Slashdot Mirror


Low-Level Radiation May be Mutagenic

The Night Watchman writes: "According to article on BBC news, scientists have determined that low doses of radiation can indeed cause alterations in human DNA that are then passed down to future generations. Apparently there was an 'unexpectedly high increase' in genetic mutuations in children born in the area after the Chernobyl disaster." This may shake up the scientific community, which has relied on studies of Hiroshima survivors to evaluate the long-term consequences of radiation exposure.

28 of 255 comments (clear)

  1. We don't know if low levels of radiation is bad by wayne · · Score: 3
    I've read several comments to the effect of "No Duh, of course low levels of radiation is bad!" and "the radiation levels from cleaning up Chernobyl is 'low'???".

    From what I know, much of the knowledge about how radiation effects humans comes from studies of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan during WWII. From these very high levels of radiation exposure, studies found that there was basically a linear relationship between the amount of radiation you received and the chance that you would get cancer. From this comes the "linear, no threashold" model of radiation exposure and the thought that all radiation, no matter how little, runs the risk of causing health problems. Most government regulations of radiation exposure is based on this linear, no threshold model.

    There are other people who feel that the linear, no threshold model is seriously flawed when dealing with low levels of radiation. They point out that radiation is a natural part of world, and the amount of radiation you are exposed to varries widely depending on where you are. For example, people living in Denver get much more radiation than those living in San Francisco because of their higher elevation. Also, when life first started to evolve on earth, the background radiation levels were much higher than today. The basic claim is that the body can usually deal with low levels of radiation, and it is only when you pass a threashold and overload it, that you start seeing a linear increase in health problems.

    Trying to determine if there is a threshold and how low levels of radiation really effect people is a hot area of study. Unfortunately, you can't ethically expose people to levels of radiation that might cause problems, so studies of Chernobyl survivers are of particular interest.

    There is actually another group of people who think that low levels of radiation is good for you. These people believe in something called "radiation hormesis". These people are generally considered idiots and quacks by most other people who study radiation.

    --
    SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
  2. BBC Anti-Nuclear FUD by morbid · · Score: 5

    As a former Reactor Physics Engineer at a UK powerstation I get very irritated by the BBC's irresponsible anti-nuclear scaremongering.

    Nowhere on the article are the actual doses quoted. People who cleaned up Chernobly are not or were not exposed to "low levels of radiation" or "low radation doses" by Western standards. They were fried.

    In this country the legal annual dose limit is 30 mSv (30 millisieverts) with a much smaller percentage allowable internal dose. The actual dosage to the most exposed workers at the Sellafield reprocessing plant is in the 10-15 mSv range per year, lower than the 20+ mSv ailine cabine crew recieve.

    I wish someone would post the actual doses here, whether external or internal, lifetime dose, dose rate, natural background etc.

    The BBC loves to stir up the publics' fear of nuclear power and reinforces their ignorance with their own biased tabloid style journalism.

    If you want to find out the facts about radiation doses, medical effects, and radiological protection, visit the NRPB website:
    http://www.nrpb.gov.uk/

    Rant mode off.

    --
    I'm out of my tree just now but please feel free to leave a banana.
  3. Re:Great, another strike against nuclear power by Detritus · · Score: 5

    If you are concerned about radiation, you should support nuclear power. Coal fired power plants release much more radiation, in the form of Uranium and Thorium, into the environment than nuclear power plants. That doesn't include all of the other nasty stuff that is produced by burning coal.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  4. Internal? by Matt2000 · · Score: 4


    From the article: "There are several indications in the report that the real problem is internal radiation."

    The article contrasts a hiroshima style massive external radiation burst vs. these Chernobyl defects which are from internal radiation. What does that mean? I thought all radiation was from an external source?

    --

    1. Re:Internal? by gorilla · · Score: 3

      Hiroshima affected a relativly small area. Food growing out of that area was not affected. Chernobyl affected most of Europe, to some degree or other.

    2. Re:Internal? by Phillip2 · · Score: 4
      "ummm...but what about the people at Hiroshima? Didn't they eat anything that was irradiated by the bomb? Or was it just so weak and brief that most of the foodstuff that grew later didn't have significant radiation?"

      The two released very different sorts of radiation. For instance Cherynobl released significant amounts of astatine, which gets pumped into the thyroid and massively concentrated. Hiroshima was mostly heavy metal which will get onto the skin, but I don't think will get ingested.

      It's always been known that different types of radiation have very different effects. I used to use P-32 a lot for instance. We used very low levels of radiation (compared to the levels physicists or engineers use for instance). But in our case we were using water soluble forms, which if ingested would be incorporated into your DNA. Not good.

      Phil

    3. Re:Internal? by Phillip2 · · Score: 4
      "I understand dust can get radiated too - don't they get inhaled into the body?"

      Well heavy metal contamination will occur as dust. Indeed yes this sort of dust can be inhaled. Personally I would not call this "internal", in the sense that the inside of your lungs are er, outside your body if you see what I mean. But yes this sort of dust would be dangerous. You would expect to see increased levels of lung, throat, and perhaps stomach (from food) cancer.

      "How about the air molecules? Oxygen? Nitrogen?"

      Both of these elements exist as radioactive forms. Except under a few circumstances I suspect that they would not be dangerous (as air) because they would dilute very very quickly. Of course following an explosion if there were any radioactive Oxygen its likely to end up as water, or other oxides and these would be a different issue.

      "Chernobyl was that the wind was going to carry radioactive particles to Western Europe and such, which doesn't seemed to have happened"

      It did happen. Chernobyl (which is the the ukraine) resulted in sheep in Wales being declared unfit for human consumption (it rains a lot in Wales, at least on the hills, so this is where the dust came down).

      Phil

    4. Re:Internal? by jhill · · Score: 3

      The people at chernobyl and it's outlying areas had to eat. The food they've been eating was/is contaminated with low levels of radiation. having not read the article, this is what I would guess as having seen documentaries on the subject.

  5. Nuclear waste a Problem? Thank Al Gore. by JJ · · Score: 5

    Back in 1992, there were two programs running at Argonne National Labs, near Chicago. The first was a fail-safe nuclear plant. It used liquid lithium as the transfer medium, with a gravity fed tank. The lithium protects against leaks, you can't cause a meltdown and when it retires, the reactor seals itself in. The second was a reactor that "burned" long half-life radioactive material and reduced it all to 50 year or less half-life material. That is MUCH easier to store, not requiring million year storage.
    What happened to both programs? The Clinton administration killed both of them, supposedly at Al Gore's insistence. I was asked to refute the VP's evidence. In one word, his reasoning was crap. Working prototypes of both reactors existed, they performed as advertised and were truly safe. But they were "nuclear" so Al Gore wanted them killed. Pure lip-service environmentalism. I was there, I performed the analysis, I reviewed the documentation.

    --
    So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
    1. Re:Nuclear waste a Problem? Thank Al Gore. by selectspec · · Score: 3

      Unfortunetly, Al Gore is not alone. The so-called Green movement has been anti-nuclear from day one without a shred of science (which is their standard modus-operandi). The reality of the Al Gore Ralph Nader world is what I call the Baby-Seal perspective. Its an approach driven by emotions and devoid of practical science and engineering. While I am sorry that California and the North East are suffering from energy shortages, nevertheless they have only themselves to blame. They along with the rest of the country need to wake up.

      Energy is civillization.
      Energy is Progress.
      More Energy is better than Less Energy.

      Measuring civillization throughout history in terms of energy/person directly coorelates to the standard of living and social/scientific advances.

      Fossil Fuels are a limited resource and they are the number one greenhouse gas contributer.

      To produce CURRENT world energy requirements using biomass, 2/3rds of the land surface of the Earth would have to be a corn field.

      To produce CURRENT world energy requirements using solar energy would require a solar panel with a surface area larger than the moon.

      To produce CURRENT world energy requriements with windmills would require roughly 4/5ths of the land surface of the Earth.

      So what is the answer. Nuclear.

      --

      Someone you trust is one of us.

    2. Re:Nuclear waste a Problem? Thank Al Gore. by pjp6259 · · Score: 3

      It sounds like you are talking about "feeder reactors" in your second example. They were a type of reactor that would create a much smaller amount of nuclear waste with a shorter halflife. I believe the reason they were not made, was because the uranium needed for them was weapons-grade, and they were afraid it would be too easy for terrorist to get it. Of course from what I remember this was before the Clinton administration that these decisions were made. It seems to me that it would be safer overall to allow these feeder reactors, but just use the same security at them that it is used for actual nuclear weapons sites.

      --
      Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
  6. Great, another strike against nuclear power by revscat · · Score: 3

    Well, here we go again. The powers that be have decreed that nuclear power is a Good Thing(tm), so now we have the forces opposing them are ramping up their efforts to show why this is not the case. I expect to see an increase in similar studies throughout the Bush/Cheney administration.

    Personally, I'm still all for nuclear power. There just seems to be this weird yin/yang thing that governs the generation of power, and nuclear power seems to be the one that -- when done properly -- causes the least harm. Coal plants put massive quantities of shit into the air, windmills & solar arrays don't generate enough to be worthwhile, and hydroelectric dams a) dessimate vast sections of land, and b) let off crazy amounts of methane from decomposing vegetable matter.

    So RAH for nuclear. It's cheap, lasts a long time, and apart and aside from the occasionally annoying meltdown, it's perfectly safe.

    - Rev.

    1. Re:Great, another strike against nuclear power by Xibby · · Score: 3

      That doesn't include all of the other nasty stuff that is produced by burning coal.

      Actually, Clean Coal power plants are rather impressive. The coal is ground into a powder, mixed with water, then turned into a gas. Somewhere in the process sulfer, etc. are removed and made into sulfuric acid, which is sold. The result is your powerplant is also a small chemical plant. I only caught the last few minutes of the spot on NPR, but it sounded interesting. Here is the segment from All Things Considered on Monday, May 07, 2001.

      --
      I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
  7. Umm.. okay.. by Coleco · · Score: 3

    "Scientist recently discovered that radiation causes genetic mutations. These and other groundbreaking discoveries in the pages of the medical journal 'Duh'."

  8. On the bright (glowing?) side by Yet+Another+Smith · · Score: 4

    Oh well, at least it will kick-start biodiversity.

    Hmm. I seem to be letting my humor get excessively dark.

    --
    if ($it != $onething) {$it = $another;}
  9. Heroes in a Half Shell by brianvan · · Score: 3

    Turtle power!

    (Sorry... with all these X-Men references, I had to bring Donatello, Leonardo, Michaelangelo, and Raphael into it. Don't forget Splinter. Or Bebop and Rocksteady. Or any of the other mutants in the comics/cartoon.)

  10. But it's also bogus. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3

    This is the important bit:

    "These results indicate that low doses of radiation can induce multiple changes in human germline DNA."

    ... the germline cells are there, packed with chemicals that prevent mutations (antioxidants for instance). Most of this is to *prevent* mutations that occur through malicious chemicals. Radiation doesn't really work that way. It will just penetrate through and nock of some basepares from the DNA ...


    However, most of the damage done by radiation is done by the creation of free radicals, which then damage the DNA by chemical reactions. So antioxidants are quite effective (though not perfect) at stopping radiation damage.

    The antioxidants are "expensive" nutritionally, (and humans evolved with less nutrition than is available in developed countries). So there's a feedback process to adjust their levels to limit free radical damage to an acceptable level without draining sometimes-scarce resources useful elsewhere. The bulk of free radicals in a cell come from the mitochondria (the cell's own "power plants").

    As evidenced by cancer rate vs. environmental radiation exposure, the location of the "thermostat" is such that if the cell is exposed to a CONTINUOUS, LOW LEVEL of ionizing radiation the free-radical scavenger production is increased so much that the net result is LESS mutation. Up to the point where free-radical scavenger production maxes out, continuous low-level ionizing radiation is actually a net gain. (The same is also true of certain free-radical producing chemicals - again with the continuous low-level caveat.)

    The problem with Chernobyl is partly that the level was NOT low, but mostly because the level was not CONTINUOUS. A short-term exposure to a high level of radiation is NOT equivalent to the same amount of radiation spread over years for a number of reasons, and a very big one is that the damage takes place before the levels of protecting chemicals can be raised.

    So finding damage to DNA in stem cells of people who were brought to Chernobyl to clean up, and thus suddenly exposed to a high rate of ionizing radiation for a short time, is no surprise, and has no bearing on the expected effect of long-term exposure to low levels of background radiation.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  11. Re:What they mean: by rkent · · Score: 3
    Good point. Which made me wonder about this part of the article:
    "A strong tendency for the number of new bands to decrease with elapsed time between exposure and offspring conception was established for the Ukrainian families.
    Which means, children conceived long AFTER the blast had FEWER mutations, right? But how can this be? If the parents' germline cells were damanged, "never again [to] figure out what the correct base was," why did the effect fade with time?

    ---

  12. Take a Geiger Counter in an Airplane! /Science Ma by mesocyclone · · Score: 4
    Science magazine, within the last two weeks, had a survey story on research into the effects of Chernobyl. From that story, it was clear that the predicted negative consequences of low dose radiation were so far below expected that sensitive studies could not find them at all - even in animals living next to the reactor. The 30km exclusion zone around Chernobyl is now a wildlife sanctuary, and a local biologist was quoted as recommending it as a place for wildlife rides!

    The only unexpected negative consequence was an unusually high rate of thyroid cancer in children, but this is not a true low-dose effect because the thyroid efficiently concentrates radioactive iodine. Fortunately, thyroid cancer is relatively benign and there have only been four deaths from it.

    Furthermore, a closer reading of the latest scare study shows that those exposed were not in the low dose group! They were workers at the facility after the event - those who were involved in cleaning things up. There is lots of evidence that low dose radiation is not as dangerous, per milli-severt, as high dose radiation. The linear dose-response model that is used by environmental agencies shows way too high a risk at low levels. This results in ridiculously low level requirements on nuclear plants - levels which, btw, coal burning plants exceed every day!

    A hypothesis on the nonlinearity of the dose response is that it DNA is self-repairing, it may take near-simultaneous hits on the same DNA to defeat that mechanism. Simple statistics shows that the odds of this, relative to radiation dosage, are far from linear.

    Does anyone remember the extremely high numbers of excess deaths expected from Chernobyl? To date, it has killed fewer people than a medium sized commercial airliner crash - and Chernobyl was a worst-case meltdown. Almost all of the deaths were among workers immediately after the event who received very high doses.

    Chernobyl was an uncontained reactor with a positive coefficient - loaded with graphite which burned once the temperatures got too high.

    And finally, if you really are worried about radiation, take a geiger counter in an airplane. You will watch the background level climb dramatically as the aircraft climbs. When I did this, it went from 26 clicks per minute to many hundreds - and I live in a high-background area.

    --

    The only good weather is bad weather.

  13. BBC Coverage of Science is Useless by briancarnell · · Score: 4

    This story is completely useless since it uses two equivocal and incompatible defintions of "low" (at the beginning the story implies that "low" levels of radiation cause mutations, but later it implies that levels of radiation that cause mutation is lower than previously thought, which could still be a very high level of exposure).

    They don't give the damn exposure data. Why can't they just give a rough range of the exposure that the people in this study faced?

  14. Executive Order by Tom7 · · Score: 3


    We need error-detecting and correcting DNA. Someone get on this.

  15. Why so much paranoia towards nuclear power? by the_mutha · · Score: 4

    I understand that there are a lot of environmental activists that strongly oppose the use of nuclear energy, however I would very much like to know what their main arguments are.

    It is true that Chernobyl was a humanitarian/environmental disaster of global proportions, however I feel that since that incident, nuclear power has been stereotyped as a devil energy souce.

    First of all, Chernobyl was a very old (one of the first designs, if not the first "production" design) nuclear power plant of the soviet era. Today besides the stigma arround nuclear energy, many advances have been made to nuclear energy powerplants, and there are designs of powerplants today which produce reclyclable radioactive wastes.

    Look at France. France produces, as far as I can remember (don't take my numbers for granted) 70% of its engery with nuclear power plants. Although their designs are much more modern than the Chernobyl design, they are not of the type that produce very little recyclable waste. I often feel that this is the case becasue research and development into nuclear energy power plants is avoided because of all the environmental PR hassle.

    I would be very interested to hear from some Nuclear Physisists out here that could enlighten us a little further on nuclear power energy, and how safe it REALLY is. France doesn't have an energy problem, and I think this is largely due to its heavy use of nuclear power plants.

    I can understand there must be a lot of pro-nuclear energy publicity coming out of the current Bush administration - since they probably feel that this is one of the ways to curb the energy problem in the US without creating too much polution from it.

    Again, I would love to hear some hard facts from Nuclear Physisists about the dangers and advantages of the current or potential nuclear power plant designs.

  16. These are still pretty high doses of radiation. by Enigma2175 · · Score: 5

    The /. article title: Low-Level Radiation May be Mutagenic is pretty misleading. The article concerned a study of people who cleaned up after Chernobyl. I wouldn't exactly call that "low level radiation". The focus of the study was to see if somatic DNA was being affected by the radiation, making the offspring of the cleanup crew have a greater rate of mutation than normal. The study results were pretty scary, but this is not something that was unknown.


    Enigma

    --

    Enigma

  17. Protect yourself by Alien54 · · Score: 3
    Well, some people are going to start marketing special suits to protect themselves. I do not, however, recommend this example made from aluminum foil. (check out the poor dog!)

    There is this very legit product from ShieldWorks. Check out their catalog

    And there is the world famous Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie

    It of course depends on what is the most important body part to protect as far as you are concerned. These mostly focus on protecting the brain. (Not that is is being overused by some folks)

    Other people may want to investigate protection for other body parts.

    There is a business plan in here someplace folks.

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  18. Au contraire mes amis by CowbertPrime · · Score: 4

    Actually, I attended a research seminar at the University of Connecticut Health Center, where someone else had shown that low-level doses of radiation actually "trains" the DNA-repair enzymes to be able to fix damaged DNA more accurately and with more efficiency. It was shown that if you subjected cells to low levels of radiation over a long period of time, and then exposed them to high levels, fewer cells mutated than if naive cells had been exposed to high levels of ionizing radiation without the "pre-treatment".

  19. Back in my lab days... by (H)elix1 · · Score: 3

    We use to work with radioactive iodine and phosphorus more often then I cared to, and had to wear the appropriate gear - including a radiation badges. One got left in the hood for some reason or other, and it was a little hotter than normal.

    Anyhow, a week after one of the new grad students starts working with our group, one of my cohorts picks up a Geiger counter, adjusts the sensitivity, and says, "lets check to see if your thyroid is doing OK". With one hand he placed the badge near his neck and moved the GC close enough to make a delightful pops.... The look on his face was priceless. Oh... did we get into the doghouse for that one....

    Anyhow, true low-level radiation is pretty safe. The cleanup crew at Chernobyl would not be dealing with levels I would call "low". Electricity scares the hell out of me, however. Few things terrified me as much as installing a new ceiling fan for my wife.

  20. What they mean: by Ubi_NL · · Score: 5

    This is the important bit:

    "These results indicate that low doses of radiation can induce multiple changes in human germline DNA."

    Mammals (including humans) have 'special' cells that have very low degradation in DNA. Normal cells are mutated all the time. This is not a problem as the DNA can take an enormous amount of mutations without changing its function (in fact, in a gene every third base can pretty much be changed at random without the gene product changing one bit). So, you don't want to make new organisms out of skin cells. Therefore the germline cells are there, packed with chemicals that prevent mutations (antioxidants for instance). Most of this is to *prevent* mutations that occur through malicious chemicals. Radiation doesn't really work that way. It will just penetrate through and nock of some basepares from the DNA. Remember: once a basepair is changed, the cell can never again figure out what the correct base was! Anyway, if you are exposed to a large amount of radiation, it can only be expected that the germline is effected as well.

    --

    If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
  21. How small of a dose? by diatonic · · Score: 5

    I've spent 4 years working in reactor chemistry, and over the 4 years have recieved 492 mrem of ionizing radiation exposure. When you train in a nuclear frield (I did with the US Navy) they basically tell you that small somatic doses of radiation are practically harmless. The real danger lies in a large chronic dose. We were always told that once a cell was radiated, for things could occur. The cell could have a good daughter, a bad daughter, a dead daughter, or no daughter. One of those things is not like the others, it's the bad daughter. It's cancer. Statistically if you are exposed to 1000 mrem (with data collected from Chernobyl) you increase your risk of cancer 0.06%. I would be curious to see if scientits will say is a dose that could change your DNA.