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GNU Hardware Cooperative
dfelznic writes "With the support of several leaders in the free software community, Spindletop is in the process of becoming the first (and only) GNU Cooperative, supporting the hardware needs of end-users of free software such as GNU/Linux. Spindletop is based in the birthplace of free software, Cambridge, MA." Allright, I'm a skeptic, but it if it works, it sure would be great.
I've seen a few people complain that they can't view the article because of the slashdot effect.
:-)
We have a copy of the article posted by Lucas on Kuro5hin, complete with everything you need
Happy to help. Have a nice day.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
"plus anything that allows the kernel to work" means just that, anything that allows the kernel to work. /etc/inittab (or similar init scheme) is needed. ls is not. ld is.
:-) For my current system, the GNU software that is required for the OS consists of glibc (although I could recompile the kernel to use a non-GNU libc) and ld (not sure if this is GNU). Also required, but not GNU software is lilo.
But inittab is not GNU
To me, an operating system at least has to be something that can do *something* without the aid of additional software.
This is Microsoft think. Get Windows out of your head, and look up operating system in the dictionary. Operating systems do not include the applications that run on them. Even shells do not count as part of the operating system, otherwise Linux with bash would be a *different* operating system then Linux with tcsh, which would be different than Linux with ksh, etc.
There's an old saying that Unix is not an operating system. What GNU refers to as "operating system" is actually an operating environment, a completely different beast. You don't name an operating system after the software that runs under it.
If all Patrick Volkerding (as an example) did when creating Slackware was to take an Official GNU System CD, remove HURD and replace it with the Linux kernel, then the name "GNU/Linux" would be very appropriate. But what happened wasn't even close.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
This is a necessary step to make sure that large corporations won't be able to arbitrarily control our access to the media of our choice. Many companies are already making noises about migrating content control to complete hardware solutions, trying to make it as difficult as possible for those nasty "pirates" to get their grubby little mitts on the data streams.
All it takes is one reliable source for hardware which DOESN'T cooperate with them, and the entire scheme will fall apart. And the tighter they try and control everything, the alternative automatically sells better, since given a choice, consumers will pick the product which gives them more control. (This is assuming that the product is competitive in features & price, of course.)
Worst case, an organization like this can provide chips and/or boards and instructions which can be used to replace and/or hijack the electronics in the "content controlled" machines (just in case they try and do something like use non-standard laser-reading hardware, or any similar hard-to-duplicate approaches).
And if the companies try and get legislation passed to prevent this kind of hacking, then the organization can devolve their hardware spec. to something general & programmable, and leave it up to the net to squirrel away the downloadable code necessary to run the machines.
Of course, it's in the best interests of companies who want to control such things that a strong organization capable of creating such hardware be discouraged.
Nothing you mentioned has anything to do, specifically, with the area. If I went to any other major city in the US, I could say the same thing about their sports teams. Or their highway infrastructure. Or their museums. Or their malls. What do you have against Boston?
And, in fact, the only thing about the Boston-area that has anything to do with the Free Software Foundation, is one of the things you neglected to mention: MIT. Stallman was at MIT when he started the foundation. If Stallman had been at Oberlin, he would've started the foundation in Ohio, but he wasn't -- it's got nothing to do with MA, for better or for worse.
What about the BSDs, Apple's Darwin, and a dozen or so other OS's depending on the usage of "free"?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Read through the list of their software. See Linux? No? Check the list of other software covered by the GPL. Linux is there. Linux is not GNU, dammit! >:( If I compile and use GNU utils on Cygwin, does that give me GNU/Windows? Of course not. GNU/Solaris anyone? Linux could not be the phenomenon it is today without GNU...but Linux is not GNU.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
I cant get to the article right now (/. effect again) but it seems that people are pissed about the whole GNU/HURD/Linux she-bang. And from what I can gather, it seems that Stallman is having the same sort of problem that organizations like PETA, The Sierra Club, etc. seem to have.
They take what would normally be a good idea, then get so worked up about it, that they alienate everyone who might have liked their idea into hating them. Cruelty to animals is wrong, however, when PETA says that animal shouldnt even be owned, leashed, or put in a zoo. When the Sierra Club tries to protect the wilderness, I'm all for that, I love to hike, bike and be outdoors. However, the wilderness is not just for the Sierra Club and its members/affiliates.
Free software is a beautiful thing, it enables software to be built not to corporate standards of obscurity, but through public standards of 'everyone checks the code, and it doesnt go out till its READY'
Just because Stallman wants GNU to be a pure/virginal thing for him to put his name on, doesnt necessarily mean that that's what WE want.
This sort of infighting that I see over stupid stuff like a NAME should stop, or it will destroy this cool thing called 'Open-Source' (I paid a royalty to JonKatz to use the term).
It took M$ almost 20 years of gluing stuff to DOS to get to the semi-stable Windows2000. Last I had heard, Linux as a whole has been stable since about '93 or so. That means that it only took 2 years to get Linux to hold up like the big corporate stuff. Now, imagine what would happen if everyone stopped bitching and started writing cool software WITH each other? There are easily a hundred times more Free software programmers than there are windows programmers, yet the industry still doesnt take our kind seriously, and this is the reason why.
Let's start working toward that common goal that hear so much about.
"See, we plan ahead! That way, we never have to do anything now."
the CambridgeSide Galleria (an upscale mall with very expensive stores and even more expensive parking)
Uh, I've been to CambridgeSide, and the stores there aren't that expensive. (They've got Best Buy, fer crying out loud). You want expensive, go across the Charles into Boston, and visit the Prudential Center. THAT is expensive.
The parking ain't that bad, either. I think it was ~= $5 or so for two or three hours. And this is in a fairly well-kept garage, just a short way from the mall proper.
iSKUNK!
This is not any political or hippy thing. I've just found that I get the best service from a business where I am part owner, part worker, part consumer. Likewise, I get my best investment from boxen about which I have knowledge.
If this works, I hope there is an option for national membership. I would be willing to pay a slightly higher fee as a non-working member, or would be willing to do writing, etc. to help it fly.
If you have not tried coops, give 'em a shot. It's amazing what happens when you participate in a business. Likewise, it's depressing to go to the monthly/annual meetings and find people who are driven by their egos, rather than the vision, or the day-to-day concerns. But somehow, coops still get the job done, and often at a better price and with better service than non-coops engaged in the same business.
b.) Non-dirty. As an example, this means using more expensive, better- built, "clean" motherboards without built-in sound and video.
What's wrong with having built-in sound and video on the motherboard? It makes slots available, reduces power consumption, and reduces the overall size of the computer. A lot of people would be more than happy with standard video/audio offerings, but this article makes it sound as if those people are losers.
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And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
GNU/Linux is GNU.
Not true. GNU is the name of an operating system. What is sometimes called "GNU/Linux" is NOT that operating system. So what is the operating system? It's the linux kernel plus anything that allows that kernel to work. Nothing more. Compilers, editors, and other utilities, no matter how basic, are not part of the operating system. Every GNU program commonly distributed with Linux can be replaced with a non-GNU alternative.
The Linux distributions are NOT an operating system (otherwise there would be 20 different operating systems). Instead, they are a collection of software that includes Linux the OS, Linux the infrastructure as created by Linus and friends, BSD daemons, GNU userland utilities, and a whole bunch of stuff selected by the distributor. The distributors put all this stuff together, so they get to name it.
If you say "GNU/Linux" and mean "Linux operating system + GNU low-level user environment" you may be right. But if you mean "GNU OS with just a kernel swapped out" you will be wrong.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
We are now pleased to announce the GNU Food Commune. It came to our attention that hackers don't only need software and hardware, but food as well.
Soon to come, the distributed effort of the GNU Housing Projects, so that all hackers have high-quality places to keep their computers without being subject to undue pressure to create evil non-GNU software to pay their bills.
However, individual generosity is failing to pay for these expanded benefits. To these ends, we are forming the GNS Party (GNS is Not Socialism) and the backup GNR movement (GNR is Not a Rebellion) which will resort to GNV methods (GNV is Non-Violent). Resistance is GNUtile. Support our Brave GNU/World!
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Every GNU program commonly distributed with Linux can be replaced with a non-GNU alternative.
I'm not aware of the existence of a non-GNU Free Software replacement for the GNU C Compiler (gcc). In fact, even a proprietary replacement (which would be clearly unacceptable) wouldn't work, since the Linux kernel only will compile under the GNU C Compiler. Replacing it is impossible without also rewriting the kernel, so I'd consider it a pretty vital part of the system.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
FWIW calling it "GNU/Hurd" is redundant, since Hurd is the kernel of the GNU OS, just like calling Windows "Windows/Win32" would be redundant. Now if you replace the official kernel with another one, then you call it "GNU/Linux" to indicate that it's the GNU OS, but with modifications.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
But gcc is not a part of the operating system. Even RMS has said so. All he has said was (paraphrase) GNU needs a free compiler so we will write one. It is certainly a wonderful component, and in the case of unices, almost mandatory, but the presence of GNU gcc does not make a system GNU. Otherwise we would have to call a certain system by the name of "GNU/OpenBSD", and Theo would have a cow.
And to clarify my previous statement, even though gcc may be required to compile the Linux kernel, it is not required for the normal operation of the system. There are other free C compilers. They do not have the functionality of gcc, but they do exist, so even gcc can be replaced.
None of us who object to the term "GNU/Linux" are disputing in any way the contributions that the GNU Project has made to the typical Linux and BSD distribution. We just feel that those who build the finished product get to name it, not those who built the majority of components.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
The URL is missing the "o", but it still works. Then again, Spindle Toilet Paper would be good.
I was wondering what happened when the router lit up like a Christmas tree!
The full article is here.
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There already was a Free Hardware Foundation, co-founded by my friend Jonathan Levine (it's even at http://www.fhf.org)... I guess because they're Candadians - or maybe it's because they're related to NetBSD instead of Linux or the Cambridge GNU crew in Cambridge - they don't count...
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
Is it just me, or should they be supporting GNU/Hurd instead of GNU/Linux, given that Stallman won't accept Linux as the GNU OS?
I might even consider building a UFO from parts I can scrounge up from there.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
THis idea was tossed around on Advogato.org. Should be interesting to see. (On a side note, wouldn't it be cool if all these free software sites had soemthing like the microsoft wallet?)
Their main focus will be in maintaining info on parts that can be used with Free OSes, but they will also be building boxen, and selling individual parts.
The idea is to buy everything wholesale, and sell it just above cost. Something around 10% I think, but don't quote me. The money made from sales will be used to support the Cooperative, and I think, in the event of excess money, the rest will be donated.
Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those that do know me, DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me.
The kernel does not use libc. That's insane.
My error. I apologize. I also did some checking on ld, and it turns out that it is not GNU software (at least the one in Slack 7.1). So I guess that there are no GNU packages required for an operational Linux OS. Of course, as others have pointed out, gcc is still currently needed to build the kernel.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
If you wish to refer to a kernel as an OS, then that's up to you. But to refer to it as ``operational'' is insane. You can't do *anything* with a kernel+ld+inittab - if you have just those things, then your computer will freeze during the boot sequence. Yes, technically there is something loaded into memory, but you can't do *anything* - not even type your name. What you're saying is rather like claiming that IO.SYS is an operating system - without something like COMMAND.COM, your computer would just freeze during boot-up.
Calling something that would freeze during booting an ``operational Linux OS'' is misleading. Yes, theoretically you could port enough bits from BSD to get Linux to work without GNU, though AFAIK nobody has done this, ever. But don't try to claim that Linux can be in any way ``operational'' without *something* sitting on top.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
So let's add ext2fs and tcsh and any other non-GNU program necessary to get to a command prompt.
But you're completely missing the point. The operating system I have on my box is not The GNU System. At the time a workable Linux kernel was released, the distribution creators did not say "hey, here's a kernel that works better with The GNU System than the current one", because there was no GNU kernel. The certainly did not excise a BSD or Solaris kernel from their complete-but-for-kernel GNU Systems and pop in Linux. That's absurd. But that is the argument that RMS makes, that a Linux distribution is merely The GNU System with the kernel swapped out.
To quote Linus Torvalds, "Your midwife doesn't select the name of your babies.."
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
If you actually READ the article, they're just trying to build a body of knowledge relating to hardware. Theoretically, if one piece of hardware works with one version of *NIX, it should work with another. In reality this is simply not true, as anyone who spends time at Linux Users Groups can tell you. If there is a collective out there gathering this data, it would help the people like myself who just spent a long time building a linux-friendly box expedite their long construction time.
If it doesn't work 100% with free software, it shouldn't be included.
That's a noble but very difficult task.
What do they mean with software? I guess they just mean LINUX right now.Even if you just use Linux as a plattform there arew still some problems. For example just look at graphic cards.
If they say 100% working, does that also mean all features of the card are working? 3D Acceleration?
If you want that feature you already have quite a limited list of choices(even more limited if you think about Non-free drivers/NVIDIA anybody?)
If the really just use Linux(maybe *BSD) what distinguishes them from other linux hardware shops like VA or also the big makers who are already established(and probably willing to support linux big time)?
In theory the idea of some kind of p2p company is intruiging but I think I would be quite a task to bring so many different opinions under one hat.
I see the danger of big time hardware related Flamewars.
Still I would be a great thing if the Hardware cooperative succeded and even eventually provides a way of funding things like GNU or the Fsf.
Still I want trade better hardware for ideology(or maybe just to a certain extend)
"Mommy, mommy! The garbage man is here!" "Well, tell him we don't want any!" -- Groucho Marx
FPGAs are good for many things, but they are slow, inefficient and expensive when compared to a custom logic design.
Actually 15 or so years ago I stopped by his office around 3am, had an excellent cup of tea and an interesting conversation.
As to your homophobia - grow up. Besides, last I heard he was hetero.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
The domain doesn't have an o, but the URL is correct.
In other words, http://spindletop.com is a different site. . .