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German Company Will Take Windows Off Your Hands
Felix writes: "The German computer magazine c't writes that the German PC manufacturer Waibel now buys your used Windows licenses for around $30-$40 to sell the them bundled with their PCs. The highest German court, the BGH, declared this as being legal in its "OEM decision," so Microsoft can do nothing about it...." I obtained a reasonable translation using the Systrans translation engine over at dictionary.com. Imagine -- a market where the end-user hasn't duly accepted a shrink-wrap license which robs him of all further transfer rights. Sounds like a more robust market to me.
This is great. Actually there is a 9th district circuit court ruling that allows the same thing in the USA. They ruled that once a manufacture vends a product, the manufacture cannot control the sale of that product. This means that you can resell your OEM or Academic software to any one with or without a PC. Unfortunately for me, MS called their wolves at Preston, Gates (yes its his dad's firm) & Ellis and had them ruin me using other methods. (Federal Court is a very expensive play to play) My old site www.oemsoftware.com was forced to close and I had to fire 7 people. They won this one, but hopefully karma has a way and coming up and biting them in the ass.
Windows 95 is still a pretty decent consumer-level OS: unless you're going up to Win2k there's no real reason to upgrade beyond service packs (e.g. 98 & ME suck ass, NT sucks at multimedia).
Uhh, I don't think so. Windows 95 won't even install on lots of newer hardware (try getting it to support some of the newer AMD motherboards), and it doesn't do USB. Obtroll: Perhaps in the Linux world not having USB support is the norm, but some of us demand better. =P
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Of course they behave as if they were selling something. If they were actually licensing something under German law, there would be a continous liability of the licenser to the licensee. This is a situation where Microsoft would not like to find itself in, given their quality of code.
© Copyright 2000 Kristian Köhntopp
All rights reserved.
Beloved Sun, indeed. You obviously don't read the text here. Even Linux zealots are mad that Sun seems to be spurning them! You don't even seem to be reading the extremest attitudes here!
1. Disconnect from any network.
2. Start the install, but don't use dynamic update (which wants to connect, right?)
3. After installation and on first boot, don't set up your Internet connection when it asks. Click next or skip - the wizard will crash when you click next.
4. Click Start/Run and type:
regsrv32.exe -u regwizc.dll
Close the confirmation window that appears.
5. Start/run: regedit
6. Under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsNT\C
7. Open up Internet Explorer. Open the Tools/Internet Properties and change your home page to something that isn't Microsoft or MSN.
8. Reboot and before windows starts up, plug your network connection back in.
---
The effort your are talking about was in Australia with different law covering licenses. The issue here is that German law specifically allow transfer of licenses regardless of the "text" under which it is granted. In this case MS.
Help fight continental drift.
The 5000, which was on sale in 1999 when I was shopping for a laptop, has a max resolution of 1400x1050. Your 5000e is a more recent laptop. The two differ in other ways too, most notably size and heft. The old 5000 was 2.5" thick and nearly 10 lbs in weight, whereas the 5000e is more like 1.5" and 6 or 7 lbs. That size kept me away from the 5000, and I bought the 3700. I really like it, but when replacement time comes, the 5000e or its successor, is more likely what I'll get.
--Jim
I agree that c't has indeed a strong "followership" here, but hey, they have well earned it. In all the years I read c't (10+ years) I had never any reason not to trust them. Their style of writing and layout/design is serious and pleasing and their editors are the best in their field (i.e I think it is safe to say that no other journalist in Germany and maybe in Europe knows as much about x86-processors as Andreas Stiller).
The war is run by Waibel, who are very bad loosers. In open tests where they send in preconfigured special press systems they usually get very good reviews which may lead them to think all their systems live up to that promise. Sadly, this is not the case, like in all this open tests.
In practise, their systems far to often fail miserably, their customer service and support is terrible and so on. AFAIK c't is the only magazine that do this secret testing in germany (it's quite expensive if you have to buy 15 computers a 1500$) and so they are the only one that actual report about real live with a Waibel system.
But, funny side note, c't or better the above mentioned Andreas Stiller is fighting a private war - against Intel. Okay, sort of. He is "fighting" the terrible and nowadays totally useless A20 gate which Intel (and AMD, I think) happily integrates into every new processor they build :)
The story has an interesting background. c't did an anonymous buy test where Waibel sold an apparently illegal Windows license to the test buyer. Now it seems to be the case that M$ refuses to sell any legal licenses to Waibel (at least they have some serious disagreements), so Waibel is looking for ways to get some Win-Licenses to sell together with there computers.
But this company has an incredible ability to interprete every bad report about them or every law/license infringement with which they get caught as an private little war of c't-magazine against the company.
Its quite ridicoulous.
Can I sell them my Toshiba laptop MS-Windows license, or are they only interested in a more generic version? (Yes, mine was never used -- I unpacked the new laptop and loaded Linux on it)
Thanks, that's exactly what I couldn't find on their pages ;-) And I did search for a while...
That's one reason less to use something different than Windows. It might decrease Microsoft's income a bit, but how about Waibel offering all kinds of operating systems with their system? Microsoft certainly doesn't like Waibel too much for that move, so are there any obstacles in offerings various other operating systems with their hardware?
You've fallen for the classic Big Company tactic: they do something, and you assume the law is on their side.
The other variation is they telll you something and you assume that the law is on their side. e.g. Software licence agreements which give a long list of things you can't do (maybe even stating something to the effect that some clauses may not apply in some jurisdictions). Knowing full well that most people are unlikely to check which clauses (if any) are valid.
Well the CD itself is not a restauration CD but a gull Windows 2000 (with SP1) installation disc. Doesn't has any drivers specific to Dell hardware or doesn't carry any Dell branding. Doesn't sound exactly like a "restauration" CD (which should have OS, drivers and basic Dell apps all installed on a disc image)
Because my new Dell laptop came with a Windows 2000 CD. As I planned on using another OS on it I wanted to give it away to a friend.
Turned out :
- the CD won't run on a compter manufactered by someone else than Dell (I think it checks something in the BIOS)
- the licence number is a sticker... stuck on the underside of the laptop itself !
So I just paid for a legal Windows 2000 copy, yet I can't even use it on the computer I want. I wonder how Dell customers who buy desktop computers will like it when they change their motherboards (and therefor, the BIOS in it won't be Dell branded anymore). If this isn't a blatant attempt to rip off customers, then what is it ?
An interesting German ruling, and the consequent market response.
M$ has insisted long and hard in US Courts that it is _licencing_ it's products thru shrinkwraps hidden inside. For OEMs and big corps, it sure does get signed licence agreements. But at retail, it behaves as if it were simply selling copyrighted works (books, music, videos).
M$ doesn't do even simple practical things like have purchasers call for a key, insist on registration, or tear-off registration to protect their licencing status. Apparently their marketing department has vetoed these things as expensive or frightening to customers.
So why should the Courts grant them licencing status when M$ has not done what they could for that status?
This is a great idea. I won a Compaq notebook from Mandrake at Linux World in San Jose. When I got the notebook it had Mandrake installed, of course, which was just fine with me. But, in the box was a Windows 2000 license and CD they had to buy with the system. I'm sure they just loved that.
Thanks Mandrake!
But they're not buying the CDs themselves, they're buying the licenses. And a license to run Windows on one PC should be independent of the installation media, so they can still buy licenses from folks who bought a PC with OEM Windoze, a restore disk, and installed Linux (or *BSD or Be or that OS my friend wrote in his spare time a few years ago or whatever).
Doesn't the license bascially determine who can use the software? So I don't see why it would be illegal to change ownership of software anymore than selling your old books in a garage sale.
I guess the Microsoft worry is that you sell the license without deleting the software on your computer. But I still think its criminal to lock an operating system to a specific PC which is what Microsoft plans to do so that there is no option to delete and install on someone elses computer.
The anti-trust suit was brought by the DOJ, which is funded diretly out of all of our taxes.
Eactly how do you think Sun is funding it? Outside of paying a reasonably large amoutn of coporate taxes due to their excellent sales, I see no link.
You only really need an OS when it's your first computer.
Or if your old OS doesn't support your new hardware. Windows 95A does not support USB or large disks.
After that it should be like any other periferal device that you swap to the new machine.
For instance, I can't swap ISA cards into my new machine because it doesn't have any ISA slots. I can't swap my old non-USB joysticks into my new machine because my PCI sound card doesn't have a game port. And I can't swap old versions of DOS into my new machine because DOS can't handle hard disks bigger than 8 gigabytes.
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Actually, I admin a network with 40 Windows 95 clients, among others, and they have no trouble on the hand-built white boxes I use: old and brand new, Intel and AMD. And lack of USB isn't much of a concern for a larger company, as much as I love it at home. Win95 still has its niche.
question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
From the article (paraphrased by the fish): the company had a spat [Babelfish link] with M$ a few months ago about a supposed illegal Windows 98 license. M$ seems to have suspended sale of OEM licenses to them, so they needed to find another way to sell PCs loaded with Windows.
Necessity being the mother of invention and all, I like the idea. What they're really talking about is continuously recycling Windows licenses. Rather than everyone pitching their Windows license when they pitch their old PC, the license could now be sold to someone else.
Of course, this is bad news for M$. Windows 95 is still a pretty decent consumer-level OS: unless you're going up to Win2k there's no real reason to upgrade beyond service packs (e.g. 98 & ME suck ass, NT sucks at multimedia). So this means that Germans could protest M$ snail's pace "innovation" by re-buying license for their old OS. Beautiful.
question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
You have a legal right (under most circumstances) to resell Windows. Microsoft doesn't want you to, and eBay prevents you from doing so because eBay is Microsoft's bitch.
Even if you receive a letter from Bill Gates himself, signed by his Army of Lawyers, saying "You cannot resell Windows", it's still won't be true.
My mom is not a Karma whore!
Otherwise it seems that it's just a ploy so companies can keep huge databases full of buying habits
:-)"
That's not necessarily a bad thing - I once worked at a games company, and there was a bit of hand-wringing over how much polish should be sacrificed to make the game availible for lower-end machines. What it boiled down to was that it was very difficult to know what kind of computer hardware breakdown was out there, so such conversation turned into "what giveaways could we give for registering, so we can find out how low people want us to go".
So when people complain "It's ridiculous! My machine is perfectly good, not very old, and I can't play any games on it!", I often say "Send in your registration cards - since no-one else does, you'll be voting with the power of 20 men
Of course, a huge amoubt of the info they want is marketing guff for junkmail, etc, but with some companies, it can be a way to have some input and give some feedback.
So the compromise solution would be to ONLY fill in those parts of the form relevant to what you want them to know. If half the boxes are not check, I can't see them denying your registration (there would be no point - it's not like a webform that won't accept submit until you've finished - once the card is mailed, it's mailed).
Any suggestions for a hypthetical, particulaly nasty card that you want to fill in, but don't want to give your address to for mandatory junk mail, but do want to give it for some freebie offer for registering?
Does it matter? They aren't buying the disks, they are buying the licenses. If they already have the disks, what does it matter?
I wonder if I can sell all my old MSDN copies of Windows now? I must have at least 20 :) Imagine that: subscribe to MSDN and _make_ money by reselling all those CD's. Probably won't happen.
If I recall right, it did not go anyplace. It was and is a sort of catch 22, that MS points to the OEMs, and the OEMs point to MS.
So the Germany solution of selling them off second hand is an elegant and sensible solution.
With the future MS rental licenses, this may be a problem. I can see a future market for English versions of Windows from Germany.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
So now I am forced to go buy an off-the-shelf copy and leave the one that came with my machine unused. I'd like to sell the HP-only copy to recoup some of that cost.
Actually, if I "borrowed" a friend's media to install, would I be legal since I do have a license, just not one that will install properly? Would this not be the same as borrowing a friend's copy because my CD was scratched?
Isent Microsoft Tieing lisences to the computer hardware it's self in it's next OS release?
No, Microsoft is just using technology to try and enforce what their licenses have always said: You have only purchased the rights to install and use this software on one machine at a time.
You're still going to be able to move to a new PC or hardware configuration, you just might have to call someone on the phone to do it (or maybe they'll have a better idea).
"And like that
They might be pricing at the same rate that M$ charged them?
So if they were already paying $30-$40 or more by M$, they lose nothing by paying this much to consumers!
This is also gotta hurt M$. They now compete against themselves, and they *have* to innovate against themselves, if this catches on!
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
How ironic! How karmic! How fitting!
If half a million Windows OSes are out there now, then during the next upgrade cycle, and if there are manufacturers that wan't to beat the system, all they have to do is buy back the OSes from their customers and sell it again with the next cycle of systems created.
M$ may argue that there are unlicensed systems, but then there is always the argument that people are running Linux, BSD, Be, or Darwin!
Even better, it means M$ has to out-innovate itself to force people to buy the newer OS at the same or similar price to the older OS; if they charge too much, people will generally opt for the older OS, and if they don't charge enough, the M$ loses out on profits!
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
Virtually EVERY software company does this. As usual, most of the comments on Slashdot read as though M$ is the only one engaging in a given (negative) practise.
In fact, your beloved Sun Microsystems, without whom your precious "M$" anti-trust lawsuit would not be funded, engages in the very same practise.
I'm not condoning the policy. I'm just tired of hearing about how evil "M$" is and how wonderful all other companies are.
However, I'm sure my voice will fall upon deaf ears and closed minds.
Don't read everything you believe . . .
"Saddam Hussein cavorts with terrorists."
The law IS on their side. They have more money than you. Therefore, they win.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
A similar decision was recently made in a lower court here in Finland. The ruling basically said, that a shrink wrap software is similar to a music record. When you buy one you also get a right to resell it. We're anxiously waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on this.
One of the rather major irritations that have been promulgated on the community is the bios coupled distribution. You buy a Dell computer and get a Windoze 2000 distribution that will only install on a Dell computer. I am sure there is some very small print someplace that makes this vaguely legal, but it sure does annoy the heck out of me. Given that Dell does not support AMD processors, this seems to be more than a small restraint of trade. Bad enough to have to buy bundled software. Even worse to buy bundled software that reverse bundles itself into the hardware.
Sex is heriditary, if your parents didn't have it chances are good you won't either.