Posted by
CmdrTaco
on from the you-can-see-what-you-wanna dept.
wiredog writes "The EU report on the NSA/GCHQ/et al echelon system is up at cryptome" This is a fairly lengthy piece covering a lot of stuff relating to the feasibility of intercepting transmissions, Cryptography, Privacy and more.
Echelon crosses the line.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2
Echelon is wrong for these reasons:
1) We are told we have a set of freedoms and that we are so much more democratic than the non-'Anglo Saxons' as you put it, and that these freedoms are worth defending. I do not see how spying on the citizens of the world, while claiming that we have the right to privacy advances the cause of freedom. It happens to advance the cause of the states involved but not the nations involved. There is a distinction between believe in freedom and one's flag.
2) Simply because it is run by democracies, does not make it democraticly controlled. Ollie? Any thoughts? Have you been asked by your local political representative whether or not you actually support such a system? No, we were not told of it until this Englishman raised the alarm. Only when the cat was out of the bag did it become a political issue. It is an organization that does not face normal checks and balances like most government operations. Sure, a director has to have a somewhat uncomfortable yearly meeting with some other director but for an operation of this nature, public scrutiny dearly needed.
3) Our present government may be good overall, but future goverments may not. Will I be held accountable for this post in 30 years? (Here I am opposing my government's policy.) I honestly don't know.
Hitler was elected. Giving future governments insights into my private thoughts via my private faxes, emails, etc. is not such a wonderful idea. Even today one cannot predict the next fixations of our governments: today drugs and cracking, yesterday booze, tomorrow protesting the WTO? Pr0n? All these wars have casualties in ruined lives, for better or worse.
Civil Rights and specifically Privacy is an ideal that people hold to for a reason. This program makes it clear to citizens that our Privacy is not as important to our governments as we were told. One has to then ask: what's next on their list?
I won't tell the Arizona Nuclear Power Plant that you plan to blow up their transmission lines to California. I won't tell the FBI that you are planning on moving those illegal fire arms into New York tonight.
Why not these two? They are illegal, there is no possible justifying circumstance (#2 would hopefully be covered by freedom of speech, and I'm not even going to touch number 1, this will be flamed enough as it is), and if they had been found through a traditional wiretap on a phone there would be no objection to the feds moving in.
Re:Echelon isn't the best system...
by
Have+Blue
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· Score: 3
Right now, though, the illuminati uses "Daedalus" which analyzes all data that travels through every type of wire known to man.
Obviously the only solution is to sneak into Area 51 and blow up the Aquinas Hub... Bob Page might get angry though:P
Is it just me, or does anyone think that all these reports on Echelon are just smokescreens for what they're *really* doing? After all, it's exponentially easier to compromise the datacenter (get a mole hired there, Van Eck phreaking, drill through the floor & set up a tap) where the fiber cable ends than it is to send a submarine to do a (risky) cable splice.
Re:Economic & political consequences
by
jafac
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· Score: 2
But the spying was IN SUPPORT of the sanctions, and the enforcement of the sanctions.
Jeezus fucking christ! It's not like the US was stealing secrets on techniques of developing and building newer and better weapons of mass destruction! Iraq is like 60 years behind the US in that technology, and if they weren't cheating on their sanctions, our spying would not have yeilded any results anyway? It was certainly not "spying" in the conventional sense of the word. And even if we weren't spying, they would have found some other excuse to chase out the inspectors - The Iraqi Parliment has declared the UN null and void for crying out loud? The world is LUCKY that the US did that spying, because when the inspectors DID get kicked out, we knew exactly where to hit them. If the inspection process won't stop them, force is your only fallback measure - so the spying was necessary to deal with an intransigent opponent. Oh no, we stole the top secret plans for Saddam Hussein's giant vibrating golden dildo he uses to pleasure his harem! HA HA! Nobody can stop the US now!
Iraq is looking for any excuse they can to justify building weapons so that they can attack Kuwait, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, and it's own citizens. Unless you want to pay $50/gal for gas, and watch millions more die, they simply must be stopped at all costs.
Frankly, I don't see why that regime simply isn't removed from power. All this pussy-footing around with legal sanctions and decrees has been given a chance to work, and guess what? every day since the last day of the Gulf War, it has been proven NOT to work. All it does is prolong the suffering of the Iraqi people under the dictator Saddam.
-- These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Re:Economic & political consequences
by
jafac
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· Score: 2
Scuds were designed and built in Russia. Not a domestic product of Iraq - though they were later given plans and learned to copy them. The home-built variety of Iraqi Scuds had a much higher failure rate, and tended to break up on reentry.
-- These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
crulx
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· Score: 2
I assume you are being sarcastic here, he knows why he was put under survailance. But I would like to take this time to point out that the "information" you presented is factually incorrect.
Higher Cannabinoid yields are better for the user. THC
is a medically safe compound with no longterm effects. That is why we have Marinol, because THC is safe. Smoking it, on the other hand, isn't so good for you. So a higher potency means less smoke for the same lvl of high. You seem to cast it in a bad light, it isn't in any logical sense.
The potency of THC in a Cannabis plant varries on several conditions. Freshness, plant genes, growth practices all effect how much THC are in the plant. This was just as true in the 60's as it is now. High yielding plants were available in the 60's just as now. 30 years of breeding cannot alter a plant that much. Low THC yield plants still abound.
If you spent the time to write your reply, consider spending that time reading up on the subject you are replying to. Reference links,
such as one on the actual potency of Cannabis,
would go a long way in helping your argument out.
---
crulx
An interesting summary of this story
by
Johann
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· Score: 4
can be found here. --
"In the land of the brave and the free, we defend our freedom with the GNU GPL."
-- "You're gonna need a bigger boat."
- Chief Brody
http://www.ntk.net/
Not sure how we managed to report this one before Slashdot, but the European Parliament report on Echelon is (leaking) out all over the place, with the following recommendations included: that the Member States "develop and manufacture encryption technology and software and above all to support projects aimed at developing user-friendly open-source encryption software", and "public administrations of the member states are called upon systematically to encrypt e-mails so that ultimately encryption becomes the norm".
Looking forward to running the diffs on the final, published report.
US-centric perspective, again . . .
by
Goonie
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· Score: 2
OK, let's put this into perspective for American readers. How would you feel if, say, France, was spying on every bit of civilian US phone and Internet traffic they could get their hands on. Would you be impressed if, say, the Alaskan and the Nevadan state governments were leasing them sites for the receivers to do so? Would you be impressed if the French were using the information to help, say, Airbus win contracts over Boeing?
I think the EU has every right to be pissed off that the US is using the UK to spy on the other European countries.
Just because Americans feel just relaxed and comfortable about spying on the rest of the world (including its UKUSA partners - I believe it was Ronald Walker who revealed that the US was spying on the Australian government) doesn't mean the rest of the world has to like it, and if it involves bases on non-US territory, doesn't have to put up with it.
Go you big red fire engine!
--
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Quit writing all this stuff. Someone has to find all of it and change it every time we switch allies. Be considerate of your neighbors who work in the Ministry of Truth! Thanks. This has been a public service "suggestion" from the Large Male Sibling.
Thank you for pointing that out. As a Visigoth, I felt a bit slighted by being omitted from the protection of Echelon. Can't be too careful with all these Romans milling about.
Re:Echolon is our front line.
by
cygnus
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· Score: 3
"Echelon is controlled democratically, but it is the undemocratic knife edge that defends and ensures the existance of our democratic Anglo Saxon realms. "
you have a point, but your usage of the term "anglo saxon" is pretty offensive. this country is made up of a variety of ethinc lineages, and anglo saxon by no means has even a plurality, let alone a majority.
also, echelon doesn't have anything to do with WWII, the Nazis, or preventing the plunging of Europe into a pit of darkness. the UKUSA alliance dates back to 1947; echelon to 1971. check it out:
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
HamNRye
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· Score: 2
First of all, NEVER let a search proceed without a warrant. Even if you are doing something illegal. (Heck, ESPECIALLYif you are....) The reason is this: In the event they do find something incriminating you can contest the grounds by which they got a warrant in the first place.
Also, the police were never precise about what they were looking for. Or how they knew how to look. And no, proving them wrong would not make them look like idiots, it would reaffirm for them the belief that SS tactics will work in America.
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
HamNRye
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· Score: 2
First of all, NEVER let a search proceed without a warrant. Even if you are doing something illegal. (Heck, ESPECIALLYif you are....) The reason is this: In the event they do find something incriminating you can contest the grounds by which they got a warrant in the first place.
This is why we shouldn't let 12 year olds post to these forums. This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Perhaps we should let the government wire your house with video cameras. Heck, I'd rather know that they were watching you 24 hours a day so that you couldn't build fertilizer bombs in your garage. Perhaps after Littleton, every parent should wire their kid's rooms so that we know their not hoarding weapons.
I could have also saved myself alot of trouble by not having walls, would you reccommend that too??
Have you ever heard the saying "Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither"?? Get it through your sloping forehead, liberty is something you defend, not something you are given.
Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
HamNRye
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· Score: 5
I for one do not believe that this government expects us to believe that a system like Echelon will not be used against the citizens of this country. If most people understood what the modern govt. already does to "identify" possible lawbreakers, they would be shocked.
The U.S. Government is known to publish at least 30% of the hate magazines published in this country. There are automated reviews of your utility bills that seek certain patterns. Random IR thermal imaging is employed by almost every city with a population over 250,000. I could keep going on.
These techniques are used to identify people for the local police to investigate. They are illegal, and any evidence cannot be used in court, but they do lead the police to people and then it just gets worse.
I found out about this 6 years ago. I stared growing hydroponic veggies and bonsai etc.... I purchased some nice Hydro equipment from a catalog store, including a big MH light etc... I was initially harassed approximately 5 months after purchasing the equipment. 2 police showed up at my house and said that due to a high volume of people coming and going from my house (my mother was my only visitor all day) they had "probable cause" to search, and I should just let them in. When I refused, they started threatening, etc.
They could never get a warrant, because they could not justify it. So instead, they went through my trash, tapped my phones, put my house under surveilance, followed me to work and stooping me and giving me tickets and they trying to search my car.
To make a long story short, I sued for harrasment, and it was revealed that they got my name and address from the hydro store, (govt. run) and then watched my house for the light to start, and then waited 5 months so they could catch me "at harvest". The only problem is I was growing Roma tomatoes and a lime tree.
"Mother should I trust the Government???"
~Hammy
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
WNight
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· Score: 2
Well, I agree with you, even if nobody else does...
The police don't have a right to search everyone just because they MAY be committing a crime, and I don't want them to be doing that. It's worth a bit of personal discomfort to collect the evidence and prove to people that the police are doing these things.
This is especially true with a stupid law like the criminalization of pot. It they were searching your building for someone who had built a bomb and taken out an airliner, I'd be a little more willing to co-operate. Especially if laws were changed to forbid police from searching you for one reason and arresting you for something else they see while in there. (I think they should be able to act on very serious crimes, like if they search you for drugs and find human remains, but not if they search you for drugs and discover cuban cigars, or copied DVDs, etc.)
btw, I can't say anything about hate magazines, but I remember an article a while back that said the same thing about kiddy porn, the goverment comes very close to entrapment in its production of this (well, rerelease of existing material, I'd assume) to snare anyone who tries to order more.
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
BradleyUffner
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· Score: 2
They could never get a warrant, because they could not justify it. So instead, they went through my trash, tapped my phones, put my house under surveilance, followed me to work and stooping me and giving me tickets and they trying to search my car.
Hmm.. looks like you could have saved 5 months of trouble if you had just shown them what it was being used for. It would have made them look like idiots too. =\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\ =\=\=\
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
-Harlequin-
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· Score: 2
You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you let the police come in and see that you weren't growing any pot, stupid.
Or caused a lot of trouble for himself when they nabbed him for something else. Police will quite happily tell you that if they want to nab you on something, they can easily find something - no-one is 100% compliant with all laws. Letting a cop into your house who is highly suspicious of you is asking for a trip downtown.
And the bottom line is, in a free society, the police should not stop you in the street and ask to see your "papers" like the SS. A house search is even worse. And being harrassed because you dared to use your civil rights is unforgivable.
I'm disgusted by people who think that it is right and proper that the police should be able to harrass people, and have the gall to blame the victim for their "stupid" refusal to throw away their rights. People have civil rights for a reason, and if failing to waive your rights (at the unjustified request of the authorities) is as good as actually commiting a crime, you're right back in Nazi Germany. Is this so difficult to grasp?
Re:Make a man a slave to keep him safe??
by
ryanwright
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· Score: 2
Hmm.. looks like you could have saved 5 months of trouble if you had just shown them what it was being used for. It would have made them look like idiots too.
You can't be serious. Who in their right mind would let the police search their house without a warrent? Certainly not I. The last house we lived in was not very well oriented to the sun. My wife and I are plant lovers and had to put banks of full spectrum florescent lighting throughout the house to keep our plants alive while we lived there. We're talking basic houseplants here, folks. At night, a large window at the front of the house lit the entire street up due to the lighting in that room.
We didn't get harassed, but a cop lived down the street and I'm sure it was only a matter of time. Had he knocked on my door and asked what the lights were for, I would have simply smiled and said, "Wouldn't you like to know?" I wasn't doing anything illegal, but if law enforcement wants to look through my house, they're not doing it without a warrant. Fuck 'em. Make 'em go through the work. And do as Hammy did, if they illegally harass you, sue the sons of bitches. The whole war on drugs has gotten so out of hand that innocent citizens are being victimized, and I for one will make their lives as miserable as I can if they try to pull that shit on me.
You may be upset that the system makes mistakes, or that the system can be abused... that makes me upset, and rightfully so. But not having one in place at all would be ridiculous as well. And irresponsible. It is not an easy answer, never will be, but that is the nature of the world we live in.
Well and thoughtfully said, sir. Without any rancor or sarcasm, I humbly bow my head in defeat. You are right. Such a system is necessary, and the world would be a more dangerous place without it. The primary (and some say only legitimate) reason for a government to exist is to protect it's citizens from physical harm. SIGINT is an obviously necessary part of that. We must simply strive to make sure it is only used for the protection of life and liberty, not for petty economic espionage as the EU member states are claiming.
In an interview he [Mike Frost, former Candian secret service officer]gave for an Australian TV channel, he said by way of example that the CSE actually had entered the name and telephone number of a woman in a database of possible terrorists because she had used an ambiguous phrase in a harmless telephone conversation with a friend. When searching through intercepted communications, the computer had found the keyword and reproduced the conversation. The analyst was unsure and therefore recorded her personal details.
And to think I thought that the.sig fodder was silly! Doesn't look that way. And just to help Eris out, I shall henceforth be sprinkling my telephone conversations with random outbursts of "nu-coo-luhr terrorism", "anthrax", and "Backstreet Boys."
He [Wayne Madsen, former NSA employee] argues that the NSA had to concede that it held more than 1000 pages of information on Princess Diana, because her conduct ran counter to US policy, owing to her campaign against land mines
That is FUCKING INSANE. Because she held views counter to that of the Pentagon she's now a target for surveillance? CHRIST! I think marijuana and LSD should be legal, and have given money to several organizations who believe similarly. I guess that means the FBI, et al, have a ph1l3 on me because I question the governing orthodoxy.
FUCK YOU GUYS. And don't gimme any shit about "national security" because I will just throw up on your shoes. Oh yeah, we live in a free country. As long as you don't mind the fact that the government regularly compiles information on people that they don't like, even if they are peace loving activists like the goddamn Princess of Wales.
Where's Noam Chomsky when you need him?
As early as 1988, the Max Plank Institute estimated that the damage caused by industrial espionage in Germany amounted to at least DM 8
billion. The chairman of the association of security consultants in Germany quotes a figure of DM 15 bn a year, based on expert evidence.
The President of the European police trade unions, Hermann Lutz, puts the damage at DM 20 bn a year. According to the FBI, US industry
suffered losses of US$ 1.7 bn as a result of competitive intelligence and industrial espionage in the years 1992/1993. The former chairman of
the Secret Service monitoring committee of the House of Representatives in the USA has spoken of losses of US $ 100 bn sustained through
lost contracts and additional research and development costs. It is claimed that between 1990 and 1996 this resulted in the loss of 6 million
jobs.
Encrypt people, encrypt! And roll out IPv6, cuz it's got packet level encryption. It'll help bunches.
- Rev.
Re:Interesting snippits
by
-Harlequin-
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· Score: 2
I firmly believe that the only reason that the US has not had a nuclear explosion on the mainland from a small nuclear bomb is because the intelligence community is running some hellacious interference that we never hear about.
This would all be fine and dandy, except that the only reason the USA is at risk of a nuclear explosion in the first place is because it's intelligence community pulls the kind of shit in other countries that makes people willing to sacrifice their own lives just for some slight payback. Not sick twisted people, normal healthy people like you or me.
If your wife, the light of your life, angel of innocence, is killed by the operations of foreign terrorists (the CIA) who are acting not for "national security" but to secure the flow of dirty money (which they think is the same thing) to their country, normal people develope a pretty big, and entirely justified grievance. And they sometimes have little left in their now-empty lives except to act on it.
In the Big Picture, salvation from bombs is not in winning an intelligence agency arms race, but in a foreign policy that doesn't create the need to bomb us in the first place. There are many countries or blocs of nations as big and/or powerful as the USA. Very few, if any, have the terrorist fears of the US. Why? Because very few act as if making lifelong enemies is inconsequential next to making money and playing power games.
We reap what we sow. Unlike a missile defence shield, a change in foreign policy can actually stop a nuke in a suitcase. And it won't cost billions. (unless you count the lost earnings from illegal arms trade and the like:-).
FUCK YOU GUYS. And don't gimme any shit about "national security" because I will just throw up on your shoes. Oh yeah, we live in a free country. As long as you don't mind the fact that the government regularly compiles information on people that they don't like, even if they are peace loving activists like the goddamn Princess of Wales.
Just to play devil's advocate, and to add another POV to this. Compiling this information on Princess Diana was extreme, but do you want the other extreme? Where we are completely in the dark about potential threats to US policy and or security? Just so you can download your porn without anyone knowing? The fact is, there are people out there that don't give a damn about you, your freedoms, or your life. I firmly believe that the only reason that the US has not had a nuclear explosion on the mainland from a small nuclear bomb is because the intelligence community is running some hellacious interference that we never hear about. We know that there are people out there with nuclear material to construct highly destructive WMD which I have no doubt will, eventually, be used. The only other obstacle would be the engineering required to construct the bomb, but honestly, how hard would it be to find a corrupt engineer and pay him big bucks?
So the question is, don't you think that it is wrong NOT to keep tabs on information that could prevent terrorist attacks or otherwise put the lives of people at risk? The government has an obligation and a contract with the people to protect them from attack from both foreign and domestic enemies. It would be absolutely irresponsible to ignore this aspect of the equation.
You may be upset that the system makes mistakes, or that the system can be abused... that makes me upset, and rightfully so. But not having one in place at all would be ridiculous as well. And irresponsible. It is not an easy answer, never will be, but that is the nature of the world we live in.
You claim to be righteous, but you supported those causes. Diana outwardly was harmless, but she was against U.S. policy.
If keeping yourself from being investigated by the security police was as easy as holding a bunch of flowers and saying "peace, man," then terrorists would be poster children from Haight-Ashbury.
If Diana had been found to be secretly meeting with and funding other causes inimical to U.S. policy--if Lord Blakeney had been found to be the Scarlet Pimpernel--then maybe you'd agree that keeping an eye on them once we got the first clue was a good idea.
N.B. I hold views counter to U.S. policy (Bush's abortion and energy stance, e.g.). I have also held DoD security clearances. When I retire in 30-odd years one of the things I'm going to do is submit FOIA requests for my FBI, CIA, DISCO, Army, and NSA files, spend a few weeks writing a commentary on them, and have the whole thing bound in law-calf.
--Blair
At least someone's acting as a privacy watchdog
by
yum_icecream
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· Score: 2
I find it sad that I have to rely on Europeans to be on the lookout for my privacy.
The (US based) apologists always point out that if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry. And that from a realpolitik point of view, the US/UK should be doing whatever's needed to gather intelligence on potential threats.
Since the EU doesn't really benefit from these arguments, I suspect that they decided to raise a stink untill the US/UK give some concessions to quiet them down. They probably want to share in any relevant intelligence that's relevant to their governments. They'll never really know if they're getting a complete account, but they'll be provided various intelligence tidbits that will placate them. Then this whole matter will be quietly dropped.
Until such time, the report will say
1) Zut alors! @e're being monitored!
2) Mon Dieu! If we are to get privacy, we must encrypt our messages!
3) Stop monitoring us or we'll get really upset and pout. We'll stamp our feet and make some noice.
Re:Echolon is our front line.
by
Hard_Code
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· Score: 3
Wtf is wrong with you boy? Is that a troll, or are you high?
"We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia."
The EU Report on the Echelon System = "Oh, oh! Must encrypt ethernet, oe else..."
(Well it's only one letter out;)
the same stuff I always say ...
by
karb
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· Score: 5
Surveillance of this sort lets us, oh, I don't know, fight terrorists and avoid wars.
The/. community tends to see technologies they like (napster) in the best possible light (but it can be used legitimately!!!!) and therefore justified. At the same time viewing any technology used by any government agency to do anything useful as the Tools Of Oppression, therefore a precursor to the End Of The World.
The truth of the matter is that there are precious few examples of echelon privacy violations I've seen, at least on slashdot... the french airplane thing, for example. Here's the/. version slowly transmogrified into what I gleaned from cnn articles.
The NSA is stealing industrial secrets from the french and giving them to american companies!! Because of that an american company beat a french company for a large contract to the saudi government!
Oh, wait, the NSA was stealing industrial secrets and giving them to the U.S state department!
Oh, wait, the NSA only told the state department that the french company was offering bribes to saudi government officials. Then the state department told other saudi government officials!
Oh, and the NSA only did that because Congress (remember, the people we elect) passed a Real Actual Law mandating that the NSA report corruption information to the state department when it could potentially harm a U.S. business.
Yeah, the NSA's obviously evil and amok. I'm sure all the boeing employees who kept their jobs hate the fact that NSA monitors communications in foreign countries.
--
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
Not Echelon -- a satellite control system, if memory serves. NRO likes to be constantly receiving and processing data from those eyes in the sky... probably a bit too much emphasis on them compared to HUMINT.
So that is what this SIGINT system signal really means!
--
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
Echelon isn't the best system...
by
FortKnox
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· Score: 2
Echelon isn't very powerful. That's what the government uses now that the illuminati granted them the ability to view it. Right now, though, the illuminati uses "Daedalus" which analyzes all data that travels through every type of wire known to man.
You think the wires in your house (even the electricity) go straight to plants without being tapped? The illuminati have your house completely tapped through every wire you own. The only escape is to be a hermit out in the middle of no-where. (see sig)
Re:Economic & political consequences
by
-Harlequin-
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· Score: 2
Iraq's problems are entirely of their own doing. Anytime they wish to allow UN weapon inspectors, the sanctions are gone
Unfortunately, the world is not as black and white as that. I do not dispute that the inspectors felt thwarted, and that they were being constantly mislead, but Iraq was fully justified in doing this because the USA was illegally using the inspections to spy on Iraq.
The premise was that Iraq would open itself to impartial inspections, and was guarenteed said inspections would not be used for US spying. In a sense, the US broke the arrangement first.
Now with that in mind, consider that Iraq did, for over a decade, allow the inspectors almost complete access to anything they wanted to see. Perhaps Iraq was obstinate over requests to see things that (in its view) had little to do with weapons and a lot to do with internal affairs (ie "while we're here, Saddam, mind if we do a little spying?").
So for ten years, Iraq suffered under sunctions while waiting for the inspectors to finish their inspection. Ten years and there was no sign the end of sanctions was even close. "We've been had!" Iraq concludes "They ain't ever going to say they're satisfied - they're going to keep sanctions in place until Saddam is gone. The dirty lying bastards!".
Can't say I blame them actually.
To claim that Iraq's problems are entirely of their own doing is verging on ridiculous IMHO. The USA has done a whole lot behind the scenes, and it sounds like you're overlooking quite a bit of it. Of course, it's not like US media puts much effort into covering that sort of thing:-)
That a system for intercepting communications exists, operating by means of cooperation proportionate to their capabilities among the USA, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, is no longer in doubt. It has been established that this system is operated on the basis of the UK/USA Agreement. That its name is in fact ECHELON seems likely in view of the evidence, but this is a relatively minor detail. What is important is that its purpose is to intercept private and commercial communications, and not military communications. Analysis has revealed that the system cannot be nearly as extensive as some sections of the media have assumed.
So we can come to the conclusion that we only need to be a little paranoid when it comes to the US government?
-- "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Re:Echelon is our front line.
by
Caraig
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· Score: 2
I'm sorry, Lover's Arrival, but I must disagree.
Echelon is an infomration-gathering system. The theory behind its operation is that it picks up key words in open communications. It cannot pick out encrypted words. By "encrypted" in this sense, I mean messages within messages, such as one phrase meaning something completely different than what it sounds. (For example: "Climb Mount Niitaki," I think, was the phrase used to initiate the Imperial Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. This phrase would ot have been picked up, if Echelon was operating during WWII, which it was not, since there are no "key" words for Echelon to latch onto, such as "bomb," "attack," "aircraft carrier," and the like.) Some people have claimed that Echelon has been expanded to enable it to monitor Internet traffic.
Furthermore, military traffic of a sensitive nature is sent encrypted over non-civilian channels. Echelon's entire purpose is the monitoring of civilian channels. This is of importance when combatting an insurrection or rebellion, when the participants will most likely need to rely on the existing civilian information infrastructure. However, when facing a full-fledged military force (or an insurrection force equipped by a foreign power with military-grade equipment) Echelon will fail because the targets of surveillance will no longer be using civilian channels.
This lends credence to the assertations of a report to the European Parliament in 1988 that Echelon "ECHELON is designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organisations and businesses in virtually every country." (Reference) (In fact, go here to learn about the ACLU's take on Echelon.)
Echelon is intended for domestic monitoring. The only possible use such a thing could have is to monitor a nation's citizens for insurrection and seditious activities. The legal and moral grounds for a government to monitor it's citizens and persecute them for these crimes depends upon whom you ask.
Just as a point of fact:
It provided much defense against the nazi threat in WWII.
It did not. Echelon's groundwork was laid in 1947 as part of the UKUSA agreement, in which the United States and the United Kingdom (and by extension the British Commonwealth) would coordinate intelligence activities and share information. The actuall Echelon system itself was allegedly set up in 1971.
---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
--
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
All right - a whole new round!
by
Zarquil
·
· Score: 2
Time to pull out the old.sigs again. You'd have thought I'd have had my net access revoked the first time.
Zarquil
Let's go out and get BOMBED and CRASH in the BUSH beside the WHITE HOUSE.
Does that translate well to French, German, and Spanish?
Re:Echolon is our front line.
by
alen
·
· Score: 2
Our economies are linked more than you know. Examples are Daimler Benz-Chrysler, GM owns Opel, Swiss Credit Suisse owns First Boston, Sony, a few drug companies, the auto companies from US Europe and Japan all owning each other's stock. Local economies are dying out and an integrated world economy is emerging. Corporate espionage supported by government will soon be a thing of the past. Otherwise giving info to one Fortune 500 company will hurt another.
Re:no mention of Echelon re: NSA undersea fiber ta
by
hillct
·
· Score: 2
Aparently Echelon ranks up there with CPRM-like systems for SCSI and DVD-RAM drives. People just don't want to talk about it until it's dumped in their lap.
Vary strange. I wonder what characteristics a (critical) issue has to have in order to be so frequently ignored...
Re:Echolon is our front line.
by
corvi42
·
· Score: 2
I wonder - did you even read the report?
You say: [...] but really it is just a branch of the modern military, and a legitimate form of defense.
The report says: ( section 13.2 ) What is important is that its purpose is to intercept private and commercial communications, and not military communications.
You say: At the end of the day, Echelon is controlled by our democratic governments, and the information it reveals is used responsibly.
The report says: ( also section 13.2 ) As the protection of EU citizens depends on the legal situations in the individual Member States, which vary widely, and since in some cases parliamentary control bodies do not even exist, the degree of protection can hardly be said to be adequate.
I also wonder whether you have a brain in your head.
You say: It provided much defense against the nazi threat in WWII.
Yes, and if the Romans hadn't beat off the Carthaginians, we'd all be speaking Carthaginian-derived languages today. And if the Anglo-Saxons, of which you are so proud ( and yes I am one too ), hadn't killed the Britons and stolen their lands, we'd all be speaking some variation of Welsh. And if the Anglo-Saxons hadn't had their butts kicked by William the Conqueror, we'd all be speaking something much more like Dutch. And if the Austrians hadn't beaten off the Turks, we'd all be speaking Turkish.
My point is: beating down an invader or an oppressor in the past hardly gives you moral justification for being an invader and an oppressor today. Just because Echelon-like systems were used to defeat the Nazis and provide valuable information on the Soviets doesn't mean that its OK to be using it to spy on private people and businesses today.
You say: [...] our democratic Anglo Saxon realms [...] we should be strong, proud and altruistic [...] in its defense of the Anglo Saxon worldview [...]
Whoa, hold on there bucko!
Take off the white hood and put down the burning cross. Maybe its just me, but you sure do make yourself sound awfully racist talking like this.
Sure, the Echelon nations were settled/conquered/plundered largely by people of the British Iles, and they compose the dominant populations. But don't forget that within the UK, USA, Australia, NZ, Canada, there are many many non Anglo-Saxon people who are perfectly good citizens and share the same "values" you speak of. If you try to exclude them from being worthy of the same rights as others, you automatically invalidate your claims to any kind of democratic righteousnous. Also there are many Anglo-Saxons among us ( myself included ) who feel that this kind of espionage and surveillance of people and businesses, whatever their nationality is wrong and immoral. Evidently this "strong, proud and altruistic" nature you seem so misty-eyed about is not a genetic trait of Anglo-Saxon stock.
You seem very certain that the activities of the Intelligence agencies are scrutinized very thoroughly by the democratic bodies governing those nations. I think you need something of an education in the realities of the intelligence world. The truth is that most intelligence agencies operate with very little accountability to the public or to democratically elected officials. They operate this way by design as well as by convention.
As for the case of the UK, they are a member in some respects of the European Union and European community, and are moving towards more integration with Europe - and not with the "Anglo Saxon realms". As members of the European Union they would be in violation of treaties and human rights conventions to conduct or allow surveillance of European citizens. All this is outline in the report under discussion here - if you had bothered to read it.
In conclusion I've got to say that anyone who values democracy as you seem to should not subscribe to the hypocrisy of accepting any "undemocratic knife" to be used against anybody anywhere! This is contrary to the whole spirit and beliefs of this "Anglo Saxon worldview" and form the basis and constitution of all these "Anglo Saxon realms". To quote from one of the most eloquent "Anglo-Saxons" on this subject:
"He who sacrifices freedom for security will neither have nor deserve either"
-- Thomas Jefferson ( also Ben. Franklin said something very similar )
--
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
before you say that der Echelon fought against fascism, you should see the deffinition, and realize that at best it just switched it with a more 20th centurary fascist:
fascism (fshzm)
n.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
-- --rock me like a huricane? NO rock you
Re:Echolon is our front line.
by
number+one+duck
·
· Score: 5
Yes, it would be a shame for Airstrip One to fall before the hoards of Eastasia. May we and our Eurasian allies stand tall in the face of this threat!
I have to add, that one of the "Echelon" spy bases is in the town where I go to school, in Bad Aibling / Bavaria / Germany (www.badaibling.de). In my classroom, I have a good look at the giant aerials which look like giant golf balls...
Did you know that Echelon had a year 2000 bug ? The CIA was blind for 3 days, there could have started the 3rd world war and you wouldn't have noticed it... [in fact the USA wouldn't notice the doom of Europe either, there would only be a little notice in USA Today at the 3rd page]
Slashdot Mirror
Echelon is wrong for these reasons:
1) We are told we have a set of freedoms and that we are so much more democratic than the non-'Anglo Saxons' as you put it, and that these freedoms are worth defending. I do not see how spying on the citizens of the world, while claiming that we have the right to privacy advances the cause of freedom. It happens to advance the cause of the states involved but not the nations involved. There is a distinction between believe in freedom and one's flag.
2) Simply because it is run by democracies, does not make it democraticly controlled. Ollie? Any thoughts? Have you been asked by your local political representative whether or not you actually support such a system? No, we were not told of it until this Englishman raised the alarm. Only when the cat was out of the bag did it become a political issue. It is an organization that does not face normal checks and balances like most government operations. Sure, a director has to have a somewhat uncomfortable yearly meeting with some other director but for an operation of this nature, public scrutiny dearly needed.
3) Our present government may be good overall, but future goverments may not. Will I be held accountable for this post in 30 years? (Here I am opposing my government's policy.) I honestly don't know.
Hitler was elected. Giving future governments insights into my private thoughts via my private faxes, emails, etc. is not such a wonderful idea. Even today one cannot predict the next fixations of our governments: today drugs and cracking, yesterday booze, tomorrow protesting the WTO? Pr0n? All these wars have casualties in ruined lives, for better or worse.
Civil Rights and specifically Privacy is an ideal that people hold to for a reason. This program makes it clear to citizens that our Privacy is not as important to our governments as we were told. One has to then ask: what's next on their list?
Is it just me, or does anyone think that all these reports on Echelon are just smokescreens for what they're *really* doing? After all, it's exponentially easier to compromise the datacenter (get a mole hired there, Van Eck phreaking, drill through the floor & set up a tap) where the fiber cable ends than it is to send a submarine to do a (risky) cable splice.
But the spying was IN SUPPORT of the sanctions, and the enforcement of the sanctions.
Jeezus fucking christ! It's not like the US was stealing secrets on techniques of developing and building newer and better weapons of mass destruction! Iraq is like 60 years behind the US in that technology, and if they weren't cheating on their sanctions, our spying would not have yeilded any results anyway? It was certainly not "spying" in the conventional sense of the word. And even if we weren't spying, they would have found some other excuse to chase out the inspectors - The Iraqi Parliment has declared the UN null and void for crying out loud? The world is LUCKY that the US did that spying, because when the inspectors DID get kicked out, we knew exactly where to hit them. If the inspection process won't stop them, force is your only fallback measure - so the spying was necessary to deal with an intransigent opponent. Oh no, we stole the top secret plans for Saddam Hussein's giant vibrating golden dildo he uses to pleasure his harem! HA HA! Nobody can stop the US now!
Iraq is looking for any excuse they can to justify building weapons so that they can attack Kuwait, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, and it's own citizens. Unless you want to pay $50/gal for gas, and watch millions more die, they simply must be stopped at all costs.
Frankly, I don't see why that regime simply isn't removed from power. All this pussy-footing around with legal sanctions and decrees has been given a chance to work, and guess what? every day since the last day of the Gulf War, it has been proven NOT to work. All it does is prolong the suffering of the Iraqi people under the dictator Saddam.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Scuds were designed and built in Russia. Not a domestic product of Iraq - though they were later given plans and learned to copy them. The home-built variety of Iraqi Scuds had a much higher failure rate, and tended to break up on reentry.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
- Higher Cannabinoid yields are better for the user. THC
is a medically safe compound with no longterm effects. That is why we have Marinol, because THC is safe. Smoking it, on the other hand, isn't so good for you. So a higher potency means less smoke for the same lvl of high. You seem to cast it in a bad light, it isn't in any logical sense.
- The potency of THC in a Cannabis plant varries on several conditions. Freshness, plant genes, growth practices all effect how much THC are in the plant. This was just as true in the 60's as it is now. High yielding plants were available in the 60's just as now. 30 years of breeding cannot alter a plant that much. Low THC yield plants still abound.
- If you spent the time to write your reply, consider spending that time reading up on the subject you are replying to. Reference links,
such as one on the actual potency of Cannabis,
would go a long way in helping your argument out.
---crulx
can be found here.
--
"In the land of the brave and the free, we defend our freedom with the GNU GPL."
"You're gonna need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody
http://www.ntk.net/
Not sure how we managed to report this one before Slashdot, but the European Parliament report on Echelon is (leaking) out all over the place, with the following recommendations included: that the Member States "develop and manufacture encryption technology and software and above all to support projects aimed at developing user-friendly open-source encryption software", and "public administrations of the member states are called upon systematically to encrypt e-mails so that ultimately encryption becomes the norm".
Looking forward to running the diffs on the final, published report.
--
rant
Just because Americans feel just relaxed and comfortable about spying on the rest of the world (including its UKUSA partners - I believe it was Ronald Walker who revealed that the US was spying on the Australian government) doesn't mean the rest of the world has to like it, and if it involves bases on non-US territory, doesn't have to put up with it.
Go you big red fire engine!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Quit writing all this stuff. Someone has to find all of it and change it every time we switch allies. Be considerate of your neighbors who work in the Ministry of Truth! Thanks. This has been a public service "suggestion" from the Large Male Sibling.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Thank you for pointing that out. As a Visigoth, I felt a bit slighted by being omitted from the protection of Echelon. Can't be too careful with all these Romans milling about.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
#!/usr/bin/perl
my @Words = ("bomb", "attack", "assassinate", "coup", "terrorist");
while ( 1 )
{
print "$Words[rand($$^time)%$#Words+1]\n";
sleep(60);
}
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
you have a point, but your usage of the term "anglo saxon" is pretty offensive. this country is made up of a variety of ethinc lineages, and anglo saxon by no means has even a plurality, let alone a majority.
also, echelon doesn't have anything to do with WWII, the Nazis, or preventing the plunging of Europe into a pit of darkness. the UKUSA alliance dates back to 1947; echelon to 1971. check it out:
The Echelon FAQ from Echelonwatch
Just raise the taxes on crack.
First of all, NEVER let a search proceed without a warrant. Even if you are doing something illegal. (Heck, ESPECIALLYif you are....) The reason is this: In the event they do find something incriminating you can contest the grounds by which they got a warrant in the first place.
Also, the police were never precise about what they were looking for. Or how they knew how to look. And no, proving them wrong would not make them look like idiots, it would reaffirm for them the belief that SS tactics will work in America.
First of all, NEVER let a search proceed without a warrant. Even if you are doing something illegal. (Heck, ESPECIALLYif you are....) The reason is this: In the event they do find something incriminating you can contest the grounds by which they got a warrant in the first place.
This is why we shouldn't let 12 year olds post to these forums. This is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. Perhaps we should let the government wire your house with video cameras. Heck, I'd rather know that they were watching you 24 hours a day so that you couldn't build fertilizer bombs in your garage. Perhaps after Littleton, every parent should wire their kid's rooms so that we know their not hoarding weapons.
I could have also saved myself alot of trouble by not having walls, would you reccommend that too??
Have you ever heard the saying "Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither"?? Get it through your sloping forehead, liberty is something you defend, not something you are given.
I for one do not believe that this government expects us to believe that a system like Echelon will not be used against the citizens of this country. If most people understood what the modern govt. already does to "identify" possible lawbreakers, they would be shocked.
The U.S. Government is known to publish at least 30% of the hate magazines published in this country. There are automated reviews of your utility bills that seek certain patterns. Random IR thermal imaging is employed by almost every city with a population over 250,000. I could keep going on.
These techniques are used to identify people for the local police to investigate. They are illegal, and any evidence cannot be used in court, but they do lead the police to people and then it just gets worse.
I found out about this 6 years ago. I stared growing hydroponic veggies and bonsai etc.... I purchased some nice Hydro equipment from a catalog store, including a big MH light etc... I was initially harassed approximately 5 months after purchasing the equipment. 2 police showed up at my house and said that due to a high volume of people coming and going from my house (my mother was my only visitor all day) they had "probable cause" to search, and I should just let them in. When I refused, they started threatening, etc.
They could never get a warrant, because they could not justify it. So instead, they went through my trash, tapped my phones, put my house under surveilance, followed me to work and stooping me and giving me tickets and they trying to search my car.
To make a long story short, I sued for harrasment, and it was revealed that they got my name and address from the hydro store, (govt. run) and then watched my house for the light to start, and then waited 5 months so they could catch me "at harvest". The only problem is I was growing Roma tomatoes and a lime tree.
"Mother should I trust the Government???"
~Hammy
You may be upset that the system makes mistakes, or that the system can be abused... that makes me upset, and rightfully so. But not having one in place at all would be ridiculous as well. And irresponsible. It is not an easy answer, never will be, but that is the nature of the world we live in.
Well and thoughtfully said, sir. Without any rancor or sarcasm, I humbly bow my head in defeat. You are right. Such a system is necessary, and the world would be a more dangerous place without it. The primary (and some say only legitimate) reason for a government to exist is to protect it's citizens from physical harm. SIGINT is an obviously necessary part of that. We must simply strive to make sure it is only used for the protection of life and liberty, not for petty economic espionage as the EU member states are claiming.
- Rev.In an interview he [Mike Frost, former Candian secret service officer]gave for an Australian TV channel, he said by way of example that the CSE actually had entered the name and telephone number of a woman in a database of possible terrorists because she had used an ambiguous phrase in a harmless telephone conversation with a friend. When searching through intercepted communications, the computer had found the keyword and reproduced the conversation. The analyst was unsure and therefore recorded her personal details.
And to think I thought that the .sig fodder was silly! Doesn't look that way. And just to help Eris out, I shall henceforth be sprinkling my telephone conversations with random outbursts of "nu-coo-luhr terrorism", "anthrax", and "Backstreet Boys."
He [Wayne Madsen, former NSA employee] argues that the NSA had to concede that it held more than 1000 pages of information on Princess Diana, because her conduct ran counter to US policy, owing to her campaign against land mines
That is FUCKING INSANE. Because she held views counter to that of the Pentagon she's now a target for surveillance? CHRIST! I think marijuana and LSD should be legal, and have given money to several organizations who believe similarly. I guess that means the FBI, et al, have a ph1l3 on me because I question the governing orthodoxy.
FUCK YOU GUYS. And don't gimme any shit about "national security" because I will just throw up on your shoes. Oh yeah, we live in a free country. As long as you don't mind the fact that the government regularly compiles information on people that they don't like, even if they are peace loving activists like the goddamn Princess of Wales.
Where's Noam Chomsky when you need him?
As early as 1988, the Max Plank Institute estimated that the damage caused by industrial espionage in Germany amounted to at least DM 8 billion. The chairman of the association of security consultants in Germany quotes a figure of DM 15 bn a year, based on expert evidence. The President of the European police trade unions, Hermann Lutz, puts the damage at DM 20 bn a year. According to the FBI, US industry suffered losses of US$ 1.7 bn as a result of competitive intelligence and industrial espionage in the years 1992/1993. The former chairman of the Secret Service monitoring committee of the House of Representatives in the USA has spoken of losses of US $ 100 bn sustained through lost contracts and additional research and development costs. It is claimed that between 1990 and 1996 this resulted in the loss of 6 million jobs.
Encrypt people, encrypt! And roll out IPv6, cuz it's got packet level encryption. It'll help bunches.
- Rev.I find it sad that I have to rely on Europeans to be on the lookout for my privacy.
The (US based) apologists always point out that if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't worry. And that from a realpolitik point of view, the US/UK should be doing whatever's needed to gather intelligence on potential threats.
Since the EU doesn't really benefit from these arguments, I suspect that they decided to raise a stink untill the US/UK give some concessions to quiet them down. They probably want to share in any relevant intelligence that's relevant to their governments. They'll never really know if they're getting a complete account, but they'll be provided various intelligence tidbits that will placate them. Then this whole matter will be quietly dropped.
Until such time, the report will say
1) Zut alors! @e're being monitored!
2) Mon Dieu! If we are to get privacy, we must encrypt our messages!
3) Stop monitoring us or we'll get really upset and pout. We'll stamp our feet and make some noice.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
The EU Report on the Echelon System = "Oh, oh! Must encrypt ethernet, oe else..."
;)
(Well it's only one letter out
The /. community tends to see technologies they like (napster) in the best possible light (but it can be used legitimately!!!!) and therefore justified. At the same time viewing any technology used by any government agency to do anything useful as the Tools Of Oppression, therefore a precursor to the End Of The World.
The truth of the matter is that there are precious few examples of echelon privacy violations I've seen, at least on slashdot ... the french airplane thing, for example. Here's the /. version slowly transmogrified into what I gleaned from cnn articles.
The NSA is stealing industrial secrets from the french and giving them to american companies!! Because of that an american company beat a french company for a large contract to the saudi government!
Oh, wait, the NSA was stealing industrial secrets and giving them to the U.S state department!
Oh, wait, the NSA only told the state department that the french company was offering bribes to saudi government officials. Then the state department told other saudi government officials!
Oh, and the NSA only did that because Congress (remember, the people we elect) passed a Real Actual Law mandating that the NSA report corruption information to the state department when it could potentially harm a U.S. business.
Yeah, the NSA's obviously evil and amok. I'm sure all the boeing employees who kept their jobs hate the fact that NSA monitors communications in foreign countries.
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
Not Echelon -- a satellite control system, if memory serves. NRO likes to be constantly receiving and processing data from those eyes in the sky... probably a bit too much emphasis on them compared to HUMINT.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
So that is what this SIGINT system signal really means!
--
NO TOUCH MONKEY!
Echelon isn't very powerful. That's what the government uses now that the illuminati granted them the ability to view it. Right now, though, the illuminati uses "Daedalus" which analyzes all data that travels through every type of wire known to man.
You think the wires in your house (even the electricity) go straight to plants without being tapped? The illuminati have your house completely tapped through every wire you own. The only escape is to be a hermit out in the middle of no-where. (see sig)
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
Iraq's problems are entirely of their own doing. Anytime they wish to allow UN weapon inspectors, the sanctions are gone
:-)
Unfortunately, the world is not as black and white as that. I do not dispute that the inspectors felt thwarted, and that they were being constantly mislead, but Iraq was fully justified in doing this because the USA was illegally using the inspections to spy on Iraq.
The premise was that Iraq would open itself to impartial inspections, and was guarenteed said inspections would not be used for US spying. In a sense, the US broke the arrangement first.
Now with that in mind, consider that Iraq did, for over a decade, allow the inspectors almost complete access to anything they wanted to see. Perhaps Iraq was obstinate over requests to see things that (in its view) had little to do with weapons and a lot to do with internal affairs (ie "while we're here, Saddam, mind if we do a little spying?").
So for ten years, Iraq suffered under sunctions while waiting for the inspectors to finish their inspection. Ten years and there was no sign the end of sanctions was even close. "We've been had!" Iraq concludes "They ain't ever going to say they're satisfied - they're going to keep sanctions in place until Saddam is gone. The dirty lying bastards!".
Can't say I blame them actually.
To claim that Iraq's problems are entirely of their own doing is verging on ridiculous IMHO. The USA has done a whole lot behind the scenes, and it sounds like you're overlooking quite a bit of it. Of course, it's not like US media puts much effort into covering that sort of thing
So we can come to the conclusion that we only need to be a little paranoid when it comes to the US government?
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I'm sorry, Lover's Arrival, but I must disagree.
Echelon is an infomration-gathering system. The theory behind its operation is that it picks up key words in open communications. It cannot pick out encrypted words. By "encrypted" in this sense, I mean messages within messages, such as one phrase meaning something completely different than what it sounds. (For example: "Climb Mount Niitaki," I think, was the phrase used to initiate the Imperial Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. This phrase would ot have been picked up, if Echelon was operating during WWII, which it was not, since there are no "key" words for Echelon to latch onto, such as "bomb," "attack," "aircraft carrier," and the like.) Some people have claimed that Echelon has been expanded to enable it to monitor Internet traffic.
Furthermore, military traffic of a sensitive nature is sent encrypted over non-civilian channels. Echelon's entire purpose is the monitoring of civilian channels. This is of importance when combatting an insurrection or rebellion, when the participants will most likely need to rely on the existing civilian information infrastructure. However, when facing a full-fledged military force (or an insurrection force equipped by a foreign power with military-grade equipment) Echelon will fail because the targets of surveillance will no longer be using civilian channels.
This lends credence to the assertations of a report to the European Parliament in 1988 that Echelon "ECHELON is designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organisations and businesses in virtually every country." (Reference) (In fact, go here to learn about the ACLU's take on Echelon.)
Echelon is intended for domestic monitoring. The only possible use such a thing could have is to monitor a nation's citizens for insurrection and seditious activities. The legal and moral grounds for a government to monitor it's citizens and persecute them for these crimes depends upon whom you ask.
Just as a point of fact:
It did not. Echelon's groundwork was laid in 1947 as part of the UKUSA agreement, in which the United States and the United Kingdom (and by extension the British Commonwealth) would coordinate intelligence activities and share information. The actuall Echelon system itself was allegedly set up in 1971.
---
Chief Technician, Helpdesk at the End of the World
"I am an Adept of Tantric VAX."
Zarquil
Let's go out and get BOMBED and CRASH in the BUSH beside the WHITE HOUSE.
Does that translate well to French, German, and Spanish?
Our economies are linked more than you know. Examples are Daimler Benz-Chrysler, GM owns Opel, Swiss Credit Suisse owns First Boston, Sony, a few drug companies, the auto companies from US Europe and Japan all owning each other's stock. Local economies are dying out and an integrated world economy is emerging. Corporate espionage supported by government will soon be a thing of the past. Otherwise giving info to one Fortune 500 company will hurt another.
Aparently Echelon ranks up there with CPRM-like systems for SCSI and DVD-RAM drives. People just don't want to talk about it until it's dumped in their lap.
Vary strange. I wonder what characteristics a (critical) issue has to have in order to be so frequently ignored...
--CTH
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
You say:
[...] but really it is just a branch of the modern military, and a legitimate form of defense.
The report says: ( section 13.2 )
What is important is that its purpose is to intercept private and commercial communications, and not military communications.
You say:
At the end of the day, Echelon is controlled by our democratic governments, and the information it reveals is used responsibly.
The report says: ( also section 13.2 )
As the protection of EU citizens depends on the legal situations in the individual Member States, which vary widely, and since in some cases parliamentary control bodies do not even exist, the degree of protection can hardly be said to be adequate.
I also wonder whether you have a brain in your head.
You say:
It provided much defense against the nazi threat in WWII.
Yes, and if the Romans hadn't beat off the Carthaginians, we'd all be speaking Carthaginian-derived languages today. And if the Anglo-Saxons, of which you are so proud ( and yes I am one too ), hadn't killed the Britons and stolen their lands, we'd all be speaking some variation of Welsh. And if the Anglo-Saxons hadn't had their butts kicked by William the Conqueror, we'd all be speaking something much more like Dutch. And if the Austrians hadn't beaten off the Turks, we'd all be speaking Turkish.
My point is: beating down an invader or an oppressor in the past hardly gives you moral justification for being an invader and an oppressor today. Just because Echelon-like systems were used to defeat the Nazis and provide valuable information on the Soviets doesn't mean that its OK to be using it to spy on private people and businesses today.
You say:
[...] our democratic Anglo Saxon realms [...] we should be strong, proud and altruistic [...] in its defense of the Anglo Saxon worldview [...]
Whoa, hold on there bucko!
Take off the white hood and put down the burning cross. Maybe its just me, but you sure do make yourself sound awfully racist talking like this.
Sure, the Echelon nations were settled/conquered/plundered largely by people of the British Iles, and they compose the dominant populations. But don't forget that within the UK, USA, Australia, NZ, Canada, there are many many non Anglo-Saxon people who are perfectly good citizens and share the same "values" you speak of. If you try to exclude them from being worthy of the same rights as others, you automatically invalidate your claims to any kind of democratic righteousnous. Also there are many Anglo-Saxons among us ( myself included ) who feel that this kind of espionage and surveillance of people and businesses, whatever their nationality is wrong and immoral. Evidently this "strong, proud and altruistic" nature you seem so misty-eyed about is not a genetic trait of Anglo-Saxon stock.
You seem very certain that the activities of the Intelligence agencies are scrutinized very thoroughly by the democratic bodies governing those nations. I think you need something of an education in the realities of the intelligence world. The truth is that most intelligence agencies operate with very little accountability to the public or to democratically elected officials. They operate this way by design as well as by convention.
As for the case of the UK, they are a member in some respects of the European Union and European community, and are moving towards more integration with Europe - and not with the "Anglo Saxon realms". As members of the European Union they would be in violation of treaties and human rights conventions to conduct or allow surveillance of European citizens. All this is outline in the report under discussion here - if you had bothered to read it.
In conclusion I've got to say that anyone who values democracy as you seem to should not subscribe to the hypocrisy of accepting any "undemocratic knife" to be used against anybody anywhere! This is contrary to the whole spirit and beliefs of this "Anglo Saxon worldview" and form the basis and constitution of all these "Anglo Saxon realms". To quote from one of the most eloquent "Anglo-Saxons" on this subject:
"He who sacrifices freedom for security will neither have nor deserve either"
-- Thomas Jefferson ( also Ben. Franklin said something very similar )
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
before you say that der Echelon fought against fascism, you should see the deffinition, and realize that at best it just switched it with a more 20th centurary fascist: fascism (fshzm) n. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
--rock me like a huricane? NO rock you
Yes, it would be a shame for Airstrip One to fall before the hoards of Eastasia. May we and our Eurasian allies stand tall in the face of this threat!
I have to add, that one of the "Echelon" spy bases is in the town where I go to school, in Bad Aibling / Bavaria / Germany (www.badaibling.de). In my classroom, I have a good look at the giant aerials which look like giant golf balls...
Did you know that Echelon had a year 2000 bug ? The CIA was blind for 3 days, there could have started the 3rd world war and you wouldn't have noticed it... [in fact the USA wouldn't notice the doom of Europe either, there would only be a little notice in USA Today at the 3rd page]
CU,
kx