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KDE Installer Project
An Anonymous Coward writes: "There have been countless requests from KDE users, on the dot, on the lists, and even elsewhere, for a KDE Installer and Updater. Nick Betcher (aka Error403) has stepped up to the challenge and now needs your help to make this project really happen. His current code is in CVS and the project is in active development. The install starts off with an intro/detection screen, prompts the user for the type of installation, prompts for the destination of the KDE installation, and then prompts for the packages to install (see all the screenshots)."
If we insist on standardization, we run the risk of cutting off future innovation.
Because the formats are open, old formats can be converted to new.
Consider Linux binaries. The basic format is pretty standardized. Is that cutting off innovation? Unnecessary differences, on the other hand, are an incredible obstacle to progress. Consider how many programmer lifetimes are wasted dealing with byte-swapping, or because Unix, Mac, and PC ASCII files use different end-of-line codes. And there's no real advantage to any one of these.
I think the time has come that we've learned enough about what is good enough and what isn't, and need to try to merge a lot of these efforts into one great installer, rather than a bunch of limited ones.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
The developers over at KDE flatly objected to building a KDE installer and held firm for around 2 years. If not longer. However as KDE has spread to more and more newbies. The demands have grown.
Someone has finally caved in and written an app which is functional in it's 1st public release. Meaning he probably didn't start last weak.
Now the trick is to get distributions to adopt this and extend it for none KDE apps and tune it to the specific distribution. It's not like it's from a company that can sell services around it as is and it doesn't make sense for free projects to spend too much time on the unnecessary incompatibilities between distributions.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I can't believe people are bashing this guy for saying
"If your not a newbie, or you don't like this idea, please dont talk about it."
and calling him *egocentric*.
First of all, Slashdot has been completely infiltrated by people who want to do NOTHING but troll, piss people off, and do nothing constructive. If I posted a question to Slashdot, I would have to be prepared to ignore the majority of the posts as they would serve no constructive purpose whatsoever, and would just be attempting to debase the entire idea. This place is literally collapsing because of the amount of CRAP that people spew.
Now, this guy wants to make an installer FOR NEWBIES THAT WANT AN INSTALLER. That
is ALL he is writing this program for. I'll never use it. Many people here will never use it, but
maybe my dad or mom or other new Linux users will use it. However, people here can't
seem to get the concept of live and let live run through their heads. That's why we have a
constant bashing of Mozilla each time a new release comes out, by people who REALLY want to run lynx. So he's going to get all kinds of CRAP and INCENDARY suggestions from people who really doesn't want anything like what he's going to produce in the first place. This guy just doesn't want to have to go through MOUNTAINS OF CRAP to find the few suggestions that his REAL users want to give him. No, not EVERYONE wants to use apt, people these days have a complete fear of the command line. No, he doesn't want to use Redcarpet, can't we just leave it at that?
Now I know that everything here is going to turn into a HUGE flamefest, but PLEASE don't forward your comments to his e-mail or whatever UNLESS you really want to help.
Oh, and as for the lame grammar corrections, I think it is clear that this person speaks English as a second language. Not all programmers can speak english perfectly. I can understand what he is saying, even with incorrect grammar.
UPDATE: It turns out that Nick Betcher is an insecure egotist with nothing to offer the Linux community, trying to pass off a web page with crappy screenshots as a "project".
If you don't believe me, read one of the threads where Nick himself posted. Incidentally, one of them was modded down to -1 (does it signify something when the originator of the article is moderated "offtopic" and "troll"?), so you'll kinda have to hunt for it.
--
Obfuscated e-mail addresses won't stop sadistic 12-year-old ACs.
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
I'd like to see KDE and Gnome get together and share helixcode's installer.
No offence, but you most definitely don't. The Helixcode installer force installs every package. This is a bad thing, and even worse that Helixcode choose not to document the fact broadly. Thus IRC channels and mailing lists are being perpetually flooded with users complaining the installer has raped their system. Try jumping on mandrake-expert sometime. It ain't pretty sorting out the mess. Ditto all the Red Hat 6.2 users who installed Helix before trying updating to 7.0
You could use Red Carpet, but frankly I don't think much of Ximian or their products (most notable the registration of about ten or fifteen KDE tradmarks on Google adwords).
Their already a packaging system independent automatic installer avaliable, that is tested and proved. Debian has used it for a long time, and many people use the distribution simply because of this (Debian is too hands on for me, I like the automation of other distributions). THe recent RPM port of APT (it was originally designed to be portable) by Connective means that Connectiva now uses this system and Linux Mandrake 7.3 will in the future.
I still recall when updating GNOME meant to download 30 odd rpms that you didnt know if you needed/wanted and praying nothing went wrong. Now helix (err, ximian) has this nice little installer to help you get it set up, and a nice little updater to tell you whats out of date. It's very easy to use and nice. KDE, AFAIK, hasnt had that so far. Putting that in widespread use would probably make KDE more popular among the *nix communities. Hey, maybe i'd even finally install KDE2
I am !amused.
Basically, any effort that goes into a GUI installer should be able to be utilised by apt (and rpm equivalents) without too much trouble -- they should not depend on having a GUI, and should not depend on any particular package format or file locations... it's all too complex :(
rr
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
Suppose someone develops a new, even better installer. But since it's not the same as your hypothetical Ximian/Helix universal installer, it would be shunned for not meeting the standard. Standards are made to be broken. It's hard to push the envelope in terms of technology and features when you're stuck with a strict standard to obey. Some of the best software programs have been the ones that have "thought outside the box" and rebuilt everything we know about a particular type of application. (Should we fault Linux for not supporting the "Windows standard?" I think not.) So let's not worry about setting a standard -- the best techonology will always set its own standard.
There's always different tools for different tasks. RPM might fit one project better, while the Debian packages might be the best choice for a second project. Let's not turn a hammer and a screwdriver into the same thing just for simplicity's sake.
Yu Suzuki
Yu Suzuki
Deamcast. It's thinking.
I think that one of the major hurdles that keeps the average computer user from using linux is the non-standardization, and sometimes lack of an easy installer program. I mean, if a windows user new to linux downloads the c source of something and nothing else, chances are they are going to have no idea what to do from there. If there was a excepted installer, like (gasp) Install Shield for windows, that anybody could use, and that most programs used to install, then i think alot more average people would use linux.
C:\
C:\Dos
C:\dos\run
Sigs are against my religion
I suggest that users who want to upgrade KDE easily use apt :). For me to upgrade KDE, I just do .deb and apt.
apt-get update;apt-get -yu dselect-upgrade
not only does that upgrade kde, it upgrades all of my system, and yes of course it can be set to only upgrade one package..
"I hate having to download 25+ rpms/source files and having to figure out libraries etc" Funny, since with Debian none of this is needed! Sorry if this sounds like another "apt is great, debian is great", but it IS. If you don't like having to install KDE on redhat with many odd rpms, then move to a decent distro based on
* This installer doesnt manage any packages. I dont know where you guys got that from, its false.
* This installer doesnt replace all the Debian users' little pet apt. If you are using Debian, please dont mention that all you need to do is a "apt-get blah blah blah". WE KNOW. And if your asking yourself "Why not just use Debian" its because apt doesnt have a cool installer like the KDE Installer, and its not as friendly as Mandrake and others (dont pick at that please).
* This installer wont be a wrapper for redcarpet. End of story. Too much work and planning has already been done to just turn around and change ideas.
* If your not a newbie, or you dont like this idea, please dont talk about it (You know who I'm talking to). It seems no matter how many times I visit slashdot, at least 65% of your comments are put-downs.
I'm sorry if I seemed mad the last comment, my temper with flamers only goes so far.
Thanks, Nick Betcher
P.S. Topics like 'flamebait' are getting old. If its humor, its old :) Also, this article isnt written in anger.
My (pretty obvious) two cents.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
Agreed. The packaging system independent APT does this well, but is nowhere near as friendly as it could be. And GUI installers are hilariously bad - what exactly is `a gnorpm'? Why when I click on a package do I get `KPACKAGE MUST BE RUN AS ROOT!!!!' rather than a password dialogue? Why can't I select 60 packages, open them similtaneously, and let the installer work out the dependencies?
* Make the code Open Source
* Make it cross platform, cross applciation (ie, and interface for apt), and cross licensing (this means closed source apps, too)
* Call it `Software Installer'. The command would be `installer'
* Allow cataloging (Eazel services, Red Hat network, and other subscriptions) into it. Allow people to make these services free (gratis) or otherwise.
* Make it secure. Put package signing into systems that don't have it yet.
* Have a set of packaging guidelines that go with it, defining things like granularity, package structure, menu icon guidelines, etc.
* If Oracle wants to, allow me to type in my credit card and download Oracle.
The answer to your problems is simple. Compile from source. The makers of rpm packages are amongst the most anally retentive people on earth. KDE doesn't give a rat's ass what build number your libpng is, but the typical rpm will. If you use an rpm based distro long enough without reinstalling from scratch, you will eventually end up with a dozen libpngs that you can't get rid of because some program long since upgraded once needed it. cf the story on glibc hell.
Sure it takes longer to build a program than it does to install it. But it ain't much harder (./configure; make; make install). And you get to be 100% in control. Your computer is yours. Freenix isn't Windows. Don't let the distros tell you what to do.
Checking for dependencies is a Good Thing(tm). Using it to install generic one-size-fits-all binaries optimized for the lowest common denominator is a Bad Thing(tm).
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
How about some manner of GENERIC installer? What a waste to have everyone who wants a GUI installer to have to roll one from scratch. This would even give all programs a common look-and-feel for their installations. Wouldn't that be nice?
Frankly I'll never convince my sister to "./configure; make; make test; make install". It'll just never happen. Even "apt-get install" is too much for some people. Having a common GUI installer with a consistant look and feel would be REALLY beneficial to new users and wouldn't hurt us l33t h4x0rz either...
I'm of the general philosophy that more effort needs to go in to GENERIC tools and less into non-portable or app-specific ones, that way real, large-scale, code reuse can happen.
Justin Dubs
I can''t believe this made slashdot :-( This is not good for KDE PR. Let me explain; this project is nothing more than a few bits of GUI created with QT's designer, there is no code behind it except for the auto generated stuff from designer and the guy who is "writting" it is a very new programmer with unfortuantly a very young attitude. I wish it was other wise but this project is doomed from the start, it has no planning and the only clear goal is to create an installer, how it will work is a mystery to the author but he has a gui.
I really feel bad posting this, GNU projects should be about community and sharing but you really should realise that this is one guy (that honestly has little clue) and is not the official KDE installer. My heart sunk when I saw this article, I do realise that KDE needs an installer but unfortualtly is a bit of a way off yet. For now, Debian apt is by far the best way to install KDE in binary form because of the way it's packaged but a lot of people don't run Debian. Compiling from source is obviously the most flexible route but is more trouble for those of us that want to get things done.
Again, this is unfortunate, please read the posts on dot.kde.org where the author has posted some very strange remarks but it backs this post up. I guess everything has a bright side though and this project highlights the easy of use of QT Designer.
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security