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Theory Tells How Egyptians Aligned Pyramids To True North

Posted by michael on from the measure-twice-cut-once dept.

blackage sends us news about how the Egyptians may have aligned their pyramids. The craziest part seems to be that their accuracy was good enough in aligning with these stars that the pyramids can be dated to within five years! Nature has a nice description of the theory.

20 of 258 comments (clear)

  1. About the sphinx by Dervak · · Score: 5

    2.The big sphinx is WAY older than we thought. some geologist proved this.

    While this isnt accepted in the main stream (yet) I find the evidence for this compelling. The facts go roughly like this:

    • The sphinx is not built, but carved from a large rock jutting up from the desert. It is made of sandstone.
    • Orthodoxy says that its head is the likeness of Pharaoh Chefren (who claims this), but it is not very similar to other portrayals of him.
    • The lion body is very badly eroded indeed, but the head no nearly as much, contrary to what one might expect. Also, the head is far too small compared to the body - the proportions are way wrong.
    • In the desert, the primary erosion agent is wind (sandblasting), which carves out horizontal grooves. The sphinx body is covered with very deep and extensive vertical grooves. Vertical grooves are formed by intense rains.
    • The last time Egypt had intense rains was at the end of the last Ice Age, some 10 000 years ago.

    So, the alternative model goes something like this:

    • Some time around the end of the last Ice Age, members of some forgotten people carve out a giant statue (of a lion?) from the great rock, for whatever purpose.
    • This statue is eroded badly in torrential rains (during hundreds or thousands of years) around the end of the last Ice Age.
    • The climate turns arid, the rains stop and vegetation disappears. Loose sand begin to collect in dunes. The statue is partly buried in sand, with the head jutting up.
    • Throughout the millenia, the head is eroded even more by wind sandblasting, until it is unrecognizable. Around the time of the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the statue is uncovered from the sand.
    • Pharaoh Khefren (or some other, earlier pharaoh) takes a liking to it and decides to recast its unrecognizable head into his own likeness and take credit for the hole shebang.

    Now, the pyramids may or may not be older than the currently accepted value, but the sphinx certainly is. I wouldnt be surprised if the pyramids are far older too.

    The fact that Cheops, Chefren and Menkaure takes credit for them means nothing. Remember that it was not uncommon for a king to expropriate something someone else did as his. Also, it makes no sense that the biggest pyramid is claimed to be the oldest. If you were Pharaoh, wouldnt you want to build a bigger pyramid than your dad did? OTOH, if they merely claimed already existing structures, it makes perfect sense. First dibs...

    /Dervak

  2. Aligning with north is easy! by KjetilK · · Score: 5
    Let me first said that the Great Pyramids of Giza is the most impressive work I have ever seen (yes, I have been there). It's just incredible, and the feeling of standing at the foot, or being inside them is hard to describe. So is, BTW, the feeling you get in many of the newer temples in Egypt, for instance the Carnac temple.

    However, aligning anything with True North is easy. It has never been a riddle, whoever says so is just out to get some good press for a book or research grants.

    I describe in my How to use a Compass-pages (in a section on how to navigate without a compass), how you can find true north easily, and to extremely high accuracy by only using the sun. They could well achieve the desired accuracy with the methods described there.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  3. I have my doubts by rde · · Score: 3

    I don't doubt that the method used would have worked, but the article (I think; I'll have to read it again) gives no reasons for the anicent Egyptians to be aware of how or why that method would have worked. The article seems to imply that the scientists have figured not how the Egyptians did it, but how the scientists themselves would have done it had they found themselves thrown back in time.

    1. Re:I have my doubts by xpccx · · Score: 3
      For question 1c), There are more than the 3 pyramids in Ghaza to verify the error in alignment.

      For the rest of question 1), in the Nature article is says "...the earth's axis is not fixed; it precesses so that the north celestial pole moves in a small circle on the sky with a 26,000-year period. When the Egyptians were constructing their tombs, there was no visible pole star within two degrees of true north, yet they were able to achieve an accuracy of just three arc minutes (one twentieth of a degree)." I highly doubt this would be achieved by chance or human error.

      Then it continues. "By running computer simulations of the night sky back to the time of the Egyptian kingdoms, she has also identified the stars that were most probably used -- z-Ursae Majoris and g-Ursae Minoris -- one each from the constellations of The Great and The Little Bear, which had simultaneous transits in 2467 BC."

      And then, "Because of the precession of the Earth's axis, these two stars would have simultaneous transits only for a year or so. One would therefore expect errors in alignments to increase with time away from 2467 BC. This is exactly what is seen -- plotting the estimated construction date of the pyramids against their error in orientation produces a remarkably straight line, with those built before 2467 BC pointing slightly east and those built afterwards pointing slightly west."

      For question 2), the answer is not necessarily. Because some of the pyramids are slightly east of true north and some are slightly west, and because the star(s) closest to true north vary with a 26,000 year period, I don't think there would be many other instances (in the time frame that the pyramids were built) that this could have happened. If all of the pyramids were built earlier than 2467 BC they would all be off slightly to the east and if they were all built after 2467 BC, they'd all be off to the west.

      For question 3, I don't believe the Egyptians knew that they weren't exactly at true north. And it's not so much that they would have been less accurate at any other period of time, it's that there would have been more pyramids to either the east or west of true north depending on when they started building them. The first pyramid built that is slightly to the west of true north tells you the first pyramid build after 2467 BC. And by measuring the error, it should tell you when the pyramid was built, since they know how long it would have taken the two starts to be off from true north by that amount.

    2. Re:I have my doubts by crulx · · Score: 5
      The reason that she feels that this is how the Egyptians aligned the pyrmids is that if they used this method, then the earlier pyramids would be out of alingment by a certain amount and the latter pyramids would be off a different amount. This is what she observed.

      So given the deviations of the pyramids directions, she has come up with a theory that fits all the data. As it seems to be the best theory for accounting how the pyramids where aligned, It will remain so either forever if it is true, or until a theory that better describes the actual methond is proven to fit the data.

      ---
      crulx

    3. Re:I have my doubts by DeadSea · · Score: 3
      This was on NPR last night. According to them, the egyption kings had a good reason for wanting to have their pyramids face true north. The kings wanted to become stars (of course!). They wanted to join the stars that were in the sky all night every day of the year and those stars are right around true north.

      Given this motivation and what we currently know about the ages of the pyramids it sounds as if they might have done it this way and we will be able to see if they really did do it this way. Sounds exciting to m

  4. Hiding the real truth by 91degrees · · Score: 4

    Why do scientists always have to come up with "rational explanations" when a simpler explanation is available?

    They quite clearly had outside help. Visitors helped them. They assisted in the construction of huge pyramids which they found useful as a navigation device. This also explains why the same shapes wer e found both in Egypt, and in South America.

    1. Re:Hiding the real truth by NoNeeeed · · Score: 3

      Ok, not sure how much of a piss take that comment was, but I just have to say a couple of things.

      There is a very good reason why the pyramid is so popular, it is about the most stable structure that can be built to any decent height. Both civilisations also built more tradidtional building, with columns etc, but these havn't survived as well so don't feature in the public conscience.

      Why do people continually put down the abilities of ancient peoples. Theses guys were probably no less intelligent than us today, they just knew less stuff. That north african region has always been quite prosperous, making the construction of the pyramids economically viable. People forget that technological developement has been exponential, the pace has been increasing all the time. Technology 7,000 years ago wasn't that much worse than that 2,000 years ago. vertually all we know in medicine and the physical sciences has been descovered in the last few hundred years of human existance.

      Also, don't lump the egyptians and the south americans, the latter were MUCH more recent, remember the incas were only wiped out a few hundred years ago by the spanish, while the hayday of the egyptians was several thousand years earlier.


      --
      Paul Leader
    2. Re:Hiding the real truth by corvi42 · · Score: 5

      What are you afraid of?
      That humans might be capable of remarkable things without alien intervention?

      1) a pyramid is a very commonly understood shape - it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, little kids can spontaneously come up with pyramidal shapes when playing - there's nothing mystical or extraterrestrial about multiple cultures coming up with them independantly.

      2) If the aliens wanted navigation beacons, and are so impressively advanced technologically - why not build them themselves? Why should they convince the native human populations who would take centuries to build them, and would require the entire economic output of the largest civilizations then in existence? If the aliens had the capacity to cross the gulf of space, why should they waste so much time on having us build these irregular beacons when they themselves could easily have built much better ones in a much shorter time?

      3) Why should aliens need navigation beacons? If they managed to find their way across the immense gulf of space, what help would a few piles of rocks do them? mountains and other natural marks are much more prominent and ( *apply cluestick* ) visible from space !!!

      4) If they really needed a few human-built pyramids to navigate with - why are these structures limited to central america and the middle east? there have been tons of human civilizations capable of creating pyramids - and theoretically the aliens would want navigation beacons spread all over the world - why only these two places?

      5) The central american pyramids and the egyptian pyramids were constructed at times differing by thousands of years - why such a gulf in time? If the aliens wanted to fly about - they'd want them all over the place at the same time?

      Wacked out theories like this are a convenient explanation for the naive and the ignorant. Do a little research and you'll see just how shabbily the theory holds together - ie. it doesn't at all.

      The pyramids are marvels of human accomplishment, and you really do a disservice to the heritage we have inherited by making up fairy stories to discredit the achievements of these people.

      --

      There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
    3. Re:Hiding the real truth by corvi42 · · Score: 3
      Well, I can't really speak for the aliens since I've never met anyone who I can be sure is an alien. However, since we must be at least as clever as the ancient Egyptians, it seems odd that we have a lot of trouble repeating their endeavours.

      We do???
      When was the last time anyone had trouble building big buildings? The medieval cathedrals are larger than the pyramids - nobody has trouble believing that human technology was insufficient for that. Anyone have any doubts as to whether the office towers in big cities around the world are constructed by humans or aliens?

      As for any uncertainty about the exact methods the Egyptians employed, that's just an issue of scholarly debate. To say that because its unclear means that it must have been outside forces is not simply a fallacy of reasoning. Look at it this way:

      pyramid building == mystery.

      aliens == mystery.

      therefore: pyramid building == aliens ?!?

      just because two things are mysterious doesn't mean they are the same. a mystery is by definition unknown and therefore there are no criteria at all upon which to associate it with anything else. It is a fallacy of the mythic imagination that can make the type of conclusions: aliens == mystery == God == quantum physics etc.

      The pyramids were porobably designed to be easily recognisable by optical recognition software. Hence alignment is also critical.

      Why would optical recognition software be necessary? just because its a current technology doesn't mean it is at all necessary to interstellar or planetary navigation. People manage to go into space and have no trouble getting home without the need for such software, people managed to land on specific geographic areas of the moon without the need for it, we can land probes in precise regions of distant planets without any such need. Maybe the aliens are stupid?

      Terrestrial navigation and interstellar navigation are 2 completely different problems that need to be solved separately.

      RA time difference of several thousand years just shows that they weren't in a hurry. Given the time it takes to cross interstellar differences they must have felt it worth the wait. Drafting in local labour and materials reduces the amount of machinery needed to transport across the galaxy.

      Again this doesn't explain why they would need such beacons. Why not just use a longitude & lattitude system? or why not navigate by geographical features? Finding Egypt from space isn't hard when you know even a little bit about geography. The pyramids are not visible from space without telephoto zoom - and that means you need to already know where to look.

      As for location, I would guess that they were only interested in reasonable advanced civilisations near the equater for exactly the same reason that NASA is based so far south.

      There were plenty of civilizations further to the equator than egypt - why them? There were civilizations along the Indus river very early - no pyramids, there were civilizations in south east asia very early - no pyramids.

      --

      There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
  5. Talk about a Spring-Winter Relationship by cibrPLUR · · Score: 5

    Dating pyramids is just wrong.

    --

    -cibrPLUR

  6. Talk about old news! by PhilHibbs · · Score: 5

    I submitted this story 4,400 years ago!

  7. Those clever pyramid builders. by corvi42 · · Score: 5

    I always like seeing such simple common-sense answers as these coming out. It shows that a little common sense is all that's needed to dispel the ridiculous "mysteries of the pyramids - were the egyptians in communication with aliens?" type hype.

    Aliens are a modern mythology, this is true, and we like our mythologies to explain all unknowns. But it really does a big disservice to our appreciation of what these people accomplished with their limited technology.

    I think in the end we moderns have a strong cultural prejudice, and like to believe that without the wonders of our modern world such accomplishments as the pyramids should not be possible without the aid of equally or greater technological skill - hence the desire for bringing aliens into the issue. But lets face it, the Egyptians weren't stupid, there's no evidence to suggest that human intelligence has increased over the millenia - just our technology. The Egyptians managed to create structures on a scale so grand that today we still marvel at them, its a marvel of human ingenuity - nothing to do with little grey men.

    --

    There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
  8. Magnetic Termite Mounds by ranulf · · Score: 5
    Travelling around Australia, you see lots of termite mounds in various places. In some parts, they are called "magnetic termite mounds", because they are tall, long, narrow things. And the length of the mound runs north-south (to within about 5 degrees).

    Apparently this is so the termites always have a warm side of the mound to rest in (the side will always be east or west of the mound, so it will always be heating up one of the long, tall sides, so there's always a lot of surface area).

    One thing puzzles me - how do these termites "know" how to do this?

    There are other pretty amazing things about these mounds too. They're made up entirely of waste grass, the termites eating grass and excreting this dry grass stuff, they're absolutely massive. Inside, there's a huge network of tunnel, and if you break a bit of the mound off so it's exposed, an army of termites will come out and start repairing it. Awesome!

    Apparently, you can also make a drink with water and crushed termite mound, which has some medicinal value, but I've forgotten what now.

    Go and visit Australia - there's so much there that's different from the rest of the world. I was gobsmacked!

    1. Re:Magnetic Termite Mounds by corvi42 · · Score: 5
      As for how animals know about north-south.
      In the case of these termites, it may be that they have an instinctual response to the warmth of the sun, and so naturally tend towards such construction. Simple instinctual coding like:

      if( front == warm || back == warm ){
      turn 90 degrees;
      }
      if( left == warm || right == warm ){
      build straight forward;
      }

      It is also interesting to note that very many animals seem to have an instinctual sense of north & south based on magnetism. Many cellular colonies will align themselves along the force lines of a magnet if it is left next to them. Geese have a high magnetic content in their blood and monarch butterfiles seem to use a magnetic sense to conduct their epic multi-generation migrations across continents. Various desert plants use a magnetic sensibility to detect oncoming storms and close their flowers. The list goes on and on.


      Traditionally it was held that magnetic fields have no effect on living organisms - but this is far from true. Given a constant force present in the environment it makes sense that a creature would evolve to account for it in some way. The earth has had a magnetic field since the dawn of life - it is not surprising that living creatures take advantage of it.

      --

      There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
  9. Incans? by Trinition · · Score: 3
    Are the South American pyramids aligned to true north also? Perhaps that fashion trend wasnot only limited to Africa.

    Typically if you find two people doing the same thing in two disconnected places, it tends to beef up a theory.

  10. At least this isn't another fairytales :) by Forge · · Score: 3

    What I find real silly were all the strange stores with magic, witchcraft and aliens to explain how the pyramids were built. After all it would take around 50 years to make one of these with modern equipment like Tractors and cutting lasers. How cold those primitive Egyptians do it?

    Only latter (1988 or so) when someone finally translated the inscriptions on the walls of one of the larger pyramids did it become clear. You see that story had been written by a prince who gave up his shot at becoming Pharaoh in order to be a scribe and an apprentice to the master architect.

    It seams they did it with lots of ingenuity and by share force of numbers. As many as 150,000 on the project at some points. The sand of the desert was used the way we would use Hydraulics now. In short this was pure genius and not even a little odd.

    So what of those fairytales? Some of them resurface every now and then. As for this alignment to the stars, Well the way I figure it; If you can pile a thousand rocks of 10 tons or more into a perfect pyramid that holds without cement figuring out which direction is north seams simple :)

    --
    --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
  11. Aliens are not the ONLY explenation by fons · · Score: 5
    Sceptics always laugh these theories away because they think it's all in the head of a bunch of alien-spotters.

    But there are some serious scientists working on this, and they don't believe in aliens but in an unknown civilisation previous to the one of ancient egypt.

    I saw an interesting (and serious) documentary on this a while ago (don't know if this has been posted before). I don't remember the details but here are some of the facts i do remember:

    1. Giza Pyramids in Egypt are aligned with Orion
    2. The big sphinx is WAY older than we thought. some geologist proved this.
    3. The Teotihuacan Pyramids (In SOUTH AMERICA)display about the same layout as the Giza Pyramids with regard to Orion's belt. (by the way these people didn't have the knowledge of the wheel, yet they are supposed to have build these pyramids)
    4. Various sculptures from different cultures that lived about 4.000 to 5.000 years ago in SOUTH AMERICA portray bearded people and black people. How did they get there? South Americans are genetically unable to have such beard-growth and arn't black either.
    5. Old maps show almost the exact shape of antarctica. But antarctica is covered with ice and we only know the shape of antarctica because of radar and other hi-tech stuff. So how did they do that?
    6. In China they olso have big old pyramids
    Possible answers are:
    1. There used to be a civilsation we know nothing about that existed BEFORE continent-drift began.
    2. Continent-drift started later then we think
    All very interesting stuff and worth some seious research if u ask me. (sorry for my poor english)
  12. We're talking 4500 years by Galvatron · · Score: 5
    Aren't there going to be a lot of other forces working to move the pyramids out of alignment? If I remember correctly, continental drift is about an inch per year. That would be 126 yards. Plus, the ground could have sunk irregularly, or there could have been errosion. Besides which, the pyramids used to be coated with sandstone, which has since weathered away, and I'm not sure if anyone knows how thick it was. I'm not saying that this theory couldn't be right, but saying that the movement of the stars is the only thing that we need to know to figure out what the pyramids were aligned to seems rather silly. A lot can happen in 4500 years.

    --
    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    1. Re:We're talking 4500 years by cr0sh · · Score: 3

      Your ideas are sound, but I have to make one minor correction:

      You state the pyramids were covered in sandstone, which has worn down. Actually, I believe they were covered in highly polished granite stones, so that each face was perfectly smooth. At the top of the Cheops pyramid, was a small pyramid of marble, put on as a "cap" stone.

      These finishing touches weren't worn down - but instead stripped off the pyramids for use in building other structures (predressed stones, of a high quality - who will miss em?) - I think the cap stone of Cheops was taken by "grave robbers" or some such. Looking at Cheops today, one can still see what is left of the cladding stones near the apex of that pyramid.

      One can only wonder what these structures looked like when they were first built - probably an insane sight to behold.

      This is not to say all pyramids were built this way - many of the early pyramids were closer to ziggurats than true pyramids, and had a squat stepped appearance.

      I support the EFF - do you?

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon