Slashdot Mirror
Dutch Propose Digital Information Safes
spam-it-to-me-baby writes: "Telopolis writes The Dutch Government is considering a commission proposal to offer the country's citizens a 'digital safe-deposit' box for personal and financial data as a means of speeding up the government's administrative process. The article says the Dutch Government's current register of population "holds on every Dutch citizen about two hundred items of personal data, like name, date and place of birth, tax number, partners, children and other parts of the 'administrative course of life'." "The police, tax office, pension funds and other organisations which are allowed to access these personal data should get an interface for direct access to the digital safe-deposits. The commission thinks this will discourage fraudulent behaviour," it says."
This is an excellent idea, because I have been looking to digitally safe guard all the pr0n I have been collecting. Goooooo Dutch Go!!!
Yep, the government is even advertising for this: "The Netherlands go digital" (Nederland gaat digitaal). It seems to me that the Dutch government is profiling itself to be as renewing as possible, they try to be a trendsetter whenever possible: like in legalizing softdrugs, prostitution, euthanasia etc..
Oh yes, privacy is much better in the US. You should be glad to live in the US. In the US everything is much better. It's this kind of whining which irritates the hell out of me. Wake up will you?
That would probably be our fearsome leader Wim Kok (no pun intended :)
For example, credit reference agencies store highly personal details regarding use of, say credit cards, but without sufficient detail to give a complete picture of a customer, which can easily lead to discrimination against the unwary. For example, if you consider buying a car on credit, and agree to let several companies to make enquire, someone with an exemplary record can easily become a suspicious character as no record is made of their decision to decline an offer. There is a conflict of interest here, as the vendor would like customers it has chosen to accept to be considered bad risk elsewhere as this increases their chance of making a sale. A similar conflict arises with credit card companies. Capital-One has been in the news in the UK for delaying dispatch of statements, giving customers only a few hours to make payments on time. A late payment acts as a black mark against a customer on a central register, a number of which can prevent the customer switching to another lender. Hence, for both long and short term prosperity, credit card companies need to identify low risk customers, and to engineer a situation in which their customer makes late payments, as this involves large charges and also effectively ties in the customer for the foreseeable future. Amusingly, as assets are not part of a credit history, an individual's record can brazenly show multiple late payments on a £10,000 store card, yet fail to mention that this is in relation to a dispute over, say a £5.00 misapplied charge falsely giving them a balance, and woefully fails to mention a consistent large credit balance at the customer's bank. Furthermore, once the customer has been declined credit, this can be a further obstacle in the future - even should it be proven that the decision was unfounded.
I for one would welcome any transparent system - and would like to see a minimum requirement that agencies explicitly inform subjects when they store personal information; that the agency undertakes the burden of proof in cases of disputes, and that they are required to prove the accuracy of their information within a predetermined timescale. At present, in the UK (and I understand the USA too) the procedure is that individuals must contact the agency, paying a nominal charge, on any occasion they feel concerned, which is invariably too late. Naturally, the agency says it's only storing information provided to it by third parties, and if this information is wrong then the customer should take this matter up with the originator of the "information" who, naturally, insists that their version of events is accurate unless the customer can demonstrate that they adhered to reams of nebulous fine-print on every occasion in their distant history... nigh impossible!
So what's better...having a secure central cache of personal information that *you* control...or having many many levels of duplication of paperwork of all your personal information scattered over various institutions in the hands of everyday paper pushers?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
There are many fucked up laws in the UK at the mo (Regulation of Investigory Powers act, Criminal Justice act, etc.) and the whole CCTV big brother thing sucks. But data protection regulation is very good, and now applies to non digital data too. The data protection act is very useful for getting information out of people who collect data on you for a living and also as a stick to wield against stupid people. Example: the finance department of my University put an Excel file contianing the home addresses of all students in a shared directory on the campus LAN. Once I notified the Uni data protection oficer it was removed in about 10 minutes!
There are rules about government departments not sharing data unless neccesary, but everyone knows that it still goes on. The way to combat this is to make it hard for them to share the data, e.g. NOT by putting it all in the same place.
"What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death."
From all the things you have to do here to keep 100% legal, registering with the Population Register is the last one. The way things are set-up around here, you first register with the "Foreign Police", then with the "Tax Office" and finally with the "Population Register" of your municipality.
If i'm not mistaken you can even register with the "Tax Office" without being registered with the "Foreign Police".
I'm living here for more than one year now and NEVER, EVER, EVER got asked to show any identification to anybody as being registered with the "Population Register". Also, only once did i got asked to show my "Vreemdelinger" card ("Foreigner" card, literally "Alien" card - issued by the Foreign Police), and that was to register in the "Population Register".
You can live without any problems around here without ever registering with the "Population Register". I've know a couple of people who did it. Personaly, when i moved house (to a new municipality), i was a couple of months without signing-up to the "Population Register" of my new area (there's always something more important to do).
However for things that you do at the City Hall (like applying for a Dutch Drivers License - so that you can buy a car here), then you have to be registered.
From my point of view as a foreigner (and EU citizen), and as far as i can tell, if you don't buy a house here (just rent) or (maybe) get married (no big deal because non-married couples are a very popular thing around here and have lots of rights), then you could live your whole live without ever registering with the "Population Register" (buy the car in your country of origin and just drive it here).
I guess it's probably slightly different for the natives.
In Switzerland, for example, it is even illegal for cops to tap into the unemployments office database, since this is in no way related to their official tasks. They may tap into the DMV (equivalent) database, since this is significant for their work.
Save for th UK, which appears to be in the process of killing off any form of privacy, all European countries have similar or comparable data protection laws.
You might want to check out the European Data Protection Directive; a piece of legislation which pisses a lot of US business monsters mightily off.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
Well, there's a difference between being paranoid and realistic. We have privacy laws here, but law enforcement is a different story alltogether. This law provides in the right to have an insight in the data the government or a company have about you. If you want to use that right, and actually try to see the data, you're reminded of the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy: "Of course you can look in to the plans, they are in a locked cabinet in the unlit basement, behind a door which says 'beware of the tiger'". I actually tried to gather some information, and soon found out that it's easier to go through a brick wall by running very hard into it. So tell me again, am I paranoid of realistic?
Next time, whoever it is will not have to stand you in the streets until they find out all about you and write it down. You and your municipal government will have done it all for them, in advance.
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
I guess the commission took a good look at Quidam Quidam, a television series that ran on VPRO in Holland for a while. The series showed a hacker (a good one) in a rotten society in wich such a file was stored for every citizen by a national database. The most scary part of this where the thousands of people analyzing the security cameras that where all over the country in order to keep the peronal files as complete as possible. The most important man of the country was of course the head of this "National Database". I thougt the series was meant to show a distopia (negative or unwanted image of a possible future society). Unfortunately some people seem to have a different interpretation.
Still I'm glad to live in Holland, for at least we first have a public discussion on these topics. Instead of the USA where the government checks all e-mail (including mine) and does not allow encryptings that they can't read. And we certainly have less security cameras at this moment.
I checked the URL of Quidam Quidam, but it's only in Dutch.
This sounds a lot like Microsoft's HailStorm idea. The problem though is that it will be hacked, and the only question is when. Heck, with all the "government officals" being able to access it, it's easy enough to do some social engineering to get all the info at once.
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Fusion Industries
www.FusionIndustries.com
Just what every marketing company that rents data from the government wants. A perfectly organized database on the citizenry full of information that they don't want anybody to know.
The commission thinks this will discourage fraudulent behaviour.
Either that or encourage it.
I rest my case.
This is total privacy invasion, and people should protest against such mesures.
It's a good thing that personnal information on particular individuals is not trivial to get. Still, we all have some nice "primary key" attached to us, like the social security number...
give me all your garmonbozia
There's optional and there's "Optional". You want to live in something other than a cardboard box? Better play nice or we'll think you're suspicious...
A lot of the security we currently enjoy (in my country) stems from the fact that there is no easy way to get a compiled list of my person details without someone expending a considerable amount of effort to collect medical records from my doctor and to visit my bank. This has real potential to be a honeypot for opportunistic snooping and later ammendment, "of course you employer's insurer should be allowed to see your medical records to stamp out insurance fraud..."
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Well, we have the perfect solution (We=Belgium, just south of Holland) Over here you do not only have the right to vote but it is an obligation. Every adult must vote, not showing up that sunday morning is punished pretty hard (jailtime).
:-)
;-)
:-)
Doing this "the people who keep track of the living and dead" are also those those that "register voters"... In fact those tasks have become synonims: the "population register (bevolkingsregister)" is often called the "voters register (kiesregister)". Apparently children are not considdered part of the population by some politicians
A few years ago I found this obligation rediculous, but now, I'm convinced that it is the only way to have a real democracy. Once voting is optional, some groups of people might easily be intimidated not to vote. Remebering the protests of some "Black voters organisations" in the last US elections proves this point.
Back to topic: The Belgian government is years behind on the field of automatisation. still evey person over the age of twelve receives an Identity Card. From the age of 16 one is obliged to have it with him/her when leaving the home.
Like any ID it contains personal data like full name, date and place of birth.
Along with that there is also the "Rijksregisternummer". The "Primary Key" to all your data in governments databases / paper files. Currently you have the right NOT to have that number printed on the ID card, but any police officer (or school headmaster for that matter) can find it using name, place and date of birth.
Still, all data is not centralised and that's good: I do not want the police officer that pulls me over for a broken headlight to know that I didn't pay my last telephone bill and divorcing my second wife (imaginary example
Contrary to what the Dutch government is proposing, here there is a tendancy to _protect_ this fragmentation of personal data.
For medical databases there is allready a law to protect it from being sold or used by third parties. A negative result is that nobody can get its own medical file from his/her doctors
120 chars is not enough!
You may find it stupid or not, but putting out the garbage too early in the Netherlands is considered an 'environmental offence', I was fairly surprised too that they open the bags. I can really live with them opening my stinking garbagebags because I really would not like everyone to put out their trash whenever _They_ feel like it.. (*cough*)
And what the heck is wrong with openness. (I atleast expect support on Slashdot on this argument) Yes we do have nametags on every bloody door.. I think it is just sick that someone is even suspicious of the threat of 'stealing an identity'.
No, I do not mind my neighbours or for that matter you to be able to see me eating spaghetti every day because I like spaghetti (Hypothetically)
I consider Open(TM) windows, Large windows a lot better than windows-with-bars with gunowners behind them which are so scared or others that they'll shoot you as soon as you set one foot on their property. (And happily call that a right!)
I think I live in a, from a certain perspective, naive society.. But I am happy to be naive than!
We Dutch tend to view our government in a totally different way than e.g. Americans. If we are to believe the movies and the internet, the average American Joe's view of his government is a strange mixture of pride and suspicion: pride of the government's ability to take on any country on earth and suspicion of the goverment's intentions towards it's own people. (The embodiment of this last sentiment, if we are to believe Hollywood on this one, is the FBI. Are there any movies at all where the Feds are the good guys?)
The Dutch tend to think about their government in another way: a bunch of rather likeable, idealistic people. (You have to be idealistic in The Netherlands to go into politics, for there is little money to be made and little personal prestige to be gained.) The same goes for the police. A gullible breed that won't come after you unless you do something very nasty. We like it that way, and that may be the reason why the ''digital safe deposit'' subject is not that big an issue around here.
We put a lot of trust in our government. Perhaps to much. But consider this: whereas in America appr. fifty per cent of the people has every reason to feel misrepresented by their government, the Dutch tend to think that their government is a reasonable reflection of the people, because the representatives are chosen from a wide range of parties and by popular vote. A powershift as tremendous as the one we have witnessed in the US last elections is unthinkable here. That makes it easier to put your trust in the government.
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Being well balanced is overrated. -- John Carmack
Ok ... THIS one gives me a clear example of how much the US(i guess, correct me if im wrong) citizens trust their government :)
Well this MAY sound shocky to you guys but....
in the Netherlands "we" (and also i) still have quite some trust in the government and the governmental system, alltho i have lost trust in the american one. (if you want motivations im glad to give them, beginning with DMCA)
Someone must be quite insane to vote for Bush .... it seems a little less then half the population of the united states of amarica is insane. (dont take it personally)...... but when you wanna judge the Dutch political system look at the DUTCH and don't reflect your "personal" governmental sorrows on a foreign issues!!!!!!!!!
Now maybe when I go get my license renewed, I'll have to check a box reading "I do not wish to have my e-mail address sold to other companies."
Disclaimer: I'm Dutch, and not very happy with this plan.
From the perspective of efficiency it may be a good idea, but from the perspective of theft, misuse and privacy it's perhaps one of the most stupid ideas I've ever heard of. It's funny though that after fifty years the Dutch are planning to centralize their data again (not storing data in one central location is a leftover from WW II. The Germans could lay their hands on all public records in an matter of hours or days, and the Dutch government vowed to not let that happen ever again)
Anyhow, if the public can have a say in this, they are not going to have my vote!
Simply requiring adequate and difficult-to-forge identification at polling places (some might be shocked to find this is not required in the U.S.) would raise the cost of vote fraud to the point where it would fall to statistically insignificant levels. This, combined with cleansing the voter roles of felons and the dead, the latter of which would object less to having data about their status cross-referenced against registration lists, would restore a system that, in the U.S., is teetering on the edge of losing credibility.
I wrote parts of this stuff
I find this to be a bit disturbing idea, and I'm glad I'm not dutch. Personal information should be kept personal, and not not stored online by any means, especially not this amount of information. With the increasing amount of security incidents its a miracle this thing wasn't laughed at from the beginning.
Whats more disturbing is the fct that companies will lie in efforts not to disclose these breaches as some UK banks have done, which is an utter disservice to their clients. When will people get their heads right?
As if Biometrics is the answer to all problems. "some biometrics are easy to steal. Imagine a remote system that uses face recognition as a biometric. "In order to gain authorization, take a Polaroid picture of yourself and mail it in.We'll compare the picture with the one we have in file." What are the attacks here?" (taken from a Bruce Schneier article)
Personally I see a huge influx of identify thefts occuring there if they do go ahead with this system. Its bad enough its extremely easy to get information on anyone as it stands, and now you have the Dutch become more receptive to irresponsibly giving it away for free, to those who can manipulate their (often easily accessible) networks.
One thing I can say is, I'm glad we have groups in the US that counter these types of actions from seeing the light of day out here in the US. Your privacy should be guarded with your life, since it ultimately is your life. Not some stored bit of information legislators wanna use for political agendas such as pushing for an ecommerce or "digitalization" boost to their economies.
AntiOffline -- Securing the world from itself
360 degrees of Karma