Slashdot Mirror
More Silliness Over Patents: NetZero Sues Juno
def con Cyber writes: "Is that idea so obvious it shouldn't be patentable? This is an interesting story where NetZero is suing Juno over its ability to "pop up external advertising windows". " Check out the update (Thanks to Dan Kaminksy) regarding the suit that Juno had filed against NetZero to start this whole thing off.
How are those stock options owrking out for ya?
That lame paycheck isn't looking so good anymore huh?
MS has already ruined slashdot because a herd of cats will always be crushed by a organized and well funded attack by paid professional posters with a master plan. What MS did to slashdot will go in the annals of history as the most succesful attack on a community since the indians were wiped out with smallpox infected blankets. Like the earliest proponents of biological warfare MS knows that poison and disease are best spread as useful items and infiltrated into a society.
Actually, I think the wording is more like, "someone of ordinary skill in the art." But you're right, you probably won't find anyone like that working in the patent office.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
The patent says: "pop up windows, ouside the browser" All the web sites pop ads via the browser, not seperate software like the various ad banners the free ISP's use.
kashani
- Why is the ninja... so deadly?
In the '20's, the Telephone Co. claimed the exclusive rights, under certain patents and patent-licensing agreements, to sell radio time and operate "toll" stations. This provision, the Telephone Co. insisted gave it the exclusive right to sell time over a "toll" station. The assertion of these rights was a substantial factor in giving it a position of leadership during the early days of broadcasting.
That's right - once upon a time, selling radio time to advertisers was an exclusive, patented right owned by the Telco!
Not only that (and this relates to the slow deployment of DSL by CLEC's), the phone company owned the lines used to build a broadcasting network. RCA, who wanted to build a competing network, was not allowed to use phone lines - they had to use lower quality telegraph lines for audio feed. This, plus the inability to develope the business side by its being prevented from selling commercial time to advertisers, the vigorous competition which RCA might have offered was hampered.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
"What's to keep somebody from setting up an autodialer with 32 or so modems and tying up every one of their lines?"
:)
other than the need for 32 phone lines, modems, and serial ports to connect them to? nothing, i guess.
"Anybody have any experience with how busy their modem bank is?"
i believe they have a fairly large modem pool; i've used their tacoma dialup 4 or 5 times, and it was only busy once. so i just used the other tacoma number, and got on immidiately.
i guess they block port 25 when you connect as "guest" now, because of spammers abusing the service. but i haven't heard about any other abuses of their service.
--
if you have to use a dial-up, use NoCharge. you can register for an account for free, or just login as "guest" with a password of "password".
they have dialups for washington, oregon, new york, and puerto rico, and are planning on nationwide access Real Soon Now(tm). here's the list.
they charge for tech support, which is how they hope to make a profit. dunno how long they'll last, but it's decent while it's around.
--
Imagine if everybody decides their PCs are now "good enough..."
:-)
M$ would have to get out of the "'shirk'wrap" business and into something that's long-term and sustainable. It'll be "Back-side to the Future"
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
I seem to remember that prodigy had a graphical interface when they first came out, years and years ago...
;) I'll bet they did a lot of stuff that people are claiming patents for.
Didn't that interface have "pop-up" ads? Anyone remember?
Say, anyone remember HBBS for the Apple II? just thought I'd throw that out there
W
-------------------
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Note, these days almost any website that provides a service is considered an ISP (at least in DMCA terms). This includes all the free-webpage sites like Xoom and Geocities -- er, I mean NBCi and Yahoo... sigh... I miss good ol' Xoom.
__________________________________________________ ___
rooooar
I just gave them more to think about. I told them that I'm about to install NetZero for some relatives but now have to reconsider. I want to hear what they have to say to counteract anti-NZ word of mouth.
Has anyone else noticed that pop-up ads appear to be becoming mainstream? At first it was just geocities, and I'd always cringe when I followed a link there (although nowadays they're pretty unobtrusive), but very recently mainstream sites like abcnews.com are starting to carry pop-up ads, and it annoys me to the extent I'm starting to avoid them.
How about instead of polluting screen real estate for a free ISP, how about customers donate spare CPU cycles instead? Do a SETI-like project for coroprations on/offline and have big corps buy lots of cpu cycles which makes everyone happy.
I've noticed within the last month pretty much EVERY website is doing pop-up ads now. Whether it's porn sites or non-porn sites, don't be surprised if your favorite big corporate website such as CNN(yahoo's probably next) are popping up not one but TWO windows.
Ugh. http://www.comp-u-geek.net is the worst.
I mean popping up additional windows is built into javascript, whatever their content. In the same way cookies were meant to store information on the clientside to faciliate informationgathering later (one click patent).
I mean this is like patenting doing 'xy' in a do loop in fortan because 'we did it first in a do loop'. Or like patenting the display of ads in graphical form (as gif) on a web-browser. The functionality to do just that (not specifically with ads but with anything) was provided by the developpers of javascript/html. The functionality of popping up additional windows was probably even developped with ads in mind.
If they get that patent someone should go and patent the idea of using gifs/etc. for advertising altogether, to show just how ridiculous it all is. As an afterthought: i hope they get this patent, i hate that popping up advertisement windows anyway (so much, i almost always switch off javascript)
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
I don't know. Maybe Digital Convergence will turn around and sue NetZero for that business model?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Didn't Prodigy have that back in 1985?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
In the end, this will not keep NetZero out of the bankruptcy courts. Perhaps some Linux millionaire could pick up the patents cheap after bankruptcy, just to prevent anyone else from using this obnoxious business model?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
I sense the need for a new moderation "flavor":
Unless the above was an unwitting recasting of an unforgettable Simpsons Halloween sequence.
"Stupid bug! You go squish now!"
NetZero is simply striking back against Juno for a similar lawsuit that Juno filed against them. In other words, they were tired of standing there letting Juno take potshots and they fired back. Hopefully a court will rule one of the patents unenforceable, thus having the same effect on the other. If not, NetZero wants some insurance to keep the playing field level. Sure, it's cheap, but Juno was the one that started playing dirty in the first place.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I watched some of the NetZero ads during South Park last night....
I love the mock "testifying" before congress that the Internet should be free... and that they actually have "Defenders of the Free World" trademarked... "defenders of our left nut" is more appropriate for them.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
I'm wondering about ad-bars like AllAdvantage, and that sort of thing... wouldn't that be prior art as well?
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
Netzero is a free isp (for those of you who didn't know) and while you are using their dialup service a window opens up onscreen and stays on top until you disconnect. This window is not a browser window it doesn't popup from a webpage. It's an application window. And it displays rotating ads chosen by the ISP (netzero in this case) no matter what web(porn)site you are browsing.
Are YOU listed?
It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?
No! Of course not. The man on the street is a moron. I've met him. Lots of times.
If it has to be obvious to the man on the street, then I should be able to patent using two web browser windows at the same time to look at two different sites. The man on the street wouldn't know you could do this.
Or, I could patent looking at pornography on the internet. OK, so the man on the street would know you could do this.
Most patents are technical. You need a technical audience to evaluate them.
Riiiiight... nothing like charging some of your customers $9.95 a month to become the dominant force in the free ISP game.
It would seem to me that the arbiter of that decision should be the average man in the street. Although it such matters may seem obvious to the /. community, they is by no means obvious to the common man. Isn't that what really matters?
Furthermore, another quibble I have is with the allegations that Amazon et al are behaving in a morally incorrect manner by seeking to get these patents granted. If there is a fault, that fault is with the patent office, not with companies that are merely trying to maximise their revenue stream. If I were a shareholder at Amazon, I would be extremely annoyed if Amazon refused to seek these patents.
So I plead with you: blame the government and the patent office, because in this matter any faults are theirs, and theirs alone.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
> I don't understand how NetZero can even
> patent that concept since they didn't
> even come up with it.
Did Amazon.com come up with one click shopping? They have the patent for it!
You know, I didn't invent the Sun, but I bet I can patent it. Then I can demand royalties from every beach, every sunblock maker, and blackmail NASA into sending me up in the space shuttle so they don't have to pay me back royalties on all those solar cells they use ;)
Then I'll patent stars, and sue the RIAA for royalties from every song they've published that refers to stars.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Even if neither of them invented the pop-up ad they should be sued for using the annoying things, sheesh! Mental Anguish, Pain and Suffering due to eye-strain, Loss of Income by wasting my time...
Well, wait, I shouldn't complain since I refuse to visit sites that use pop-ups, maybe it should just be a class action suit.
"When people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'." -Bakunin
What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it. Done and over with, oh well. But seriously, what about places like Geocities and Tripod and such. They provide a free service with pop up advertisements. Does that mean NetZero will attack those as well?
Was it an African Swallow, or a European Swallow?
Clinton was president for EIGHT YEARS! Why didn't he do something?
Cause he would have to get Congress to actually make a law to undo the damage they already did. Not bloody likely. He probably didn't pay much attention to the patent issue really. If the political will isn't there, and the people aren't bitching at you on a fairly large scale, it's not gonna get done.
Now, it's true that the Republicans DID turn the PTO into a profit center. They cut it off and told it that it had to earn its own bread. That was moronic. The patent office shouldn't be encouraged to grant patents in order to ensure its own solvency. It's supposed to grant those patents that are deserving and no more. That should require that it hire competent examiners and do thorough research. That costs money. That's the price of our patent system. Unfortunately, the PTO does not hire competent examiners (or at least none with the skills required to evaluate software-related patents), does not do thorough research before granting a patent, and is constantly trying to expand the realm of what can be patented (which is certainly not their role). All the Republicans did was create a mess of conflicts of interest, that happen to make it easy to get a patent on any stupid software trick you care to name.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Maybe I am misunderstanding something...
I wonder what Microsoft would think about when someone else patents what boilds down to a simple set of calls to their OS?
I think it was a "feature" or a "bug" that was introduced somewhere by Netscape anyways to allow pop-ups to be called by a web page anyways, how different is that?
I haven't been much of a defender or a detractor of the patent system, I now think it definitely needs an overhaul.
You are incorrect-ish.
If Netzero wins, they'll be the only ones that will be able to pop up adds for free. They'll likely licence the idea (yes, that's ridiculous). End result: Netzero makes a lot of money and companys will have to make bigger ads to pay for the ability to display them.
I wonder what Microsoft would think about when someone else patents what boilds down to a simple set of calls to their OS?
If I were to make a time machine and used a Black & Decker toaster oven at the core of it, I should be able to patent this time machine even though only some or possibly none of the raw materials were actually manufactured by me, Black & Decker should have no control over my time machine (in the same way that the company that supplies steel to Black & Decker should have no control over the items that their steel is used to make). Similarly, if I use calls to Microsoft's OS in a new and innovative way, Microsoft was just the supplier of the raw materials (figuratively speaking, of course) for my software and shouldn't have any special rights over it.
I'm betting that NetZero is just trying to save thier ass. As the article points out, both company's stock dropped dramatically. This is NetZero's chance to destroy Juno. However, both sides will be hurt in legal costs. Since this patent is invalidated because of previous art (just look at Tripod) the court case will probably be dropped, but only after some hefty legal fees. Will they die? I don't know, but I do know that this case isn't worth even having a story. Let them hit eachother as it sure as heck wont matter in the long run.
In the wake of their announcement that they will be chargine $9.95 to users who use more than 40 hours a month, it would seem that they are doing everything they can to increase their revenues and become the dominant force in the free isp game.
Then again, as they have it in their budget to launch a television advertising campaign, perhaps they are not as close to going broke as some of the other free isps which now lie dead are...
Ibag
This is just as silly as that british company suing Prodigy for the use of hyperlinks, claiming that they invented it, even though prior art is demonstrated on video going back into the 60s (I think)
Someone needs to beat this guys with a clue by four. There are to many lawyers with to much time on their hands.
Bright Idea:
Everyone who wants to be a corporate lawyer has to be sterilized first.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Well Microsoft is an ISP (MSN). Does that mean they can't use pop up ads in their software products? Because like someone said earlier, Windows has ads when you install it.
And what about AOL? They've been doing pop up ads (outside of a browser) with their software far longer than NetZero has.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. --Aristotle
"What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it. According to the article, they patented the technology for an ISP to display a popup ad, the popups you see all over the place are from websites and (i hope) not from your ISP."
Guess they didn't have enough balls to sue AOL, the king of the annoying ISP log-on pop up ads.
Not to mention the fact that AOL's been doing this at least 10 years before NetZero ever came into existance. Why is it that that USPTO grants these things without ANY effort at verifying their claims? What, do they take their word for it? If that's the case I think I'll patent the wheel.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
"to NetZero's zCast technology that allows an ISP to display an advertising pop-up window"
Note, it ONLY says the patent is for ISP's. That leaves all your non-isps on the web to pop up any banners they want.
According to this times of india story and Cnet story, June sued Netzeo in summer over the advertisments that are displayed when the customer is offline.
Trust the source!
You really have to hand it to the management of the USPO, since Bush Senior, or was it under Reagan, turned the patent office into a "profit center" they are just shoving patents out the door.
Prior art? Never heard of it!
Research? I doan even reed da formz!
Boss says I got a quota to make. I don't care if I have to patent breathing. My Christmass bonus is based on how many I get out the door so hand me my rubber stamp and don't get betwen me and the ink pad.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
What about all the other pop up ads that you see all over the place? I don't understand how NetZero can even patent that concept since they didn't even come up with it.
According to the article, they patented the technology for an ISP to display a popup ad, the popups you see all over the place are from websites and (i hope) not from your ISP.
This has the unavoidable effect of screwing over the less with-it customers of NetZero, who get caught in the "I upgraded to 3.1, but it doesn't work, and I can't go back to 3.0, so what do I do?" They used to tell people to re-install Bindows... until they realized that most people will be completely up the creek, without disks to reinstall their appz.
So now they just pass the buck and pretend there is not problem. Which is hard when you a) can't get a net connection anymore, b) don't have any alternate connection, and c) don't have the original software on disk. And they don't want to send out thousands of CDs to people, either.
I'm just glad I don't have to do phone support for these boneheads.
If Netzero wins, no one but Netzero will be able to pop up adds.
Horay! Now I no longer need junkbuster!