Posted by
Hemos
on from the from-way-back-in-the-vaults dept.
AngrySpud writes "For those LotR fans out there, Salon.com has posted an MP3 of J.R.R. Tolkien himself reading from The Two Towers. It can be found here."
These were released -- on this side of the Atlantic, at least -- a few years ago by HarperCollins, who have their own Tolkien imprint. There's a double cassette of the great man, not only reading, but singing all those elven things that I tend to skip over in the book.
If you're interested, wander over to here (which is a frame inside this)
Say to thorin 'carry me'|say to thorin 'go window'|se|e|se|e|get ring|n|d|n|go crack
It seems that movie adaptations of first-rate books turn out somewhat dismally. Just imagine a movie of _War and Peace_ (I know there is one, but haven't seen it; I _have_ read the book); I can't imagine it doing any kind of justice to the book.
Have you actually read princess bride, the example cited by the person you replied to? It is in fact an excellent book in many ways (Not the least of which is its imagination) and yet the movie was still quite good. Perhaps not your cup, but it was well-acted, well-produced, makes god use of cinematography, et cetera. The movie, of course, does not go into as much as the book does, but somehow it manages to feel complete in any case. The book is simply more so.
Most good movie adaptations are of second-rate books. I think it's a matter of expectations.
Or maybe it's because the story was better suited to a movie than to a book.
Now Tolkien, he wrote some first-rate stuff.
No argument here. Of course, IMO The Silmarillion is a stinker; It's more like an intellectual exercise than anything else to me, using the "Holy" Bible as sample material, with a bunch of Begats and whatnot. About as exciting as watching flies copulate. Your mileage may vary, of course. Anyway, I have hopes (though perhaps not high ones) for the LotR movies coming out, which at least seem to have the heart in the right place.
-- "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
What I really love about LOTR
by
Zachary+Kessin
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· Score: 2
Is that I feal like I'm moving in a real place. You know that JRRT knew what was on the other side of that hill or under that mountin. He may not tell you in the book but he knew. To many SF and fantasy books have felt like a movie set where if you went past that wall there would be a grey nothing.
To be fair I feal the same way about Terry Pratchet's Diskworld and the Harry Potter books. In both cases I feal that they author has a lot more vision than we see in print. (OK its not quite the same but I like all 3)
The cure of the ills of Democracy is more Democracy.
Incredible scope? Incredible scope?!?! Damn, that's an understatement. It requires five pages of genealogical charts, a pronunciation guide, dozens of pages of glossary, a fold out map, an index, and footnotes every other page just to make heads or tails of it.
For comparison, I've never seen a history textbook with that much scope, nor that much detail.
-- .sig: Now legally binding!
...and in other news.
by
spellcheckur
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· Score: 5
Next week on the Micro$oft website, William Gates himself reading from the M$ End User License Agreement...
That might count as him agreeing to the license agreement, which is something even he probably doesn't want to do.
Re:I wonder why the link ?
by
Chester+K
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· Score: 2
Another thing seems to be that it is the Unix geeks above all who seem to have a higher artistic sensibility, and like tolkien more than the average NT geek, for whom the "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" seems to hold more interest.
I think you're stereotyping a bit. Not all Unix geeks like Tolkein. Not all NT geeks like Adams. I'm a Terry Pratchett fan and I prefer Unix over NT as a server. I could rattle off the names of several of my coworkers that think that the whole fantasy genre is crap.
I can take or leave Tolkien. I don't like anime much. I wasn't one of the downtrodden in high school. Hemos, CmdrTaco, JonKatz and the rest of the Slashdot crew don't speak for the entire geek community, by any stretch of the imagination. Any attempts to put us in nice little easily-filed boxes is destined to failure.
I have to admit that I really enjoyed reading Tolkien's books when I was a child. The hobbit was the first book that I read in English, and I was thrilled. A few years later when I my English had improved, I read the Lord of the Rings and again I was so impressed with Tolkien's Middle Earth.
A few years later though, I decided to re-read the book. Even though Tolkien's descriptions amazed me as much as the first time, this time I didn't enjoy it so much.
Why? The plot! It simply didn't make sense. Here was a ring, that could determine the fate of the entire world. And who is assigned to go to the land of Mordor and destroy it? A moronic hobbit who has never been more than a few miles away from his house! OK, I am sort of convinced of the need for secrecy and the fact that they couldn't send an army to do the task, but a hobbit??
I mean there are the first born elves, creatures far superior to hobbits, almost immortal seasoned warriors with millenia of experience, and yet Gandalf has to give the ring to a hobbit who barely knows how to use a kitchen knife.
There are wizards like Gandalf and Saruman with the ability to defeat entire armies on their own, and yet they send a hobbit who cannot defend himself from a wild animal.
Sorry, but I think that the plot of the book is just illogical. Yes, it is a good childrens' book, but it certainly does not deserve the cult status it has gained...
Actually, there have been several, including a massive, filmed-in-70mm, 7-hour Russian version made in 1968. Yes, that's not a typo, it really is 7 hours long!
He tried to get it published several times before the
Hobbit was even written, and nearly gave up in frustration. If he had, we never would have had the Hobbit, nor the
LotR.
The really remarkable thing about the Silmarillion, IMO, is that it was apparently never really finished. Tolkein continued to revise and completely rewrite sections well after the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were published. Part of the reason that the Silmarillion is of such uneven tone and polish throughout is that some of the stories hadn't been revised since the 1930's, while others had been rewritten shortly before his death. The Silmarillion as published was really a compilation of stories in different stages of revision, and even from slightly different stages of his conception of the underlying story, edited just enough to ensure coherence, as they existed at the time of Tolkein's death.
This stuff is revealed (in inordinate detail) in the whole History of Middle Earth series, which is basically his son's editing and deciphering of his papers. If you're a hardcore Tolkein fan, or just somebody who's very interested in the creative process, it's fascinating to see how the stories developed over time. What is particularly interesting is the way in which elements that were minor and trivial in the earliest versions gradually became more important, and vice versa. It makes you wonder if such a thing could even be possible today, given the way that people tend to overwrite their old word processing files instead of leaving paper copies of their work at different stages around to be looked over by later scholars.
--
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Re:Text Version for Comparison
by
gorlim
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· Score: 2
Here's another
e-text of the Lord of the Rings. But it seems to have mutated a bit...
Re:I wonder why the link ?
by
Chris+Pimlott
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· Score: 2
I could rattle off the names of several of my coworkers that think that the whole fantasy genre is crap.
Of course they do, they're all sci-fi fans.
</me ducks>
Hm, you said it yourself, really...you seem to like light, entertaining reading that doesn't require a lot of effort. To someone raised on fantasy written in the 90's, Lord of the Rings must seem awfully dull. Why, there are three whole books and you can count the number of spells cast on one hand.
The thing to remember when trying to read the greatest fantasy epic ever is that it wasn't even written by a fantasy author! That's right, the man who wrote Lord of the Rings didn't depend on appealing to a certain demographic in order to sell novels. The author was a professor of literature, and liked to invent phony languages. In order for a phony language to make sense, it has to have a phony cultural backdrop, and Tolkien had always been partial to the legends of elves and dwarves and hill people. Hence, he invented half a dozen races, each with their own language, and an entire history for an entire world. Since he was a linguist, not a profit-driven author, he took his time fashioning the world (decades), and it was something he enjoyed doing, not a chore to be completed. The result, a slim three volumes plus a few supplements, must seem unconvincing at best to a person accustomed to a single trilogy being the smallest unit of paperback novel creation.
Try reading "the Hobbit". It's much shorter, doesn't deal with weighty issues, and is an easy read (it is often the first full-length book that foreign students of English read).
The animated movie sucks. Everybody pretty much agrees.
OK, I consider myself something of an expert on the LOTR, having read dozens of times, as well as "The Road To Middle Earth", the Silmarillion, and the entire history. Anyway.
The plot is NOT illogical. There is an excellent reason why Frodo is chosen to carry the ring, and not Gandalf, Glorfindel, or one of the other much more powerful characters.
The Ring tends to corrupt anyone who owns it, and is a huge temptation for the powerful. Gandalf was offered the Ring by Frodo and refused it, since he knew it would make him far more powerful, but also that he would not be able to resist the urge to use it... "Do not tempt me!... I shall have such need of it".
Frodo, on the other hand, has far less innate power and thus is not so tempted. Even so, by the time he and Sam get to Mordor Frodo has reached the point where he can barely resist using the ring, and certainly cannot throw it into the Fire on his own willpower.
If you didn't get that fundamental point in the plot, no wonder you didn't enjoy the book.
Didn't you notice the discussion between Gandalf and Denethor about the ring? Denethor, who has great power, makes exactly the same complaint you do."To send this... in the hands of a witless halfling [into Mordor] is foolishness".
But Gandalf replies "Were it buried beneath the roots of [Mount] Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away.... I do not trust you... Nay, stay your anger! I do not trust myself in this matter".
And that is why Frodo carried the ring. Please, read the book again - or at least the two chapters "The Shadow of the Past" and "The Council of Elrond" from the first book. All of this stuff is very carefully set up by Tolkien so the rest of the book follows logically from these premises.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
-- Torrey Hoffman (Azog) "HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
More Tolkien trivia / claim to fame
by
mattbee
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· Score: 2
That's a co-incidence; I'm from Oxford, and when I was small my parents used to live in the house next-door to Tolkien too (albeit a few years after his death). The house still has a little plaque on it.
If you're a hardcore Tolkein fan, or just somebody who's very interested in the creative process, it's fascinating to see how the stories developed over time. What is particularly interesting is the way in which elements that were minor and trivial in the earliest versions gradually became more important, and vice versa.
Although if you do read those books you will probably be shocked to find out that Strider was originally called "Trotter" and "Trotter" was a Hobbit and not a Numenorian. An incredible read, for the hardcore fan, but it does put a little ding in the magic...
Hmm... I am getting mixed messages here. Kiss The Blade agrees with me that I should not try to rationalise the Lord of the Rings, whereas you say the exact opposite. In response to your points:
You may have forgotten that Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, a wizard, an elven lord, and an elven lady, (of the third generation of elves ever to live, IIRC), all REFUSED the burden of the ring.
Yes, but that does not mean anything. They refused the ring simply because they knew it too well. It was their skills that Sauron had copied in order to make it. They had the three rings and they knew their amazing strength. The one ring was more powerful than the others combined, so the elves were rightly terrified.
Frodo on the other hand was a totally clueless hobbit: the only magic he knew was Gandalf's fireworks and smoke rings. Not very scary stuff, is it? If he had any idea what powers the ring held he would have been just as terrified. The elves had the responsibility to destroy the ring as:
a. it was their skills that Sauron had copied to make the ring
b. they were they supreme race on middle-earth
c. they did not know almost anything about hobbits and their resistance to magic or the other physical wounds that you mention as no hobbit before Frodo and his friends had been in such an adventure. Placing their faith on Frodo was therefore totally unjustified.
As for Boromir: he was a weakly mortal human, I will not even compare him to elves.
In general the whole plot of the LotR just seems very "cheap". Gandalf always appears at the right moment to help the others: when he finds the two lesser hobbits (I forget their names), when goes to Gondor, when he rescues Faramir from the fire, and of course when he starts the battle at exactly the right moment. Too many coincidences for my liking. It seems to me that when Tolkien was writing this, whenever he got stuck he thought "Oh, time to bring Gandalf to save the day". Not very convincing is it?
In other words LotR appears to much like a another childrens' story of a poor little boy who lands unwillingly is a large adventure, struggles a lot, comes close to failing (to have some suspense), but manages to save the day and become a hero. Just like all those stories with the same theme (Star Wars, The Matrix, E.T) it is good for children, but it does not come close to becoming a proper mythology (like the ancient Greek legents with real heroes battling real monsters and god) despite what Tolkien's fans seem to think.
Tolkien doing Gollum's voice
by
finkployd
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· Score: 2
Did anyone else expect Gullum to claim "Eh, that rabbit is not dead" or perhaps "Aragorn, you are the king eh? I don't remember voting for you"
I mean seriously, Frodo and Samwise should have just brought him a shrubbery.
In later years a Tolkein-groupie approached my grandmother asking all sorts of questions about Mrs Tolkein, her theory being that Galadriel was based on her.
Tolkien imagined his wife more as Luthien, the most beautiful woman to have ever lived. Read about her in the story of Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion. A love so strong that it defied the gods and death itself. In fact, John's and Edith's tombstones read:
EDITH MARY TOLKIEN LUTHIEN 1889-1971
JOHN RONALD REUEL TOLKIEN BEREN 1892-1973
They refused the ring simply because they knew it too well
No. The powerful (Gandalf, Galadriel) didn't refuse the One Ring because they "knew it too well". What would that have to do with it? They refused it because they knew it would corrupt them and turn them to evil.
It was their skills that Sauron had copied in order to make it.
No. Sauron did not copy the Elves' skills to make the one ring. He gave the elves (Celebrimbor, actually) much of the neccessary knowlege, and he had a hand in making all the rings except the Three (Narya, Nenya, and Vilya). He was the source of the knowlege for making the rings.
But since Sauron was giving this information to Celebrimbor, he knew more than he said and thus was able to forge the One Ring to rule all the others. While he wore the One Ring, he could read the thoughts of the other ring bearers.
they did not know almost anything about hobbits and their resistance to magic or the other physical wounds that you mention as no hobbit before Frodo and his friends had been in such an adventure
No. Gandalf was an expert on Hobbits. And Bilbo had been on a similar, if lesser adventure. Gandalf knew that Bilbo had amazing powers of resistance to the Ring, and knew that Frodo could resist it as well. After all, Frodo had kept the ring for about twenty years already at the start of the story without too much effect, and Gandalf had been keeping an eye on him to see how he did.
It seems to me that when Tolkien was writing this, whenever he got stuck he thought "Oh, time to bring Gandalf to save the day".
Actually, if you read the history of the LOTR you can find out a lot of what Tolkien was thinking as he designed the plot. Gandalf certainly saves the day sometimes, but what would you expect - he is the most powerful, magic-using person short of Sauron himself. But Gandalf can't be everywhere. When he saved Faramir from the funeral pyre, a consequence of it was that Eowyn and Merry had to face the chief of the Nine Riders unaided - and very nearly died as a result. Gandalf had planned to be in the battle instead of saving Faramir, and he worried aloud about the consequences.
but it does not come close to becoming a proper mythology (like the ancient Greek legents with real heroes battling real monsters and god
Uh, have you actually read any Greek mythology? Do you know how little sense that stuff makes? Do greek myths have maps, a cast of thousands of characters, a continuous and consistant imaginary history spanning thousands of years... Ok enough ranting.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
-- Torrey Hoffman (Azog) "HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
It is difficult to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. I'm not meaning that personally, but you do not have a good grasp of the material.
You are wrong. Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel all refuse the ring because they fear that they will succomb to it's power. Galadriel's temptation is the most elegant and complete description of this temptation. The Council of Elrond provides the background. Frodo knew very well the burden he was bearing, and what it was capable of. That is why he offered it to Galadriel, because he saw the good she could do with it; she saw the evil.
Sauron did not copy the skills of Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel. The elven rings were made by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor the greatest elven smith ever) and Sauron never touched them. However, since their construction was dependent upon ring lore which Sauron revealed to Celebrimbor, they were still slaves to the One Ring.
The Elves were not the supreme race on earth. You seem convinced of that and I don't understand why. Read the Silmarillion, find out why the Elves were glad for the arrival of the Edain (men) into Beleriand because they were a hardy race and able to keep watch on Morgoth (Sauron's mentor; think Emperor to Sauron's Darth Vader) in the extreme cold where the elves would not go for long. Read about how the dwarves were the only ones to withstand the onslaught of the Father of Dragons, Glaurung, while the elves fled. Find out about Turin Turambar who slew Glaurung, and Hurin his father, the greatest warrior to ever live, who defended the retreat of the elves during the 5th battle and was the last on the field that day, killing 70 trolls as he hacked through the ranks of the bodyguard of the Lord of Balrogs.
The Wise did know of Hobbits. Gandalf had taken an interest in them for many years and long studied them. The Dunedain, the survivors of the ancient kingdom of Arthedain (of which Aragorn was chief), had long guarded the Shire and kept watch on the hobbits. Bilbo had adventures, had carried the ring, and he was known and loved by elves, dwarves, and men. He had found the One Ring, saved the dwarves, helped bring about the downfall of the great dragon Smaug, and indirectly helped bring Elves, men, dwarves, and eagles together to wipe out a large portion of the goblins in that area of the world. Bilbo legitimized hobbits like no other. The Wise knew of hobbits.
Two lesser hobbits? I assume you mean Merry and Pippin. The two hobbits who raised the Ents to take action and destroy Saruman's war machine? The hobbits who became knights of two of the most powerful kingdoms of men? The hobbits who helped with the killing of the Chief of the Nazgul, who helped recover the Shire from Saruman's clutches, who sat exposed to the will of Sauron himself through the palantir and resisted as even Saruman could not?
Gandalf does not just ride in to save the day. He sacrificed himself against the Balrog, yes. If not him, Aragorn, or Boromir, or Legolas would have. He did not lead the Hourns to Helm's Deep, they came because of their hatred of orcs, they were mustered by the Ents, who were roused to fight by Treebeard, who was convinced by the two hobbits you discounted. Gandalf was not a deux ex machina, as you would have him be. His appearances and arrival make good sense. Did he save the hobbits from Old Man Willow? The Barrow Wights? Bree? Weathertop? Shelob's Lair? Cirith Ungol? No, he did not. Did he seize an opportunity to direct the eagles to the rescue of Frodo and Sam once the ring had been destroyed? Yes, he is intelligent and knew what was happening.
The Lord of the Rings is not a children's story in the sense that you mean it. It is high fantasy, epic, dark, glorious, and real. Many people hold that themes get repeated, and the same is true for LotR. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature and he drew upon many stories, names, legends, etc to create his work. In fact, he did such a good job, that Tolkien's very complete fantasy world helps a modern reader better understand such works as Beawulf, King Arthur, and the Ring Cycle. It can however, be enjoyed by children and adults.
Boromir was not a weak human. In fact, he is a typical man. Strong, capable, and frustrated that he can not exercise his will (which in his heart he believes to be pure) for the good of everyone. He was strong in that he realized his errors and short comings. Boromir is everyman in a very real way.
There are very good reasons why the Lord of the Rings is a book/books that appears at the top of every most influential books list. I'm sorry that you are missing them.
"'The Lord of the Rings', on which he'd worked for over 14 years, had been refused by publishers and he had almost given up hope of ever seeing it in print."
How close...
IMHO, the world would be a worse place without this book (these books). And I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who will agree with me.
Thanks for this, Hemos. Don't know why I like this, but I really do.
Not to mention that the man was dead before anyone picked up the Silmarillion, which is an absolutely amazing piece of work, once you take the time and patience to read it. The scope of it is simply incredible. To give people who have read the LotR perspective, that entire series' synopsis resides in the last six or so pages of the Silmarillion. It is that dense in its storytelling, and the stories are far more beautiful and fantastic. He tried to get it published several times before the Hobbit was even written, and nearly gave up in frustration. If he had, we never would have had the Hobbit, nor the LotR.
Its interesting isn't it, that almost all geeks seem to be into fantasy/roleplaying and all like the same kind of stuff, star trek, tolkein etc.
I've lost count of the wasted hours I've spent on some of the old warhammer games, sometimes the line between fantasy and reality became somewhat blurred
The herbal remedies I was partaking of at the time probably did not help, but then, that also goes with being a geek.
Another thing seems to be that it is the Unix geeks above all who seem to have a higher artistic sensibility, and like tolkien more than the average NT geek, for whom the "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" seems to hold more interest. I suppose it could be because reading tolkien is very similar to the old 'colossal cave' adventures that many of us older geeks cut our teeth on.
Go North
I cannot go north
You have been killed by a Kobold
etc etc etc
I wonder if there is some kind of 'geek gene' that we have all inherited? Tolkein has so many subtle depths and hidden meanings, and thats before you even start to problematize (look it up on google) the text. Was Gandalf a homosexual? Was the hobbit an African-american ? There is just so much to take in.
Could the current popularity of the 'Harry Potter' series of books be due to the recent emergence of the 'cool geek' and 'geek chic' ?
Re:I wonder why the link ?
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2
I'm sure that this fantasy genetics is what makes so many of us trolls.
It is excellent that these recordings have been released. It will be good to hear the words of one of the greatest and most creative writers of the millenium speak to us down the generations. My sister enjoys painting scenes from the Hobbit, and hopefully these words will give her a new creative input.
Knowing more about the creator means you know more about his works. I look forward to appreciating his genius all the more.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
--
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer. There is no
Don't you think that it would far less cynical to simply wait before condemning unfinished movies for not living up to your expectations? Not all movies have ruined the books they were based upon. For example, I thought that the Princess Bride was a rather good adaptation. Mostly I think it comes down to the ethics of the producers, the dedication of the director, a faithful screenplay and a well chosen cast. From what I have seen, all of these criteria are at least plausibly being met.
For this story, none of this applies, as it is simply Tolkein reading verbatim from his own manuscript. And that recording is old... Why not try and find more of these, as they are out there?
I read LotR in the 3rd grade - I've therefore forgotten most of it long ago, and fully admit I need to read it again. And I didn't succeed in reading silmarillon, despite numerous attempts. Maybe I'll try again in 2001.
Anyway, I remember hearing that it was all analogous to WWII - i.e. most of the characters were heads of state, the biggest bad guy was Hitler... I don't remember who was who anymore... but I am interested in thoughts on this point.
-- Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
And Frodo was a sidekick to Bingo
by
devphil
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· Score: 2
What you say about Trotter is true. Also, the original main character's name was Bingo. One of his companions was named Frodo.
After many revisions, the characters stayed the same although their names were changed. Bingo became Frodo, and Frodo became either Pippin or Merry; I don't recall offhand which.
Also, Tolkien had no idea what the Palantir was. He just needed something shiny to be thrown out the window.:-) Discovering it to be one of the Stones of Seeing was as big as surprise to him as it was to Gandalf and Aragorn.
I love authors who discover and translate their worlds instead of merely creating them.
-- You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Specifically, this is the song sung by Galadriel in Farewell to Lorien, the eighth chapter of Book Two, which is the second half of The Fellowship of the Ring.
It translates as:
Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind, long years numberless as the wings of trees! The long years have passed like swift draughts of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me? For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow; and out of a grey country darkness lies on the foaming waves between us, and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya forever. Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar. Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!
Well, for starters, it is genuine literature rather than genre fiction, which is both good and bad -- literature is heavy and the very words themselves are to be savored, but that takes work, and not everyone wants to put that amount of work in. I have to admit that sometimes I simply like to veg out with a cheap paperback SF novel as well.
Secondly, the amount of detail in the LoTR is simply astounding. Entire cultures with histories and linguistically plausible languages are created. The background material is so immense that Tolkien's son makes a good living simply editing and publishing his father's notes that didn't make it into the books. Other authors simply don't do this. Scratch the paper-thin facade of the "Dune" novels, for example, and you'll find nothing behind it -- for example "Bene Gesserit" is just a cool sounding name Herbert thought up -- it doesn't *mean* anything.
My grandparents were Tolkein's neighbours in Oxford shortly after LOTR became well-known. Apparently they kept fairly much to themselves (Tolkein & wife).
In later years a Tolkein-groupie approached my grandmother asking all sorts of questions about Mrs Tolkein, her theory being that Galadriel was based on her. My grandmother had to break it to her that Mrs Tolkein was actually short, plump, and completely down to earth and unimaginitive.
Just some Tolkein trivia for yas.
Pentapod
-- All I ask is a warm bed, a kind word, and UNLIMITED POWER
Mr. and Mrs. Tolkien's personalities aside, the story of Beren and Luthien from the Silmarillion was inspired by the circumstances of Tolkien's courtship of Edith. While she may not have aged well, early pictures show her to have been a reasonably attractive young woman.
It's funny. I have all of these recordings on LP. My parents gave them too me (4 record box set 1 of poems, 1 for hobbit and FotR, 1 for 2T and RotK. 1 of Christopher Tolkien reading The Lay of Beren and Luthien) YEARS ago (like 1982). In 1999 I dug through my parents place and found them, and realized what they actually were. The next trick was to find a turntable...:-)
If you can find them, I highly recommend them.
-- Zapman
Re:What would REALLY do Tolkien justice...
by
Restil
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· Score: 2
There IS a BBC radio play of the entire LOTR trilogy. Its 13 hours long, produced sometime in the 70's.
I have no idea where to find it legitamately. I stumbled across the mp3's for it a couple years ago. Its very well done. Although obviously they have to leave out SOME parts as 13 hours is hardly enough to cover everything, they don't drop out anything of extreme importance, and the story doesn't betray the book at all.
Slashdot Mirror
These were released -- on this side of the Atlantic, at least -- a few years ago by HarperCollins, who have their own Tolkien imprint. There's a double cassette of the great man, not only reading, but singing all those elven things that I tend to skip over in the book.
If you're interested, wander over to here (which is a frame inside this)
Say to thorin 'carry me'|say to thorin 'go window'|se|e|se|e|get ring|n|d|n|go crack
Have you actually read princess bride, the example cited by the person you replied to? It is in fact an excellent book in many ways (Not the least of which is its imagination) and yet the movie was still quite good. Perhaps not your cup, but it was well-acted, well-produced, makes god use of cinematography, et cetera. The movie, of course, does not go into as much as the book does, but somehow it manages to feel complete in any case. The book is simply more so.
Or maybe it's because the story was better suited to a movie than to a book.
No argument here. Of course, IMO The Silmarillion is a stinker; It's more like an intellectual exercise than anything else to me, using the "Holy" Bible as sample material, with a bunch of Begats and whatnot. About as exciting as watching flies copulate. Your mileage may vary, of course. Anyway, I have hopes (though perhaps not high ones) for the LotR movies coming out, which at least seem to have the heart in the right place.
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To be fair I feal the same way about Terry Pratchet's Diskworld and the Harry Potter books. In both cases I feal that they author has a lot more vision than we see in print. (OK its not quite the same but I like all 3)
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Incredible scope? Incredible scope?!?! Damn, that's an understatement. It requires five pages of genealogical charts, a pronunciation guide, dozens of pages of glossary, a fold out map, an index, and footnotes every other page just to make heads or tails of it.
For comparison, I've never seen a history textbook with that much scope, nor that much detail.
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Another thing seems to be that it is the Unix geeks above all who seem to have a higher artistic sensibility, and like tolkien more than the average NT geek, for whom the "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" seems to hold more interest.
I think you're stereotyping a bit. Not all Unix geeks like Tolkein. Not all NT geeks like Adams. I'm a Terry Pratchett fan and I prefer Unix over NT as a server. I could rattle off the names of several of my coworkers that think that the whole fantasy genre is crap.
I can take or leave Tolkien. I don't like anime much. I wasn't one of the downtrodden in high school. Hemos, CmdrTaco, JonKatz and the rest of the Slashdot crew don't speak for the entire geek community, by any stretch of the imagination. Any attempts to put us in nice little easily-filed boxes is destined to failure.
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A few years later though, I decided to re-read the book. Even though Tolkien's descriptions amazed me as much as the first time, this time I didn't enjoy it so much.
Why? The plot! It simply didn't make sense. Here was a ring, that could determine the fate of the entire world. And who is assigned to go to the land of Mordor and destroy it? A moronic hobbit who has never been more than a few miles away from his house! OK, I am sort of convinced of the need for secrecy and the fact that they couldn't send an army to do the task, but a hobbit??
I mean there are the first born elves, creatures far superior to hobbits, almost immortal seasoned warriors with millenia of experience, and yet Gandalf has to give the ring to a hobbit who barely knows how to use a kitchen knife.
There are wizards like Gandalf and Saruman with the ability to defeat entire armies on their own, and yet they send a hobbit who cannot defend himself from a wild animal.
Sorry, but I think that the plot of the book is just illogical. Yes, it is a good childrens' book, but it certainly does not deserve the cult status it has gained...
Actually, there have been several, including a massive, filmed-in-70mm, 7-hour Russian version made in 1968. Yes, that's not a typo, it really is 7 hours long!
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The really remarkable thing about the Silmarillion, IMO, is that it was apparently never really finished. Tolkein continued to revise and completely rewrite sections well after the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings were published. Part of the reason that the Silmarillion is of such uneven tone and polish throughout is that some of the stories hadn't been revised since the 1930's, while others had been rewritten shortly before his death. The Silmarillion as published was really a compilation of stories in different stages of revision, and even from slightly different stages of his conception of the underlying story, edited just enough to ensure coherence, as they existed at the time of Tolkein's death.
This stuff is revealed (in inordinate detail) in the whole History of Middle Earth series, which is basically his son's editing and deciphering of his papers. If you're a hardcore Tolkein fan, or just somebody who's very interested in the creative process, it's fascinating to see how the stories developed over time. What is particularly interesting is the way in which elements that were minor and trivial in the earliest versions gradually became more important, and vice versa. It makes you wonder if such a thing could even be possible today, given the way that people tend to overwrite their old word processing files instead of leaving paper copies of their work at different stages around to be looked over by later scholars.
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Here's another ...
e-text of the Lord of the Rings. But it seems to have mutated a bit
I could rattle off the names of several of my coworkers that think that the whole fantasy genre is crap.
Of course they do, they're all sci-fi fans.
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The thing to remember when trying to read the greatest fantasy epic ever is that it wasn't even written by a fantasy author! That's right, the man who wrote Lord of the Rings didn't depend on appealing to a certain demographic in order to sell novels. The author was a professor of literature, and liked to invent phony languages. In order for a phony language to make sense, it has to have a phony cultural backdrop, and Tolkien had always been partial to the legends of elves and dwarves and hill people. Hence, he invented half a dozen races, each with their own language, and an entire history for an entire world. Since he was a linguist, not a profit-driven author, he took his time fashioning the world (decades), and it was something he enjoyed doing, not a chore to be completed. The result, a slim three volumes plus a few supplements, must seem unconvincing at best to a person accustomed to a single trilogy being the smallest unit of paperback novel creation.
Try reading "the Hobbit". It's much shorter, doesn't deal with weighty issues, and is an easy read (it is often the first full-length book that foreign students of English read).
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Um... go back and read The Hobbitt again. It says Gandalf the Grey.
Thank you.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
It's not even factually concurrent with LotR.
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the grave picture showing beren & luthien is here.
OK, I consider myself something of an expert on the LOTR, having read dozens of times, as well as "The Road To Middle Earth", the Silmarillion, and the entire history. Anyway.
... I shall have such need of it".
... in the hands of a witless halfling [into Mordor] is foolishness".
... I do not trust you ... Nay, stay your anger! I do not trust myself in this matter".
The plot is NOT illogical. There is an excellent reason why Frodo is chosen to carry the ring, and not Gandalf, Glorfindel, or one of the other much more powerful characters.
The Ring tends to corrupt anyone who owns it, and is a huge temptation for the powerful. Gandalf was offered the Ring by Frodo and refused it, since he knew it would make him far more powerful, but also that he would not be able to resist the urge to use it... "Do not tempt me!
Frodo, on the other hand, has far less innate power and thus is not so tempted. Even so, by the time he and Sam get to Mordor Frodo has reached the point where he can barely resist using the ring, and certainly cannot throw it into the Fire on his own willpower.
If you didn't get that fundamental point in the plot, no wonder you didn't enjoy the book.
Didn't you notice the discussion between Gandalf and Denethor about the ring? Denethor, who has great power, makes exactly the same complaint you do. "To send this
But Gandalf replies "Were it buried beneath the roots of [Mount] Mindolluin, still it would burn your mind away.
And that is why Frodo carried the ring. Please, read the book again - or at least the two chapters "The Shadow of the Past" and "The Council of Elrond" from the first book. All of this stuff is very carefully set up by Tolkien so the rest of the book follows logically from these premises.
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That's a co-incidence; I'm from Oxford, and when I was small my parents used to live in the house next-door to Tolkien too (albeit a few years after his death). The house still has a little plaque on it.
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If you're a hardcore Tolkein fan, or just somebody who's very interested in the creative process, it's fascinating to see how the stories developed over time. What is particularly interesting is the way in which elements that were minor and trivial in the earliest versions gradually became more important, and vice versa.
Although if you do read those books you will probably be shocked to find out that Strider was originally called "Trotter" and "Trotter" was a Hobbit and not a Numenorian. An incredible read, for the hardcore fan, but it does put a little ding in the magic...
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Hmm... I am getting mixed messages here. Kiss The Blade agrees with me that I should not try to rationalise the Lord of the Rings, whereas you say the exact opposite. In response to your points:
You may have forgotten that Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, a wizard, an elven lord, and an elven lady, (of the third generation of elves ever to live, IIRC), all REFUSED the burden of the ring.
Yes, but that does not mean anything. They refused the ring simply because they knew it too well. It was their skills that Sauron had copied in order to make it. They had the three rings and they knew their amazing strength. The one ring was more powerful than the others combined, so the elves were rightly terrified.
Frodo on the other hand was a totally clueless hobbit: the only magic he knew was Gandalf's fireworks and smoke rings. Not very scary stuff, is it? If he had any idea what powers the ring held he would have been just as terrified. The elves had the responsibility to destroy the ring as:
a. it was their skills that Sauron had copied to make the ring
b. they were they supreme race on middle-earth
c. they did not know almost anything about hobbits and their resistance to magic or the other physical wounds that you mention as no hobbit before Frodo and his friends had been in such an adventure. Placing their faith on Frodo was therefore totally unjustified.
As for Boromir: he was a weakly mortal human, I will not even compare him to elves.
In general the whole plot of the LotR just seems very "cheap". Gandalf always appears at the right moment to help the others: when he finds the two lesser hobbits (I forget their names), when goes to Gondor, when he rescues Faramir from the fire, and of course when he starts the battle at exactly the right moment. Too many coincidences for my liking. It seems to me that when Tolkien was writing this, whenever he got stuck he thought "Oh, time to bring Gandalf to save the day". Not very convincing is it?
In other words LotR appears to much like a another childrens' story of a poor little boy who lands unwillingly is a large adventure, struggles a lot, comes close to failing (to have some suspense), but manages to save the day and become a hero. Just like all those stories with the same theme (Star Wars, The Matrix, E.T) it is good for children, but it does not come close to becoming a proper mythology (like the ancient Greek legents with real heroes battling real monsters and god) despite what Tolkien's fans seem to think.
Did anyone else expect Gullum to claim "Eh, that rabbit is not dead" or perhaps "Aragorn, you are the king eh? I don't remember voting for you"
I mean seriously, Frodo and Samwise should have just brought him a shrubbery.
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http://media.salon.com/mp3s/tolkien2.mp3
It is: "The Mirror Of Galadriel"
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In later years a Tolkein-groupie approached my grandmother asking all sorts of questions about Mrs Tolkein, her theory being that Galadriel was based on her.
Tolkien imagined his wife more as Luthien, the most beautiful woman to have ever lived. Read about her in the story of Beren and Luthien in the Silmarillion. A love so strong that it defied the gods and death itself. In fact, John's and Edith's tombstones read:
EDITH MARY TOLKIEN LUTHIEN 1889-1971JOHN RONALD REUEL TOLKIEN BEREN 1892-1973
No. Sauron did not copy the Elves' skills to make the one ring. He gave the elves (Celebrimbor, actually) much of the neccessary knowlege, and he had a hand in making all the rings except the Three (Narya, Nenya, and Vilya). He was the source of the knowlege for making the rings.
But since Sauron was giving this information to Celebrimbor, he knew more than he said and thus was able to forge the One Ring to rule all the others. While he wore the One Ring, he could read the thoughts of the other ring bearers.
No. Gandalf was an expert on Hobbits. And Bilbo had been on a similar, if lesser adventure. Gandalf knew that Bilbo had amazing powers of resistance to the Ring, and knew that Frodo could resist it as well. After all, Frodo had kept the ring for about twenty years already at the start of the story without too much effect, and Gandalf had been keeping an eye on him to see how he did.
Actually, if you read the history of the LOTR you can find out a lot of what Tolkien was thinking as he designed the plot. Gandalf certainly saves the day sometimes, but what would you expect - he is the most powerful, magic-using person short of Sauron himself. But Gandalf can't be everywhere. When he saved Faramir from the funeral pyre, a consequence of it was that Eowyn and Merry had to face the chief of the Nine Riders unaided - and very nearly died as a result. Gandalf had planned to be in the battle instead of saving Faramir, and he worried aloud about the consequences.
Uh, have you actually read any Greek mythology? Do you know how little sense that stuff makes? Do greek myths have maps, a cast of thousands of characters, a continuous and consistant imaginary history spanning thousands of years... Ok enough ranting.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
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It is difficult to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. I'm not meaning that personally, but you do not have a good grasp of the material.
You are wrong. Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel all refuse the ring because they fear that they will succomb to it's power. Galadriel's temptation is the most elegant and complete description of this temptation. The Council of Elrond provides the background. Frodo knew very well the burden he was bearing, and what it was capable of. That is why he offered it to Galadriel, because he saw the good she could do with it; she saw the evil.
Sauron did not copy the skills of Gandalf, Elrond, or Galadriel. The elven rings were made by Celebrimbor (grandson of Feanor the greatest elven smith ever) and Sauron never touched them. However, since their construction was dependent upon ring lore which Sauron revealed to Celebrimbor, they were still slaves to the One Ring.
The Elves were not the supreme race on earth. You seem convinced of that and I don't understand why. Read the Silmarillion, find out why the Elves were glad for the arrival of the Edain (men) into Beleriand because they were a hardy race and able to keep watch on Morgoth (Sauron's mentor; think Emperor to Sauron's Darth Vader) in the extreme cold where the elves would not go for long. Read about how the dwarves were the only ones to withstand the onslaught of the Father of Dragons, Glaurung, while the elves fled. Find out about Turin Turambar who slew Glaurung, and Hurin his father, the greatest warrior to ever live, who defended the retreat of the elves during the 5th battle and was the last on the field that day, killing 70 trolls as he hacked through the ranks of the bodyguard of the Lord of Balrogs.
The Wise did know of Hobbits. Gandalf had taken an interest in them for many years and long studied them. The Dunedain, the survivors of the ancient kingdom of Arthedain (of which Aragorn was chief), had long guarded the Shire and kept watch on the hobbits. Bilbo had adventures, had carried the ring, and he was known and loved by elves, dwarves, and men. He had found the One Ring, saved the dwarves, helped bring about the downfall of the great dragon Smaug, and indirectly helped bring Elves, men, dwarves, and eagles together to wipe out a large portion of the goblins in that area of the world. Bilbo legitimized hobbits like no other. The Wise knew of hobbits.
Two lesser hobbits? I assume you mean Merry and Pippin. The two hobbits who raised the Ents to take action and destroy Saruman's war machine? The hobbits who became knights of two of the most powerful kingdoms of men? The hobbits who helped with the killing of the Chief of the Nazgul, who helped recover the Shire from Saruman's clutches, who sat exposed to the will of Sauron himself through the palantir and resisted as even Saruman could not?
Gandalf does not just ride in to save the day. He sacrificed himself against the Balrog, yes. If not him, Aragorn, or Boromir, or Legolas would have. He did not lead the Hourns to Helm's Deep, they came because of their hatred of orcs, they were mustered by the Ents, who were roused to fight by Treebeard, who was convinced by the two hobbits you discounted. Gandalf was not a deux ex machina, as you would have him be. His appearances and arrival make good sense. Did he save the hobbits from Old Man Willow? The Barrow Wights? Bree? Weathertop? Shelob's Lair? Cirith Ungol? No, he did not. Did he seize an opportunity to direct the eagles to the rescue of Frodo and Sam once the ring had been destroyed? Yes, he is intelligent and knew what was happening.
The Lord of the Rings is not a children's story in the sense that you mean it. It is high fantasy, epic, dark, glorious, and real. Many people hold that themes get repeated, and the same is true for LotR. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon literature and he drew upon many stories, names, legends, etc to create his work. In fact, he did such a good job, that Tolkien's very complete fantasy world helps a modern reader better understand such works as Beawulf, King Arthur, and the Ring Cycle. It can however, be enjoyed by children and adults.
Boromir was not a weak human. In fact, he is a typical man. Strong, capable, and frustrated that he can not exercise his will (which in his heart he believes to be pure) for the good of everyone. He was strong in that he realized his errors and short comings. Boromir is everyman in a very real way.
There are very good reasons why the Lord of the Rings is a book/books that appears at the top of every most influential books list. I'm sorry that you are missing them.
How close...
IMHO, the world would be a worse place without this book (these books). And I'm sure there are plenty of others out there who will agree with me.
Thanks for this, Hemos. Don't know why I like this, but I really do.
JJ
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Thank you.
Its interesting isn't it, that almost all geeks seem to be into fantasy/roleplaying and all like the same kind of stuff, star trek, tolkein etc.
I've lost count of the wasted hours I've spent on some of the old warhammer games, sometimes the line between fantasy and reality became somewhat blurred
The herbal remedies I was partaking of at the time probably did not help, but then, that also goes with being a geek.
Another thing seems to be that it is the Unix geeks above all who seem to have a higher artistic sensibility, and like tolkien more than the average NT geek, for whom the "hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" seems to hold more interest.
I suppose it could be because reading tolkien is very similar to the old 'colossal cave' adventures that many of us older geeks cut our teeth on.
Go North
I cannot go north
You have been killed by a Kobold
etc etc etc
I wonder if there is some kind of 'geek gene' that we have all inherited? Tolkein has so many subtle depths and hidden meanings, and thats before you even start to problematize (look it up on google) the text.
Was Gandalf a homosexual? Was the hobbit an African-american ? There is just so much to take in.
Could the current popularity of the 'Harry Potter' series of books be due to the recent emergence of the 'cool geek' and 'geek chic' ?
Knowing more about the creator means you know more about his works. I look forward to appreciating his genius all the more.
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There is no
Don't you think that it would far less cynical to simply wait before condemning unfinished movies for not living up to your expectations? Not all movies have ruined the books they were based upon. For example, I thought that the Princess Bride was a rather good adaptation. Mostly I think it comes down to the ethics of the producers, the dedication of the director, a faithful screenplay and a well chosen cast. From what I have seen, all of these criteria are at least plausibly being met.
For this story, none of this applies, as it is simply Tolkein reading verbatim from his own manuscript. And that recording is old... Why not try and find more of these, as they are out there?
I read LotR in the 3rd grade - I've therefore forgotten most of it long ago, and fully admit I need to read it again. And I didn't succeed in reading silmarillon, despite numerous attempts. Maybe I'll try again in 2001.
Anyway, I remember hearing that it was all analogous to WWII - i.e. most of the characters were heads of state, the biggest bad guy was Hitler... I don't remember who was who anymore... but I am interested in thoughts on this point.
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What you say about Trotter is true. Also, the original main character's name was Bingo. One of his companions was named Frodo.
After many revisions, the characters stayed the same although their names were changed. Bingo became Frodo, and Frodo became either Pippin or Merry; I don't recall offhand which.
Also, Tolkien had no idea what the Palantir was. He just needed something shiny to be thrown out the window. :-) Discovering it to be one of the Stones of Seeing was as big as surprise to him as it was to Gandalf and Aragorn.
I love authors who discover and translate their worlds instead of merely creating them.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Specifically, this is the song sung by Galadriel in Farewell to Lorien, the eighth chapter of Book Two, which is the second half of The Fellowship of the Ring.
It translates as:
Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind, long years numberless as the wings of trees! The long years have passed like swift draughts of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me? For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow; and out of a grey country darkness lies on the foaming waves between us, and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya forever. Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar. Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!
KdL
Well, for starters, it is genuine literature rather than genre fiction, which is both good and bad -- literature is heavy and the very words themselves are to be savored, but that takes work, and not everyone wants to put that amount of work in. I have to admit that sometimes I simply like to veg out with a cheap paperback SF novel as well.
Secondly, the amount of detail in the LoTR is simply astounding. Entire cultures with histories and linguistically plausible languages are created. The background material is so immense that Tolkien's son makes a good living simply editing and publishing his father's notes that didn't make it into the books. Other authors simply don't do this. Scratch the paper-thin facade of the "Dune" novels, for example, and you'll find nothing behind it -- for example "Bene Gesserit" is just a cool sounding name Herbert thought up -- it doesn't *mean* anything.
My grandparents were Tolkein's neighbours in Oxford shortly after LOTR became well-known. Apparently they kept fairly much to themselves (Tolkein & wife).
In later years a Tolkein-groupie approached my grandmother asking all sorts of questions about Mrs Tolkein, her theory being that Galadriel was based on her. My grandmother had to break it to her that Mrs Tolkein was actually short, plump, and completely down to earth and unimaginitive.
Just some Tolkein trivia for yas.
Pentapod
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It's funny. I have all of these recordings on LP. My parents gave them too me (4 record box set 1 of poems, 1 for hobbit and FotR, 1 for 2T and RotK. 1 of Christopher Tolkien reading The Lay of Beren and Luthien) YEARS ago (like 1982). In 1999 I dug through my parents place and found them, and realized what they actually were. The next trick was to find a turntable... :-)
If you can find them, I highly recommend them.
Zapman
There IS a BBC radio play of the entire LOTR trilogy. Its 13 hours long, produced sometime in the 70's.
I have no idea where to find it legitamately. I stumbled across the mp3's for it a couple years ago. Its very well done. Although obviously they have to leave out SOME parts as 13 hours is hardly enough to cover everything, they don't drop out anything of extreme importance, and the story doesn't betray the book at all.
-Restil
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That Tolkein's Gollum sounds a lot like Yoda. (OK... that should be the other way around...)
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