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Agenda VR3 Review
jlam writes: "Brighthand has a review on the Linux based Agenda VR3 PDA. Sounds like the product was rushed out the door after being delayed almost a year, has performance problems, and is depending on the talents of the open-source community to help fix the problems. The review has screenshots of the PDA including the boot up screens." I've also been using mine. I agree with parts of the above review -- there's some definite problems with the device. However, from what I've heard there's a device with a 130 MIPs chip, rechargeable battery and some other goodies in development right now. The additional speed will help out, as the current device has speed issues. Summary: It's got definite potential, but I think it came out a bit too early.
That's a cheap shot. They're being sued by Milberg Weiss, who with an ounce of research you'd find sue any company whose stock drops a lot. The scam, of course, is "give us some settlement money or we'll trash your company in the press and drag you through court for the next five years. Past victims include VA Linux, amongst many, many others.
Fun links: Milberg Weiss nailed for $45M
... or try searching for "Bill Lerach" on Google.
An article titled "Bloodsucking Scumbag"
Given that it was released too soon, and that the company has not put enought into it as a product, where does that leave us?
... and I think Agenda deserve at least a *little* respect for having the balls to recognize that...
Personally, I like the looks of it as a hardware platform - certainly if it's open enough for me to hack with it using regular Linux-style tools, I'd consider getting one if just for the sake that it's a hackers tool.
So, what do we get? Do we get details on the hardware? Do we get the cross compiler? Is there a FAQ/Howto from Kessler on how to build apps for it?
Do the bundled apps come with source? What's the environment *on the thing* like? Just how much potential does it represent to me, as a hacker, interested in building my own environment in a handheld architecture, using tools I'm familiar with?
If I get good answers to any of these questions, regardless of the fact that it's a sows ear right now: I'd buy a VR3, sight unseen.
I think *THAT* is the point of this whole article. Lord knows we don't need to crap on these people - let's instead discuss the *POTENTIAL* this platform gives us hackers from a fun/candy perspective... because obviously it's not a CONSUMER-ready product.
But we are not all Consumers. Some of us are hackers
Also, where do we buy these things form? Anyone got a URL?
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
... and do away with the bloated GUI in the thing, for good ... that way you can walk around with a portable speech-recognition device that can be set up to control X10 stuff over iRDA, etc.
/ in dex-3.html
...
More details on CVoiceControl here:
http://www.kiecza.de/daniel/linux/cvoicecontrol
I'd imagine it'd be a pretty easy port
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
So, now, the world can think "Look, some company finally puts out a PDA that runs Linux and it sucks! See? Told you. Where'd I put my Psion?"
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
Bit longer answer... Yes, you get source...you can browse the CVS tree from the developer site. There are FAQs on building apps...heck, as sold, it's X! The cross-compiler tools are readily available at the Linux VR site. Another good Agenda development site is here.
Potential?? TONS. X is pretty heavy on the thing...so I'm probably not gonna use it! I'm working on setting up a rootdisk with Microwindows, an OSS windowing environment that's a lot lighter-weight than X. Still in development, but I think there's a lot of promise there. If you can still get into the Developer's Program rates, you can get an Agenda for $179. (I got one for that price two weeks ago). As a hacker, you Cannot Beat That. It's awesome...I'm running a full-fledged Linux box in my hand, and I have total control, source, development tools, etc. It may not be ready for the Masses yet...but we aren't exactly the Masses now, are we?? *grin*
Where can you find a used 5mx? Those psions sure look great. My Newton 130 is awesome, but getting a bit dated now. Gotta buy a new toy.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
A classic Linux user needs console-based apps and cross-compiling functionality.
Umm, this is a PDA not a laptop. As a PDA user, I can tell you that I regularly flip between 5-6 applications in the course of a day. These apps are in memory (I use a Palm m105 these days) so there is a delay of at most a second or two, if the app is large. A delay of 4-5 seconds would annoy me to no end, let alone 40 seconds.
It seems that Agenda just didn't put that much effort into turning Linux into an embedded os. There are more issues than simply Will it run on a PDA?
I don't know. I haven't seen one for real yet. Based on this review and another I read in Palm Computing Magazine, I'm probably going to hold off until v2.0, if there is one.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Checked it out. It suffers from the same form factor as the Newton Messagepad. Too big to carry in a pocket, too small to be a laptop replacement.
That VHS Video Tape size is horrible. Anything much larger than a pack of playing cards is too big to carry around all the time.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
It isn't that hard. You make it sound like we have to hammer out applications in Assembly Language for PalmOS. There are lots of companies making lots of money cranking out vertical market applications for the Palm. Hell, Symbol Technologies and TRG make Palms that are primarily for cranking out vertical market apps.
:)
Programming PalmOS is a breeze for anyone with a working knowledge of C. I actually prefer programming for PalmOS to programming GUI apps in Unix because of the simplicity and consistency of the platform. You don't have to bother worrying about widget placement, or color depth, or any of that extraneous crap that makes X windows programs so cumbersome to program (and so great to use).
Just because you can't program it in Visual Basic doesn't mean that it's impossible to work with. Oops, my bad, you can crank out apps for PalmOS in VB. Well, there goes your argument
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Here you can find all the information you need to hack your VR3:
:)
:) Theys guys didn't really know what they were doing on the speed-side but they did make a good peice of hardware.
http://developer.agendacomputing.com/
One design flaw (IMHO) is that all of the user applications on the machine are written in C++, due to the embedded design of the software.. C may have reduced the footprint required to "push" the applications, but that is my opinion..you don't have to agree
The graphics toolkit (C++) they are using is very cross platform, perhaps they decided to use it incase they would later decide to move to WinCE?? It is called FLTK. The machine itself runs XFree86, so all of your existing X11 applications should run fine; although the screensize may be a little limiting.
This platform just needs optimizations, they are using very open technologies and opened it up to developers, infact.. most of the software is already on most linux machines!
As far as the WindowManager is concerned, it is FLWM.. of course based on this high-level graphics library. For speed's sake, there are definately much "lighter" windowmanagers out there! A modification of RatPoison or ION would be perfect for this device, much cleaner.. faster..
It shouldn't take much to make this a much faster machine, just remove all the applications shipped with it!
If I get the money, i'm buying one!
Mabe this guy is ticked off at Linux for some reason
Hmm, he runs Linux on his web servers, and has given a very good review of Linux efforts on the iPaq side. Maybe it's because he has seen how well Linux can run unofficially on another PDA that he's, well, a bit disappointed that a commercial effort couldn't beat a few people working away in a Compaq research lab.
Is this guy for real, or is this just an amazingly skilled troll? Any how does he find time to post this stuff? Shouldn't he be in the kitchen beating his barefoot and pregnant wife?
Where should I start with this? Poor spelling invalidates any claim to being human? OK, whatever. Does that mean we can round up and slaughter all the poor spellers?
The "liberals" are responsible for Ruby Ridge? The shooting occured on August 22nd, 1992. Pray tell, who was president then? That would be George Bush, wouldn't it?
Women have "nothing to offer an employer"? That's because they should be at home it the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant, right? I hope you didn't vote for Bush Jr. You must be sorely disappointed at all of the "unproductive dead weight" he has working for him at the White House. Judging by your rant, I'm guessing that you voted for Buchannan.
Anyway, if any moderaters see my post, please mark it -1 offtopic, along with the sexist white supremacist post I'm replying to.
Windows CE (also known as Windows Powered * PC, where * is Pocket, Handheld, Auto, and Cell phone, and whatever else) is not a port of Windows (any version, 9x or NT). It's a complete rewrite from the ground up. The misconception comes from the fact that Windows CE supports a subset of the Win32 API (look around on MSDN sometime and you'll see a lot of functions that either aren't supported by CE or have limited functionality -- the goal was to reduce the number of APIs that have duplicate functionality).
Windows CE is actually very nice OS -- extremely modular, able to take advantage of several hardware platforms (MIPS, SH3/4, ARM, PPC, and x86), and written explicitly for embedded systems. Most people seem to dislike Windows CE (prior to Pocket PC, anyway) due to the clunky gui. What most people don't realize, though, is that it's not difficult for a development house to replace the gui with something nicer-looking (look at the AutoPC, for instance, or the Pocket PCs, which run Windows CE 3.0), thanks to the modular nature of Windows CE. For an interesting read about the origins of Windows CE, check out Inside Microsoft Windows CE (John Murray, Microsoft Press). It's a bit old (September 1998), but it gives a good account of how Windows CE was originally supposed to be a stripped down NT, but ended up being written from scratch.
I got a used 5 from Loot - http://www.loot.com/ for those in the UK. For those who aren't, they're sort of a national classified ads paper who post all ads more than 2 days old on their website! Yay!
They've normally got plenty, and at good prices too.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Classified ads, so all private sellers and based in the UK. Depends on the individual.
You could probably find someone who would, the question is whether it'd be worth it once you'd sorted the currency changes and shipping.
Just noticed they've got Loot USA which might be worth a try.
http://www.lootusa.com/
Good luck, they're worth it in the end. Proper little computers and lovely to work with.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
For $900 I'd be happy to sell you the developer version of the Linux iPAQ.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Though Linux isn't perfectly suited to handhelds, it isn't bad. The reason these things are slow is because they run X. Though it "isn't ready for prime time" yet, I and a couple others have been working on creating a usable PDA system. It will work on nearly any CPU, but the focus is on the 68EZ328. Yep, the same one in Palm computers.
The OS is uClinux, and the user interface is a project I've been working on since last March, PicoGUI. The video drivers still need lots of work, but for the most part uClinux and PicoGUI gives good results even on a little 16mhz CPU. This will allow better battery life no matter what CPU used. Smartdata has been working on a handheld computer using PicoGUI, and I have a piece of hardware or two that will run it.
-- 2 + 2 = 5, for very large values of 2
Why must they have a login on this handheld? When was the last time you wanted to share your personal handheld computer with anybody else? (I'll take it monday, and you can have it tuesday)
Gimme a break! I treat my palm pilot like my wallet; I wouldn't hand it to just anybody to riffle around with.
---
Cheap, high-speed, full featured domain hosting: LoudServer.com
I don't really mind double posts on
I expect a small machine running Linux with a tiny display, a serial port and an IR port. I hope to run ssh, a few tiny programs I write myself and scripts written in Perl, Python or Tcl.
The most important feature: it is small enough to ride in a robot built out of Lego Technics, and it can communicate with the Lego Mindstorms.
It'd be cool if it was usefull as an organizer, but that's not required. Heck, I've been happy with some toys that were clearly only release 0.1 material.
SO Red Hat has to be destroyed. Ummm, in your whole rash of postings I agreee with some of your statements, but if you really believe in a free market capitalist economy, then Red Hat just has to do business. If they succeed or fail is up to them. Morons suing them because they (gasp!) lost money is bull. That is the most damaging thing the internet economy gave us was a sense of entitlement for investors. Doing business and investing in business is risky. Red Hat is doing business with all the risks involved, if they make money great, if they lose money and go out of business it will be up to someone else to create a new business model and try to succeed. I personally think the future of linux distros may well rest in the non-profit arena (like debian)
Newton. Newton 1.0 all over again.
;-)
But for adjenda, they don't have the profits from another line of EQ to prop up the other line so they can survive long enough to come out with a working version.
And, if this curses all future Linux handheld efforts, there is NetBSD and Wind River backed FreeBSD as options for Open Source based PDA's. Or, if you can live with access to 90% of the source code of a Palm PDA, they have source you can look at.
(The other choice is a Windows for Pen platform, complete with just plain wrong code examples
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
As the reviewer point out though, the company only said it was pre-release after he complained it was crap, and also he got it after the official release date.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Ah, but hardly anyone's gonna buy one of those, are they?
What you want really is to take a commercially viable PDA like the iPaq and find a way to subvert the consumer orientated OS in favour of something open you can hack about etc.
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
When Windows CE was made, MS heavily trimmed the Win32 API. In fact, almost 90% of the Win32 API is not there for CE. Stuffs with duplicate functionalities, or just not useful.
I wonder if similar work is done to the Linux and the X server that Agenda uses. If it implements the full POSIX and X interface, no wonder it is such a slow beast.
Remember: even small software with small footprints on your desktop machine become bloatware when run on a PDA.
I don't have a theseis for this post... it's part agreement and part disagreement and part me ranting, so bear with me...
rather than be forced to recommend a winCE powered, or palmOS powered device.
You say that like it's a bad thing. Now, I'm no fan of WinCE, but Palm is a good handheld OS.
Think about recommending a PDA to someone. Say this is a co-worker with significantly less tech experience than yourself asking for a recommendation. Do you really think they want to work with Linux on a handheld? Maybe they do. Or maybe they want something that's fast, clean, user-friendly, and designed to be a handheld OS. PalmOS or PocketPC may be better for this.
(Forgive me if I misinterpreted what you said about recommendation.)
It worries me that people are so swift to discount PocketPC and PalmOS in favor of Linux. One of the problems with WinCE (and this may still be a problem with PPC) is that MS basically tried to scale Windows95 down into a handheld, and it just didn't work (not "work" in a program-won't-run sense, but in functionality and ease of use). One part of the review caught my eye: "That's right, the Linux operating system that works so phenomenally well for web servers (including the two running the Brighthand web site) grinds to a halt in this version "
I admire the attempts to make Linux work on more than just servers and desktops. If someday I can switch between ("dual boot" :) ) PalmOS and Linux on my handheld, I will be very happy. But Linux is not necessarily the be-all and end-all OS for every application.
PS...It looks like Agenda is trying to make Linux work as a good handheld OS. But as you point out, people will be reluctant to see it as such if Agenda keeps this rush-release practice up.
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Re-badged Psion Revos. Best handheld device on the market - Runs the Symbian Platform, aren't much bigger than a Palm V and has a good keyboard.
it's in my head
I actually signed up as a developer and bought one of the devices. The original boot that came on it sucked hard, but the kernel/root image that I've since flashed to it has made it a passable device.
:) (thats the processor, memory, and speed specs)
Would I suggest it to a normal PDA user? Definitely not yet. It needs to have its task switching system fixed, its X optimized or stream-lined, and its startup procedure tailored to end users. However, if you hook up the serial port to your linux box, start up ppp, and then telnet into the device, its amazingly passable as a unix machine. Of course that is not what it's designed for. Most people don't want a 2x speed DEC 3100 workstation
As to the limit on the number of apps: First I noticed that swap wasn't used, nor should it, but a 2.4.x kernel running out of memory without any swap-styled VM pages seems to "fit the bill" for what happens to these devices when you run too many apps. My guess is that some kernel hacking needs to be done to better handle low-memory management. But consider this. I got python on it, and it works, a few threads and all.
End result: It needs a lot of help, but it has enough ooph (66mhz, 16mb flashram, 8mb rom) to be a very reasonable PDA.. it just needs to have its resources re-oriented and one needs to not attempt "quick ports", which are easy, but do not take into account that its such an under-powered linux device that tweaks are a must!
PDAs are handheld devices, with limited memory (management), display and input capabilities. Most Linux apps don't even think about these things. By the time you've gotten to work slashing the footprint and rewriting the UI, it would have been just as quick porting it to any other PDA.
For PDAs the bottom line is the applications, battery life and form factor. What operating system it's running comes in a long distance behind these biggies. The OS certainly plays a part in all of the above things, but the end user simply doesn't care that much. Get the apps running right and it could be running CrapOS 0.1 for all the user cares.
Personally I think Linux has the potential to be great for PDAs but maybe not with the Agenda.
A little FYI, for those who are still buying (and getting ripped off) rechargable batteries from local electronic stores. Check out Thomas Distributing for a great online source of rechargable batteries and other related equipment. I am not associated with the company, but I am a satisfied customer. Basically, I was let down by the poor performance of the rechargables that I bought from RadioShack... and so I went surfing online. Some diehard Palm users recommended Thomas Dist, and so I placed an order. The benefit to Thomas is that they differentiate between good, better, and the best yields of batteries from various manufacturers. Just like CPUs, NiMH batteries can have various qualities within the same make and model.
For a PDA user, that uses two AAA batteries, I recommend 4 of the Nexcell AAA, which have a 700mAH capacity. Having 2 sets of 2 lets you cycle between charging and using the batteries. To charge those little bad boys, I recommend the MAHA MH-C204F. It charges my totally drained AAAs in under an hour. For those who need to use AA batteries, check out these 1740mAH capacity bad boys! With that much juice, you really can catch 'em all! Anyway, just some FYI for the power users out there.
As I said when the original review (which also said that there are real stability problems etc.) I will wait for version 2 or 3 before buying one.
Still, I'm glad to see SOMETHING in the handheld in Linux, even if it wasn't ready for production. Now, when Debian comes out with one, I'll think about it.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
Calm down, buddy. Supply-side is bullshit -- the explosion of the national debt that came out of the Reagan/Bush era is enough to prove that.
Besides, you seem rather trollish anyway -- Theonomist, huh? The Blavatsky school of tax reform, no doubt -- you never know when California will fall into the sea and we all have to move back to Atlantis.
At least you're making no pretensions about who and what you are -- you're either a delusional supply sider/Ayn Rander or a troll with a Mocha Java IV drip.
/Brian
Realistically, the Agenda is a toy. This should just be common sense. If they'd put half the effort into coming up with a decent Elks or Minix based OS, they'd probably be ahead of the game. Yes, they lose name recognition, but they'd have a competitive gadget.
I am a Linux fan, okay? I want to get that out of the way right now, because I'm about to perpetuate an egregious act of anti-Karma whoring. The Agenda was a bad idea. Linux is a great server system. It could be a great desktop system. But Agenda's way of doing things has flagrantly ignored the lesson Microsoft should have learned: you can't scale a desktop OS to a palmtop. IT JUST DOESN'T WORK.
Linux is not an embedded OS. It's too damn big to do the job effectively without cutting out massive sections of the code -- and would you still have Linux when you were done cutting? We have Elks -- close enough to Linux for the purpose. We have Minix. Both are fairly small and royalty-free.
Agenda blew it on other counts; nobody will disagree with that. The interface is choppy, the marketing nonexistent, and the implementation is a mess. But I still believe that running Linux on a PDA for anything other than sheer hack value is almost certainly a ticket to disaster.
/brian
..I don't understand.. How can a greyscale PDA offer only 6 to 8 hours of use? .. I'm willing to put up with 8-10 hours on an ipaq with colour screen, video playback etc.. but for a simple monochrome organizer, why would you not go with something that has battery life for weeks?
air and light and time and space
According to This Agenda page, the Agenda weighs 4 oz without batteries. The weight of 2 AA batteries can vary depending on the type of battery one is using.
Yes, the reviewer should have gotten out an accurate scale and measured exactly how heavy it was, and then gotten a second scale and verified it - but we can't have everything.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
I have no intention of buying this first-generation device - I learned my lesson with a first gen WinCE device (still very usable for taking notes and very basic spreadsheets, I'm glad I only paid $100 for it), and my mp3 CD player. However, it's unfair to simply denounce this as a horrible product when the reviewer has nothing more than a pre-production release. I imagine he got something that was put together between a few days to a few weeks ago. A lot of changes can happen in the one month previous to a release.
I eagerly await a review after the April 23rd ship date - I want to see the potential this thing really has. I will probably seriously consider a second generation device, but it must have usability as well as the "toy" factor, including these features:
- lithium ion battery with decent (10-20 hour) lifetime. This is one of my largest considerations because otherwise I have to plunk down more money for less-convenient NiMH batteries (which I use in my current PDA and digital camera).
- Slightly larger screen. This agenda has a 3" x 2 1/8" screen (interesting that a Hong Kong company uses English units, or so it seems). This is just too darned small, like the Palms, for my liking (my WinCE palmtop has a wonderful 2 1/2" x 4 1/2" - unreasonable for handhelds, I know.) Also, reverse backlighting annoys me, there should be a switch to make it normal like the Palm hack.
- A set of physical scroll buttons (up and down) is essential; I like to read on my palmtops, and to tap to scroll down too much of a pain.
- The applications should run about as fast as Palms - after all, the Palms have less than a 30 Mhz processor. This is the true test of how fast Linux can be on slower devices.
- expansion cards for storage and wireless networking are essential - modems are practically useless (at least to me), but a wireless network card would give me access in many buildings I occupy.
We'll just have to see how it goes.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
to work on bringing linux to the masses. Rushing products, so that they arrive with less than perfect, or in this case: less than acceptible, hardware and software only causes people to assume that the operating system is to blame, and that good programs can not be created for linux. People, in general, do not understand that it is the programmer: they blame the program.
I would have much rather had to wait a few months and had a product that worked nearly flawlessly, so that I could recommend it to my friends, rather than be forced to recommend a winCE powered, or palmOS powered device. It's really a shame that market pressure ruins so many good ideas.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
<RANT> Oh what a steaming pile of self-righteous crap! I'm sorry to have to inform you that in the private sector these days, virtually everything is always shoved out the door before the engineers say it's done. The fact is we all love to perfect our creations, but time (or VC funding) waits for no man, and the suits do indeed have a job -- get the product out there and start pulling in revenue before all the cash is gone. </RANT>
Take a look at Mozilla at any time over the past two years -- it always seems like they just need a couple more months and it'll be perfect. Netscape bit the bullet last fall and shoved NS6 out the door -- now it's four months later and Mozilla just issued a new roadmap that delays '1.0' until Q3. Should Netscape have waited "a few months"?
Things get done in this world by people who design, execute, tweak it up a bit, shove it out the door, evaluate, re-prioritize and do it all again. "Works flawlessly"? Ha! Product design is asymptotic -- you'll get closer and closer, but you're never really THERE, and so someone has to stick their neck out and say "enough already". Companies run by engineers do NOT necessarily succeed -- you need a balance of technical and fiscal considerations in any decision.
Sounds like Agenda's got problems, but as has been stated elsewhere, it's too early to make a judgement on that.
- Master Of The Obvious
One simple rule for its versus it's
I can just see the letter to customers now...
Dear Customer: Thanks for buying our PDA. Sorry it is a very buggy. But you can volunteer to fix it for us!
sulli
RTFJ.
It is important to note that this is not a consumer release. It is easiest to use the VR3d with Linux, not Windows. (Although, I just synced mine with my PC and am upgrading using 3rd party developer tools under Windows).
Non-hackers should wait until a consumer version is released. Hackers will probably have fun doing what they want with the system. The VR3d is completely open (except for the bootloader, or PMON). When I see a bug in the system, I am free to download the source and fix it for myself.
-Sean
Handhelds have smaller displays, less memory and are put to different uses than desktop or notebook PCs. Because of this, porting over a desktop OS to a handheld isn't always the great idea that it originally seems - Windows CE anyone?
The two OSes that have done well in handhelds have been PalmOS (used by Palm, IBM, Handspring, Sony, etc) and EPOC (used by Psion and its licensees). Both of these were designed from the ground up with handheld usage in mind.
Linux functionality in a handheld might cool but is it any more beneficial to a handheld user than the other OSes already in the market place?
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Actually, the first Palm was pretty good from a user's point of view. But in order to create a good, cheap, low-power handheld, Palm cut many corners when it came to programmability and extensibility.
All your constitutional right are belong to us.
They (unfortunatly [sic]) dont [sic] vote because they are more apathetic and lesse[sic]-faire . . . Most Liberals are enlightened and wise enough to not try and starve his [sic] neighbours [sic] children for his [sic] own benefit . . .
. . . and several butchers' aprons.
Welcome to planet Earth in the year of our Lord 2001. There's still an 'e' in "unfortunately", we still put apostrophes in contractions like "don't" (not to mention "what's", "it's", etc.), and the French still haven't made any radical changes in the way they spell "laissez". Futhermore, plural pronouns haven't yet become singular, and the possessive of "neighbor" is still "neighbor's", unless you mean the plural -- in which case "neighbors'" would do nicely. Your misspelling of "neighbor" itself suggests the source of the problem: You're either European, or a sadly ill-educated liberal American pretending to be European -- presumably because the other guys down at the leather bar find it a turn-on.
Now that we've disposed of your implied claim to human ancestry, we can move along and demolish the substance of your outburst.
"Liberals" are "moral"?! Your definition of "morality" seems to include men having anal sex with hundreds of partners in a given year. It also includes Ted Kennedy's murderous crimes, the "mysterious" rash of killings surrounding the Clinton regime, the wholesale butchering of unborn children for profit, armed robbery of an entire nation (income tax), the forcible disarming of a free population, the murder of innocents at Waco, Ruby Ridge and elsewhere, divorce, paganism, satanism, drug addiction (encouraged and paid for by YOUR TAX MONEY, thanks to the insane liberal welfare religion), broken homes, shattered lives, a crippled educational system, wealth-creating businesses destroyed by lawsuits and crippled by insane legal impositions ("affirmative action", anyone?), and a thousand other crimes against humanity.
Is it "moral" when I am forced to hire and retain hopelessly incompetent employees by "affirmative action"? Is it moral that women are driven out of the home and into a workplace in which they have nothing to offer an employer? Do you think they enjoy their positions? Their employers hate them because they're a constant reminder of the abuses of a tyrannical government. Their co-workers hate them because they're unproductive dead weight. They soon learn to hate themselves, and rightly so. Deprived by abortion of any natural outlet for their natural maternal drive, instead they're mismolded into crude, hapless pseudo-men for the delectation of the feminist bull-dykes who exert absolute control over the legal system. These bull-dykes (like "Mrs." Clinton, for example) have hated themselves all along. They can do nothing but try to get a poor sort of revenge on their own twisted, malfunctioning biology by inflicting their own misery on women who were born healthy.
The crimes of the liberals defy description. You, my little friend, are either deluded are genuinely evil. Since you're clearly an idiot, I'm betting on "deluded".
"Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive" -- hey, that's me!
Quite frankly, I'm [sic] enjoying the so called "Clinton-Damaged" economy for the last few years.
I think you're trying to say that you've been enjoying the economy -- but even if that is what you mean, you're quite confused.
The Republicans fought Clinton every step of the way. We fought like tigers to preserve the gains of the Reagan/Bush years. We sweated blood to preserve the prosperity that we'd brought to America in the 1980's. And we did not fail. True, if we'd been able to stay on track between 1992 and 2000, you'd be looking at a 15,000 Dow today -- and you'd be enjoying a hard currency, too, not the same old soft "Democratic funny money" based on the "paper standard".
The entire "Internet Bubble" was the direct result of government interference in the economy. The real, solid prosperity of the 1980's was based on the financial acumen of brilliant men like Michael Milken. The false, soap-bubble "prosperity" of the 1990's was based on the grimy jabberings of a million "nerds" creating "products" which don't even really exist. Software is a nice hobby, but there is no product there. A long series of zeroes and ones is not something a sane man will spend money on -- regardless of how much care was lavished on putting them in just the right order.
Government interference, you say? Yes, indeed. Read up about the ARPANet: That's the government pork-barrel boondoggle that grew into the Internet. During the 1980's, honest businesses in a fair, competitive environment produced far superior alternatives: Compuserve, AOL, Prodigy, the list goes on. All were more resource-efficient than the wasteful Internet, with its bloated packet-switching and insane reliance on text files for so many purposes (and even by text standards, they're still fat -- look at how much space in an XML file is wasted on "tags" some time). Any one of those private-sector innovations was far superior to what we've got now -- but the government essentially went into competition with the private sector, and steamrollered them with massive expenditures of tax money.
Imagine that -- an innovative, honest company called Prodigy was TAXED INTO PENURY, with the government's ill-gotten gains immediately spent to destroy what was left.
Naturally, the government-created Internet spawned a culture of lies, delusions, and theft.
And now we reap the whirlwind. The psychotic "Internet mentality" has taken such a deep hold that Americans actually oppose a tax cut that will restart the economy by putting wealth back into the hands of the justly wealthy who created it in the first place, and who will gladly create more if they only have some spare capital to work with.
"Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive" -- hey, that's me!