U.S. Supreme Court Issues Election Ruling
Well, the United States Supreme Court has given their "ruling" concerning the Florida Supreme Court. They've asked for more information fromthe Florida Supreme Court. Update: 12/04 06:01 PM by H : You can read the the actual ruling as well. Update: 12/04 07:59 PM by H :Thanks to Mr. Sturkel for this much better analysis: "In today's posting of the Supreme Court ruling on the Florida ballot
case you state that the Supreme Court over turned the Florida State
Supreme Court case on manual recounts; this is incorrect. The High Court
"set aside" the case, not over turned it which is two different things.
In setting aside the case the Supreme Court asked the Florida Supreme
Court to re-examine the case and to explain and clarify further the
basis of their ruling, In a nutshell, The Supreme Court wants to know
why the Florida Supreme Court did what they did before issuing a final
ruling on the case."
They didn't really overturn it; they sent it back to the Florida state Supreme Court to reconsider.
"Extremism in defense of liberty is more fun."
For good or for ill (probably for ill), the Federal government has been taking power away from the states since about two days before the Constitution was ratified. In spite of the 10th Amendment.
Citizens choose candidates based upon the promises of "getting something done", "stopping something," "giving you something" that candidates make.
Invariably, these promises step on the toes of the states, who are either trying to do the same thing, do the opposite, or do nothing at all.
Statism, as opposed to Federalism, is a simple result of the tendency of voters to give away their votes for a buck or a sentiment, sometimes both.
Either quit bitching about the Feds, or learn to vote for candidates who promise to do nothing.
The only thing that we learn from history is that nobody learns anything from history.
*yawn* Let me guess-- you voted Republican.
If you've been following the opinion polls on all this, everything is sharply divided. About half the country thinks the Republicans are a bunch of crafty, evil, election stealers. The other half of the country thinks the Democrats are a bunch of crafty, evil, election stealers. Each side comes up with a lot of boring, self-righteous rhetoric. The truth is, each side is trying their damnedest to win the election, ideals be damned. The Democrats say "every vote should be heard", and then fight to get military ballots invalidated. The Republicans say, "this should be decided by the people, not the courts", and then are the first to file a lawsuit.
The truth is, both candidates are going to come out of this looking bad, and low on support. They're both going to have trouble with re-election.
The Supreme Court of the U.S. managed to stay out of the entire shitstorm by not making a decisive decision about how the election results should be treated. They may catch some crap for that, but most people are quite happy that they have some enough respect for state's rights to stay out of it.
A copy of the Supreme Court's slip opinion is quoted below: Source: Dec. 4: High court ruling on recounts.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
I don't want to be rude, but you are simply wrong regarding the effect of the U.S. Supreme Court's decision.
The U.S. Supreme Court's slip opinion, which I posted below, does not reverse the opinion of the Florida Supreme Court, it instead vacates and remands the decision in order to obtain clarification. The U.S. Supreme Court specifically states: Thus, even this specific matter is far from over. The Florida Supreme Court could clarify its decision, make it clear that it knows that the Florida Constitution does not circumscribe the legislature' s authority under Art. II, 1, cl. 2 of the U.S. Constitution, and reach the same result. The U.S. Supreme Court could then review the new decision by the Florida Supreme Court.
Only Women Bleed (Sex, Sharia remix)
Reuters is wrong.
The ruling was per curiam .
It's pretty safe to bet that there was some major dissent within SCOTUS but they knew that they couldn't afford to issue a split decision, so they fell back on the slightly cute per curiam dodge saying "we're confused".
What they mean is "we're arguing, rewrite your decision so we can stop arguing".
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Make mine methylphenidate.
I don't know what you mean by "a result that's within the margin of error." If you mean that the margin of error far outmeasures the margin of victory, you are correct. But if that's what you mean, how should the result be "closed"?
The sad truth is that we will never know who won the popular vote in the state of Florida. The number of votes which are up for interpretation far outnumber the margin of victory. The scary part is that an election whose results will never be accurately known is going to decide the next president. We will truly have a government "Of the lawyers, by the lawyers, and for the lawyers" as we begin the 21st century.
Too bad nothing good will probably ever come of this. What is happening this year is just an extreme example of a systemic problem with the way we elect our President. The simple fact is that a margin of 1000 votes should not be deciding the election. The current electoral college system paired with winner-takes-all election in Florida is what created this mess. If Florida choose it's electors in proportion to the popular vote, this would be a non-issue. If the president was elected via popular vote, this would be a non-issue. Sure, the national popular vote was close also, but Gore's lead in the national popular vote is at least an order of magnitude larger than Bush's lead in FL.
Nothing will change, though. Most potential voters don't even bother to show up. The rest don't realize that the current two-party system is engineered in the election laws. They take it on faith that there are two parties because people want only two parties. Most Americans don't realize the severity of the current problem, much less see the systemic weaknesses causing it. Americans have no clue that the rest of the world is looking on thinking that our country is being run like some third rate "fledgling democracy" with rigged elections and everything (plus the largest nuclear arsonal in the world.)
She wasn't born in the United States.
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E_NOSIG
The War of Northern Agression Continues...
8*)
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Shouldn't this be under "USA" or whatever it is called (the flag). I don't really get the significance of this message for the Internet
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
What the Supreme Court sent back was not a unanimous ruling, but an unsigned ruling, meaning that we have no idea how many of the justices supported the decision. It's extremely likely, in fact that this was a bittrly fought split decision.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
IAAL, but more importantly, I can read. 95% of the slashdotters who have posted on this subject have obviously not even bothered to read the short order issued by the Supreme Court (7 pages). (Of course, based on the teaser for this story, it doesn't look like Hemos read it either.) 1. The order was issued "PER CURIAM" which means "by the court." Black's Law Dictionary defines "PER CURIAM" further: A phrase used to distinguish an opinion of the whole court from an opinion written by any one judge. Sometimes it denotes an opinion written by the chief justice or presiding judge, or to a brief announcement of the disposition of a case by court not accompanied by a written opinion. 2. Although the Supreme Court remanded (sent back) the decision to the Florida Supreme Court, it made clear that the Florida Supreme Court could NOT rely upon some of the grounds cited in the opinion - - like the right of suffrage the Florida Supreme Court found in the Flordia Constitution. But it remains possible that the Florida Supreme Court could write (although it probably couldn't do it with a straight face), that it was merely interpreting conflicting state statutory provisions, and that as a matter of statutory interpretation it determined that the deadline was flexible, etc. Why hasn't anyone in the media bothered to point out how ridiculous some of the logic in the Florida Supreme Court decision was? The court found a conflict in two provisions: one that said the Secretary of State SHALL disregard late ballots, and another saying the she MAY disregard such ballots. How can anyone rationally say that the way to resolve this supposed conflict is to combine "MAY" and "SHALL" into "CANNOT!??"
A summary of the State of the Nation
(http://www.ihatelinux.com/images/TIME_cover.jpg)
NO CARRIER
That's not the way I read the polls. "Fifty-seven percent say Gore should concede the election, about the same as the 60 percent on Nov. 26, the night of the certification.... At the same time, 57 percent in this ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll say the two counties that didn't complete the hand counts that Gore requested -- Miami-Dade and Palm Beach -- should do so, and should have those tallies counted in the final total. That's the central issue in Gore's contest of the Florida results, being heard in Tallahassee. This isn't a change in opinion; back on Nov. 16 about the same number, 56 percent, favored including hand counts in the final tally."
The fact that many Gore supporters want Gore to concede does not seem to me to be that they don't agree with Gore, just that they feel that he isn't going to win. Just as if Bush were holding a gun to the head of the Democratic Party, demanding the presidency, many Gore supporters would be agree with the VP, but hope he concedes for the sake of the party.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
Damnit Hemos...to be perfectly honest, political coverage on /. is horrid. Anytime a post-election item has been put on the main page, it's always accompanied by a totally uninformed blanket statement like "Bush is the winner." It's STILL not over -- to be precise, the Supreme Court decision was that the justices were not convinced that the Florida Supreme Court could rely on the Florida State Constitution for what they did, and said the Florida court needed to find a different way to justify its decision, like statutory clarification. One possible (and likely) scenario is that the Florida Supreme Court will look for a way to rewrite its opinion, probably just by removing any references to the state constitution so that it is merely deciding a conflict between two seemingly contradictory laws. This is beside the fact that simply reversing the Florida Supreme Court's decision does not end the election anyway because there are proceedings in other courts that remain uneffected.
Anyway, PLEASE don't attempt to be a political reporter! It can be very misleading if you don't know all the details. Just link to an AP story or something and let it be.
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
The US Supreme Court is not asking Florida for more information, and they have issued a final ruling. Read the decision yourself.
They didn't overturn the decision, that's true. They vacated it. What's the difference, you ask?
Overturning a judge is turning to him and saying, "You made the wrong decision. We're making the decision for you." The overturned judge gets no say in what's going on.
Vacating a decision, however, is turning to the judge (or in our case, the Florida Supreme Court) and saying, "You made the wrong decision. Make a new one that doesn't conflict with our opinion."
This is not a request for new information. This is not a "temporary" ruling pending further information. The US Supreme Court couldn't care less why the Floridians ruled the way they did.
What the Supreme Court said is that they don't understand why the Florida court made its decision, and that the decision is wrong. Therefore, the Florida Supreme Court must go back and correct its mistake.
That's the final ruling.
There are potential situations, however, where the Fla. Court makes a new decision which is inconsistent with the US Court ruling, whereby Bush or another party may take up the matter with the US Supreme Court. That isn't a reconsideration of the present opinion, though; that's a separate legal matter which deals with a court's noncompliance with the US Supreme Court order.
If you don't believe me, look at the bottom line of the ruling: "It is so ordered." If they were requesting more information, they wouldn't issue an order. The last line would be, "This decision is valid pending further information from the Florida Supreme Court."
Sheesh, get the damn news straight already.
I do not belong in the spam.redirect.de domain.
Given that msnbc is the primary source of information for most of the commentators here, much of this converstation isn't surprising... www.FindLaw.com provides complete and timely PDF's of all original filings, briefs, etc. as well as mp3's etc of testimony. Take a look at:c tion2000.html 0 0836final.pdf
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/us/election/ele
They have every filing from every legal action related to the issue. Today's SCOTUS ruling can be found at:
http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/election2000/usc
bob wyman
I know it's en vogue on slashdot not to actually READ the linked story before commenting, but I'd have hoped the slashdot staff was above that. Apparently not. All this opinion says is, in essence, "We don't know why you did what you did. Please explain." This is HARDLY a "transfer of power" from the states to the Federal government.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
... all you programmers (Java-style).
The Citizen->PresidentialCandidate->GeorgeWBush class passed as input the return value from the State->Justice->SupremeCourt->Florida object to the Federal->Justice->SupremeCourt object. The Federal->Justice->SupremeCourt has thrown an InsufficientLawPrecedentException. The detail fields of that Exception has been repassed to the State->Justice->SupremeCourt->Florida object, along with the original parameters. We are waiting for the return value.
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Well, comsidering that federal supremacy has been the norm since McCollough v. Maryland in the early 1800s, I wouldn't be real surprised by this ruling. The Florida Supreme Court severely overstepped its bounds by adding time to the election procedings, which is a violation of the Article II of the US Constitution which gives control over election procedings to the state legislatures. The state judiciary has no right to dictate the terms of a state election, especially when not asked to do so.
This is a very easy ruling for the SCOTUS, as there was a clear violation of the Constitution by the Florida Supreme Court. Not only that, but the case Roe v. Alabama sets a federal precedent against changing election procedures while an election is still being counted. Clearly the SC was acting within the confines of federal and Constitutional law, and was not eroding state's rights in any way. States rights do not include the ability to violate federal law.
BTW, IANAL, but I am a political scientist.
"What's interesting here is that inadverently, GWB's case has transferred a significant amount of power from the States to the Federal Government."
Democrats are all for the federal government stomping over states rights to impose the federal nanny state. Only when they want their man in the White House, to they find that old time states rights religion.
Republicans are all for states rights when it comes to gun laws and restricting abortions. When your state decides to decriminalize medical marijuana or physician-assisted suicide, the Republicans come out of the woodwork to impose the power of the federal government on these uppity states.
Just goes to show that both major parties are inconsistent and hypocritical when it comes to states rights. The one good thing that can come of the mess is a new resurgence in third-party voters. This Libertarian doesn't have much hope, but there can't be a clearer example that the major parties stand for nothing. There is no principle that they will let get in the way of their victory.
Here's the ruling. (The decision is in the last few lines.)
/. should be using wonkish acronyms, don't you think?)
First off, I think you put this in the wrong category--I'm pretty sure this isn't an Internet issue. (Okay, I see you fixed that while I wrote this. Good.)
Second, the Supreme Court did not overturn the Florida Supreme Court. They remanded the decision. The proper headline is "SCOTUS Sends Case Back to SCOF" (since
Third, as others have pointed out, it wasn't a "unanimous ruling", it was an unsigned ruling.
Fourth, "meaning that Bush is the winner" is misleading and vague, particularly since it doesn't say what he is the winner of. And he didn't really win anything, except more PR fodder.
Fifth, you should present some justification for your conclusion about the transference of power; I expect you can't, particularly since the news about this decision is vague and incomplete. Even if SCOTUS had ruled against the Florida Supreme Court, that wouldn't have transferred power away from the states to the federal govt., it would have transferred power away from the people and the courts to the legislative and executive branches.
However, I want to say that I don't particularly blame CmdrTaco for being so misleading, since the coverage has been confused--as the story first came out on the Net, the one-line reports were changing. General media coverage has been confusing, but they're starting to fix their sites and get the story right--I hope CmdrTaco will correct his post as well.
Finally, I want to say that I am very thankful that CmdrTaco posted this, because for anyone who cares about the long-term health of the republic and believes in the ideals of democracy this election is of utmost concern.
So, thank you, but get your facts straight.
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Make mine methylphenidate.