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OSHA Announces Final Ergonomics Program Standard
Desdinova77 writes "OSHA has announced rules for proper ergonomics to prevent RSI type injuries
On their site (I had trouble gtting to this site but it is the 'official' link on the OSHA site. There is also a story about it on Yahoo " Is this going to have an affect on any of your offices?
I doubt my broken couch meets the specs.
People will continue to be affected by "Repetitive Stress Injuries". Get a copy of Pain Free at Your PC to find out why RSI's strike some people & leave others unaffected. Muscles work in pairs, and if you're just exercising one of two muscles, of course there's going to be some pain when other muscles have to cover for the one that's atrophied away. Ergonomic solutions can only make things worse, placing less of a demand on more muscles, forcing them to atrophy away... (I should know - I have a very expensive Datahand keyboard sitting unused next to me on my desk. It didn't help. Right now i'm typing on a Keytronic Wireless keyboard, with only a small amount of trouble.) Correct your posture - it'll do wonders for your ability to type.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
I was working for a temp agency who basically stuck me in job after job where my purpose was to sit at whatever flat surface they had in whatever crammed but available spot in their building that they could spare, punching in 10-key as fast as possible, duplicating data from hard-copy files for 9 hours a day until the job was over and I could be assigned to yet another company at yet another crammed but available flat-spot where they could squeeze a monitor and keyboard and stack of hard-copy.
I finally quit one day and told them that if I was going to destroy my hands, wrists and forearms, it was going to be for something a little more brain-grabbing and interesting than punching in social security numbers.
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seumas.com
The force required to strike the keys on a manual typewriter forces adjustments to the way you hold your hands, which effectively minimize RSI, which is why carpal tunnel and other keyboard-related RSI is relatively new. Maybe the computer-makers in Brazil (the movie, not the country) had the right idea, though those screens can't be good for your eyes.
If a company runs it's business in such a way that the employees are injured or die simply by performing their jobs, something is wrong. Probably criminally wrong. I'm not sure how to go about reconciling these two views. I'm fairly sure that I don't like OSHA's approach, however.
I used to work for a company that made PCBs. These were military boards and needed to be sprayed with a conformal coating. The chemicals in the conformal coating did NOT require masks according to OSHA regulations. But still, it was a spray can full of sticky stuff, and the ventilation, while also OSHA approved, wasn't the best. So the company decided, on it's own, that it would be nice if the workers had a mask to protect them from the stuff.
So far everything sounds nice. The company is going beyond OSHA requirements to keep it's workers safe and healthy.
So where's the problem? Well, OSHA didn't say that that particular chemical being applied in that particular facility required a mask. But if the company was going to require masks, there were some OSHA regulations concerning that. I forget all of the details, but the company would have been required to provide masks for ALL employees, not just those that wanted them. (there were two guys that often did the spraying, but about 20 that worked in the same area and could conceivably be required to spray the coating at some time.) The company would have had to provide individual storage for each mask, and there wasn't that much room. The company would have had to perform safety inspections of the masks, and fill out the appropriate OSHA paperwork to document the safety inspections for the masks. (Not a whole lot, only a few hours every quarter or so, perhaps a couple of day's payroll in a year.) And to top it off, the company had just given itself another liability if there did happen to be a problem with a mask or the paperwork.
In short, it cost so much to provide masks to the two people that they just said "If you want one, buy it yourself."
To email, do the obvious.
Absolutely. OSHA is to keep people like factory workers from, say, falling in vats of dangerous chemicals, or getting sucked into giant machines. As a former manufacturing manager in large textitle plants, I can assure everyone that these ARE still real problems in the US. Whether or not the fat-ass coder in the next cube's back hurts from his chair or from eating too much junk food is not a serious problem. A little bit of soreness from typing is not a problem, no matter what the loudest bitchers and whiners say. IT people are used to being coddled, and it's disgusting to have a government agency side with them.
OSHA will not hold employers liable for employees' home offices, and does not expect employers to inspect the home offices of their employees.
Thanks for the Pointer. I am still concerned that some eedjot in HR at my place-o-work will decide that it is simpler to stop telecommuting. Already, one is supposed to have a dedicated room cannot used for other purposes during business hours. I understand the distress at possible slackers, but it would be simpler if they laid out expectations about productivity during business hours.
Likewise, RSI is not just an employee issue. It is also an employer issue. Compliance may not end up being as costly as expected, and could ave in employee retention.
That's not true. In many regions, there aren't that many jobs, or one company holds a monopoly in a particular industry in the region you live in. You can't just tell people, "Sorry, you'll need to uproot your family and move to another state if you want to work in a safe environment." That's absurd.
Sooner or later, we'll have another recession. And when we do, it may be impossible for some people to find other jobs.
Look at developers! We pick our employers based on many factors. Imagine a startup having to comply with these rediculous ergonomic laws!
What's wrong with that? If a startup can't afford to purchase proper chairs and desks, then they have bigger problems.
BTW, you misspelled "ridiculous".
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Sorry, but miners dying from black lung doesn't quite equate with a coder's fingers hurting.
It's really this (small) part of your comment I'd like to reply to.
Yes, government regulation didn't stop child labour - a lot of complex things acted together to do that. But I disagree that it wouldn't come back if the regs were removed, at least in all countries - cf the row over who makes Nike shoes. Wouldn't it have been better if we could have skipped the (dangerous, unpleasant, life-threatening) things people had to do to get the government regs in place?
Possibly a little OT, but have you ever read The Road To Wigan Pier (Orwell)?
nal 11
I agree that there are some good applications for the Ergonomic principles. What I do not agree with is any entity is able to give a broad "all encompasing" standard that applies to all industries. Lets look at it.. A company would have to have an ergonomics program if: An employee had to kneel or squat for more than 2 hours TOTAL per day (Plummers, Electricians, Baseball catchers????), Repeating the same motions every "few" seconds or repeating a cycle of motions... Look... I work in an industry that is absolutely HUGE (Trucking Industry). I have over 7 years experience with OSHA and their inspectors (conceit comes to mind). The cost to re-engineer all of our facilities to be adjustable would put us out of business. And that is not something you want to do to a company that ships 6% of the GNP. Ooopss.. Did I give away too much information about where I work? Here's the checklist for a SEAT for you techies out there: 1.Backrest provides support for lower back (a good one) 2.Seat width and depth accomodate specific employee (not too big/small). 3. Seat front does not press against the back of employee's knees and lower legs (not too long) 4. Seat has cushioning and is rounded/ has "waterfall" front. Armrests support both forearms while employee performs tasks and do not interfere with movement. Sheesh.... Do you see where I'm coming from here? Name an industry and it will be affected by this standard. Dry Cleaners? Yup. Veterinary Hospitals? Yup. Archery Club? Yup. However, Agriculture, Construction, Maritime and Railroads are not affected. Hmmmm....
Have to reply to this, too. Sorry : Studies done my NIOSH including companies like Coke, Delta and a few others, noted that there was no difference in the injury rates from those employees who used back braces and those who didn't. The only people who got injured more where those employees who were part of the group wearing the braces and then decided they did not want to wear them six months into the study. Sorry, I can't remember the link to the study.
I'm planning on making an upgrade from my brown un-padded folding chair, the one that when I get really antsy on I use a pillow to pad, to a padded folding chair. "Big Lots" has nice keyboards for only $8 although they'll make your hands fall off in a couple years, they're only 8 bucks!
My hypothesis regarding monkeys and typewritters revolves around the concept of broken typewritters and smeared feces on
Yes, they do, because you'll be applying for workers' comp if you do get RSI.
If you completely remove yourself from the workers' comp system, you might have an argument...
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
As a victim of RSI, I am glad OSHA is finally coming out with some standards. But, even so, most people commenting here don't understand the problem.
The new OSHA standards fail on one point: they mandate the employer attempt certain recommended 'quick fixes.' But those general recommendations won't fix the problem for many. For example, I can't use a mouse without immediate and intense pain--I am certain it causes tendinitis for many users. Yet the standard does not address using other input appliances instead.
Another problem with the standards is that it tries to set uniform conditions for the wide variety of human configurations. But one big problem causing RSI is that the human is made to adapt to the machine pace, and some human variety in doing physical tasks, to rest muscle groups and use others, is ignored.
I believe there are no 'quick fixes' for RSI. Ergonomics might delay the onset of RSI for many. But forced mechanical work at computer pace will certainly cause RSI for many. Those who believe 'it will never happen to me, because I use a Microsoft Natural Keyboard,' or whatever, are deluding themselves.
Although I support OSHA setting this standard, there is one valid point by some business groups. It would be better to make the standard scientific, and mandate good recording of injuries and solutions. Then we can determine the best way to prevent and treat these problems. But setting a standard now in concrete won't solve much, only delay a solution. The provision to hide from the patient the health care provider's assessment of the injury is just plain stupid--maybe it is a sop to some business and insurance interests, but it is surely unethical in medical care.
For those young people who are just starting working intensely with computers, I would seriously urge you to learn a backup profession, in case you are injured and unable to work with computers fulltime.
The problem is that OSHA can't just wave a magic wand and make employers protect their workers. They have limited agents, and at a reasonable cost they can force only a small percentage of employers to comply with the law. You can sue employers after the fact, but often this will simply encourage employers to hire more lawyers rather than improve conditions.
If employers don't care about safety and employees don't care enough to switch jobs, then OSHA is mostly an annoyance. They can make employers fill out paperwork. They can force the provision of specific equipment or prohibit specific tasks, but ultimately OSHA doesn't have the time, information, or resources to force employers to be safe.
At the same time, the costs are enourmous. Because OSHA is not omniscient and doesn't have the resources to be everywhere all the time, they force a great deal of compliance costs on employers. From the perspective of most employers, OSHA is an impediment to doing their jobs. You have to fill out forms, buy new equipment to comply with regulations, go through complex procedures every time there is an injury or safety problem, etc. The employer might already be running a safe shop, but still be forced to jump through OSHA's hoops. Or he might be running an unsafe shop, and is simply cleaning up those areas that OSHA absolutely demads while ignoring far greater safety hazards that are not covered by OSHA regulations.
OSHA doesn't necessarily make workplaces safer. It simply makes people fill out paperwork claiming that they are safer. But in the process, you give free reign to lawyers, ambitious bureaucrats, and cynical employees who work the system to their own advantage. Forcing employers to buy new keyboards or slow down the pace of work has dubious value from a safety standpoint, but I can guaruntee you that it will open up a flood of lawsuits, waste lots of managers' time, and reduce productivity accross the board.
Keep this in mind too: If safety measures are cheap and painless, most employers will adopt them voluntarily. They don't cost much and they help retain employees. If they are expensive, then if you impose them by force of law, employers will just take that as a cost of hiring someone and offer them correspondingly less money. In neither case do employees benefit. It might appear that they benefit-- they get new safety features appearantly for free-- but the costs are either going to come out of their next raise, or out of future jobs not created for other workes.
So I don't believe that a world without OSHA would be substantially less safe than the world we have now, and even if it would, those who don't like it do have choices.
Lasty, I take the position that non-compliance will cost more, in the long run.
Then why do we need OSHA at all? Employers will discover this for themselves and implement these safety standards voluntarily. At most we would then need an informational campaign informing employers of this fact.
Wouldn't it have been better if we could have skipped the (dangerous, unpleasant, life-threatening) things people had to do to get the government regs in place?
It would have been nice if we could have skipped the whole industrial revolution and gone straight from agriculture to e-commerce. It would be nice if everyone had a 30-hour per week desk job and made six figures. It would be nice if no one had to work at all.
But in the real world, people are poor. And poor people sometimes choose to take what seems to us desperate measures to get ahead. If you outlaw child labor in those countries, you take away a source of income for desperately poor families. In many cases that means that the children you care so much about are going to starve, or at least have to skip even more meals than they already do. Is that what you want? How does it benefit those kids to tell them they can't work if their familiies are depending on that income to survive?
It's easy for us to sit in our comfy suburban houses and poo-poo those poor people who are forcing their kids to work. But those people are not all heartless monsters. They care about their kids every bit as much as we care about ours. And it probably breaks their hearts to see their kids working long hours.
But the solution is not to force those families even farther into poverty. The solution is to figure out why there are still desperately poor countries and help parents raise their standards of living so they don't have to rely on their kids' labor. Once that happens, child labor will disappear by itself. Until that happens, banning it will only lead to children working in black-market sweatshops that are even worse than the ones they are in now.
Well, have you ever worked a crappy job? Have you ever been an unskilled worker in a high-unemployment area? There are a great many people who can't just get up and move to a new job.
Not immediately. Not all at once. But ultimately companies that treat their employees well have a competitive advantage over those that don't. It might be that 90% of employees stay, but the other 10% is enough to punish them economically.
I'm not saying this will magically wipe out abuses over night. I am saying, however, that nothing the government does is going to work any better. If there are significant ecnoomic advantages to abusing workers, employers will find a way to do it OSHA or no.
Keep in mind also that there's no free lunch. Justified or not, an employer counts OSHA compliance costs as part of the cost of hiring an employee. If those go up, he's going to offer correspondingly less when he hires new people, and the rest of the industry will do the same. So ultimately workers pay for it either way.
It's nice to imagine that employers will just swallow the higher costs and go their merry way, but as you said, some employers are bastards. And if they have to spend money to improve conditions, they're going to pass those costs on to their employees.
And because every other employer is being forced to do the same, the same will be true of them, meaning you're basically just forcing employees to pay for their own better conditions. But they could do that already. You're not really benefitting them.
There are no free lunches. In the long run, all costs to businesses get passed on to either consumers or workers. Companies' top priorities are to make a profit. I don't want to repeal OSHA because I believe employers will treat their employees right out of the goodness of their hearts. I want to eliminate OSHA because it doesn't improve things for workers even if employers are all evil bastards.
I really don't understand this at all. Your attitude is the reason that the average tech work place is SHITTY. Your company will buy you a beeper and cell phone to keep you on a leash 24/7 but they don't give a rat's ass about how keyboards and mice and screen glare will destroy your eyes and hands. Many of the great engineers I know have crippling RSI by the time they're in their late 20's. Your working these crazy hours without overtime pay because the government destroyed the FLSA laws *specifically for computer engineers* in the 90's.
Most engineers are either fresh off the boat and are at the company's (and countries) mercy, or had over-bearing mommies and have all these kinds of libertarian/anarchist ideas. These things do not work themselves out, government has a role to watch out that these companies don't grab you, burn you out for a few years and dispose of you. If the libertarian ideas I hear bear out, the 1% of the country with 50% of the wealth would shrink to 1% having 99+% of the wealth and everyone gets fucked. Privatizing roads? GIve me a break.
Anyone who is old enough to remember the days prior to OSHA will probably admit that it is better than not having OSHA, though. There was a day when a handful of deaths were expected in a lot of jobs. People who built some of our biggest dams swung from cranes a couple hundred feet over the earth without any tethers and operated dangerous machinery without any protection at all. What are a few lives compared to meeting a deadline?! A company can always hire more people -- but you can only meet a deadline once.
OSHA seems to help in some way to strike a balance wherein someone finally tells employers that they can't neglect their employes simply because addressing the problems directly gained from their daily job will cost a few bucks.
Don't misunderstand me though -- I'm not an OSHA fan, either. I'm just saying that some sort of regulation is obviously needed, because before OSHA, we didn't have ergo-anything and if you couldn't perform your job anymore because you were hurting from your job, you better hope you have a lot of sick-days saved, because as far as your boss was concerned, you were slacking off if you weren't punching the clock.
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seumas.com
As far as I know, it's actually real, I've seen a couple of colleagues being unable to lift their arms above their shoulders after a couple hours typing, and that condition lasted longer everytime, until it remained. If your girlfriend's boss ain't taking her seriously take her to a doctor, a real one and throw his statement at her boss. If that doesn't help you might wanna try throwing keyboards instead...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
And the Internet itself was originally built on a number of networks created and maintained by either the military, or publically funded academic & research organizations. Remember Compuserve? Remember the days of the pre-internet AOL? That's all the network that the private sector could create on its own. The public sector invested in the networks first, and after they did the hard work, private companies jumped in to fill the void in the commercial market.
Without public investment, we'd all have shitty e-mail addresses like 95820.4829@compuserve.com. If we had e-mail at all.
Do domain names matter?
I once saw a keyboard for sale at a local computer show that 'broke apart' and angled up to accomplish just that. It was a very cool device, and you could adjust the angle to suit your needs. Shame it was $130. But at one point in time *someone* thought it'd be a good idea to market. Digger
-- Don't you love a world where they give paranoid sociopaths guns, and tell them to shoot traitors and subversives?
Actually, the U.S.'s predominance in the computer field is in large part due to government assistance
Rediculous. Who did the government goto for those contracts: private companies! The US's dominane in the computer field is based on the fact that our enormous economy demanded a faster, better way to do things.
Someone you trust is one of us.
If you make a living at a computer, $130 is cheap for feeling healthy instead of achey, or worse, in severe pain like some people. Of course, the "natural" keyboards are "good enough" and prevent most of the pain from typing.
The reason typewriter typists didn't get CTS is because they had to have their wrists elevated (ie, not resting on the desk) in order to get the power to strike the keys hard enough to make a mark on the paper. Nowadays, almost no power is required to make our keys click. We can generate that amount of power with wrists resting on the desk, because it's easier on our arms. The constant pressure on the inside of the wrist is what collapses the carpal tunnel, compressing the nerve inside, and leading to pain.
I wonder how many people actually type now with their wrists elevated off of the desk. Any who do and still experience wrist pain, please let me know. Those who experience wrist pain and have their wrists resting on the desk, try elevating them. It's hard on the arms, but once those muscles build, you should be much better off.
As a side note, I type with my wrists down, but never for long stints. I do find that it is more comfortable to type with my elbows resting on the arms of my chair, keyboard at the edge of the desk, so that I can't rest my wrists on the desk.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Hey moderators, it's not flamebait, it's a joke! (You do have to think about it.)
Who needs OSHA? Shouldn't the full employment economy take care of these workplace issues. No one needs to work in a dangerous factory, when there are 50 other jobs available to that person. Look at developers! We pick our employers based on many factors. Imagine a startup having to comply with these rediculous ergonomic laws!
Someone you trust is one of us.
What I find interesting is that while everyone here on Slashdot hates Microsoft software, they all LOVE Microsoft hardware.
As a user of a Microsoft Natural Keyboard at work and home and a user of the "J-shape" MS Mouse at work and a Microsoft First Mouse Optical at home, they are excellent devices with very good feel to the devices.
The MS Natural keyboard does take a bit getting used to, but once you're used to this keyboard going back to a normal keyboard is very uncomfortable because a normal keyboard feels very "cramped" in comparison.
I remember some months ago someone posted an article on a great keyboard for Linux, but frankly, it still has the feel of a standard keyboard, which means the same old RSI problems that plague normal keyboards.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Probably. I've seen the same thing happen at a few different companies I've interviewed at. Replacing desks, chairs, buying those stupid little pads you put in front of keyboards to rest your wrists on.
I have to wonder, if complying with OSHA costs your business X dollars, can you claim that as a tax write-off? Because from what I've seen, the OSHA standards seem to hurt small businesses a lot more then it hurts the big boys...
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
RSI is real. I suffer from it, and it's not a lot of fun. For therapy I get deep tissue massage on my arms and massage therapy on my upper body, most of which I have to pay for myself. I wish that we had any ergonomic rules when I started ruining my body.
Possibly worse than the actual condition, however, is how RSI sufferers are treated. It seems to be a common practice to say that complainers are lazy and trying to get out of work, and are overweight and get no exercise, etc. etc. Anything to pass the blame.
In fact, RSI sufferers tend to be over achievers. They are the ones that will literally work their hands to the bone for their employers, until the pain is just too much.. or worse, the muscles just become completely useless.
A good book I recommend for your friend if she can get it is called "It's Not Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: A Computer Professionals Guide to RSI".
Good luck.
Agh, flashbacks! My dad worked at a beef processing plant (otherwise known as a slaughterhouse) for several years. RSI hell! People go home from those places unable to unclench their hand for hours or with cramps in the one arm thats just gone up and down for 4 hours straight. Assuming you manage not to miss the meat and crush your hand bones (my dad had a chain mail glove and a kevlar glove as souveniers of his time there) the nerve damage gets you eventually. I'm not even going to go into fun stuff like freezer work.
Another area this will help with is medical labs. Techs running the same tests over and over again.
Considering a friend of mine almost died from a cat bite partly because her employers didn't have a first aid kit on hand, I'm pretty pro-OSHA. /.ers tend to identify with the employers (but how will my stock options be effected) but these guidelines are going to help a lot of people.
Funny final note on meat plants. Sinclair wrote The Jungle orriginally to reveal the poor working conditions that meat packers worked under. His goal was to improve the life of laborers. But the public response was focused on what the book said about the quality of their food and reform of working conditions didn't come until years later. OSHA is neccassary because the average person isn't going to worry about what another human being had to go through to bring them a product. They only care about the intersection of price and quality.
Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
But OSHA does improve conditions for workers. And yes, some of the costs will be passed along to the workers/consumers. However, the employer can only pass on so much to the worker - pay cuts only go so far before you hit minimum wage. And in most cases they can't make the employees pay directly out of pocket. (I know that in some cases they can, but in those situations the employee can then turn around and write it off at tax time) Most employers accept the fact that paying more per worker for health and safety means less in workers comp and lawsuits filed by injured workers. Unemployment might rise in areas high in worker-unfriendly industry, though, as those companies cut back on jobs due to increased cost per employee. But if the widget industry is worker-unfriendly, they'll find that they have to improve working conditions if they want to keep widget production at the same level. And most of this stuff is cheap and easy - look at the OSHA regs, it's pretty tame. The fact remains that if the company is required to provide minimum health and safety standards, the quality of life increases for those workers (look at coal mines circa 1800 next to coal mines now, in any terms). You are right, if the employer thinks that there is an economic advantage to screwing the worker, they will try it. But look at what the penalties can be. With most health and safety regulations, the penalties are high enough that the risk and penalty of getting caught in the act make compliance more attractive than screwing the workers. Fire codes, for example. Most businesses have the fire exits marked, unblocked, etc, and it's not because they all are concerned about fire safety. Health and safety regs really do make a difference - after an OSHA inspection, my own employer was really quick about cleaning up some of the serious health hazards they were exposing employees to (unlit exterior stairs, unmarked asbestos, exposed wiring in steam tunnels and wiring closets, etc). OSHA really does help.
itachi
Though not as much as the BeeGee's...
OSHA: Open Source Head Atrophy
The End.
Hi! This is the Sig, blatantly attached to the end of this comment.
At the dawn of the industrial revolution, some factories in England were working children 16 hours a day, 6 days a week. Somehow I don't think a "please stop" ended this practice.
But neither was government regulation the primary cause. Even if child labor laws were repealed today, few if any children would be required to work significant hours. The reason is twofold. First, most families are much better off than they were back then. In many cases the alternative was work 16 hour days or starve. That's no longer true.
Secondy, children just don't make very good workers. When the jobs available were simple assembly-line piecework, children could be made useful. Today most of those jobs are performed by machines.
So perhaps child labor laws caused children to stop working sooner than they otherwise would have, but government intervention is not required to prevent employer abuse of employees. Ultimately, there's one reason and only one reason employers treat their employees well-- because they know they'll leave if they don't.
OSHA's regulations will do little more than politicize the employer-employee relationship. If an employee really cares about ergonomics he can buy ergonomically correct equipment himself or agree to take lower pay in exchange for better conditions. If an employee really doesn't care about it, he's not going to use it even if employers do pay for it. Ultimately, it should be up to the employee to decide if ergonomic measures are worth the cost.
If I want to choose to destroy my body, that's my right. It's not like I don't have a choice of jobs, and the same is true of most people who sit in front of computers for a living. Most of them are not menial laborers, and they can find better conditions if they want to. It's absurd to pretend that employees are helpless victims being forced into jobs that give them debilitating injuries. You choose your job, and if you don't like one, you're free to take another.
On the other hand, OSHA's regulations offer infinite potential for mischief. One disgruntled employee could, for example, fake a RSI and force a whole office to undergo OSHA-mandated redisigns of their workplaces. Or over-zealous bureaucrats can force workers to adopt dubious safety measures even the employees themselves want. This is the government we're talking about, and governments are crawling with lawyers. The moment you give them the power to dictate working conditions, they will use that power in unexpected and harmful ways.
The above combined with the compliance costs of these regulations make them clearly not worth adopting. I for one am hoping that President Bush cancels them on taking office.
Hey -- I know it's bloody hard to stop working and say "I can't do this -- my wrists hurt too much" but STOP and rest until you don't hurt AT ALL. You could cause yourself permanant injury, and avoiding that is worth a little embarrassment. Don't wait until you can't type.
I waited until I was in so much pain all day I was almost in tears, and then insisted to my boss that I get the mouse (actually, trackball in my case -- I can type for hours with no problem, but using a conventional mouse puts me in agony) I wanted. Yesterday, when I turned in my receipt for reimbursement he got all snotty about "pretty snazzy mouse". Asshole.
But I'd rather deal with his being a jerk than be in pain all the time.
DON'T RISK YOUR HEALTH.
A bit off topic, but hell... That's how government regualtion ends up working, good causes get screwed on occasion. A few years ago, my father worked at a foundry in Northwest PA. As a shell casting foundry, they went through thousands of tons of sand every month making their castings. In order to have the sand hauled away and reinjected with the proper chemicals, the sand had to be thoroughly sterilized in an enormous furnace (it was literally 100% pure when finished), and a hauling service had to be hired to transport it. At the time, Erie, PA was rapidly losing shoreline (and maybe still is). So the company came up with what seemed like a great move: they's give the sand to the city of Erie if the city would haul it away. Great for the beaches, great PR (and fewer expenses) for the company, a win-win situation. Until the EPA stepped in. Sand, you see, is a carcinogen, a hazardous material. Despite the fact that people roll around in it on the weekends, only hazardous material specialists can handle it once its off the beach. Doesn't matter that this sand is as pure as it gets, its still a carcinogen (and a pure one at that). [Sigh], that's when I started to hate government...
For the most part, I agree. Government regulation, in my mind, is characterized by bureacratic ineptitude, and is typically intrusive, unnecessary and burdensome.
However, let's put generalities by the wayside and discuss the case at hand based on it's inherent (de)merits. We're not talking about the latest incarnation of the Clipper Chip.
According to the aforementioned article:
Business groups, who have said the rule is based on unsound science, plan to mount a legal challenge.
Sound vs. "unsound" science. Sound familiar? This is a specious hallmark of corporate-funded public relations. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, oil companies, auto manufacturers and other mass polluters denied the existence of global climate change, which was scapegoated as "unsound" science.
Perhaps the business groups have a point that ergonomic reforms may come at a prohibitive cost (then again, business coalitions mumble the same disingenuous mantra when calls go up for any type of change from the status quo -- environmental, social et al).
I'm really interested in seeing exactly how requiring manual laborers to use lumbar-support belts constitutes unsound science.
Sincerely,
Vergil
Insects and Grafitti Photos
I don't see a noun form of affect in my Webster's. (Specifically, "Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary, Revised Edition.") Granted, it's not quite as comprehensive as, say, the Oxford English Dictionary, but it does do a pretty good job of covering the portion of the language people actually still use. ;-)
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
Program Intellivision!
"I'm really interested in seeing exactly how requiring manual laborers to use lumbar-support belts constitutes unsound science."
Are you now? As it happens, there is no conclusive evidence that demonstrates the efficacy of lumbar supports. There is in fact no generaly agreed upon model that explains the mechanism of back injury, never mind carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, frozen shoulders, and a host of other musculoskeletal ailments.
Furthermore, there is evidence to suggest that prolonged use of support belts allows the abdominal and other postural muscles to weaken, which them increases the likelyhood of an injury when the worker is NOT wearing the belt. At home, when he is not covered by workmen's comp for example.
The OSHA regulations are a bunch of politically chosen hogwash based on largely disproved theory from the 1950's.
How do I know? I'm a physical therapist. I get paid to know. I also know that if you put 10 therapists in a room with a back injury patient, you will get at least 5 different treatment plans, based on 5 different theories of back injury. The patients usually get better faster than if we left them alone, but not because we understand the spine.
Basically what you have here is a mandate from the federal government for YOU and your company to pay ME $80 to $150 PER HOUR to ensure that your workplace is in compliance with regulations. It will have NO EFFECT on the rates of workplace injury.
PTs, OTs and funiture manufacturers are going to make a shit load of money. Then spend it on inflation and taxes to pay for all the new government office furniture.
The Phantom Therapist
Brought to you by the Invincible Chordate Pikaia Commemorative Society.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
I still think there's a basic contradiction here, though. If you're right that:
Unemployment might rise in areas high in worker-unfriendly industry, though, as those companies cut back on jobs due to increased cost per employee. But if the widget industry is worker-unfriendly, they'll find that they have to improve working conditions if they want to keep widget production at the same level.
and look at the OSHA regs, it's pretty tame.
Then why is OSHA needed at all? Won't a bit of employee pressure accomplish the same things that OSHA does without all the paperwork and lawyering?
Secondly, you have to take into account not just the people who get better conditions but also the people who lose their jobs outright. You said:
pay cuts only go so far before you hit minimum wage.
What happens when they hit minimum wage? Do you think they just shrug and pay extra? Not a chance. If the marginal productivity of an employers workforce falls below minimum wage, he'll stop hiring workers. You might not see it immediately, because he has to keep his factory going, but in the long run driving the marginal value of workers' labor below the minimum wage will increase unemployment.
The bottom line is that some employers are going to be evil OSHA regs or not. And the evil ones are going to be the ones who will work the hardest to get around OSHA regs for the majority of employers that aren't evil, OSHA is more of a headache than anything else. They'd probably adopt many safety measures voluntarily if asked, and filling out OSHA forms to prove that they've complied is a general waste of everyone's time.
You can't have it both ways. If OSHA regs are cheap and painless, most employers will adopt them voluntarily. If they are difficult and expensive, then it might not be in the best interests of workers to force employers to implement them.
One final point. Comparing coal mines in 1800 to anything today is a straw man. A hell of a lot of things have changed between then and now. Today you couldn't get workers to work in those conditions even if they were legal. This has nothing whatsoever to do with government regs. It's just a result of progress. When you can work for $7/hour at McDonald's why risk your life in the mines? Conditions in mines (And everywhere else) were improving long before OSHA came on the scene.
PROOF???? You sound like the insurance company I have to deal with...
I've had a combination of tendinitis and carpal tunnel for over a year and a half now.... And I can tell you that it IS real, it IS serious, and it will fsck up your life if you don't realize it in time.
reverend lola
the titanium sheep
provider of steel wool
Filtering internet porn would eliminate most of the RSI injuries in OUR office.
OSHA has no right to regulate whether I want to get RSI or not. Unfortunately, they treat individuals as official representatives of their company, thus regulating them. This is dead wrong.
From the kind of code some programmers write, they deserve to have their wrists hurt. One guy I know has been out of work for three years because of RSI, and if you'd ever seen his code, you'd be thankful.
--
Perhaps this is why my moms (rather large) company is replacing chairs. She said some of them were practically brand new, but were selling them to employees for $5 ea. I wonder if they were trying to comply with OSHA.... The money they made was being donated to local charities.
I was hoping, when I was reading that submission, that Desdinova77 was having trouble getting to the site due to wrist problems. Imagine my chagrin!
I dont know how many of you out there have worked in an office scenario, ie 8 hours in front of a computer. At home or school It was more like lots of 20min-2hour bursts. But there is no f'n way I can keep correct ergonomic position up for that long, and to top it off I dont care how ergonomically correct you are, typing on a regular keyboard is going to mess up your hands, people just werent meant to have their hands facing downward for that long during the day.
I think they need to keep coming out with completely new ergonomic devices like that keyboard where its split and the left side stands straight up and the right side stands sraight up and you type with your palms facing each other.
The only time I ever had wrist problems from computer use was just after an "ergonomics expert" "corrected" my workstation setup. I put it back the way it had been previously, and the pain went away. So I think I'll just leave it the way it is, whether OSHA likes it or not.
In talking about *nix Neal Stephenson wrote "this is a system invented by people to whom repetitive stress disorder is what black lung is to miners." So yes I think it will make some changes and I think this is something we should care about. But they have to be sure to ask us what works and what does not as long as we the "miners" have some input this could be a good thing
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
How wonderful, more government intervention.
Listen, there is a reason that the United States, with less government internvention, is a computing powerhouse while countries with stricter government rules (I'm talking Sweden and France and probably other European countries) are lagging in productivity parametrics with respect to the IT industry. United States IT companies are used to working with fewer government constraints, they can respond quicker to industry pressures and are more nimble, thus more successful and productive.
I don't have too much of an issue with OSHA offering guidelines, so that the smarter IT people can by ergonomic equipmenton thier own (I know I will, since my typing skills are my livelihood), but we shouldn't handicap busineeses that can't afford this.
If we do, we may slide down that same slippery slope to Socialism that Europe has descended, and some other country will eat out cheese. Believe me,the coders in India are very smart and very hungry,and would love to be the top IT hot dog on the bock.
Most of the people I know sit in whatever two dollar chair they're given at a desk that was never adjusted specifically for them and type on your standard straight-edge qwerty keyboard with standard everything. In other words, they go home aching.
I mean, to a lot of us it is hard to admit that our wrists are hurting. Most of us type in one way or another for a living -- it isn't like we're digging ditches stocking shelves. So we often keep quiet. I usually do, but it sucks when you can't sleep because your wrists are throbbing and you can't grip a coffee mug until you've relaxed for a day or so.
I wonder how this effects users who tellecommute. How can my employer dictate or be held responsible for my work environment at home? Granted, my eight foot banquet table and cheap OfficeMax chair might not be the best health-wise, but I'm not about to go out and spend hundreds of dollars to egonomize my home office.
Besides, a lot of us are overweight, get no excersize, have failing eyesight and live on pizza and soda. How are we going to get an employer to take us seriously when we then complain because our poor little wrists are achey-wakey?
I'm sure I'll regret the attitude of "I'm embarassed to make noise about it to my employer" that I have -- probably someday when I have arthritis and can't grip a pencil or a cup... but oh well.
---
seumas.com
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
The 'pilot program' for OSHA's ergonomic program. It's one of the reasons I am no longer a safety and health official. The original 'guidelines' were so onerous and overbearing that the cost to comply would bankrupt any company smaller than IBM. The rules were simply not based on any reality *I* know of. Many 'experts' in the ergonomic field were consulted, but apparently that was just for show. If you knew just who made the OSHA regulations and how they were made, you'd move to another country (as I did) the people in charge have *no clue* as to how things work in the real world (kind of like Congress come to think of it.) I hope for the sake of the firms that try to comply, that the rules have been fixed.... Digger
-- Don't you love a world where they give paranoid sociopaths guns, and tell them to shoot traitors and subversives?
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
The proposed OSHA standard has already greatly affected the place where I work. In the past year:
All employees have been required to attend an ergonomics course.
All offices have been evaluated and personalized according to ergonomic guidelines.
All employees are required to complete an online ergonomic self-evaluation every year.
I was very resistant to these changes when they were first introduced. Who the hell are they to tell me how I have to lay out my office?
I now have a $600 ergo chair, $500 negative tilt keyboard and mouse tray, and all my worksurfaces (that's what us cube dwellers call a desk) have been adjusted to my leg and arm lengths.
How can my company afford all of this? It must cost millions! The answer is: they can't afford to not do it. Most folks here earn about $100K per year, and if only one develops a career threatening case of RSI, the lawsuit to cover lost future income will dwarf the amount spent on all the ergo stuff.
It is a simple matter of accounting. In this case, money spent on ergo is considered an insurance policy against any future RSI lawsuit.
-Sommelier
BTW, after all my complaining a year ago, it turns out I love my new ergo office. I can work for hours in relative comfort. I can't remember ever being this pain free at work.
Why is that so interesting? The company makes good hardware and shitty software. It's like the coffee shop down the street from my office- it makes good coffee but bad espresso, so I buy coffee there and get my espresso elsewhere. I'll recommend Microsoft's hardware, but I get my software elsewhere.
As an aside- the Microsoft keyboard is nice and all, but it's nothing compared to my Interfaces by Cramer keyboard. Treat yourself to a real keyboard and resist the urge to give even more money to Microsoft!
I work for this company which pretty much exists based on the passing of this legislation. We are hoping it will make the ergonomics industry more visible to the public. Its amazing how many people equate ergonomics with "Reaganomics" instead of repetitive stress injuries.
There is definitely a noun "affect"... it refers to the conciously perceived congnitive aspects of an emotional response. Granted it doesn't make any sense in the original sentence, but it's not a grammatical error.
Now, back to reality Uncle Sam. The majority of people are much smarter than your minions give credit for. Publishing guidelines could be viewed as acceptable use of our tax money. Enforcement through OSHA is not acceptable. If for no other reason than the Constitution does not give OSHA the right to make laws.
All you need for ergonomics is an MS Natural Keyboard and a decent mouse (their soap-shaped wheel mouse would suffice. I tried an MS Natural the month it came out and haven't gone back to a rectangular keyboard since.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
So before all the anti-regulation complaints start, please stop and think about it from the point of view of someone who's working one of those jobs. Not only are you doing a menial task for low money and little chance for advancement (much less human engagement), without OSHA you'd face the possibility of losing the use of your hands sometime in the next few years. You'd probably be grateful for the government intervention, too.
Do domain names matter?
These new standards effect industrial workplaces more than your little cubicles and your little chairs and your little keyboards and your little wrist rests.
For those of you willing to take off your slashdot blinders for a second, consider the repetitive strain injuries of assembly line workers, the workers in meat processing plants, sweatshops, and packaging operations where people repeat the same motions over and over and over again, reaching twisting bending, etc...
your little cubicle farm will not notice much of a difference. hey you! sit up straight!
I work for a company that manufactures automatic packaging equipment, and I for one think this standard is long overdue. There are HUGE business opportunities for creating ergonomic products that help make workplaces safer.
-freq
"Tension is the great integrity" -- R. Buckminster Fuller
OSHA does have a standard on home-offices: http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshDoc/Directive_data/CPL_ 2-0_125.html
I don't have a link right now, but I have seen more than one study that shows, economically, it is better for a (large, at least) company to invest in ergonomics than to deal with RSI-laden workers.
Ergonomics don't have to be expensive, either. I personally need a low table, an adjustable chair, and a microsoft elite keyboard. Total cost: same as any other workstation.
It's things like OSHA that make me glad we have such a great government, despite what Bush may say about it.
ObGrammar: It might affect my office, and it may have an effect on my workplace, but I have no idea what an affect is or means.
--Joe (Feeling a little edgy today.)--
Program Intellivision!
Program Intellivision!
my folding table w/$5 generic keyboard with a $15 folding chair w/a PADDED seat... This is an upgrade from the $5 folding chair that I had when I last posted about something like this that had only some sort of hard webbing as support... It broke for some reason...
I wonder why I don't suffer from too much pain? Hmm.
When I do that, I cannot reach the keyboard. Those who are more than one standard deviation from normal size still need to cope with normal equipment. Many of us already have viable workarounds that are not mentioned in the rules. Someone could get bureaucratic and decide that I have to give up my child-sized keyboard, footrest, and teeny mouse.
Asking my employer to get a special $1200 adjustable desk strikes me as an undue burden when I can spend $25 for a reasonable footrest.
I telecommute for part of my workweek. I am most concerned about the regulations regarding contractors and work-at-home employeees. One of our boxen has a good chair (adjustable, back support, etc.) but the other does not. Does this mean my employer has an obligation to make sure my home equipment is up to snuff?
This could have a chilling effect on telecommuting, and work by indys working from home offices.
The most important thing to recognize about ergonomics is that one-size-fits-all will actively harm many. Adjustability and flexibility need to be watchwords, but are difficult to implement when employee tenure is > 1.5 yrs.
I got CTS when I was 16 and working at a design company. This was back in 1994 at epic software, which is probably still hiring... exploiting... high school kids to this day..
Shell Oil screamed at my boss because he screwed up an order; the boss screamed at me to type four pages of detailed technical information as fast as possible for Shell. Before that day, I had never even heard of CTS. After that day, I went home hurting.. and the soreness and eventual numbness never went away (and remains to this day).
My mistake was that I was a kid and didn't know better. I did as I was told and didn't think about it. Ergonomics were terrible in those days (this was circa 1994 - 1995); OSHA is trying to get people up to date.
Most of the new furniture available to businesses is compliant with standards to prevent RSI.
It's just when employers have old-ass equipment and furniture that they have used and used and used that really presents a problem. Computer desks from 10 years ago are not the same as those today.
In my case, my employer had me working and typing on a long "bingo" table and a folding chair.
Most employers will listen to requests for ergo stuff now, but, back when I got CTS, my employer said, "We'll just have to take you out back and shoot you" (referring to how horses with broken legs are often dealt with)
SOHO standards are coming about because people are employing others to do work in their home office and making them sit on consumer furniture that is not meant to be worked on. Can you imagine doing a consulting job where you spent 8 - 12 hours coding on someone's small kitchen stool, keyboard in lap? It has happened.
Before you diss OSHA, don't forget that there are plenty of stupid people out there that aren't as wise to ergonomics as you are. It is these people that they want to crack down on because their employees are getting injured.
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This measure has been pushed through by the Clinton whitehouse before he leaves office. I have to wonder if the real point is to bring the Nader democrats back into the fold. This smells of political footwork to me, and that is dangerous. This makes me worry because often these sorts of measure are not thought out for side effects before they are implimented.
My other worry is how much this is going to cost me. Companies do not pay for this stuff we do. They are going to pass the costs onto us. I have heard estimates that this is going to cost companies in the US 90 BILLION Dollars a year when implimented.
When your goverment does somethnig to help you, run screaming , they have a bad habit of saying that the operation was a success but the patient died on the table.....
Papa Legba
Papa Legba come and open the gate