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Juno And Privacy
Karl Weiss writes: "Section 2.5 of the Juno Privacy Policy has some very interesting statements in it - you authorize them to download an app to track your usage and you can't do anything about it, you are to keep your computer on 24/7, or give them the right to make your computer call out at their desire, and they can install a screen saver on your computer with ads, and you can't get rid of it. Obviously this bothers me, but the real kicker as far as I'm concerned is that they will allow third parties to use the downloaded software. Does M$ looking for pirated software sound like a player? Or what happens if someone cracks the software? Does that open your hard drive data to anyone? As the senior network instructor at a large private computer school, I have advised faculity and staff to not use Juno due to these requirments." It looks like the few remaining free ISPs are searching for ways to make up advertising income during the dot-com meltdown, and the "solution" they've come up with is to make use of their users' computers to do distributed processing. Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?
And in exchange for agreeing to the above, Shell will give you unlimited free gasoline.
Can you imagine how many people will accept that?
They'd drive the other companies out of business...
What happens if we have a rolling blackout? Will Juno sue me for not buying my own generator?
... You agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs or expenses resulting from the continuous operation of your computer, including without limitation any associated charges for electricity. If you are a resident of the State of California, Juno may require you to purchase and operate a power generator or other alternate energy source in order to ensure the continuous operation of your computer. Juno is not responsible for the costs associated with the operation of any power source. If you are a not a resident of California, Juno may still require you to purchase and install an Uninteruptible Power Supply (UPS). Furthermore, you must obtain written permission to reboot your computer. You agree to set your screensaver to activate after 5 seconds of inactivity. Juno may require you to disconnect your mouse and other input devices which may interfere with the operation of the screensaver (which is an integral part of the service). You must monitor your computer continuously in case the "Computational Software" locks-up or requires assistance. This assistance may require the user to perform simple math. In case of a system lock-up (crash), you must reboot your system in a timely manner (within 30 seconds). If these duties are not performed properly (as determined by Juno), you agree that Juno may -- at its own discretion -- sieze your computer and operate it in accordance with this contract at a location of Juno's choosing until the expiration of your contracted service. You agree to pay any costs associated with operating the computer during this time, including electricity and storage fees.
2.5
Ok, I went a little overboard...
On my P600, I only got through one or two 'batches' in a day if leave it run, and this I would condiser to be an mid-to-top range system. The people that will be using Juno will most likely have low-to-mid range PCs (why else would they be using a free Juno), and I would expect one 'batch' of folding@home data would take several days to complete.
Thus, if I were Juno, all I know is that I would have to send enough 'batches' to last a month on one of these systems, and expect that the user would be calling up every week or so, as to get their results and then to put another new week of problems to be solved.
You need to remember that the way most of the distributed programs work is that they work in large, independent chucks of data; they don't have to talk to the controlling process as often as typical pallarel processing data.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
If you don't like it - don't sign it.
Mind you, they obviously think that they will be left with enough subscribers after all the complainants have gone to make the system viable.
It's like using e-mail at work - if you don't want someone else to control your machine, move.
At least, for these people, there is a choice. There's enough Big Brother gear out there already (or coming) that is a hell of a lot more worrying
--
"I do not speak for my employers, though they are controlled from my Teddy's huge pulsating brain."
We reserve the right to:
eat breakfast at your house
service or get serviced by your wife
dress up your kids in funny costumes
sell your dog
impersonate you while we rob a bank
take all your money
make you cluck like a chicken
tattoo you
shave your head, laugh at you and point
take all your money
spy on you
threaten you
prosecute you
take all your money
allow other people to spy on you
allow other people to threaten or prosecute you
make you dance naked around a fire
take all your money
If you can read this you already agreed to it.
However, with this change in the privacy statement, I may encourage her to move over to some other service!!!
--
Your Servant, B. Baggins
I must admit I aws someehwat confused - being a regular buyer from the Juno Website - It's my favourite way to get hot Vinyl from the UK....
Then I realised this was juno.com instead of juno.co.uk.
juno.com are a load of wankers
You've obviously never ran SETI@Home or RC5. The uplink speed is irrelevant to parallel processing. It downloads large chunks of data, analyzes them offline for a while, and then uploads results. It is not a continuous up/down link.
What's the origin of TANSTAAFL? The first place I saw it was a Heinlein book... Maybe the Cat Who Walks Through Walls?
---
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
Of course, I've read everything he wrote, just forgot my timeline for a second. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was practically a libertarian manifesto, so of course that's where it would appear. Didn't the Loonies even put it on their flag?
---
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
So, if you're a Juno user, you have to use the service to tell if there's a new agreement. Conversely, you basically agree to it by using the service, so you're stuck every time you decide to dial-up -- "is there a new agreement which signs all my property over? I don't know...but I'll find out!"
I hate licenses distributed in this way, changable without proper informing. You'd be a fool to sign a contract in the first place that can be superceded by an update on a webpage.
Go for it. I have two P100s that I was got for US$0 since the the school that had received them as a donation found they couldn't run Windows well enough to be useful. And, no, they weren't interested in having Linux installed. I hang my head in shame at this advocacy failure). At least I was able make use of these systems and extend the useful lifetime of the local landfill by a bit. One of them found a new lease on life as a nice little system for C programming (the wife was taking a course). The other now lives on, after the addition of a couple of oleder IDE drives, as an LPRng/Samba server that sits in the basement and allows me to print from my Linux boxen and the wife and kids to have more disk space and print from the Windows box in the spare bedroom. I wouldn't even want to consider running Windows on a machine of that vintage. But with Linux it is quite usable (though X is a bit pokey depending on what you're trying to do).
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
I guess you aren't allowed to use Juno from a laptop...
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Stealing? How can it be stealing, if they:
- Tell you ahead of time
- You agreed to it
- You are receiving something in exchange for it (internet access)
- You can always say No and switch to another ISP
?It will make sense if customer backlash and market forces kill this. It will be a travesty of justice if lawsuits kill this.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Actually, if you read the article that was pointed to on Juno's site, you would realize that they are going to be using it for bioinformatics research. They even hired on a leader in the field to head up the project.
-- Bryan
End result? Another company with a death wish and no concept of how the Internet and the world work.
Goodbye Juno.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
One by one, we have watched free ISP services dry up and blow away. Now we are getting onerous usage agreements. Folks, I expect that this is the death knell for the free ISP.
I wonder, though, if we will see a time where internet service becomes a commodity item like power or telephone? If so, when? What about folks like us who want full server support in our homes?
Mostly rhetorical questions, but I am curious. In my area, there are numerous options for v.90 dial-up ISPs, but only one option for fast access (@home, ugh). No DSL, no choices for ISP with the cable infrastructure.
Of course, I have used the free ISPs in the past to handle internet access when I've been travelling, as @home's dialup access is breath-takingly expensive.
I'm rambling.
See ya,
Mike
Well, if you are getting "free" Juno service (if such a thing still exists), you should really just get a decent job and kick out $15-$20 a month for a real dialup account.
On the one hand, this is an egregious violation of the consumer, but on the other hand, it does present the possibility of really harnessing the power of every computer connected to the net. I think if ISPs start programs like this, they should either be opt-in (e.g., for some discount), or have some very strict limitations, like most of the distributed computing projects.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I was especially impressed by the following clause which requires you to let their software make outgoing modem calls - at your expense:
If your usage of the Service is infrequent, Juno's ability to obtain the results of completed computations may be impaired. Consequently, you expressly permit and authorize Juno to initiate a telephone connection from your computer to Juno's central computers using a dial-in telephone number you have previously selected for accessing the Service; Juno agrees that it shall exercise such right only to the extent necessary, as determined in Juno's sole discretion, to upload the results of completed computations to Juno in a timely fashion; and you agree that, as between you and Juno, you shall be responsible for any costs and expenses (including without limitation any applicable telephone charges) resulting from the foregoing.
-- "The installation program has located your credit card number and is ordering other software packages you need"
FROM: The Cable Company
We have changed our Terms of Service. You hereby agree to leave your television on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with the volume at least 75% of maximum. Furthermore you agree not to watch Public Television or any channel without advertisements. You agree not to use your television for the viewing of videotapes, videodiscs, DVDs, video games, or any service other than we provide. You agree to sit in the couch in front of said TV at least six (6) hours every day, and to consume at least eight (8) servings of food products advertised on our service.
Why not just put this in your PROFILE EXEC?
'CP SET TIMEOUT OFF'
By default, our system kicks you off after 1 hour.
or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse.
of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)
Wouldn't it be even MORE advantageous to the people who keep their computer in the bedroom? You wouldn't have to run down to the basement to get your vibrator when you were busy checking out the pr0n. Easy, instant access.
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
-The Reverend (I am not a Nazi nor a Troll)
=(.\')=
i love how the above post is a joke and people moderated it as insightful.
it's not insightful you morons, it's sarcastic. Juno is actually quite a good service. yes, their banner ad application/browser is a pain, but hell, it's free and I get a nice 56kbps connection every time.
what happens is that when you connect to Juno, it starts up the Juno browser which includes the banner ad server/tracker in a window. You can't get this window off the screen, and to close the window, you disconnect yourself. Darn. But the window does not track any usage outside of the Juno browser. So you can be connected through Juno, but using Nutscrape, and it's not tracking where you go. Hell, this is really no different than AllAdvantage, 'cept instead of being paid $20/month, you're getting a free ISP ($20/month value)
What's the difference? And part of the contract requires the application to make connections to the internet and install software... the software it's installing is new banner ads and updates to the browser.
Hell, rant on me because I'm supporting Juno. But it's a good service, they've always looked out for their customers by giving them free service, or a fairly inexpensive alternative, and the quality as well as the customer service is deserving of the money you pay (unlike many other ISP's)
This is like saying "AOL has bad terms of service." The nerds for whom the news is don't give a flying fuck. We've all got nailed dedicated connections, static IPs and are willing to pay for the service. Anyone still using a modem much less a free internet service isn't really in the demographic, are they?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
True. Note that Klerck is usually just a goat troll and his posts start at -1, but today he has posted an accurate and useful tidbit. If anyone has a spare mod point, please reward him.
I work in K12 distance education, so I deal with this issue all the time. The Children Online Privacy Protection Act specifies that internet sites are not allowed to collect personal information from anyone age 12 or less without parental permission (preferably in writing). The obvious flip side is that age 13 or older is fair game.
...because Juno is not a monopoly. Anyone using them is trading some of his time, privacy and computing resources for internet access. I've only ever met one Juno user. He was an utter idiot (one of those 'computers are only tools' idiots) and I don't think he'd object to this policy even if he had the attention span to read it.
What would really send my blood pressure up is a cable modem provider or similar bandwidth monopolist making these concessions mandatory for users. As long as Juno is not depriving people of choice, they can implant chips in their victims' skulls for all I care.
Yes, that's the true nightmare. It's offensive enough that some areas are only served by cable modem monopolists who favor Windows, ban customer servers, cap upstream bandwidth, cache web content, and of course do a terrible job adminning their own servers. A bandwidth provider that serves 90% of the market while leaving 10% angry and out in the cold could succeed and could remove the incentive for competing firms.
I don't think the evil DSL provider needs to be free, though. Remember when we had broadcast TV (free, with ads) and cable ($$, no ads) ? We ended up with cable that costs money and has ads. So we could end up with a situation where *every* DSL provider does this, no matter how much they charge.
This isn't going to work. Distributed computing over 56K dialup modems is simply commercially infeasible.
Why? Because an embarassingly parallel commercially interesting problem is an oxymoron. The interesting problems are ones which require inter-node communication of at very least tens of MB/day.
Computer scientists have known this for decades. That's why linpack is used as a supercomputing benchmark, while RC5 is not.
The interesting problems are the hard ones, the ones which aren't embarassingly parallel. The ones which can't run off of a 56K dialup modem.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Cross Juno with any Free DSL service and you get a privacy invasion racket that will have all the bandwidth they need to send them all the data they want concerning you, without your average user ever really noticing it.
If enough clueless users sign up, and these free DSL services can survive on selling personal data, this could knock a lot of other for-pay DSL services out of business. You can then view a microcosm of hell itself when certain cities are only serviced by Juno-like free DSL providers, and the only way some people can get online, is through these people.
The 2 big barriers, of course, are
1) consumer awareness of the dangers of a Juno-like service (which is actually pretty high);
2) the danger that the free DSL/dialup services will collapse because they cannot meet operating costs with the income they're getting from advertising / personal information trafficking.
The advantage the Juno type provider has, of course, is that they are free. They can also make deals with e-tailers (like Amazon) to get their customers lower prices, etc.
Suddenly, all that Biblical talk about the mark of the beast, is starting to make sense...
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
presently my dad uses juno to do his email. that and solitaire is all the computer ever gets used for. you know i don't know whether to care or not. if they want the few random processor cycles from a 300Mhz pc that is mostly off and doesn't have a dedicated phone line they are welcome to them. So long as i don't have to constantly show my dad how to send his email. I mean have you used Juno. Its KISS. (keep it simple stupid) My dad needs that. I need him to have it. I'm thinking Emacs is a bit beyond him.
-
And since it is against the agreement to reverse-engineer the software, you are not allowed to even try to find out just WHAT it may be doing (above and beyond what they tell you). And if you do, they'll probably invoke the DMCA just like in that filtering software (sorry I forgot which company) vs reverse-engineer legal fiasco that happened in the not too distant past.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
or buy a vibrator and tape it to your mouse. That would work too, and would defeat any "use of software to decry juno of revenue... blah blah..." arguements.
of course, this wouldn't be good for people in conservative homes, or people like me that have the computer in their bedroom. (I can deal with my 15 cooling fans, but a vibrator? woah!)
---
Desperation is a stinky cologne
"2.1. You agree to provide Juno with accurate, current and complete information, to the extent required by Juno for your registration as a subscriber of the Service or at any time thereafter, and to maintain and to update this information as required to keep it accurate, current and complete. You agree in your enrollment and in your use of the Service not to impersonate any other person or entity, and you represent that you are 13 years of age or older."
;)
You only have to be 13 years old!!! It's bad enough to exploit people in general, but now they are going to exploit children. And I thought saturday morning cartoons were bad about commercials.
Now the extra computer in your kids room will have a trojan virus (juno) on it transmitting every site your kid goes to back to juno. Then of course they can have it dial out to them. It's sad, I remember when we didn't have to read license agreements they were.... wait, no i don't nevermind, they have always sucked. It's just really bad, because the average computer user doesn't realize "big" companies do these sorts of things and probably never read the agreements.
And of course we can't forget what a security risk juno could possibly be, but I guess it's only a smudge in light of the OS it runs on
Would there be any way to send emails to all Juno users, bringing this clause to their attention? This is an extremely scummy piece of legalese and should be shot down before others think they can get away with it.
From Juno's website: "The Juno Virtual Supercomputer Project will make use of patented technology Juno currently employs in connection with its display of advertising to download computational tasks to subscribers' computers for processing offline during time when such subscribers are not using their computers. The results of such offline computations will then be uploaded to Juno's central computers during a subsequent connection, in much the same way that Juno currently collects responses to the advertisements it shows offline. Applications will run as "screen savers" on the computers of participating subscribers when their machines would otherwise be idle, performing calculations when the computer is on but not in use. " Does this sound to anyone else like they are trying to patent SETI online's technology? Distributed computing using a screensaver to capture idle cycles. --Chris
--Chris
"I never metadata I didn't like."
Admittedly I had a Juno account. Actually I still do because I can't cancel it. I called their toll-free number to cancel, and was informed that you have to log-in to do so. Well, I deleted the software a while ago when I stoped using it and didn't actually cancel the account because I figured it wasn't worth the effect (could never actully connect anyway). Now to cancel the account I would have to reinstall the software, agreeing to the new terms which I refuse to do. And I am therefore stuck with an account that I can't get rid of. Their supervisor insists that this isn't a problem, IT IS A PROBLEM. I don't know what else to do about it. Whoever, if anyone would like to send large, frequent emails to my account that I can't get rid of, feel free, the address is gimpysquid@juno.com
What really strikes is that Juno has brought in Yuri Rozenman, formerly of Applied Biosystems and with 13 years of experience in the bioinformatics field, to head up the project as vice president in charge of the Virtual Supercomputer Network. (source: here). The link between Applied Biosystems and informatics is the automation and analasys of genetical sequences ... collecting data on all those people
- this gives me the creeps - can you imagine
Yes, they do. After all, could it be that they are taking a cue from open source projects like distributed.net and using it to maybe make some money? What criminals! How dare they run a business!
1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work. 2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.
Yep, they will kill you. Seriously, what is so bad about letting a company use your clock cycles for goods / services? Hell, enough people do it for free. Maybe Juno should try cracking RC-5 and you would be less angry at them.
3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know. 4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.
Whether they reserve the right to upload anything on your computer to their servers or not, do you think it might be possible that they are uploading the results they are paying you to compute? Yes, paying you in the form of a PPP connection.
5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.
Oh, come on. This is just whining now. Do you really, honestly, and truly believe that your computer is going to melt because its calculating sin 34 to 5943 decimal places instead of rendering images of toasted demons all over your monitor? A clause like this is pretty common in all software, even back in the shareware days when programmers would abdicate themselves from responsibility of what their program unintentially did. As a user, it is usually worth taking the risk. Businesses that like to crash people's computers don't generally make money (with the exception of MS)
6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It
Yeah. I want that job.
7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.
Are you going to blame Juno for their users not reading the contract? You have to be pretty lame to think that there isn't a price to pay for a service like Juno. I used a free ISP service for a bit. I had no illusions about the rights I was having taken away from me for it. Look, most people don't give a rat crap if someone is looking through their garbage or the last 5 internet sites they visited. Its useless information to them.
Yes, companies like this are sorta gay. I think its rather dumb too, and the business model is likely to fail. I agree there. I even agree that people should be more mindful of what they agree to when they click through things on their computer. Totally true. And companies shouldn't try to hide their agreements, but make them upfront. A click through licence is pretty up front. It takes like 1 minute to scan through one of those things and look for nasty buggers. People who don't do it are ignorant or lazy (or both).
My point is, that Juno shouldn't be flamed for offering a service like this. They aren't violating anyone's rights. Instead, people should be educated about what they can get into with these free services, and should be mindful of what they are giving up, and if they are willing to do so. I think that the power of data mining w/ targeted advertising, etc is underestimated by the general public. That's because it is new. People will eventually see that those of us who guard our privacy do so not because we are paranoid, but because we don't want to be subject to the immense power of targeted mass-advertising. It is annoying, and sometimes it is downright uncomfortable. But as long as they don't realize it, companies like Juno will still be around, and will continue to have the right to run their business as they see fit.
Obviously they plan on generating their revenue by winning every cracking compo on distributed.net by using every Juno user's pc for their own team.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Jesus Christ on a crutch... AOL actually looks good compared to this!
Hey, wait a sec... if you're a Juno user in Texas, and someone shows up to turn your computer back on, if you tell them to get off your property and they don't, you can shoot them...
Also, if they enter your house (or apartment) while no one is there, you can probably hit them with illegal entry. They might be allowed access to your computer, but I'm damn sure that you have to be present at the time. Otherwise who knows what else they may have done while in your place.
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Would this have anything to do with the fact that Netzero recently sued Juno over a patent on their ad-delivery window concept? A story I believe I submitted to /. some time ago and never saw. Is this Juno's way of getting some miniscule amount of revenue back?
I would provide a link to the page on Netzero where I saw notice of the suit, but it appears to have moved.
One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
Let's face it, juno is at their ends. This is a last ditch effort to gain some investment funding from somebody. New angle, give us $10 million so we can last another year... The fact is the revenue is not going to be made with this policy, the free isp model is 100% flawed in the current market, and well i don't blame them for trying, they are trying to feed their families, and the freenet idea is a very noble cause. Only way i ever see the freenet idea working is if the government comes in and backs it up for those (elderly, lower income) with some of our hard earned tax money.
===sam=== free nessus vulnerability scan = www.vulnerabilities.org
I don't know any major national ISP that allows the above. You can usually get local access if you know someone at an ISP, but you know that that friend leaving is likely to be the end of that option. I came across one DSL operator that offers all of the above and they don't operate in my area.
I suspect Juno's T&Cs, while extreme, are probably the sign of things to come. Until most people are willing to pay a fair price for Internet access, everyone will find their options disappearing. An interesting twist on the term "The "free" market".
--
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
If they don't make this VERY explicit in installation, etc. I think they might be in for
A. Backlash, i.e. everyone taking off.
B. Lawsuit. As far as I'm concerned, if a company(M$) did this to me, that's stealing cycles, power, and bandwidth.
Here is the thing. Why should we not blame Juno for this? It is true that companies are allowed to do what is within the law. I dont really care if they are doing this or not. I will not use their service and tell others not to do so. But most people dont read the liscense and just agree to whatever pops on their screen. Does that make it right? No.
And yes I know their program will not hurt any processor or hardware. And most people wont even know it is running. The point I was trying to make is, How FAR will companies go to make money? I am seriously thinking about installing this and putting a filter just to see WHAT data it transmits.
These are the sort of tactics by companies that have no monetary income except for advertising. Since most people in general hate advertising and just ignore it, Juno is looking for a way to make money. Their idea is not even original. SETI@Home have been doing this for years, and I have NO problem with their software running on my computers becuase it is for genuine research, sort of. Who knows what Juno will be doing, they don't tell you.
The thing that I also do not like is that they may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and you cannot disable the screensaver that runs while processing. Last time I checked, I payed for my computers and I will turn them off whenever I damn well please. I'm starting to rant, so I'll just shut up now.
Lord Arathres
stainless steel
I believe that this Juno accident is only the first one. "we" were lucky because someone spotted it, but who knows how may software are installed and how many licence agreements are subscribed that will allow even worse things?
.005$ (inflaction will soon bring it to 20$, but that's another story)
I think that Juno can decide to wake you up in the morning by playing some high-volume Disco music (and that would be funny), or just decide to pursue legally ANYONE who accidently turned off their computer.
I wonder if they should sue microsoft for making unreliable operating systems that cannot stay up more than few days, and so preventing any user to obey the licence terms of juno (and that would be scary).
I wonder if we're slowly going back to the old days, when people weren't thinking about making money online. Perhaps in 10 years we'll have 2 different networks, e-internet or some weird trendy name network (created to make money), and a 'undernet' in its real meaning, where people ("geeks") will pursue the real goal of a worldwile network: communication.
Personally, I don' care too much about this Juno accident: they'll sue users, make their computer a slave, recreate Big Brother or whatever (think about users who have a webcam and uses Juno...). On the long run they aren't affecting those who have enough knowledge to hack around.
Freedom trough the power of human mind will survive. Losers will get caught in a Web of dot-coms doomed to eat each other forever.
just my
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
Ethics are typically those things we can justify morally so that we feel it is right. Therefore, the implication is that ethics is a subjective measure, at times measured by an individual and at other times measured by a collective society. A society which believes that, for example, every child is a living human from first fertilization, would find it unethical to clone humans for scientific purposes, as it would be "experimenting on humans." However, a society which perhaps puts the value on life after they pass some rite of initiation (mind you, only an example), might see no ethical problem with cloning humans, as they are seen as "sub-human" or inferior.
The term "Right" suggests some form of unchanging absolute which society cannot define because it is defined outside of society. The idea of what this "Right" is typically comes from religions (such as Christianity, Muslim/Islam, and others) and suggests that no matter whether society says it is right or wrong, it still measures up to this idea of absolute "Right". As a Christian myself, I believe there are four absolutes - An absolute Right, an absolute Wrong, an absolute God, and that everything in the world is relative. So it was merely my religious beliefs reflected within my writing.
Information is the catalyst for revolution
This is clearly posted in their privacy policy and terms of service.
...which, assuming Juno is your only ISP, they can change without notice while you're offline, then you implicitly agree to while you connect to them, before you even have a chance to read it. Dirty pool.
People are smart enough to read and understand TOS's, if they choose not to then they shouldn't act surprised when revelations like this occur.
The problem with this logic is that, quite frankly, our society goes out of it's way to tell people "You're not smart enough to understand legalese - that's why laywers go to law school" -- so the average Joe, who may or may not actually be smart enough, and posess an advanced enough vocabulary to comprehend the legalese, generally doesn't think that they CAN understand it, so why bother reading it. Most people in the US at least are sheep. They trust others implicitly when it comes to stuff like this. They trust Juno NOT to have crap like this in their agreement -- not that that's right at all, I'm just making a point here.
Using Juno is a choice. If you don't like their choices, DON'T use them.
I agree wholeheartedly - but WE'RE not the ones who need to know about this. The "sheep" need to know about this. I like the idea that someone came up with about spamming Juno's users with an email about exactly what their TOS allows...
Juno is without an explicit cost, but nothing in life is free.
Ah yes. True again. But Juno goes out of their way to hide the nefarious stuff in the legalese of their agreement. Nowhere on their website or in their advertizing materials do they even pay lip service to "Computational Software" or "You must keep your computer on 24/7 or we reserve the right to take it away from you, store it in our bunker in the middle of the pacific ocean, and charge you for the electricity and long-distance charges". Their advertrizing basically ammounts to "Free, easy email! Use us!"
It's a stunning slap to the face in the name of "always read the fine print" though.
You or I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole, but there actually is a fair fraction of the public which doesn't care who knows where they browse, and which doesn't have any idea of the other risks. After all, many people don't mind their local drug store tracking their purchases through discount cards. And if purchase data helps the drugstore keep the things people buy in in stock and makes the ad flyers they receive more likely to have the stuff they want in them, why, that's just making a happier (if violated) customer.
ISP's (and to a lesser extent, portals) can go even farther, and anticipate interest in particular products based on browsing behavior. Yet another step toward happy consumerdom: if they get good enough at their tracking, you'll never have to see an ad you aren't interested in. Joe consumer is supposed to enjoy that his privacy is being pimped to the highest bidder. And, sadly enough, there is evidence that this may indeed be so. (That doesn't mean that Juno will be able to actually pull off this marketer's wet dream, of course.)
That said, the distributed-computing angle of this is actually pretty interesting as a way of generating income for Juno. It will be a lot easier for them, as an ISP, to administer this sort of system than for a stand-alone enterprise to do so. Yes, the security issues are mind-boggling, and the near-inevitable scandal that results will probably kill them (if nothing else does first). But it's an idea that will likely succeed at some point, even if Juno fails.
The issue isn't how often you need to reboot, or how long it takes to come back up. It's why is it necessary AT ALL? This is the difference between availability (which allows support to take down systems for routine maintenance) and mean-time-to-failure (the most common measure of reliability).
Excluding hardware problems, if a computer <b>requires</b> a reboot to avoid problems there's only two possible causes: either resources are being consumed and not released as appropriate (the biggest headache with Netscape), or coding errors are causing random corruption of data structures. Since Windows tends to "flake out" instead of announcing "resource not available," it sounds like it's random corruption of data structures.
Nobody is stupid enough (I hope) to say that Unix is totally bug-free, but its architecture limits the damage a buggy application can do to others, and the system itself, so it's common to hear of heavily loaded systems running for several years without problem.
On the other hand, a mostly idle Windows system will usually become unusable within a week. In practice, I've rarely seen a MIS department that didn't recommend a "preventative reboot" nightly, or at least every other night. This suggests that the code contains a tremendous number of very serious coding errors -- and there are very, very few products where a MTTF of a few days to a week is acceptable. Could you imagine using a refrigerator which had to be unpluggedand reach room temperature weekly, or else it might go beserk and either freeze the food rock-hard or heat up like an oven?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
There is probably lots of stuff on most peoples computers that is not send around on the Internet (personal letters, job-related documents, etc). So I would say there is a great difference!
Compare, hidden cameras are installed in most public areas, but most likely not in your bedroom (unless you are a pervert).
I just read the whole policy and wow, they just keep on getting better.
1. They can download stuff to your computer and make it do work.
2. It works like a screen saver and you are not ALLOWED to disable it. You also cannot un-install Windows or they will simply kill you.
3. They can make your computer call their servers to upload results and any other thing they find on your computer, because you wont know.
4. They may require you to keep your computer on 24 hours a day, and oh by the way are NOT responsible for the electricity it consumes. Why should they be, you're stupid not to have read the policy in the first place.
5. They are not responsible for any damages caused by your computer working on a problem while you are not on it. This will probably include very intensive Mathematical Calculations that I know a overclocked processor will just love.
6. They can send someone to your house to turn your computer on if you leave it off. Why not. It would be funny. That same person can also connect your computer back to the phone line becuase you disconnected it because it was calling their servers 5 states away.
7. They can all laugh at you for actually agreeing to this. Then having Jim win the office pool becasue he guessed right on the amount of people that never will read the agreement anyway.
Finally Juno can do anything it damn well programs its software to do on your computer all in the name of Freedom from Paying for the NET!
Come on People bend over and pay $20 a month for a real ISP, one that doesn't basically put an employee looking over your shoulder at your computer anytime you use it.
I dont see how companies like this actually work.
Lord Arathres
stainless steel
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Guess what? Juno isn't free. it simply charges a different pound of flesh. And, as it keeps finding that it can't survive on what it's getting from you, it raises it's price. Only their price isn't cash.
If this doesn't finally kill them off, I'll be amazed. I see it as a sign of desperation that they've finally hit this level of invasion to try to find ways to avoid actually charging money like everyone else.
Juno is simply proving that putting it on the internet doesn't make it immune to business realities -- or Darwin.
Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome = When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell
..and they expect that of windows systems? Bwuhaha.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
--
The imp hits!
Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
... to read the legalese in these User Agreements carefully. I don't know about anyone else, but I often just click "I agree" to avoid having to read through 20 pages of badly written pseudo-English that mostly looks like it's an extremely verbose version of a copyright symbol.
... what have I agreed to so far?! Call my lawyer!
I'm getting slightly nervous here
I actually proposed something like that in a department meeting held on April 1 back in 1980 (maybe 1981) so those who were running long simulations wouldn't get disconnected by the silly IBM terminal controller from the campus VM/CMS system. No keyboard activity for fifteen minutes and you got clobbered. (Tentative funding for the project was approved until initial project team discussions revealed that the only place where anyone could remember seeing one of the birds was at a Stuckey's on the Ohio turnpike and enthusiasm for the project waned quickly.)
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
You agree to the following:
1. Service
1.1. This contract is binding.
1.2. But not on us.
2. Your Obligations
2.1. You give us the right to know anything about you that takes our fancy.
2.2. Or about anyone else, for that matter.
2.3. You cough up any connection charges. Notice how we keep this separate from paragraph 2.5.
2.4. You agree to eat spam.
2.5. pH33r u5! w3 @re 1337 h4x0r5. We will make your PC dial our POPs. They might even be local calls. W3 0wn j00r 5cr33n 54v3r. We want your pr0n. We wish to use your computer in a distributed processing scheme for our company's purposes.
2.6. You acknowledge that the Service is provided only for personal use by you and members of your household, and not for corporate or excessive commercial use or for use by organizations or other groups of users. Unless they're us.
2.7. You may or not get your email, our distributed processing requirements notwithstanding. We cannot plan or manage our servers, so there's no telling how long your mail's going to sit on our server.
3. Content
3.1. We can't possibly take any responsibility for or action over norty stuff floating about on the net. Unless you put it there. Or tried to.
3.2. If you're stealing stuff, we don't even want to know about it.
3.3. Oh, and we own your IP, too.
4. Software License
4.1. We'll even let you use the software by which we own you.
4.2. Hell, we'll even let you inf^Hstall it on other peoples' PCs!
4.3. Until you try to exercise your fair use rights.
4.4. Or even export it.
4.5. Or work for the guv'mint.
4.6. We really do own you.
5. Fees
5.1. You even enjoy the privilege of paying for all of this.
5.2. And there's just so many fun ways to do it!
5.3. And for us to collect it.
5.4. And, what's more, we'll just do it for you!
5.5. But you still get to pay for non-free (beer) stuff.
6. No Warranties
6.1. No kidding.
6.2. No, really!
6.3. No warranties here.
6.4. None here, either, no siree!
7. Indemnification
Nor responsibility, either.
8. Termination
8.1. We can cut you off at any time we like. Anything you put on our servers can no longer be accessed by you. Not that you ever owned it, anyway.
8.2. If you don't like it, you can always leave. After you pay us.
9. Miscellaneous
9.1. Don't even think of trying to slime out of this contract.
9.2. Put your lawyers away. If any part of this agreement is held to be unenforceable, we're going to enforce it anyway. We have more money than you.
9.3. And bought the laws to protect us.
10. For Quebec Residents Only
Our legal staff can't speak French.
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Athy, athier, athiest.
Will Juno users realize what they are agreeing to?
;-)
My experience with Juno users is that they have been of two types. The first type is people who were dislocated from their previous ISP, typically AOL or Compuserve by their parents, and installed Juno to be able to get back online without their parents knowledge. The second type is of people who have no clue what this "Internet" thing is they keep hearing about, and they sure as gosh darn heck don't wanna have to pay, so they use a free server, and really don't even use it.
Of course, I'm omitting the third type, which are skr1pt k1dd13s who want to think they are secure from tracking by using these free servers, but I don't really count them as people, but more as illiterate brutes
In the first case, the kids don't care how they get online as long as they can get back to their chat/message boards/surfing/porn, and in the second case, they are too baffled by legalese to ever realize whats going on. As for the skr1pt k1dd13s, heck, let Microsoft get them for hacking their servers and stealing their source code, its no skin off my back to see those brats busted.
I think the bigger question instead of "Do Juno users realize what they are agreeing to" is "Is this ethical? And more importantly, is this right?"
Information is the catalyst for revolution