a typical web user, most engines I find are "acceptable", so it's not typically a factor.)
Second big annoyance, I now have five icons on my desktop (I'm using Win2000): Netscape (I wanted this one), "Free AOL Unlimited INternet" (fine, AOL owns Netscape... I'll bear it), "Net2Phone" (quit installing this!), "RealPlayer Basic" (I already had it), "Take5" (See previous, I hate this thing).
Goal for Netscape: Don't tick off you customers by installing worthless things. It may convince some people, but I think it angers more.
Another goal: Do less, do it well. I frankly, don't care about skins. If I did, I would use WindowBlinds. But I do care about being able to set up my "toolbar favorites".
I'm going to continue trying N6, because I like Mozilla and believe it can turn out good products, but I really hope the quality improves.
"Let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average." - A. W. Tozer
Yeah, all the bugs aren't fixed
True, but I wasn't expecting them to be. That said, it's actually usable as an everyday browser (which is more than can be said for M18). The main problem with it, though, is that it's slow. Sure, it's much faster than M18, and in normal use, it's fine, but try scrolling down in long document or switching to another virtual desktop for a while, and then switching back. NN4 is significantly faster in both cases.
It also still renders Slashdot's spacer images in the titles of articles with a greenish line around them, so they look like little green squares.
The Linux version doesn't seem to have that bug for me...
Why oh why do they need to do these damn small install files that go out on the 'Net and get everything?
They don't! The installer lets you choose which components it will download. Worked for me, and I didn't get the news, mail, IM or the other useless bits. I would be using Galeon, but until they either provide a complete self-contained RPM or make it an easy compile, I can't be bothered. I still don't want an installer, though. I want a full install program. Net access from home isn't cheap here in Europe. I want to be able to download the whole thing at work, burn it to CD and take it home. Sigh.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
On the other hand, I think Netscape had good judgement as to the timing. I don't think waiting another month after branch point would have eliminated all of the nasty bugs, but I think it would have set back the development of the Mozilla trunk and hence NS 6.1+ several weeks. I'm glad the weeks of rtm triage spam and "I can't believe you're not going to fix this for NS 6.0" flamewars are over for now. (Waiting another month before the branch point probably wouldn't have helped much either, because new bugs would have been introduced during that extra month.)
I'm not saying that waiting another month wouldn't have reduced the number of bugs, just that it wouldn't have helped as much as it might seem it would have. And NS did need to get a new browser out the door with NS 4.76 rotting and with IE gaining more and more marketshare.
--
The shareholder is always right.
Simple, Mozilla is the director's cut version of Netscape. That's terminology Joe Sixpak can understand.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Actually, needing "another month" to fix the most glaring bugs is not "true for every project". What is true for every project is the appearance that another month would be enough to fix all the bugs. Brooks (of the Mythical Man Month) called this the 90% problem. In reality, it takes approximately as long in calendar months (not programmer months) to do the last 10% of a project as it does to do the first 90%. When you take into account that the "fantasy factor" (the multiple of the actual versus predicted time to finish a project) is probably 2x or 3x, it can take a really long time to do the last 10%. I'm willing to bet it will take six months or more to get a dot release of Netscape 6 out the door with most of the outstanding defects fixed.
Walt
Word of warning. Before you try this, make sure that the directory that Mozilla is installed in is writable by mozilla. After you install the psm you will have to keep the directory writeable due to a bug. If you don't mozilla will crash each time you visit a secure site.
OK, I found the problem (at least in mozilla, I'll retry NS6 ASAP).
I have the proxy set up as 'autoconfigure' which is just a way that simplifies IS's life, since theoretically NS goes to the autoconfig URL, and gets the proxy settings, hosts not to proxy, etc. etc. etc.
Well, it turns out that this feature seems broken in Mozilla, in fact, if I remove the autoconfig, and specify the proxy server manually, everything works just fine. I will try this on NS6 as soon if it finishes downloading.
yep, that was it, now even NS6 works
-- the cake is a lie
What about making the installer application proxy-aware ? I am behind a fairly fascist firewall that doesn't allow anything through (I have to use a proxy for http) and obviously the installer application just hangs.
:: chrome://navigator/content/navigator.js :: OpenBookmarkURL :: line 714" data: no]
. xul
Fortunately the ftp site also carries the big tar file which I could download easily (and much faster than I thought, very close to 100KB/s average)
That said my first impression is not that good since besides taking like years to start up (on a p3-550 w/ 128 megs) every time I try to access a site, *any* site, I get the following
got a request
JavaScript error:
line 0: uncaught exception: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE) [nsIBrowserInstance.loadUrl]" nsresult: "0x80004005 (NS_ERROR_FAILURE)" location: "JS frame
JavaScript error:
chrome://navigator/content/sessionHistoryUI.js line 150: gURLBar has no properties
If the URL is typed in directly I just get the gURLBar error, and not the previous one, in any case it doesn't work.
Also interesting that opening up the preferences dialog gives this on the console
we don't handle eBorderStyle_close yet... please fix me
*** panel to load is = chrome://communicator/content/pref/pref-navigator
*** queueing up a panel...
this is on a fairly vanilla RH 7 box, which should have been QA'd by the NS folks I think... the second time I ran this abomination it doesn't even give me an error, it just refuses to load any page (I still get the errors if I click on the bookmarks tho).
An interesting tidbit, the default setting is to *save* all the data from previously submitted forms and passwords to sites (check in the preferences), and you can even display that previously entered data. If you leave your netscape unattended, prepare to be burned (IE at least *asks* you the first time if you want to save the passwords/form data)
-- the cake is a lie
Thats deeply unrealistic. W3C recent standards are extremely complex (I have the schema spec before me: its in three parts, over around 300 pages, is very informally written, and deeply confusing). 100% compliance is very hard, when you also want 100% compatibility with buggy web pages.
Put bluntly: if you think 100% compliance and compatibility are possible, go do it. The world will beat a path to your door.
> It was close. So close. Another month, maybe two at most, to fix the most glaring standards-compliance and stability bugs. That's all it would have taken.
This is true for every project. But there is a day where you have to ship. If they had waited a couple of month, then there would still have been a few remaining bugs. You would have whinned the same way.
See how linux 2.4 is slipping. More than a year late. Sure, it doesn't matter, it is free software. But for netscape6, it matters. The marketshare is almost 100% IE. In a few month, the web would be IE only. Be glad they released something. Be _very_ glad.
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
.. I have my cookie prefs in Netscape (4.75/X11 Linux) set to "only allow cookies from the originating server as the page" and the download links (click here... no, now click here... no, now click HERE...) stop if you don't have 'accept all cookies' on.
Maybe it was a glitch. Anyone else see this happen?
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
I think this is make-or-break time for them. It's about time they released something, but on the other hand, one would hope all standards have been adhered to, not just 'interpreted' or adapted like IEEEEEEE. B: "Hey rocky, watch me pull a Netscape out of my hat?"
R: "Again? That trick never works"
Get it from ZDNet's download center, and since it's just the basic install file, use the UK's servers for your download. It went pretty fast for me.
First impressions:
Yeah, all the bugs aren't fixed, which kind of sucks, cause there's a pretty nasty JS one that I posted about two weeks ago that hasn't been fixed in the nightlies and severely hampers some Intranet work I do. It also still renders Slashdot's spacer images in the titles of articles with a greenish line around them, so they look like little green squares.
If you've been using Mozilla for the past six months, you won't notice anything new, other than the fact that it takes up twice as much memory, loads a bunch of AOL shortcuts (I'm using the Win32 version) on your desktop and will allow you to integrate RealPlayer 8, Flash, etc. with your download.
Second Impressions:
Why oh why do they need to do these damn small install files that go out on the 'Net and get everything? What I really want is a web interface that will let me pick my components and then send me an installer package custom made for my selections. It can't be that hard.
Netscape wasn't ready yet.
It was close. So close. Another month, maybe two at most, to fix the most glaring standards-compliance and stability bugs. That's all it would have taken.
But no, they had to hand the project over to the marketers. So in the end, we get a Mozilla nightly plus a zillion ads foisted on us in every aspect of the interface. An interface which breaks every single standard known to man (it doesn't even get Windows quite right.
At least the speed issues are more or less resolved. But all the same, I'm sticking to Mozilla for now. NS6 should be treated as an unfinished project, because frankly it is.
----------
A fast mirror of Netscape 6 will be available at ftp://ftp.heckard.com/pub/netscape6/http://www.hec kard.com/pub/netscape6/
I'm working on downloading it now, should be done shortly. Netscape sites are really, really slow.
Opera also has dozens of features that the other guys seem to have missed. I was so excited when I heard that Mozilla/NS 6.0 had a 'zoom' function...then I saw they only changed the text size. Opera can zoom into or out of a web page, changing text size, table sizes, and resampling any inline images. It also has a new 'fullscreen' mode that's amazing...I'm wondering if I can sneak Opera into work to replace Powerpoint for presentations. By comparison, NS 6.0's new features seem mostly limited to cookie control and changing skins.
I downloaded NS 6.0 for NT this morning. Some bugs in the user interface, but I haven't found any fatal bugs yet. It's nice and I might use it for work (where NS is allowed and Opera is not), but the NS/Mozilla tech is not good enough to replace the Opera browser I use at home.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
the uninstaller is one of the quickest and cleanest I've seen. el_doop
The *MOST* Important thing to do is remove *ANY* old mozillareg.dat's, and OLD Netscape Beta profiles and any old stale files.
I had an old profile that it upgraded, but everything just acted goofy, crashed, or rendered wrong (don't know why). After deleting the old profiles and creating a new one everything runs MUCH better, LOOKS much better and doesn't act goofy.
I'm glad they released this one. Its good to have a product they can get contsructive criticism from as well as build a foundation from. Better to ship now to get the product out then delay another 32 months to bloat it.
What OS are you using mozilla on? If its Linux or Windows, its really easy to add SSL support. Under the Debug Menu, choose Install PSM. Then follow the directions on the page that you get taken to.
--
Preventive War is like committing suicide for fear of death. - Otto Von Bismarck
Be sure to grab some themes at Netscape Theme Park, as well as here. I am using the new Orbit theme, and Sky Pilot. Both themes react very well, and make browsing a lot of fun.