Slashdot Mirror
Kid Clicks For Sale
evenprime writes "Zdnet is reporting that
N2H2
is
selling statistics
from their
BESS
filtering software (a product designed for use in schools) to
marketing companies who are interested in students' browsing
habits."
N2H2's
stock price
jumped dramatically last month when they
put up a helpful website
to explain how schools can comply with the new federal mandate which
requires the installation of censorware. And just wait for the
profit reports once
Europe makes it mandatory too.
Anyway, this selling-traffic-patterns story is interesting because it's the
next logical step in the
continuing trend
to
cash in on kids
-- if anyone gets suspended for reading Coke.com on Pepsi Day, let us
know, OK?
First of all, one cannot gather "statistical information" without gathering identifiable information about individual requests (IP address, time, URL requested, response returned). Second, identifiable information frequently appears in the URL field when browsing personalized sites or sites with lots of dynamic content. Let's not labor under the illusion that it's even possible to collect "clean" data.
That said, I want to know a few things about N2H2:
- Why are schools paying money for a product that itself generates revenue for the software vendor? That's like paying to join an ad network.
- How is N2H2 collecting this log data from schools? Is the collection mechanism silently built into the software, and if so was this disclosed to N2H2 software customers? (as opposed to their other customers - marketers purchasing the browsing habits of school children and library patrons)
- What are N2H2's data retention policies? Whatever they might choose to sell, I suspect they're hoarding every scrap of data they come across.
- Why are schools providing log data which will inevitably contain personally identifiable information to N2H2?
I smell a class action waiting to happen.-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
The lists of blocked sites would be in an open format. This does not mean that they could not be politically motivated, there would be nothing wrong with the Christian Coalition making their own blocking list, anybody that wants to can use it, but it is also quite clear what it is blocking.
I would hope that users of this software would be free to download blocking lists from anybody they wanted to, and to merge and intersect lists. Or even to subtract lists, thus lists of "sites that should not be blocked" would work.
OSS programmers are much more adapt at programming complex and powerful pattern matching rules than any of the commercial houses (apparently because this is the type of software that very much benifits from the many-eyes complex). They may have the capability to produce a system that works.
Because the lists can be reversed, people searching for pr0n might find them useful, and this may encourage pr0n providers to match the results more carefully, actually improving the censorware!
From what I recall, doesn't COPA (Child Online Protection Act) keep companies from collecting any data of anyone under the age of 13 years?
Actually, it refers to personal information, such as names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses... not aggregated information. I mean, otherwise kid oriented sites wouldn't be able to keep traffic logs and such...
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Instead of being afraid of children and wanting to protect them from the world -- up to and including age 18+ -- try to listen to them. Talk to them. Be open with them. Don't tell them that it's wrong to look at pictures of people having sex because you said so. Tell them that it's wrong because of the conditions that desperate women undergo to achieve the dream body or the dream relationship.
Except that instead of being against those "dirty pornographers", you'd instead be being critical of the fashion industry, politicans pushing "family values" (which equate to the idea of everyone should like one (very narrow) style of relationship. etc.
Will someone explain why filtering out unwanted content in public places is wrong?
Well for starters because ths software dosn't work very well and the companies producting it are less than honest about how they compile their lists. Indeed some of the people involved appear to be exactly the kind of people children need protecting from.
Libraries don't carry hardcore pornography on the shelves, why should they on the Net
When it comes to books and periodicals the library need to spend money and time in buying, cataloguing, shelving, etc. When it comes to the net they need to spend extra money and time to restrict people. Some restrictions, such as preventing the installation of third party software can be worth while, in the same way that laminating book covers is worth while. Money and time is expected to reduce a much greater future expense.
Some parents put the same exact software on home computers
This is something which really shouldn't happen. There are plenty of things which kids should not be using school computers for because they have no educational value or can cause problems with the computers. i.e. sites like www.gamestips.com and download.windows-software.com are legitimate to block from a school, but there's no reason why kids can't access them from home.
Also there are political, history and news sites which might form part of the curriculum, but parents don't wish children to access from home.
This company is selling *aggregate* data on kids browsing habits.
Or more likely aggregate data on school users (not all of which are children.)
The federal government is already involved. According to the article, one of the two purchasers of N2H2's data is the Defense Department. That doesn't give me warm fuzzies about the government's attitude toward privacy.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Junkbuster exists. Just configure it correctly :)
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
Will they be doling out statistics regarding how many perfectly legitimate sites are being blocked out by their own software?
But I'm sure this information will be very valuable to the marketroids who haven't figured out that kids like Britney Spears and the Backdoor Boys.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
Will we see companies like this selling other information that their software collects? Email addresses perhaps? Names? Maybe the folks running the porn sites will want to buy these things so thay no where to send their direct marketing spam.
IANAL but the federal FOIA may not apply in this case - you may need to submit a request complying with Nevada law.
I would think that since federal law overrides state law (anyone remember learning about the nullification debate in your high school history class?), the federal law would apply. Sure, Nevada may have slightly different requirements, but overall they would probably have to comply with the federal FOIA.
---
Check in...OK! Check out...OK!
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
My son is in Kindergarten. The other day his teacher sends home a CD from HP for some "kidsnet" thing they have. Basically if you read the docs it dials you into a private network with content from people who have paid HP to put their content on this network. It is a internet. I don't even have a modem (I love my DSL). I called the school and yelled at the teacher and the principal. Am I a good dad or what?
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Schools have a legal responsability to control what is in schools. This goes beyond the internet. That goes for language, smoking, drugs, actions, clothing, etc. Parents have a moral responsability for supervising their kids. Although I suppose it is technically "illegal" for parents to allow minors to view pornography and things like it, the chances of a parent getting sued for thousands (millions?) of dollars for that are much smaller than if a parent found out that students were able to view pornography on the 'net.
As far as direct supervision, that may be OK in grade schools, where computer time will almost always be in a classroom environment, but middle school and high school students are more likely to be alone, in a study hall, library, or some other similar environment.
One more reason that filtering is not a bad idea in schools... typos. Lets see, got to look up something on the president. Go to www.whitehouse.com, right? Try it sometime. It may take you to one of Clinton's favorite sites, but it's definitly NOT the whitehouse.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
Good point. I wonder if that can fall under labor laws because they are profitting from the children's efforts by selling kid-clicks. If the children did not web-surf, they wouldn't have the info to sell.
That's gotta fall under child labor.
/*drunk.. fix later*/
Now we can finally learn how many of those annoying hidden goatse.cx links were posted by preschoolers!
By the way, that ad for Oracle in the middle of the article was ridiculously large and distracting. It made it kind of tough to focus on the article. Bad trend . . .
As a victim of BESS, I tell you that any statistics they sell are no doubt terribly flawed. BESS blocks sites such as Slashdot, videogame related sites, and most pop culture sites; the very sites that appeal to the majority of the teenager demographic. So I end up trudging through parts of the net I would never visit normally.
Any company that buys into this is not getting their money's worth. Sure, I'll see their adds when I'm browsing at school, but is that what they really want? I don't (and can't) make purchases from school, so is my clickthrough of any worth to them?
Poetic justice, I guess.
The key point here is, without the current mandatory filters requirement, schools can balance the parents that want tight control and the free-speech advocates by limiting the number of computers that would present such a problem to a number that can be easily monitored by a staff member; you can still have effective computer learning and research, but having full internet access for a GRADE SCHOOL child while in school is not necessary for a good education.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Bah. This is all another form of Child Exploitation, in a completely other form. There seems to be this image of children as the great innocents, and the quintessence of purity. Ask any kid that's in Kindergarten or First Grade what bad words he's learned. Trust me, he'll be able to spew a few off already. Children aren't any purer than the parents that raise them, and the lowest common denomiator is highly frightening.
So up come these companies: NetNanny, N2H2, what have you, and prey on the very fears of all parents -- What is my little pure one learning that he shouldn't? -- and putting a price on it and turning a profit.
Wasn't that the point of child labor laws? Exploitation of Children was defined as using them for cheap labor, another means for turning a profit. So now, let's exploit children again -- this time, exploit the supposed innocence and purity -- and turn a quick million or two.
Instead of being afraid of children and wanting to protect them from the world -- up to and including age 18+ -- try to listen to them. Talk to them. Be open with them. Don't tell them that it's wrong to look at pictures of people having sex because you said so. Tell them that it's wrong because of the conditions that desperate women undergo to achieve the dream body or the dream relationship. Don't obscure, explain. Children may act childish, but reports show that children, as young as age seven, can come to rational conclusions and informed decisions about the world around them. All they need is guidance -- not censorship. Censorship is another form of obfuscation, and as we've learned from security, code, and other other geekly things around us, obfuscation just doesn't work in the real world.
UNICEF has a portion of their site dedicated to children's rights. Included in those rights is a right to education is the right to expression and information. Article 17 states that "Children shall have access to information from national and international sources. These materials should be beneficial, and those that are harmful to children shall be discouraged." (emphesis added). Not censored, but discouraged.
Teach your children the truth of what they see around them. The world is not a pretty place with dancing squirrels and singing birds, where rabbits and deer talk and frolick. No, the world is always in a state of chaos -- sometimes its simply less harmful at times. Wars occur, people get murdered, men and women get raped. Children take candy from strangers every day. Give them some ray of hope though, and let them think for themselves.
Children aren't pets or toys, they're human beings. Listen to them. Even the student teaches the master something new now and again.
-----
What's really scary is who's buying this information. Look at the end of the article. Their only two clients are listed: an educational website (makes perfect sense) and...
The Department of Defense. Why on earth does the Department of Defense need to know where kids are going on the internet? I'm scared...
Information doesn't want to be anthropomorphized. -AC
I'm sorry, I hope that this is a joke. Any class that claims to teach ethics is a waste of time. Ethics aren't learned by saying "this is wrong, and that is right" who the hell is anyone to tell anyone else how to live. Ethics should be taught as open discussion. Ungraded classes, that may be required, but are more for enlightenment than anything else.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
It isn't about filtering porn. It is more about the ability to view other websites. Many MANY MANY websites are miscategorized and blocked. MANY.
And MANY MANY MANY porn sites are not blocked, in fact its VERY easy to find porn sites that are not filtered if you know what you are doing.
Plus now N2H2 is selling information about viewing habits of children at school, when they are forced to utilize the BESS proxy by the damn stupid government here in the United States. Sadly there is too much money being slipped under the table for votes on certain issues....
N2H2's setup is more than just blocking porn, it often blocks my access to highly informational sites about C coding and even blocks stuff on gnu.org... which definately isnt porn or an online store.
Sorry, but you need to wake up and realize that it isn't all about some horny kid wanting to view porn in public.
Damn.
Ever need an online dictionary?
People are going on and on about why this is scary because it is selling out our children to corporations. I think these people are missing the point.
The real scary thing is at least some of these children are going to be reading Slashdot and clicking on links here...and when they do, and the marketting drones finally get this information, we are going to have...Goatsex Cola!
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
"I know it sounds bad - ' child suspended for wearing Pepsi Shirt on Coke Day' said principal Gloria Hamilton. "It really would have been acceptable...if it had just been in-house, but we had the regional president [of coke] here and people flew in from Atlanta to do us the honour of being resource speakers. These students knew we had guests." - quote from No Logo, Naomi Klien, page 95.
"...the in-school computer network ZapMe! doesn't merely seel advertising space to its sponsors: it also monitors students' paths as they surf the Net and provides this valuable market research, broken down by the students' sex, age and zip code, to its advertisers."
Ummm... last time I checked, virtually all publis schools are operated by local authorities, including the Las Vegas / Clark County School District. IANAL but the federal FOIA may not apply in this case - you may need to submit a request complying with Nevada law.
sulli
RTFJ.
Well, though they did provide nice fodder for press and authors looking for the thousands of ways America's youth are being raped by corporate America, ZapMe recently found itself fucked. Now it appears that they're "committed to creating advanced vertical networks for small to medium-sized businesses worldwide," whatever that is.
sulli
RTFJ.
What N2H2 is really doing here, is neither illegal, or immoral, but a perfectly reasonable business practice. Here's a fact: More children than ever are surfing the web these days. N2H2 is simply providing advertisers with a list of children's web-surfing habits and tendancies. They are in no way providing any information that could be used to trace individual surfers in any way. Television networks have been using this type of targeted advertising geared towards children for years. This is why commercials for cereal and action figures come on during Saturday morning cartoons. I am deeply offended that Taco would try to spread these slanderous lies!
-atrowe: Card-carrying Mensa member. I have no toleranse for stupidity.
Why don't we start an open source project to build a free software censorware product? I know. It's kind of oxymoronic, or maybe just moronic ;-) -- but bare with me here.
Think about it! Schools and libraries don't want censorware, and the American Library Association is challenging this law.
We don't want censorware either: it doesn't work, and the companies that make it often push radical conservative political agendas, that target a lot of ideas near and dear to us.
So let's make our own product. By controlling the development, we could make certain that the blocked sites list is as minimal as possible to satisfy the legal requirement. The ALA, schools, and libraries would like it for being
a) FREE software (budgets are important, after all), and
b) software that is made by people who are friendly to free speech.
In the meantime, we all continue to support the legal challenges. But in the event that the ever more conservative Supreme Court upholds the law, we also have a weapon to use in holding censorship at least in check. If someone is going to do censorship, then let it be a civil libertarian.
I'd be willing to work on such a project. I think I would enjoy sticking it to CyberSitter -- they once blocked the site of a friend of mine because he's pagan, and especially because he dared take a public stance against them.
Eris
I think N2H2 execs must not understand that The Simpons is a tragicomedy, and the episode on using kids' ideas and behaviour for marketing by subverting the school should *not* be the foundation for revenue streams.
They claim no schools have cancelled their service due to this. Did any of the schools KNOW about this? Is this tied to that wave program that got exposed during the initial voices from the helmouth series?
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
Unless you can organize a substantial base of parents and community members to support you, you are pissing in the wind.
If you are a school district, what scares you more?
1. The threat of ultra-conservative/liberal parents suing you for their kids accessing pornography, Neo-Nazi message boards, or a chat room that hooks them up with a potential child molester...
OR
2. The threat of free speech zealots suing you because kids can't access some legitimate sites.
What most folks don't understand is that outside of the federal $$ issue that has recently appeared, most school districts have installed blocking software already to cover their asses in case of lawsuit (and districts are easy targets). Even if the stuff is flawed, at least a district can argue that they installed the best available safeguards.
While there are certainly an incredible amount of great sites that are blocked by proxies like Bess, you have to understand that a district isn't going to get sued because a student *couldn't* access a site.
I am continually shocked at our consumerist society, especially when it targets our poor, impressionable children. The corporate dominance of US culture must end at once. If selling traffic analysis of children's web viewing habits while at school isn't the last straw we need to motivate us into action then I fear our society of individual freedoms may be lost.
I know this is going to generate some flame, but the only way to stop these abuses of our fundamental rights to privacy is for the federal government to get involved. We need regulation of these cash-bloated demons who would sell their grandmother's dentures as long as there was a little gold in them. Freedom of speach does NOT mean freedom to market your damn products to my child while he or she is attending class!
It is truly sad that we have reached a point in history where it is now unavoidably necessary for us to encourage further governmental control of some of our communications mediums. But, there is simply no other way for us to throw off the yoke of our profit-driven, capitalist opressors.
You can gain access to this same information by utilizing the Freedom of Info act, since schools are operated by the Federal Govt.
Below is a letter I recently sent to my school district in Las Vegas, NV:
Freedom of Information Officer
Network Services
Clark County School District
2832 E Flamingo Rd.
Las Vegas, NV 89121
Re: Freedom of Information Act Request
Dear officer:
Under the Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552) I would like to request the following materials from the Clark County School District (CCSD):
1) All documentation regarding the implementation of the Bess web proxy system provided to CCSD by N2H2. Including proxy configuration, network topology after installation, and the reasons for the Bess installation.
2) All access logs that are recorded by the Bess proxy filter. These logs should be provided in digital form, compressed using either ZIP or gzip compression algorithms.
3) Documentation regarding the effectiveness of Bess at blocking Internet sites deemed inappropriate for minors and sites that have been mis-categorized by Bess.
I am aware that I am entitled to make this request under the Freedom of Information Act, and if your agency response is not satisfactory, I am prepared to make an administrative appeal. Please indicate to me the name of the official to whom such an appeal should be addressed.
If my request is denied, I am entitled to know the reasons for denial.
I am aware that while the law allows your agency to withhold specified categories of exempted information, you are required by law to release any segregable portions that are left after the exempted material has been deleted from the data I am seeking.
I also request a waiver of all fees for this request. Disclosure of the requested information to me is in the public interest because it is likely to contribute significantly to public understanding of the operations or activities of the government, and is not in my commercial interest. I am classified as noncommercial news media under the Freedom of Information Act.
Sincerely,
xxx
Anyways, they responded back by sending me marketting materials from N2H2. Well, its time to re-request the information and "be more specific."
Anyways, this does work well for pissing them off and scaring them to death, plus you can see how ineffective the filters really are.
x
Ever need an online dictionary?
Lets summarize the situation:
Doesn't sound so cool does it?
Where does the line get drawn for what is OK to watch and monitor and what is private?