So, until your understand this basic idea, don't go claiming you know _ANYTHING_ about filesystems.
Without sounding like too much of a jerk, I have hundreds of commits in the linux-2.6 fs/* tree. This is what I do for a living. I actually do have a pretty decent grasp of how Linux journaling filesystems behave.:)
Test your assumptions on ext4 with default mount options. Create a new file and write some buffered data to it, wait 5-10 seconds, punch the power button, and see what you get. (You'll get a 0 length file) Or write a pattern to a file, sync it, overwrite with a new pattern, and punch power. (You'll get the old pattern). Or write data to a file, sync it, extend it, and punch power. (You'll get the pre-extension size). Wait until the kernel pushes data out of the page cache to disk, *then* punch power, and you'll get everything you wrote, obviously.
XFS and ext4 behave identically in all these scenarios. Maybe you can show me a testcase where XFS misbehaves in your opinion? (bonus points for demonstrating where XFS actually fails any posix guarantee).
Yes, ext3/4 have data=journaled - but its not default, and with ext4, that option disables delalloc and O_DIRECT capabilities. 99% of the world doesn't run that way; it's slower for almost all workloads and TBH, is only lightly tested.
Yes, ext3's data=ordered pushes out tons of file data on every journal commit. That has serious performance implications, but it does shorten the window for buffered data loss to the journal commit time.
You want data persistence with a posix filesystem? Use the proper data integrity syscalls, that's all there is to it.
No, that's FUD and/or misunderstanding on your part.
"data=ordered" is ext3/4's name for "don't expose stale data on a crash," something which XFS has never done, with or without a mount option. ext3/4 also have "data=writeback" which means "DO expose stale data on a crash." XFS does not need feature parity for ill-advised options.
Any filesystem will lose buffered and unsynced file data on a crash (http://lwn.net/Articles/457667/). XFS has made filesystem integrity and data persistence job one since before ext3 existed. Like any filesystem, it has had bugs, but implying that it was unsafe for use until recently is incorrect.
I say this as someone who's been working on ext3, ext4 and xfs code for over a decade, combined.
The currentcost meters are fairly cheap, OSX-capable I think, and very popular in Europe so there are lots of little scripts for them. In the us you can find them at http://currentcost.net/buynowmain.html
The DIY rig at http://openenegymonitor.org/ is fairly straightforward, even if you're not that technically inclined....
Otherwise I'd just echo the suggestion to suck it up for the extra $50 and get the Ted 5000
XFS is also nice, but the lack of a proper userspace fsck has turned me away there.
Eh? Man xfs_repair(8)
Just because it's not called "fsck" (and not run at boot time) does not mean that the functionality is not there when you need it.
A crash does not mean you need to run fsck; that is why you pay the price for the journaling overhead, right? When xfs detects errors at runtime, run xfs_repair, and bask in the glory of "a proper userspace fsck."
Nobody is restricting anyone's rights, I think. You're under no obligation to give them code, and they're under no obligation to take your code. IF you enter into this agreement, and especially with large sums of cash involved, it's simply two parties entering into an agreement. If you write the best thing in the world for Evolution, and want to hold onto your copyright, nobody will stop you. (Fork the project if you want, etc etc...)
It won't help (much) with the caffeine part, but it might help replace the hot-beverage ritual. I drink green tea all day long, after (mostly) kicking the coffee habit.
It still has a little caffeine, but overall it helps keep me from getting dehydrated - which should have the added benefit of making my brain work better, too.:) Green tea is also supposed to be good for you, what with antioxidants and such.
And this from one of the more bleeding-edge dists no less.
Indeed. Bleeding edge often means instability; I have heard some of the freakiest XFS problems from Gentoo users. Problems that often go away when they revert to the stock kernel, so I have to wonder what all Gentoo is doing in their kernel.
Considering that so many of the people who clamor for xfs (imx) are kids...
Del. Jean Cryor, a Montgomery County Republican, said she came to the briefing thinking Rubin would be a "smart aleck."
Is this where we're at now? Anyone who criticizes the official line is a "smart aleck" who should be disregarded before even listening to what they have to say?
If a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins gets this kind of treatment from the "we know better than you" legislators, how much influence do you think you and I have when we send our handy little emails to our elected officials?
Why is there this blind faith in technology and corporate competence, especially when the issue is as critical as this one?
4. REPORTING AND AUDIT. If Customer wishes to increase the number of Installed System, then Customer will purchase from Red Hat additional Services for each additional Installed System. During the term of this Agreement and for one (1) year thereafter, Customer expressly grants to Red Hat the right to audit Customer's facilities and records from time to time in order to verify Customer's compliance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
Where is the line drawn? Surely I can rebuild the freely available SRPMS and put them wherever I want. What if I use their binary RPMs with apt to upgrade an RH9 system? Hm....
You suppose what hasn't been implemented? XFS does not need a fsck program which runs the way traditional fsck's run, i.e. after an unclean unmount.
It -does- have tools to check consistency of an XFS filesystem and repair corrupt or inconsistent filesystems. There's just no reason to always run them after an unclean shutdown, because log replay takes care of this.
Don't you think that if you had a high-profile web site, and Hatch was on an anti-pornography tirade (of course that has never happened before), that he wouldn't throw you in jail, or at least make your life hell, if he could?
You -can- put them on your block, in Austin.
on
A Mighty Wind
·
· Score: 1
(somewhat redundant with my other post, but)
http://www.austinenergy.com/greenchoice/
Get one in -your- back yard, if you can!
on
A Mighty Wind
·
· Score: 1
In Minnesota, Excel energy has a "windsource" program. You can pay a subsidy* per 100kWh, and
they will build enough additional wind capacity to provide that power. In essence, you can power part, or all, of your house on Wind power.** Neat, eh?
Austin, TX has a similar program. Excel does it
in Colorado, too. If you believe in
this stuff, put your money where your mouth is! It's just a few dollars.***
* OTOH, it sucks - they need more capacity, and I think wind is the cheapest new capacity they can build. So why am I subsidizing it? Oh well, if that's what it takes.
** Let's not get into the "dude, your house isn't powered by wind, all the electricity is mixed together" discussion - yes, I know. But if I use 700kWh/month, and I pay to put 700kWh/month of new wind power online, I will happily say that my house is wind powered.
*** Actually when I signed up in Austin, I got a -refund- because that was the summer when power was insanely expensive (thank you Enron!) and the wind generated power turned out to be -cheaper-!
Slashdot Mirror
Metadata checksums are under active development on XFS as we speak.
So, until your understand this basic idea, don't go claiming you know _ANYTHING_ about filesystems.
Without sounding like too much of a jerk, I have hundreds of commits in the linux-2.6 fs/* tree. This is what I do for a living. :)
I actually do have a pretty decent grasp of how Linux journaling filesystems behave.
Test your assumptions on ext4 with default mount options. Create a new file and write some buffered data to it, wait 5-10 seconds, punch the power button, and see what you get. (You'll get a 0 length file) Or write a pattern to a file, sync it, overwrite with a new pattern, and punch power. (You'll get the old pattern). Or write data to a file, sync it, extend it, and punch power. (You'll get the pre-extension size). Wait until the kernel pushes data out of the page cache to disk, *then* punch power, and you'll get everything you wrote, obviously.
XFS and ext4 behave identically in all these scenarios. Maybe you can show me a testcase where XFS misbehaves in your opinion? (bonus points for demonstrating where XFS actually fails any posix guarantee).
Yes, ext3/4 have data=journaled - but its not default, and with ext4, that option disables delalloc and O_DIRECT capabilities. 99% of the world doesn't run that way; it's slower for almost all workloads and TBH, is only lightly tested.
Yes, ext3's data=ordered pushes out tons of file data on every journal commit. That has serious performance implications, but it does shorten the window for buffered data loss to the journal commit time.
You want data persistence with a posix filesystem? Use the proper data integrity syscalls, that's all there is to it.
No, that's FUD and/or misunderstanding on your part.
"data=ordered" is ext3/4's name for "don't expose stale data on a crash," something which XFS has never done, with or without a mount option. ext3/4 also have "data=writeback" which means "DO expose stale data on a crash." XFS does not need feature parity for ill-advised options.
Any filesystem will lose buffered and unsynced file data on a crash (http://lwn.net/Articles/457667/). XFS has made filesystem integrity and data persistence job one since before ext3 existed. Like any filesystem, it has had bugs, but implying that it was unsafe for use until recently is incorrect.
I say this as someone who's been working on ext3, ext4 and xfs code for over a decade, combined.
The DIY rig at http://openenegymonitor.org/ is fairly straightforward, even if you're not that technically inclined....
Otherwise I'd just echo the suggestion to suck it up for the extra $50 and get the Ted 5000
My recent time-waster is finding a way to make all these different gadgets able to talk to all the various websites ...
In since F9; in F10 boot the installer with "ext4" on the commandline to get it enabled.
XFS is also nice, but the lack of a proper userspace fsck has turned me away there.
Eh? Man xfs_repair(8)
Just because it's not called "fsck" (and not run at boot time) does not mean that the functionality is not there when you need it.
A crash does not mean you need to run fsck; that is why you pay the price for the journaling overhead, right? When xfs detects errors at runtime, run xfs_repair, and bask in the glory of "a proper userspace fsck."
So it's a pyramid scheme, excellent! You create distros for 5 people you know... soon all of your bugs will be fixed for you, and step 3, Profit! ;-)
... and they don't have to accept your code.
Nobody is restricting anyone's rights, I think. You're under no obligation to give them code, and they're under no obligation to take your code. IF you enter into this agreement, and especially with large sums of cash involved, it's simply two parties entering into an agreement. If you write the best thing in the world for Evolution, and want to hold onto your copyright, nobody will stop you. (Fork the project if you want, etc etc...)
I guess you'd have to ask NASA
how fast is -your- 512p intel-architecture supercomputer?
It won't help (much) with the caffeine part, but
:) Green tea is also supposed to
it might help replace the hot-beverage ritual.
I drink green tea all day long, after (mostly)
kicking the coffee habit.
It still has a little caffeine, but overall it
helps keep me from getting dehydrated - which should
have the added benefit of making my brain work
better, too.
be good for you, what with antioxidants and
such.
GRIO is not available on Linux, because it requires a lot of other support in the kernel proper, in the various I/O subsystems etc.
however, the realtime subvolume, which is a component of GRIO, is available for use on Linux.
XFS journals quota info, so you won't have to
wait for a quotacheck on a huge filesystem.
Christoph was not working on XFS while he was employed by Caldera.
do you understand that from reading the code, or do you understand that from listening to the slashdot echo chamber?
And this from one of the more bleeding-edge dists no less.
Indeed. Bleeding edge often means instability; I have heard some of the freakiest XFS problems from Gentoo users. Problems that often go away when they revert to the stock kernel, so I have to wonder what all Gentoo is doing in their kernel.
Considering that so many of the people who clamor for xfs (imx) are kids...
Indeed. Would those be the kids at Fermilab or the kids at NASA? Maybe the newbies at the Salk Institute or at Incyte Genomics. Perhaps you were thinking of the know-nothings at Quantum or the meddlers at Echostar...
I'm sure if SGI actually cleans up the interface it'll go in but who knows if _that_ will ever happen.
Please also offer some pointers on which parts of the "interface" you feel should be cleaned up.
Is this where we're at now? Anyone who criticizes the official line is a "smart aleck" who should be disregarded before even listening to what they have to say?
If a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins gets this kind of treatment from the "we know better than you" legislators, how much influence do you think you and I have when we send our handy little emails to our elected officials?
Why is there this blind faith in technology and corporate competence, especially when the issue is as critical as this one?
Look at their Subscription Agreement.
Some choice snippets:
4. REPORTING AND AUDIT. If Customer wishes to increase the number of Installed System, then Customer will purchase from Red Hat additional Services for each additional Installed System. During the term of this Agreement and for one (1) year thereafter, Customer expressly grants to Red Hat the right to audit Customer's facilities and records from time to time in order to verify Customer's compliance with the terms and conditions of this Agreement.
Where is the line drawn? Surely I can rebuild the freely available SRPMS and put them wherever I want. What if I use their binary RPMs with apt to upgrade an RH9 system? Hm....
xfs.fsck also used to be a link.
You suppose what hasn't been implemented? XFS does not need a fsck program which runs the way traditional fsck's run, i.e. after an unclean unmount.
It -does- have tools to check consistency of an XFS filesystem and repair corrupt or inconsistent filesystems. There's just no reason to always run them after an unclean shutdown, because log replay takes care of this.
.... in the xfsprogs package.
Oh, and there is xfs.fsck but it's a no-op. This
-is- a journaling filesystem you know....
http://oss.sgi.com/letter_100103.txt
sco.com is running Apache / OpenSSL / PHP on Linux.
I want my two dollars!
Don't you think that if you had a high-profile web site, and Hatch was on an anti-pornography tirade (of course that has never happened before), that he wouldn't throw you in jail, or at least make your life hell, if he could?
(somewhat redundant with my other post, but)
http://www.austinenergy.com/greenchoice/
Austin, TX has a similar program. Excel does it in Colorado, too. If you believe in this stuff, put your money where your mouth is! It's just a few dollars.***
* OTOH, it sucks - they need more capacity, and I think wind is the cheapest new capacity they can build. So why am I subsidizing it? Oh well, if that's what it takes.
** Let's not get into the "dude, your house isn't powered by wind, all the electricity is mixed together" discussion - yes, I know. But if I use 700kWh/month, and I pay to put 700kWh/month of new wind power online, I will happily say that my house is wind powered.
*** Actually when I signed up in Austin, I got a -refund- because that was the summer when power was insanely expensive (thank you Enron!) and the wind generated power turned out to be -cheaper-!