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Where Should Company Loyalty End?
An Anonymous CTO asks: "Currently, I work for a small Internet consulting company. We've been trying to find funding for the past year or so, but to no avail, and future prospects are quite dim, despite a recent drastic change in our approach. Morale is at an all time low, with near-incompetent management decisions having effectively worn down even the most dedicated of us. My position is pivotal, though, and even though the upper crust is pretty much a joke, my coworkers are quite talented, which is the crux of the matter -- if I bail ship, the company will likely either fold or have to transform itself immensely, quite probably at the cost of the jobs of my friends. And yet, I have two upcoming job offers that are both well paying and good career moves, and offers don't last forever. Should I stick things out, or should I bail and move on? When it comes to the workplace, where do loyalties end and responsibilities to oneself begin?"
That said, their loyalty to their employees is quite another question. That is more to do with _how_ they handle things. So the resulting combinations could be:
I've worked for pretty much all of the above. In some cases I've seen combinations- I worked at a pizza joint when I was younger that contained the extremes- main management was competent and loyal, but at times they had assistant managers who were worse, including one who was incompetent _and_ disloyal (and as a result continually paranoid). I've worked with semicompetent and loyal, and semicompetent and disloyal. The former was when a business was taking on too much- I walked and remained on good terms with the people- the latter was when I bailed out a business by putting a lot of work in, and they ended up replicating the same situation that'd got them in trouble before, setting up one person to entirely depend on and cutting loose all the loyal people who had bailed them out. In that case I walked and keep an element of reserve- waiting for if I need to bail them out again, only my prices have gone up
The spectrum across those two variables should tell you everything you need to know :)
__________________________________________________ ___
rooooar
Grammar was correct as well. Could not of been Taco.
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Would you like a Python based alternative to PHP/ASP/JSP?
Warn the good folks there that you're going to bail -- then do it. Make sure you get their email addresses, and tell them that you'd like to keep them in mind when you land your next job.
Loyalty is a good thing. It's part of who you are. It's part of a strong code of ethics. And sine it's part of the ethics, you know when unethical behaviour by management (sinking the company) perfectly justifies ethical behaviour by you (e.g., bailing, and now!).
I see companies all the the time starting programs to make work more social. Here this:
Work is not a place to make friends.
It may happen that you'll make friends with coworkers, and that's nice, but should not be expected. Work is not a social club. If you don't believe me, spend half of tomorrow playing board games with your 'friends' and see how long it is before your boss tells you the same thing.
If these people are friends, they'll be your friends after you work elsewhere. If the only thing making them friends is the coincidence that you are forced together by a mutual need to put bread on the table, I would rather classify them as aquaintances.
I left IBM for various reasons, but I still have friends there. One in particular is afraid to leave because everyone likes her there. She is underpaid and overworked. She can easily do much better elsewhere, but she doesn't want to lose her "friends". It's dumb and I've told her so.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
I agree - bail now.
When it comes to the workplace, where do loyalties end and responsibilities to oneself begin?
How much loyalty does your company have in you? My bet is they would sack your ass in a hearbeat.
...that you all seem to love to hate, maybe I can toss a different opinion into the mix, rather than all the 'bail, they're idiots' advice that seems to be common...
Have you discussed your dissatisfaction with your management? Have you come up with any ideas that might help the company get over this 'hump'?
Everyone seems to think that Managers are these 'super-people' that can conquer any problem, if they only put their mind to it... when in reality, they are just guys/gals like anyone else, trying to leverage their experience and ideas to keep a company moving... there is no 'magic forumla' to running a company. It is also a lot easier to find fault, than provide solutions.... The most important thing is that, without a doubt, everything these people do is with the purist of intentions: keep/grow the business. They may not make the same choices you would, but their heart is usually in the right place...
As for what to do, rather than discuss this with a VERY large group of STRANGERS, discuss it with your management. See what kind of people they REALLY are. See if they really want to make things good/better. Then make your decision.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
Nobody here can answer a question like that.
First of all, the real question isn't loyalty to the company. From the way you write it, it sounds like loyalty to those non-moronic co-workers, some of which may even be friends? Your not sounding worried about the company itself, you sound worried about them. Those are people. Thats an admirable trait.
Some questions you can ask yourself would include things like:
- Can I take some of them with me, and get them out of here into a better place?
- If I stay, am I just prolonging the inevitable, or can I actually save this place?
- Can they find better jobs easily if I leave, or are they going to be more or less fucked?
- How much do I really care about what happens to them?
My *advice* would be to sit down and quietly think about it (or pace, or whatever you do that helps you think). If you can take several of them with you, you could be doing them a huge favor, as well as yourself at the same time. If not, will your staying really make a difference, or will it just make it take that much longer for the incompetitant management to drive the company straight into the ground?
As I said, nobody can really answer this question for you, because it depends too much on what kind of person you are. Some people would do anything to protect their friends, others arent. Look at if you care. If you do care, look at how much good you can do in each situation, and try to pick the best one that you can live with doing.
Hopefully some of the posts in this thread get you thinking, maybe that will help you find the answers your looking for.
Good luck!
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
Not that I disagree with you personally, I have to take issue with two of your comments.
First, you make mention of how "everyone seems to think that managers are these 'super-people'..." (emphasis not mine). While I definitely cannot speak for everyone, as you seem to be able to, I know I can speak for myself and many of the people I work with and have worked with in that past, when I say that this is hardly true. I know that managers are just 'regular people', and far more often than not, they are the ones who don't have the knowledge to actually do the work, but do have the belief that they can tell others how the work is to be done.
Only once in my entire career have I known a manager who truly understood the work/projects he was managing. Unfortunely, he was not one of my managers, but a friend's. He was an excellent programmer who had filled a managerial position on the project he was working on after the previous manager was promoted to higher levels. After a year he couldn't take dealing with management above him anymore and left for a startup company. Instead of being replaced by one of the other programmers who were equally skilled, a non-programmer was sent over to manage the project. Within two months, all but one member of the staff on the project had left the company in disgust. My friend has tried to weather the new manager as best as he can, but is now pursuing offers from other companies. He will be the last of the pre-new-manager staff to leave, causing a 100% turnover in under six months.
What triggered the ridiculous turnover was what I have begun to realize is typical of many managers who have no true understanding of what they're really managing. Promises were constantly made to other departments and higher level management with no consulting of his staff, ridiculous deadlines were constantly imposed, staff members were constantly being shuffled around in the project to meet each new far-fetched promise being made, and despite their efforts, staff members were never allowed to participate in any of the discussions that led to new promises and deadlines.
The new manager didn't care at all about how much damage he was doing to morale, how disillusioned his employees were becoming with all the changes in direction and having no input into anything, nor did he listen when his employees were trying to tell him things were not working out very well. His sole concern was looking good to other managers and the higher levels by committing to anything they asked him for.
Along the same vein, I also have to take issue with another point you make about managers: "without a doubt, everything these people do is with the purist of intentions". With the experiences my friends and I have had, this made me laugh out loud.
I have yet to meet a single manager myself whose intentions were not riddled with self-promotion, ego, blind ambition, and a total lack of respect for the fact that he/she is screwed without the blood, sweat and tears of his/her employees -- or a combination thereof.
There are most certainly good managers out there, and even some outstanding ones. You may well be one of those managers (largely because you don't sound like any manager I've ever known personally), but my experiences have always been with managers whose total lack of knowledge in their field has never hindered their outlandish promises, their expectations founded in crack-induced hallucinations, and their purely selfish and political motives aimed at bettering their own personal image at any cost to their employees.
If you can honestly say that you have never made a promise for a deadline or a project or anything else to another manager or higher up without first consulting with your employees, considering at full weight their input, and have never let creep in any ulterior motive (i.e. "if I promise them this feature and work my guys hard enough so they get it done, I'll look great and may get that promotion"), then I would love to know if you're hiring. If so, and if I'm competent and interested in the field in which you'll be hiring, I will file an application and send my resume very shortly.
My basic point is that you can't assume this guy's managers are as well-intentioned as you seem to be (and I truly would commend you on an excellent job if you've avoided the pitfalls I'm so apt to gripe about). While my optimistic side would have me believe that maybe I've just been unlucky with managers and that one day maybe I'll meet a manager that is competent and does truly have only good intentions for the employees and the company, that hope is quickly drowned out by two things. First, I'm not an optimist. Second, I see the same things happening to many of my friends and fellow programmers on an all too frequent basis.
Jump Ship. There is NO reason for you to stay with a dying company. Give your friends good references. Feel no guilt. You'll be kicking yourself for losing those job offers whent the comany does fold.
http://www.matthewmiller.net
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
I think the important thing is what's ethical when considering issues of corporate loyalty. It is unethical to jump ship in order to get money for bringing trade-secret-type information to a competitor. It is unethical to make a false committment to a company's project and then (barring an extremely good reason, of course) bail when they are depending on you to do what you said you would. It is certainly ethical to watch out for your personal welfare and leave a failing company.
Management is responsible for staffing concerns, not you.
If you are so pivital to the project, then it's management's problem not yours.
If the company is doing so poorly, then the decision will be made for you within the year even if you do nothing.
Leave. Stay. Either way, be honest and remember what you are responsible for and what is out of your control.
Jumping immediately to another interesting company is a really good way to keep your spirits up. If you can bring some of the good people with you, go for it. They'll appreciate it because they know that you aren't responsible for them but will deeply appreciate it. Good for building loyalty and/or friendships.
From what you wrote, you've already made up your mind -- probably a few moments before pressing the submit button.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
I can't even understand why there is even a CONCEPT of company loyalty. What are you being loyal to? What are you even talking about? Throughout the ages, human beings have been loyal to things like religious causes, their nation or ethnic group, their families... where it actually MEANT something. Who has ever heard of being loyal to a company? Think about it -- what does a company stand for? Making money. Selling widgets. Commerce. That's it, it's totally shallow. If you really believed in what you were doing, you wouldn't try to make any money from it, you would be running a NON PROFIT ORGANIZATION!
The dot com thing and the startup cult mentality thing have gotten people so confused they don't even remember that it's JUST A JOB. And by the way, that's why you shouldn't go to work with your friends.
I think the problem is that your typical Ivy League educated kid jumps right out of school and into one of these dot com cults and thinks it a way of life or a belief system. Get some perspective. I worked for years at delis and as a secretary and whatever before I went back to school and got a batchelors in Comp Sci. Now I've got a different job that pays more money. But it's still not that different from when I went to work every day to serve bagels to somebody. It's hard to believe in bagels. I guess it's a little easier to fool yourself into thinking you believe in software.
"Loyalty"? Give me a break.
Don't post on slashdot. Get back to work.
A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him. When class began, wordlessly he picked up a large empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with rocks - rocks about 2" in diameter. He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it was. So the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles, of course, rolled into the open areas between the rocks. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The students laughed. The professor picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. "Now," said the professor, "I want you to recognize that this is your life. The rocks are the important things - your family, your partner, your health, and your children - anything that is so important to you that if it were lost, you would be devastated. The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, and your car. The sand is everything else. The small stuff." "If you put the sand into the jar first, there is no room for the pebbles or the rocks. The same goes for your life. If you spend all your energy and your time on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. TAKE YOUR PARTNER OUT DANCING. There will always be time to go to work, clean the house, give a dinner party and fix the disposal." "Take care of the rocks first - the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
5PM or your conscience, whichever intervenes first.
Bryguy
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
You can replace "An Anonymous CTO" with "CmdrTaco" and the article still makes sense. Try it yourself!
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
I don't necessarily agree. My partner and I have been working to open and then running a company since July. In that time, we each have had at least two job offers that I would consider genuine (and other pie-in-the-sky type flights of fancy). Many techies I know routinely get offers from people with whom they interact outside the company; suppliers, contractors, etc. who try to steal them away from their present job. If this particular CTO has been doing his job well and has done the requisite networking for his company, then I'm mildly surprised that he's only gotten two offers.
I've dealt with HR, mostly on the basis of interviewing potentials, and one fairly important point revolves around "Where do you work now?"" and, to a lesser extent, "Why do you want to switch jobs."
I've had the unfortunate experience of being 'downsized', and the even more ridiculous experience of being on the losing side of an internal political war (of which I had no part, and joined 1/2 way through). In the first case, I was surprised, and had a heck of a time getting a new job - the HR belief is that if you were laid off, _obviously_ you weren't good. There is some recognition that this isn't always the case, but most HR types aren't the brightest candles in the marquee. The second time, I already had a job lined up, left on a Friday, started up elsewhere on the Monday. The new job was not necessarily ideal, but it seriously helped with both the cash flow, and with getting the next job ("I currently work at xxx." and "I'm looking for something more challenging than web design.").
No trite answer will help you resolve your problem, but company loyalty is a rather mythical item in this day and age. Your primary responsibility is to yourself (and any family). Loyalty is a desirable trait, but blind loyalty can get you into trouble.
I left one company for a bunch of reasons - one of which was I picked up more and more responsibilities, ended up the sole person capable of supporting several systems, and still being treated as dirt. Yes, they were royally screwed by my leaving, despite my best efforts at a painless transition. Part of the 'loyalty' thing is that it works two ways. If they show zero reason for you to be loyal, then don't. It's that simple. Incompetent management is one of the best indicators that they're not worth your time.
The economy has never been about companies - its about people . A companies sole reason for exisiting is to act as an adhoc convenience for people to act in concert to produce products and services for other people. The sad part is, the incompetent people at the top have lied to us over the years by promoting the good of the company over that of the people employed by it. Not because they have any company loyalty themselves (thats why CEO's are always bailing), but because keeping the company afloat keeps them employed long enough to gather millions in salaries and stock options. Once they are vested, they bail too.
Which brings me to why I think the current trend in capitalism towards the survival of the corporarations over all other goals is a very bad trend for everyone. The economy exists to bring the state of humanity to higher and higher degrees of prosperity and wealth for everyone. Or at least that should be its goal. Instead, what you have happeing, are larger and larger merged corporations becomeing wealthier and more prosperous, further dividing the haves from the have nots.
www.enthea.org
No management (unless thier heads are where the sun don't shine) would allow this, purely from the point of treating that one critical employee as a person, much less from the reliability angle.
Bite the bullet and get it over with quickly. Your coworkers will thank you later. Life goes on. Even the darkest day finally ends.
Also, be creative. Plan. Take their curricula vitae with you. Keep the cream, and spread the rest around. Your new employers may thank you, and so might your employee friends.
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
If you go, and if once you are comfortable, take some with you! Where I work at, four or five people (at one time even more) had all come from one other company. They were good at working together, now the only thing holding them all back is the management *grin*. It can work, and if the current place is dying, and if you like the coworkers, do what is best all around, save your neck, then try to save theirs.
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
They held a strategy session that afternoon. Some of the spouses/siggy o's had great ideas on the search, so everybody took time to watch the kids, and circulate around. Six hours later, everybody had a great resume, a plan for their own personal dream job, and better friendships.
They also each had five copies of everybody's resumes, including family resumes. This search was decided on as a community venture. At the end of the interview, if the interviewer asked if they knew of anybody with x skill, they pulled out a buddy resume from their portfolio.
Some people left right away, while others still worked. Within three weeks everybody was at a better job. (This was in much tougher times than these.) Some people had found jobs with other people.
This has since been done with another friend who rented the back two rooms of a restaurant. They all had better jobs within three weeks, again. Don't do this with people you don't trust. Do make sure you involve the families. Do have fun.
"And yet, I have two upcoming job offers that are both well paying and good career moves, and offers don't last forever."
Why do you have offers coming in? Did you put your resume out? Surely you must have at least interviewed with them.
I suspect you've already made the decision to leave and want us to provide some conscience-salving justifications for it.
--
MailOne
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