Slashdot Mirror
CS vs CIS
falco writes "I'm just about to enter my softmore year in computer science and I have begun to question myself about my decision to become a computer scientist. I have been told by alot of graduates that CIS and CS majors are being hired for the same job for the same money. Is this true? Can anyone clear up any misconceptions and truths about this issue? If the previous is false, what are the differences in jobs that a CS major would receive compared to a CIS major? As I'm sure many of you know computer science is more difficult by a factor of 10. I've been questioning whether it's worth wracking my brain with all the math in the CS major. Help and advice would be appreciated."
CS people get all the math. Calc's and all.
CIS people get mixed with Business and Accounting and Marketing and other stuff. At least I did.
CIS people can generally take all the software engineering stuff that CS people get and can sometimes get into the architecture classes as well.
I had no trouble getting hired with a CIS degree. I got a good understanding of business stuff like HR management and other work most CS people never see until the real world hits em in the face.
Then again my math skills are less developed so you need to speak to an advisor most likely to get the best info...
Either path is a good one.
I was a computer science major at one time and I stopped because I knew that my education would be so focused I wouldn't get any of the mind-expansion that you'd normally get with a liberal arts degree. At my school the number of lib arts credits needed was something on the order of four courses, no foreign language and all the engineering students I knew did nothing but bitch about lib arts classes and spend all the rest of their time wading through non-linear algebra.
When I look back 10 years to when I was in college, most of what I got out of it was intangible but the bits that have stuck with me more than anything else are the courses that actually broadened my horizons. None of them were engineering or math courses. I'd suggest that if you really want an education, get a liberal arts education. Engineering courses are about how to do a specific job so you can get that job, the curriculum has nothing to do with expanding your mind.
Speaking from personal experience, I graduated from University with a degree in Physics, and within two weeks of starting to look for a job, had got one as a programmer with a web agency.
;-) ), plus you necessarily develop problem solving abilities. In our course at least, there was also a compulsory computing laboratory in the first two years, and a couple of other computing-related courses (which all teach basic programming conecpts, plus enough of a language that you can apply them).
:-) )
That was just over 18 months ago, and in that time I've been promoted twice and have seen my salary more than double (and it didn't start off too badly, considering I had no relevant qualifications and very little experience).
Physics has a very strong Mathematical aspect, without being totally incomprehensible to us mere mortals (
Whatever you do decide to do, however, do it because you enjoy it, not because you hope that it'll take you into a career that pays shed-loads. It's better to be happy and comfortable, than rich and miserable (or so I'm told; I'm certainly not rich enough to know
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
ok right now cs and cis people are being hired for the same money, and that is because the market hasn't yet reached its satuation level. many people (myself included) think that the economy in its current state is inflated, and it's due for a down turn.
when the down turn, and possibly a recession, happens the saturation level for the market will decrease. at this point layoffs will occur. now do you think they are going to layoff the people with more education?
the computer science education isn't just more math-they are teaching you how to solve problems logically. the math is a tool. in your job you will be posed with many problems, and your education should prepare you to solve them.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
I think it depends on the school that is being attended. Some schools are better.
I have found that CIS degrees tend to be more cookie cutter oriented. They tend to teach how to do the job on a particular system with one, and maybe more, tools. CIS tends to be lacking in real hardcore programming and problem solving. CIS degrees tend to focus on the system and how use/run it.
A CS oriented degree tends to be more abstract. When it is done abstract, you can migrate from tool to tool and langauge to language with little difficulties. CS tends to develope better logical thinking and problem solving (because of all the math).
I would personally recomend aiming towards the CS degree. It prove better for you in the long run. I went to a liberal arts school and got my CS/Mathematics degree, and I have found I have been able to solve problems quicker than the poeple who didn't. You can always take some CIS courses.
In the end, what matters is what you can prove you can do. Work on Open Source projects to get your name out there, and get internships. You want to start building examples of what you can do to fill your resume.
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
You say you have heard from others that you should get the CIS degree, because they say you can get the same job? The people who told you this probably have CIS degrees. I say this because someone with a CS degree wouldn't likely agree.
Although you can get the same jobs - I work with programmers who got business degrees - you will never be viewed the same way as those with a CS degree. You will have a harder time getting a particular job, especially if you compete with those who have an Engineering degree. The difference in degrees can certainly be made up through experience, but that basically places you a year or more behind where you would be if you had a CS degree.
Another major issue, something many of us value above money, is peer respect. You will have a much harder time earning the respect of your peers if you have the lesser degree. When I was in Engineering college, we refered to the business CIS people as "dropouts". In many cases, this was true - lots of them had been in Engineering at first. The CS degree is harder for a reason. Partly, because you learn more, but also, it tests your mettle, and your future coworkers will think more of you if you make it through the tougher program. Furthermore, it shows that you are truly interested in the knowledge, and that will definitely count among others who feel that way.
A discussion similiar to this already occured on kuro5hin, link here. The outcome of the discussion, revealed during a discussion of possible New Year's resolutions, was that the kid would stick with a CS degree and try hella freaking hard to do it despite the math and hardship, etc. His reasoning escapes me though...
I'm biased being a CS major. I really do get my jollies from reading obscure theory and coding useless stuff. CS = theory, CIS = practical. I figure if you know the theory, you'll be able to do the practical, you'll just have to spend that little extra time poring over manuals, HOWTOs, newsgroups, etc.
--
Peace,
Lord Omlette
ICQ# 77863057
[o]_O
Been in college two years, can't spell the word "sophomore"? Do we really want this kid to enter the workforce? :)
(It's a joke.)
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
I graduated Binghamton (a State Univeristy of New York school) in 96 with a BS in Computer Science and Information Systems. Computer Science Math was a seperate major and focused almost solely on Math. CSIS was heavier on the CS than the IS, but both were there. They actually phased out the CSMath major that year, since enrollment was down, and since the industry had been changing alot.
Most of the CS stuff I learned at Binghamton hasn't been of any use to me in the real world. I've never needed to look back to my logic design courses or circuit stuff. Some of the IS stuff has been handy, like my database courses. Even some of the math stuff has served me well... like statistics.
As far as what you should end up in... it kinda depends on what you want to do... and what is focused on in each degree at your school. If you're planning on going into web development or programming of some sort... as long as the CIS track has enough of that sort of thing (or enough electives to fit em in) go with that. If you want to go into hardware.... or teaching... or if your school only focuses on programming in the CS major... go with that.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Sure, you're not likely to use the math (or for that matter much from your CS degree!) directly, but a CS degree does nonethless teach you a valuable structured way of thinking, and encourage a disciplined approach. Certainly, the worst programmers - in terms of quality/maintainability of code - I've seen have been those without a CS background.
Regardless of it's "practical" utility, though, a CS degree is going to be preferentially viewed by many screening resumes (incl. myself when I was in that role), and I think it's also resonable to say that if a CS degree (math included) is too tough for you, then it's an indication that you don't have the logical thought capabilities that you'll need to rely on as a programmer.
I have a CS degree (plus a number of EE and CompE hardware classes and most of the coursework for a PhD in CS).
In my paid work, I rarely use any of my coursework. Most of what I do could be done by any smart person with no degree at all. I work in sort of a traditional IS role, building stuff for the business world. Boring at times, but it pays the bills.
Where would I get good use of a CS degree? I see two places: heavy software engineering methodology and heavy math. I did heavy math when I did cardiac MRI software at Siemens. I could do the same somewhere else doing machine learning stuff, 3D graphics, etc. Or I could go to a big company that follows formal SE methodologies.
I work with some people with CIS/MIS degrees. They mainly stick to traditional IS stuff on IBM boxes. Some write code, some do business analysis crud.
I think it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to live in a cube at a big company, CIS or MIS will be fine. CS would work there too, but if you learn the right stuff you should have the option to go do something more exciting. (A friend of mine from college, Greg Stelmack, did this. He went from boring corporate stuff to working on games at Red Storm. It would have been hard to do this without a good math background.)
I'm going to agree and disagree with this.
While a lot of CS degrees do teach just programming languages and things that are going to be gone in a few years, there are CS degrees that will teach the fundamentals behind CS (which includes the math). If you learn those basics of CS (like the design of a programming language, the general structure of computer design, etc.), you will be able to learn whatever language is useful that day. And I bet that you would learn it faster than a CIS.
I agree that Mathematics is important. It teaches you how to think logically. I used to program in HS and it took me awhile to work through the best implementation or best way to solve this little bug. Now, with a Math degree, those problems are easier! I mean, after all, CS IS MATH!
I'll never forget what a very presitigous CS professor at CMU told me. I was going there to interview him about what CS is about. The first thing he told me is that Computer Science has NOTHING to do with computers. It is math. It is the study of what can be computed. Whether you use your PIII or rocks and toilet paper. The answer will come out the same.
Check out Althea for a stable IMAP email client for X. Now with SSL!
I work as an intern with a computing company, and when I was decided whether to go the cs or cis/mis path, I asked them which they prefered. I was told that, much to my amazement, they prefered cs for both management and development, because they wanted people with programming experience to lead their programmers, so they had a common link. Just my input on the topic.
How Jaded Are You?
If you are only in school to get a job I question whether you should be in school at all. School is to expand your mind. It also lets you get a job.
So the question IMO shouldn't be whether you get paid more for a CS degree vs a CIS degree it should be do you want to learn the things you get from a CS degree.
No - just that which degree you have (CS vs. CIS vs. ECE) doesn't neccesarily mean a lot to a prospective employer. The fact that you finished school in a technical field related to computers is often enough to get you into an interview.
Depends on what questions you ask, really. The ideal questions, and the ones we try to ask, are the ones that allow a person to demonstrate their knowlege of programming, data structures, and their problem solving skills. Asking questions like "What's a string?" tend to get you an entirely different class of answers than "How would you have implemneted cfront?" Agreed... that's what earns them the interview. At that point, they need to demonstrate that they really have learned that certain amount. I have interviewed people who may have been unsung geniuses, but when asked the simplest questions, were unable to explain basic concepts like stacks or linked lists. Either they were unable to function under the slightest amount of pressure, or they were unable to communicate effectively, or they simply didn't understand the concepts. Any one of those, in my mind, is a good enough reason to give someone a thumbs down.Like what? Please explain. I've yet to encounter anything that cannot be taught or learned on the job, or picked up "on the side" while working.
Pardon me - your arrogance is showing. The first people to write databases did figure them out on the job. There are developers in all corners of the globe who somehow manage to limp along and produce some pretty damn good software without the benefit of a CS degree, because they're willing to learn on the job, outside of school. A CS degree is a good foundation for continuing to learn; but do not think for a moment that lack of a degree neccesarily indicates lack of knowledge."Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Everything else being equal, whichever candidate was best able to answer the technical interview questions.
For someone fresh out of college, a degree is just a foot in the door. There is no way to judge a person's qualifications soley based on whether they were a CS/CIS major. Without any other siginficant work experience, either degree is generally good enough to get you in the door for an interview. (If this isn't the case, then the company probably just isn't interested in hiring a recent graduate, regardless of what their major was.)
I've interviewed new CS grads who seemed to have learned absolutely nothing from fours years of CS classes, and recent CIS and ECE graduates that were extremely competent. Their degrees had little to do with what they actually learned in school. Yah, a CS major is probably going to know more about computer science and sofware development than a CIS major. Differences in schools, cirriculums, electives and in-school work experiences can level things out pretty quickly, though, to the point where any company that makes a decision about a recent grad based solely on whether they have a CS or CIS degree is shooting themselves in the foot.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Sure the calculus stuff may be a pain in the ass, but do you think that being a professional programmer is always a joy-ride?
If you can't make it through a CS degree, then I'd question if you've really got what it takes to be a programmer unless you're just shooting to do business programming.
Remember also that you're going to be competing for jobs with others who will have CS degrees. Who would YOU pick for a programming job - resume A with the CIS degree, or resume B with the CS degree?
Once you've got 4-5yrs experience the college degree fades in importance, but for a first job IMO a CIS degree would definitely put you at a competetive disadvantage.
And I've learned a lot about the differences between the degrees. Me and my pal are the only CS majors working for this software company. Here's what we deal with daily.
Our company seems to think that memory leaks are ok, because "they'll be running windows and they will have to reboot every couple days anyways, plus they should have 3 GB ram in the server anyways"
It's ok to hit the database every nanosecond and not do any caching. They need to have a heafty machine running the DB anyways, and why are the complaining that our software is slow? It run's fine here when we have 3 users connected at the same time.
I have fought and fought to teach them what proper OO design is, and to seperate business logic code from the GUI. Not to mention that the overall design of our software is so coupled that breaking it out into a web based application will be almost impossible, but that remains to be the long term plan.
Here's the difference. CS is mostly oriented on design and theory, not coding. Anyone can learn to code, all you have to do is understand a syntax. CS is the study of solving problems, while MIS steers more towards business management and system administration (which isn't bad). However, there is a big difference between the two, and some companies don't realize this. That's why people say you can get the same job. I believe though that this will change as more and more people become more and more knowledgable about computers and how they work.
Well, just my 2 cents.
We wouldn't even look at a "CIS" or "MIS" resume. Not enough general poblem solving skills. You shouldn't think of your education as a trade school; any programming language or OS you learn about today would not be used 10 years from now.
(When I was in college, 100 years ago, they were teaching programming courses using IBM 370 Assembly language and PL/I!)
If all you study are programming languages that are likely to be unheard of in a few years, you're wasting your time. Instead, learn Mathematics well. Then you'll be prepared for anything.
If you must get a "computer" degree, certainly go for CS, which is likely to take you to at least Differential Equations. Also be sure to take a lot of music, art, history, and economics courses! All of those have come in very handy when trying to apply my knowledge to different disciplines.
...drop out of college and go to tech-school.
There are many reasons to prefer CS to CIS.
1) You learn more, much of it useful (no, really). If you want to end up programming, you NEED the stuff (both facts and the way of thinking) a CS degree teaches.
2) You'll prove that you can handle what a CS degree requires--to employers and to yourself.
3) A CIS degree's validity will fade rapidly. A CS degree is like a physics degree--you are learning fundamentals of nature, those things don't change.
That's not to say that you should force yourself through a CS program. If you can't handle it or don't care--don't do it! But if what you want is to Make Money Fast On That Internet Thing, you are wasting your time and money taking a CIS degree at a 4 year, liberal arts college. Just go down to DeVry and take VB and a few accounting classes and you'll be all set.
--
MailOne
Non-meta-modded "Overrated" mods are killing Slashdot
(Hey Ryan! Here's your proof!)