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Mir 2
FortKnox writes: "Just when you thought you heard the end of it, Russian engineers unveiled plans for the Mir2. Fortunately, the Russian government has no plans to put this on the agenda. Why can't we all just build the ISS like good little countries??" Taking the Russian space budget into account, this seems unlikely to occur any time soon. But it's nice to dream...
Why should they? ISS is a white elephant, it only exists at all because the US have some notion that it is preventing russian rocket scientists from going to work for "unwholesome" governments.
Does anyone actually believe the stuff about growing protein crystals?
Putting people in space has always been a prestige or military exercise, ISS started out as part of the star wars project and continued because NASA are quite good at pleading for budgets. Like all NASA projects it costs a hell of a lot more than it needs to. Mir was better value for money, far better.
ISS should be killed, but it won't be. It has no value:
Nearly all the experiments that can be done there can be carried out better by cheap unmanned satellites that can be assembled and launched for a fraction of the cost of a shuttle launch.
ISS has no military value (look up international).
The russians can probably build and orbit a whole station for the cost of an ISS module.
If anyone has a compelling reason why funds should be sunk into this legacy of Regans deluded imagination then I would love to hear it.
Mir2 *is* a resume to Saddam. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Fortunately, the Russian government has no plans to put this on the agenda. Why can't we all just build the ISS like good little countries??"
Because AFAIK the US has the final command authority over the station, which is ok, since they're also investing the most money, but makes it (a) difficult for the others to perform military research there and is (b) an image problem for a country which used to be ahead in the space race for a long time and is the only one with long-time experiance in operating a space station.
Taking the Russian space budget into account, this seems unlikely to occur any time soon. But it's nice to dream...
The Russian economy is currently doing much better then in the Yeltsin era (they even had a surplus on last years budget - something that many wealthy nations can still only dream of), so this is really just a matter of political will. Considering the current US missle defense plans, it's not too unlikely that this will change in the near future.
Last I checked, the USA was the one with the
hereditary ruling position ^_^
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
Success! I just ran across the same article on MSNBC. However, this copy has a picture of Leonid Gorshkov with a projection of Mir 2 in the background.
In the picture, you see some elements that look like they are right out of Mir (1) and the Russian ISS modules. The biggest difference is a large truss holding the solar arrays which bears a strong resemblence to the truss which will be installed on ISS starting next year.
One thing on this truss that is not present on Mir or ISS is a couple of large dish antennas. I remember something like this being proposed for the old Freedom design (or one of it's revisions), but nothing like that is planned now. Also, I'm not sure if these are radar or communications.
Anyway, it looks like they could do a lot better by just supporting the ISS efforts. I wonder how much money they spent doing up these plans which could have gone towards construction of the modules they have already promised to ISS.
World Beach List, my latest project.
In our media driven society, I'm amazed that space.com didn't include any pictures of the Mir2 design. Of course, if RSC couldn't afford to make any computer renderings, this might limit the media material available.
Of my other space news sources, Spaceflight Now didn't have any information on this and NASA Watch is down this morning. Obviously, the news sources don't put a lot of stake in Mir2 ever getting beyond a few press briefings.
Russia can't even afford to meet it's ISS commitments. Every module of theirs beyond the Service Module (Zvezda) is delayed indefinitely. If Russia doesn't get moving on their Science Power Platform they may never be able to do meaningful science on their side of the station. This could also hamper their commercial asperations such as the Enterprise module.
Russia needs to get off their nationalistic bent and concentrate their efforts on what is there rather than trying to one-up the rest of the world.
World Beach List, my latest project.
Today is the 40th anniversary of
manned spaceflight.
I love space exploration yet I hate the ISS. Fortunately some other people here feel the same way as me. The ISS is a waste of fucking money. It is essentially Space Station Alpha with foreign parts attached to it. Most of the shit they have planned for the ISS could be more easily accomplished using unmanned satillites. And just so people will stop mentioning it. The ISS and any other orbital station CANNOT BE USED AS A FUCKING GAS STATION FOR "MORE COMPLEX MISSIONS". Get it through your fucking heads. The ISS is not large enough to even hold enough fuel to transfer to another ship going to Mars and theres no real way to get thatm uch fuel up there economically. It is MUCH FUCKING EASIER to go from the ground to a high orbit into a slingshot orbit and then to Mars than it is to stop a hundred miles above the fucking ground. Thats right, the ISS is VERY VERY VERY LOW TO THE GROUND. By the time a vehicle gets out of the atmosphere the most energy consuming part of the trip is over. Ever notice the absence of large fuel tanks on the probes we've launched into deep space?
It would be much more feasible to launch a larger number of smaller simpler space stations than waste a bunch of resources on a single complex station. It'd cost alot less for individual agencies to just launch their own modules with their own experiments on board. Collabaration is fine and ought to be encouraged (SI measurements, standardized parts and tools, similar computer systems). Deciding policy by committee is retarded and wastes far too much time. Its unfortunate everyone's been suckering into the political sham that calls itself the ISS.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Yeah, if they can only lure a few thousand more millionaires (unfortunately the dotcom bust has thinned out the supply recently) to cough up a few million each to visit, Mir 2 could practically be a profit center, or at least pay for itself!
If this works, watch out for "DisneySpaceBase" though....
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
There's no reason to have the ISS, much less an improved but still mostly useless copy
Firstly, one thing mentioned in the article is orbital inclination. There are things you can only do from certain orbital inclinations and heights, like observe parts of the earth
We have unmanned satellites for that. They've been doing the job just fine for years. A space station can't do a lot of that: too much vibration from the humans for the big scopes.
launch and retrieve probes and satellites
You're joking, right? The shuttle is bad enough: a virtually non-manuverable space station would be just dreadful at capture, and to launch you need to get into orbit in the first place. Since that's where all the cost is anyway, what possible benefit does a manned station have?
examine solar particles. There may also be experiments which can be performed using 2 stations, for example using interferometry.
That's what satellites do, and have been doing for years.
There's only one experiment that space stations are remotely good at: learning about long term human adaptation to space. They're useless for anything else, save perhaps as a tourist stop for billionaires. (Yes, I'd like to go, but lets be serious: I'll never have that kind of dough.) Microgravity experiments on Mir were pointless: the US tried sending an isolation mount up with one of the science modules since Mir vibrated so badly.
If the Russians were smart they'd pile the cash into cheap launch vehicles, SSTO if possible. Until the cost of Earth -> orbit flight comes way, way down the ISS and its cousins are just ways to keep astronauts employed.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I don't know what this guy has against Russia, but I can think of a few reasons why having more than 1 space station would be good.
Firstly, one thing mentioned in the article is orbital inclination. There are things you can only do from certain orbital inclinations and heights, like observe parts of the earth and other celestial bodies, launch and retrieve probes and satellites and examine solar particles. So 2 satellites can do things that 1 can't.
There may also be experiments which can be performed using 2 stations, for example using interferometry.
It will also be good for advancing space technology, especially if one of the countries with the most experience in space launches another station. The fact is Russia will not be able to do all it wants to with the ISS because it is only a partner. I'm sure MIR2 would also be much cheaper than the ISS, more people would be able to perform experiments on it.
Russia is also far more open and cooperative these days, so all space agencies would learn a lot. If we are ever going to send people to mars or for long missions elsewhere we are going to need to know a lot more than we do now.
Finally, I can't be the only person who wants more money to be spent on space exploration. The governments of the world seem to be adept at rationalising funding for the military, spying on other countries and harsher law enforcement but when it comes to advancing the human race they decide it has to be economically viable.
It's 2001, weren't we supposed to have acheived much more by now? Our industrial production and economy is supposed to be a geometric progression, where are all the things we should be able to acheive with all our wealth?
Well I am sure the timing of this publicity has something to do with the auspicious date - 40th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin's flight into space.
Celebrate Yuri's Night near you!
Countries may have different use for orbital stations. Countries may want not to share some research. There are many very valid reasons to build a national space station, including spy and other military use (with no weapons).
As mentioned above, ISS is indeed overdesigned and too expensive. This is because of much stricter standards that were applied, as if spaceflight can ever be as safe as a walk in a park. Russia indeed can build a space station for a price of one module. They already have a spare FGB module that they want to launch and link with ISS.
And what's wrong with "group of engineers floating ideas"? That's what engineers do. What else a designer of spaceships should do? Twiddle thumbs? Send a resume to Saddam?
With regard to lack of money, people often mistake poor citizens for poor state. USA is full of homeless people, but that does not make USA as a state poor. In Russia salaries are low but the state firmly controls oil, gas and other exports. In 1980 an average salary was about 150 rubles, or from $10 to $200 depending on how you convert. This had no effect on space program!
Said that, Mir-2 can become a reality if Duma and President approve. There is some small but visible support of such idea. The infrastructure is already there, rockets, factories and people. This is a lot - most countries on the planet would have no clue even where to start, not mentioning that only Russia and USA have sufficient launch capabilities. This project would not be overly expensive.
When it comes to space stations, the Russians are the experts. I'd trust them to build a space station far more than the Americans, on account of they have the most expertise on what works.
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
With the cultural dominance of the US, and NASA inspecting every last component that other countries wish to add to the ISS, they don't have a hope of putting the sophisticated radio scanning, optical recognition and audio amplification equipment that they would like to add to it. Therefore they have to consider building their own.
Out of the depths of the ocean...
Comes the least anticipated sequel of all time...
If you thought "Mission to Mars" actually held your attention for its first half hour...
If you survived "Titanic" without a dry tear or a noose...
If a 51.6-degree inclination captivated your emotions until its despairing plummit towards Mother Earth...
Prepare to Experience the Awesome Power of Over 51.6 Degrees of Inclination
Witness Its Power Increase After Guest Cameo Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor comes along.
From Russia With Love Comes:
MIR 2: THE UNWANTED JOURNEY
A Mikhail Synelshchikov Production
Rated FP-13, parental guidance suggested
Coming Soon to a JonKatz review near you.
Maybe this one will hit the Taco Bell target so we can all get free tacos!!!
Arathres
I love my iBook. I use it to run Linux!
stainless steel
1) Not all experiments can be performed by unmanned satellites (see other post)
2) A mission to Mars powered by a plasma drive is planned to launch in 2023. The ship must refuel in space. If the ISS is still up then, it'll be used for refuelling.
3) It'll be the launching pad for other unmanned missions, eliminating some cost of building special purpose rockets for getting things out of orbit.
4) For any further exploration to occur, we must study the very long-term affects of near-zero gravity on humans. That means having something intended to remain in space longer than a shuttle.
I'm not saying the ISS is the best answer to these problems, but it's what NASA and others have chosen to go with. There are also corporations working on many independant projects that would otherwise have to be done on the ISS. So don't think NASA's the only set of Americans working on space projects.
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Developers: We can use your help.
I wonder how much duct tape that the Mir2 will be using to hold itself together.
Any competition is good competition when it comes to space. The Russian government currently cannot afford to actually implement the idea, but it's a noble thought. Right now there is no space race, and thus no great urge to push the envelope on what is possible. We need to feel pressured to exceed the limits of this small world we live on and reach out.
The Russians do have a great deal of practical experience and know how when it comes to space stations. The ISS benefits greatly by their participation. Unfortunately for using them to foster a sense of competition, the official russian economy is in no shape to split it's finite space resources between the ISS and any space station of their own.
Few nations have the economies and the drive necessary for a successful self-funded space program, and Russia is sadly not currently one of them. About the only nation besides the United States of America that has the resources and is at least tentatively willing to spend them is the People's Republic of China. The People's Republic of China simply has the problem of being ten to twenty years behind the United States of America in terms of space technology. Even with this gap, the People's Republic of China is our current best hope for an independant competative space program.
The more nations that have agressive space programs the better. Although let's drop this orbiting space station farce and use an existing satellite that has raw materials to build with, the moon.
...so these plans are likely 10 years old, and probably look somwhat like the Russian part of ISS, since that's what the Russian part of ISS was based on. Notice his comments about the insufficient power... hence the (way behind schedule) Russian Science and Power Platform on ISS. (For the curious, the best reference I've seen on the Russian side of ISS is http://www.russianspaceweb.com.)
It's unfortunate the Russians can't get behind the ISS from a national pride point of view. I get the warm fuzzies when I think that this thing might actually work out... the next mission, going up April 19th, has Americans, a Russian, a Canadian, and an Italian going up... if this keeps up, maybe we'll finally be able to get rid of these stupid tribal sensibilities that have kept people at war for thousands of years...
Of course, that's probably against human nature. Oh well...
--
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.
- Nietzsche
Informative comment:
Russians have been building this design for a long time. They just dont have the money to launch it.
More design info here.
Site of the space station builders :
Insightful comment:
Russia had a very successfull space program, and has always been a step ahead of America. It has always amazed me that a land of communists, dictators and gulags could produce such enterprising science programmes.
Troll :
GOTO [Insightful Comment].
Moronic Comment:
Can u imagine a fscking Beowulf cluster of fscking Mir2 space stations ?
Flamebait :
Those Russian bfstards cant launch off a paper rocket any more, unless the US gives them a dime.
Funny Comment:
But does it run Linux?
...an idealistic group of young Russian engineers continues to develop the "low budget" approach.
When questioned, higher officials were cautiously optimistic, but expressed some doubt that a sufficiently large catapult could be ice-sculpted.
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...but Russia's economy could turn around in an instant. The people are quite enthusiastic about capitalism, they just haven't quite worked it out yet, and they have a lot very bright, well-educated people in a huge country with great natural resources.
To paraphrase R.A. Heinlein, they're broke on paper, but they have real wealth, and the latter can always fix the former.
Don't be surprised if this thing goes up in a couple of years.
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