Buxley's GPS Geocache Maps Offline, Now Back

Jess writes: "Ed Hall, known for his cool maps that pinpoint GPS treasure hunt locations was recently threatened with legal action from Geocaching.com. Geocaching.com told Ed that he must comply with their "requests to put copyright notices on all geocaching data". Ed had to bring his site down for one week while he sought legal advice to determine if gps locations can be copyrighted. His lawyers told him everything is legitimate and his maps are back up! I don't think this fight is over yet but it will be interesting to see if gps location information can be copyrighted." This redoubles my current ambition to find an inexpensive, decent GPS receiver. Then I can copyright everywhere I go and charge royalties for visiting.

Comments

Interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think a parallel can be drawn as such:

I can't copyright the words I use to create a document, but the document itself is copyrightable.

While GPS positions can not be copyrighted, I suspect that a file containing specific GPS data arranged in a meaningful way can be.

So, if I write down specific directions on how to find a location, it doesn't matter whether or not it's in English, Deutsch, hexed ASCII, or any other notation -- those specific directions are copyrighted. You can't copy it without my permission (at least, not within the jurisdiction of the United States).

However, if you read it, take notes, and jot down your own interpretation, I can't do a damn thing about what you do with it.

Now, lets pretend I spend n million dollars surveying a location, so that I can sell the survey information to people who want to do something with it (drill for oil, lay cables, whatever). All the information I gather from my survey will be considered private intellectual property.

If you read it and jot down a summary to distribute to your friends without my permission, I can sue your pants off for infringing on my property rights.

On the other hand, if you and a bunch of your friends wander around my surveyed area and collected your own data after hearing I did a survey, I am again unable to do anything to stop you from distributing it.

The legal issues here are not about land ownership or the exclusive rights to a location denoted by a set of numbers -- it's about the set of numbers, and how they were obtained. If it can be shown that our friend obtained the data inquestion from the company without permission, and that the data was obtained by the company at a substantial cost and is directly used to it's business, then our friend may end up in trouble.

Otherwise, I suspect it's just another case of the big guy trying to put the squeeze on the little guy who can't afford to be squeezed.

Re:Interesting.

[farqhuarson]

well almost but not quite. what you are referring to is a "sweat of the brow" doctrine that they used to use to try and attempt to protect compilations of data. It was shot down by the Supreme Court and "effort" alone is not enough to copyright. It was in response to the Rurual Telephone Co. vs. Feist Publications.

Reason for the copyright

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the reasons behind geocaching.com trying to assert some control over the data are mostly harmless. Basically, sometimes landowners want to have references to a cache deleted when it becomes a problem with too many people hiking in and the problems that result from overuse of a natural area.

If geocaching.com lets anyone slurp up their data, who insures that whoever slurps it doesn't keep the cache deletions current? Sure, if you post data on geocaching.com you can post it anywhere else too, but it isn't geocaching.com's fault that the data wasn't "contained" in that case.

I think they're trying to protect themselves by being able to say "If you contact us about a problem cache, we will remove it." and not having to worry about contacting many websites about the change. I think it is perfectly reasonable, and in the long run will probably help protect our natural environment.

Perhaps "copyright" per se isn't the right way to go about it, but I can appreciate geocaching.com's dilemma.

Re:Reason for the copyright

[Speare]

Who keeps the cache deletions current?

I have always thought that a public "geocache record" should have more than just the coordinates, but also a freshness date and an two keys which authorizes people to adjust the record.

coordinates of cache are public

freshness date of cache are public

cache creator has a hidden control key code

cache itself has a freshness key code inside

Each visitor to the cache can find contained within a "freshness key code." They can visit the website and use that code to "freshen" the record. Caches can then be auto-retracted from the website (not deleted) if it gets to be too unfresh. Fresher or semi-fresh caches may also appeal to other visitors according to their tastes, so they can query the database to find better caches.

The creator of the cache can retract the cache entirely by using the access code.

Retracting a cache doesn't stop someone from using ancient records. The traffic would fade out, however, if the records clearly show that they were only current as of 2001. Only the hardcore seekers would go for obviously stale caches, because the chances are, the owner took the stale cache bucket away from the site.

The rest is culture: if the websites impress upon people that it's not kosher to tramp off to find a cache that's more than a year stale, such trespassing or fruitless trips would be much more rare.

Re:Reason for the copyright

[RollingThunder]

Actually, because of the specific deep linking that some folks say may be the problem, geocaching.com -can- easily remove the problem site themselves, and the data will just be gone.

The dirt

[Anonymous Coward]

From: "Ed Hall" edhall@brillig.com
To: list@geocaching.com
Subject: [GEO] Buxley's Geocaching Maps (status)

Everyone-

First of all, let me apologize for the length of this message. I've gotten
so many "what's going on with the maps?" emails, that I figured this was the
easiest way to bring everyone up to date with regards to the status. If you
can manage to slog through the following emails, you will know as much as I
do about the situation between Mr. Irish and myself.

I've included all the email back and forth between Mr. Irish and myself
since this all began last Thursday morning. These are the complete and
unedited emails, the only thing I've done is to place the emails in
chronological order for ease in reading. I've placed my comments [[[inside
square brackets]]] when needed.

Sorry again for the length.

-Ed (Buxley)

- - - - -

From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: Remove Lost Caches link.
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:33:39 -0700

Ed,

Please remove the lost caches page from your web site.

In addition, I need to have you provide an addtional copyright message on
your maps and web pages as follows -

"Geocaching Data Copyright 2001 Grounded, Inc."

Thanks,

Jeremy

- - - - -
[[[I didn't respond to this email for reasons I'll make clear below. The
next morning the very cool "Project A.P.E." promotion with 20th Century Fox
appeared on Mr. Irish's web page. Fortunately for me, it was placed only
about 40 miles from where I live. I juggled my schedule at work and headed
out mid-day with a friend of mine. I've written up a description of the hunt
on the geocaching discussion boards at
http://forums.groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/0 00 012.html. In short, we had
a blast finding the cache and another cacher that I had known previously
only from emails and logs was there too.

When I got home from the following email was waiting for me:]]]

- - - - -

From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: Project APE
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:56:01 -0700

Hopefully you didn't have an unfair advantage for finding this cache?

Whatever the case, how did it look? I'm sort of in the dark regarding
contents, etc.

And did you get my email re: the lost caches page and copyright info?

Jeremy

- - - - -

[[[I don't know about you, but I really take umbrage at being called a
cheater -- I don't know any other way to interpret the first paragraph other
than as an accusation of cheating on my part. I wasn't expecting a note of
congratulations or anything, although that would have been a nice gesture,
but really! I've found a bunch of caches in the past, I own a GPS, and the
cache was 40 miles from my house; that's the sum total of my "unfair
advantage". I think the two people with me (one of whom I'd never met
before) when I found the cache would vouch for this.

This was my reply to Mr. Irish. I regret I might have been a bit less civil
than I should have been, but I did do him the courtesy of answer all his
questions.]]]

- - - - -

From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 5:54 PM
To: Jeremy
Subject: RE: Project APE

> Hopefully you didn't have an unfair advantage for finding this cache?

Gee, thanks for the congratulatory message. =P No, I didn't cheat.

> Whatever the case, how did it look? I'm sort of in the dark regarding
> contents, etc.

A very large ammo box, about 6 inches, by 18 inches, by 3 feet long. The
contents were a welcome sheet, a prop from the movie (a very cool looking
spoon), a certificate of authentication, and a camera. Another cacher (Ron
Streeter) got there before Julie and I did, but was searching about 50 feet
away when we found it.

So who did you get to plant the cache? It was a nice spot.

> And did you get my email re: the lost caches page and copyright info?

Yes I did, but without any explanation of why you want me to make changes to
my web page, I really didn't know how to respond. Feedback on both the "Lost
Caches" and "Statistics" page has been very positive--people seem to enjoy
them both.

It seems that by working together we can do better for the sport and the
players than by working at cross-purposes. Don't you agree?

-Ed

- - - - -

[[[And Mr. Irish's response below. I'm not sure what he means by "You do
glean information about new caches before anyone else would." since I get my
information from his web pages just like everyone else does. I have NO
special access to his web site or data files.]]]

- - - - -

From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Project APE
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:29:24 -0700

Hey, it was a valid question. You do glean information about new caches
before anyone else would. Folks would ask the same question of me if I were
to be the first person to discover a cache planted. I have decided to remove
myself from the cache searches to remain impartial and to keep it fair (I
would be fair, but appearances are everything). As a person who is providing
a service to the game sometimes it's best to at least look impartial. I'm
basically obligated to ask.

By the way, the spoon was designed by Tim Burton, so it's definitely a
collectable (you certainly know that, so I'm stating the obvious).
Congratulations for being the first! Hopefully the cache won't be too cool
that someone may want to take it. I'd hate for that to happen, but it may be
inevitable. Fox did get permission to plant it as well as the other caches,
which is a boon for the sport.

Re: lost caches -

I want to make sure you understand I'm not just being a bad guy about this.
As I explained before, the caches have been archived for many different
reasons, and folks in the past understood that the coordinates would be
stricken from the site. Providing easy access to them may encourage people
to traffic in these locations which is the reason (in many cases) why the
caches were removed in the first place.

Unfortunately I don't have time to explain myself for these requests
(especially re: the lost caches, which I explained before), so it may come
off harsh. For that I apologize. However, I do have the copyright on the
cache collection (one of the only things that I have as part of the work I
do for the site), and am allowing your site to use the information from mine
in order to generate the maps. I do think it's a great service but I also
need you to comply with promises I make to the folks on the geocaching.com
web site.

Thanks. I'd love to see a picture of the spoon if you have a digital camera.

Jeremy

- - - - -

[[[Sometime around this point, Mr. Irish removed the link to my map page
from his web site. I have no problems with this, it's his web page and, of
course, he can link to anyone he likes.

Also somewhere about this time, my access to geocaching.com started going
away in a very interesting way. At first I thought it was just a bug on Mr.
Irish's server (things like all cache names showing up as "Geocache") but
then additional changes started popping up that required deliberate changes
to code started to occur: Things like the cache's state or country info
being displayed as "Planet: Earth" and the cache owner's name being listed
on every cache as "Human". The latitude and longitude of caches was
randomized and the cache logs were just gone. This last part was
particularly frustrating when I got an automated notice that my 'E' Is For
Expedition cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp? ID=2577)
had been logged for the first time, but I had no way of knowing if the
person logging it (whoever they were) had found it or not. Thanks to
everyone who emailed me my own cache page on Saturday, it is appreciated!

Another change (that I didn't find out about until later) affected
everybody. All access to all lost cache and their logs was removed. The only
thing left on those pages was a "This cache is gone" notice. Owners couldn't
even read past log entries on their own caches.

Well, these changes had to be deliberate since they did require special code
so I asked Mr. Irish about them below: (And no, I never did manage to get
him that picture of the spoon)]]]

- - - - -

From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 10:40 AM
To: Jeremy Irish
Subject: Scrambled geocache pages?

Jeremy-

You might want to check your web page's code--the geocache pages I'm seeing
are missing/have wrong data. Also, the Mapblast maps show the wrong
location.

BTW, I have a TV interview on Monday--they want to go out geocache hunting
with me. I hope this problem can be resolved by then, otherwise I don't know
what we're going to look for or talk about...

Regards,

-Ed

- - - - -

From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:58:16 -0700

Cool! Who's interviewing you?

I'll look into the coordinate issues. When do you think you can remove the
lost caches link and add the copyright info?

We should talk about a better way for you to get the data too. Perhaps an
XML file of the waypoints or something similar you can access. I'm working
on a format for another project. Mind parsing XML?

Jeremy

- - - - -

[[[One thing about the above note that I found very interesting is that Mr.
Irish is planning on publishing all caches and their coordinates in XML
format. I sincerely hope this information is made available to
everyone--Lots of cool utilities could be written that would make geocaching
easier for all. And yes, I realize his mentioning of XML for the first time
in months was merely a "carrot" intended to get me to make the changes he
had requested. But it's a start.

Here's my response below. I wrote it in the sincere belief that Mr. Irish
and I could reach some sort of compromise on the two (unrelated in my mind)
requests he had originally made.]]]

- - - - -

From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:22 AM
To: Jeremy Irish
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?

> Cool! Who's interviewing you?

Yes it is cool, I'm looking forward to it. Free publicity on a cable channel
seen across the US. Details to follow once we clear up our other issues.

> I'll look into the coordinate issues. When do you think you can remove the
> lost caches link and add the copyright info?

I think we should start talking about the two issues; I'm sure we can work
out a compromise that's acceptable to us both. You need to get the credit
you deserve and I need to not have the feeling someone is telling me what I
can and cannot put on my web site.

> We should talk about a better way for you to get the data too. Perhaps an
> XML file of the waypoints or something similar you can access. I'm working
> on a format for another project. Mind parsing XML?

I think I'm up to parsing XML. Let me know.

- - - - -

[[[I have to say, that Mr. Irish's response below surprised me. I had been
under the impression that his "requests" were just that--something we could
discuss and come up with something that would satisfy us both. Read on...]]]

- - - - -

From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:07:33 -0700

Apparently you do not respect my requests to remove the lost caches page or
to add my copyright information on your maps and pages.

Please understand there is no sort of compromise. You either remove the lost
caches page and add the copyright information or you do not. I think I fully
explained the reasons why both of these need to occur. If you do not remove
the link and any files relating to the lost caches from your site by the end
of today, I will be forced to take legal action. I'll give you until Monday
to add the copyright information to your web pages as well.

I want to make this clear. Since you are using MY copyrighted data you are
required to do what I say regarding these issues, or remove everything from
your site that contains my collection of data. Content theft is a crime.

This is not meant as a personal attack. I have to respond this way to anyone
who doesn't comply with my requests to make changes that impact the tone of
the game. There are many reasons why I have to protect my copyright, and
many reasons why lost caches need to be removed from your site.

Jeremy

- - - - -

[[[With the "Please understand there is no sort of compromise.", the threat
of legal action, and very short deadlines (on a holiday weekend when no
attorney's were available to me) I had no choice but to remove all data from
my web page.

And this is where we sit today. Except for a terse "Your access is back."
message sent on Sunday, I have not heard from Mr. Irish. I still hope that
he and I can work together for the greater good of the sport of Geocaching.

BTW, the interview went very well yesterday and I'll be sure to publish
information on it when I find out when and where it's airing.

Thanks you for slogging through this entire message! And special thanks to
all those that wrote me emails of support this weekend, it's very much
appreciated.

-Ed (Buxley)]]]

Geocaching - The GPS Cache Hunt
http://www.geocaching.com

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Luddites can say no...

[Wyatt Earp]

I seriously disagree with the "21st century arrogant westerner" label. A GPS reciever is only a tool, like a map.

Now, if you are clueless, even a GPS can't help you. Myself, I like a good map, because I almost always know which was in North. When I can convince my GF that we "need" a GPS, I'll get one, and in the mean time I will consider what it's going to do to my mind.

Other than being more background radiation, I doubt it will do much.

if you're looking for a good gps..

[jCaT]

check out the Garmin E-Trex. Besides the cheezy e-Name, it's got some very cool features. My favorite is it's ability to track your path as you walk, instead of just recording waypoints. It lets you view the path you've taken so far, which is pretty cool. The best part though? You can save that path into memory, and then retrace it. When you have the gps in 'trace' mode, the compass has an arrow on it that follows the path that you've taken. All you have to do is make sure the arrow is pointing forward. :)

Cheaper gps units can only mark waypoints (which this unit can do) but navigating between waypoints can be difficult unless you mark a LOT of them. If there's a mountain between you and that waypoint, you get to figure out how you got around it the first time, instead of just retracing your exact path.

Garmin also sells tons of accesories for their gps units. I currently have a car mount on my e-trex, as well as a cigarette lighter adapter. You can also get a bike mount, which i'm planning on doing if I ever get around to getting that mountain bike. :)

Bonus hacker points: Garmin also sells a RS232 serial cable that you can use to plug the gps unit into a computer. But that's not what's cool about it. You can use garmin's proprietary output format, or choose between about 6 or 7 standard output formats.. one of which is straight ASCII text. No reverse engineering needed.

I got my e-trex for $129 at fry's, but you might be able to find it cheaper online.

HTH

Re:if you're looking for a good gps..

[ergo98]

I got one of those as well and it is an amazing device (not to mention being amazingly accurate). To be honest though right after getting my E-Trex I wished I'd gotten the eTrex Venture. Given that it includes the PC cable (which I paid extra for) it is only marginally more expensive than the standard Etrex, but it also has a city database, 1MB of memory, and 160 x 288 resolution versus 64 x 128 for the standard Etrex...well I regretted getting the basic Etrex. You can do a compare at http://www.garmin.com/cgi-bin/compare/outdoor.

Re:if you're looking for a good gps..

[Polo]

I got a Garmin Emap. I've taken it everywhere with me. The main difference is that it does mapping. (though now the more expensive etrex legend units do too)

It's about the same size and runs on 2 AA batteries. It has a backlight for nighttime use (do all of them have this?)

It has a map of all the major roads in the wester hemisphere built in, but it's expandable with the mapsource CD and it's flash memory slot (unfortunately proprietary - though it IS small).

I got it for $195 a long time ago at www.tvnav.com. It's $190 now.

The guy who runs the site also runs a mailing list that's pretty informative. Whenever a firmware or software update comes out, he usually posts a message.

The only downside is that it doesn't do any sort of routing, and neither does the $125 Metroguide Mapsource software - which sucks since that $19 AAA map software at fry's does it pretty easily. You can also get topo maps.

Last plane flight I took it on registered 620 mph (or was it 650?) at 41,000 feet.

Re:if you're looking for a good gps..

[Technician]

Compare that with the Magellan GPS 315. For about the same money you get much more ability to preload tracks from TOPO GPS maps. Just draw where you want to go on the map, print it for reference and upload the track to the GPS. With the Datasend Software, thousands of points of interest are uploadable.

Re:How old is the data?

[tzanger]

Until recently (maybe a year ago) the military introduced timing errors into their signal so that it was impossible to get an exact fix although a ground based unit would increase your percision. Of course if this story is true it's rediculous.

Why's it rediculous? Selective Availability as it was called buggered with the timing of the satellites. Without a military unit you just couldn't get a perfectly accurate fix on your location. Here is some more info. Basically before you couldn't get a within more than about 100 meters with more than 95% confidence. That's been scrapped as of 1 May 2000; now you have accuracies of about 20m, and even better if you go differential GPS. I know that surveyors were especially happy to have SA dissappear.

Re:Copyright a few *numbers*?

[Jeremy Erwin]

Copyright is mainly a good thing. After all, If we didn't have copyright, everything we write would be in the public domain. Books would not be sellable, so not as many would get written and published. You couldn't release Linux under GPL. So copyright has good aspects.

The public domain only exists in opposition to "private domain"-- material under copyright. Books would have commercial value, but publishers would probably reap most of the profits. Authors might serve under contract--similar to Hollywood's "studio system," perhaps. The right to read might be governed by contract law. Who knows?

One case for radically restructuring copyright is found in Stephen Breyer, The Uneasy Case for Copyright: A Study of Copyright in Books, Photocopies, and Computer Programs, 84 Harv. L. Rev. 281 (1970).

Yes, that Stephen Breyer, otherwise known as "Supreme Court Justice Breyer"

Re:Slashdot Newsflash!

[crisco]

actually I get 500 Server Error Hard Transfer Limit for this user exceeded. It is off, due to a Slashdot effect of a different type.

Chris Cothrun
Curator of Chaos

Geocaching rulez!

[TheSync]

I went geocaching for the first time this weekend - it was way cool! I personally don't believe in using maps while geocaching though (other than perhaps very rough map on my Magellan MAP 330). If you knew where all the trails are, you'd not have such a great time in the rough. Plus, the search for the cache in the last 10-20 feet is almost half the fun.

Hey !I'm gonna copyright 3D coordinate systems

[crovira]

No planes will be able to fly without paying me ten bucks and the army will have to pay me too when they lob shells at the enemy. (like the offices where these idiots hang out.)

WTF? Are these guys morons or what...

Slashdot Newsflash!

[Mr. Flibble]

Buxley's GPS Geocache Maps Offline, Now Back

Posted to Slashdot, becomes a story, site gets slashdotted now headline reads:
Buxley's GPS Geocache Maps Online, Now Off
The this reporter feels that the original headline shall be appropriate in about 24 hours from now, when the /. effect wears off.

(Its a *JOKE* I KNOW the site is not down...)

Re:The problem with GPS

[Mr. Flibble]

One of the old style trolls! I find I must bite.

As a very experience outdoorsman I must disagree with the idea of "casting off" GPS systems. While I do not use them all the time, they have proven invaluable on the numerous Search and Rescue missions I have been on. (With the exception of the first generation Magellans, which did not work worth a damn...)

I am familiar with using a compass and altimiter for navigation in zero visibility, however, when mountain climbing in the rockies in Banff and Jasper, if you drop to zero vis (which can happen from blue sky to zero in about 5 min or less!) you will find out just how badly you want your GPS.

I have no problem with running out and "getting lost". I do it alot, but I also bring the gear along with me for getting found again. Where I live, if you were to do this on a regular basis with out the required skills, I would be one of the "Rescuers" looking for your body. Yes I said body. Out here, if you are not prepared, and the weather changes... you are probably dead. (Yet I constantly see idiots on top of the Columbia Icefields with shorts, t-shirt, and running shoes. And *NO* other gear....)

So old style troll (which you appear to be) your idea of casting off technology is actually a good one *IF* you have the skills to back it up. I have camped out on Islands with nothing by my clothes and a knife (with a backup kit for emergencys which I have not used -yet-.) I think you give good advice, cast off the tech, just be certain you know what you are doing when you do, and that in the area you choose to do it in won't kill you if you screw up.

Re:Another good idea gone commercial

[HiThere]

You mean like "Dungeons and Dragons". Going commercial had interesting effects. It made the playing a lot less creative, but a lot more popular. I still don't consider that there was any legal justification for giving that name to TSR, when it was common public usage, but just like the enclosure acts, if the populace being acted against doesn't have significant muscle, the laws will just get ignored.

OTOH, it was also interesting to see it as an example of standardization. It allowed it to be more possible for characters to transfer from one game setting to another. But it was still unprincipled claim jumping that was backed by the government only because the claimjumpers had a lot more money/power/organization than those jumped upon.

I'm sure that you can think of other examples, but this is to note that it's not only in large and significant cases that this principle applies.

Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.

Re:Like phonebooks?

[Royster]

The copyright in the cache data, if any, is restricted to the selection and arrangment of the data. The facts themselves can not be copyrighted.

Feist says that an alphabetical listing of phone numbers carries no copyright protection. The implication is that an alphabetical arrangement is not sufficient original expression to gain copyright protection and a listing of all phone numbers (excluding those who ask to be unlisted) carries no copyright for selection. By analogy, I suspect that a chronological arrangement or any other type of arrangement sugegsted by the facts themselves would not qualify for copyright protection.

Re:What bothers me..

[sharkey]

There is a very simple explanation for this: Read the instructions on a box of toothpicks. Then, you will understand.

--

Re:The problem with GPS

[Moofie]

Yup. Let's get rid of things like radios. And rope. And knives. All that technological froo-froo just gets in the way of getting yourself killed in the wilderness.

Tools is tools. A different set of tools does not change a person...only that person's capabilities. If you're a jaded nature hating jerk, getting rid of your GPS isn't going to change you.

Re:The problem with GPS

[majcher]

Brilliant troll, as usual. However, let me respond as if you believed what you say.

Wonder comes not from being lost, as you seem to imply, but in discovering where you are, where you are going, and what you are looking for. Certainly, there is a certain romance in losing yourself in the wilds (of America, of the mind, or what have you), but the true excitement comes from finding your way - or the way of another. And this is where the beauty of geocaching lies; someone else has hidden a treasure Out There Somewhere, and it is up to you to put on their shoes, put yourself in their head, and walk the path that they walked themselves. Sure, there's a difference between taking a stroll through the woods and following a map, but each of these things is a special treat - there's no reason to pick one to the exclusion of all the rest. Enjoy it all! Just because you're using a GPS, or a compass, or what have you, doesn't make it any less fun...

Keep Off My Secret Coordinates!

[SEWilco]

I have, of course, encrypted the GPS coordinates which I use. That way nobody can enter those areas without buying my location decryption software.

A new concept...

[Polo]

A friend and I have been exploring a new GPS idea...

Ok, it's a little silly, but we call it geolunching (or geomunching). We just give each other GPS coordinates for friday lunches.

And you know, those "what do you want to eat?" indecisive questions never come up. You have no idea what you'll encounter at the end.

I've been toying with the idea of putting waypoints into the scheme somehow. Something like "go to this point and find a sign with a phone number. Put a decimal place in front of it. Add that number + .34567 to your N position and that number + .01024 to your W position and that's the final destination.".

If your gps does mapping, it's more fun to keep the destination way off the map and go by the direction of travel arrow.

Of course, other people think it's stupid.

Re:A new concept...

[AMuse]

Just be sure your decimal notation is correct. I'd hate to see a trip to the Olive Garden become a trip to "Hanson Live at the Paramount" because a 4 got turned into a 5 and all.
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Re:Like phonebooks?

[prizog]

You are referring to "FEIST PUBLICATIONS, INC. v. RURAL TEL. SERVICE CO."

Here's the case:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl ?c ourt=US&vol=499&invol=340

Big bad IP threats

[thogard]

I own geocache.org which I think I obtained before Jeremy started his site. I made some of the inital maps with locations. His inital source of data came from some where else and I'm going to send a message off to their maintainers to pull the use of it.

That database started out as a community effort, and the database should stay that way.

Now I'm going to have to build my own database front end.

Re:Big bad IP threats

[Alatar]

Nope...

domain: geocache.org
created: 2000-08-06 15:19:24 UTC CORE-11

Domain Name: GEOCACHE.COM
Record created on 2000-06-08.

Looks like you got beat by two months.

Re:Big bad IP threats

[Mike_Teague]

The geocaching.com webmaster got his initial (I SAY INITIAL) database from me.. When I gave it to him, it contained perhaps around 100 locations.. Now it's over 2000... I was writing HTML in a friggin text editor, and it got tedious to maintain, so I asked geocaching.com to take it over.. You can take mine, I have no problem with that, never did... It's still at http://www.triax.com/~yngwie/oldlist.html And it's friggin older than hell! The original Geocaching website was http://www.triax.com/~yngwie/gps.html You can easily see the difference..

Another good idea gone commercial

[stienman]

Reminds me of the CDDB. While not exactly the same, they both started as community efforts, and both turned into commercial efforts with legal strife trying to protect what they consider their territory.

What makes these people think that there's only room for one player in their respective areas? It is frustrating trying to explain to someone that competition is a good thing for them!

-Adam

Objects in browser may be stupider than they appear.

This sig 80% recycled bits, 20% post user.

Lol! Can you say "completely baseless threats"?

[Dwonis]

The last time I checked, you couldn't copyright facts. (Though you can patent them in the U.S.A.)
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Re: zero visibility

[jgennick]

if you drop to zero vis (which can happen from blue sky to zero in about 5 min or less!) you will find out just how badly you want your GPS.

Good point. I hike w/map & compass, and know how to use them, so I've never bothered to cough up the extra $$$ for a GPS. Your comment about zero visibility is the first time anyone's given me a reason to change my mind and consider GPS.

Like phonebooks?

[rkent]

Well, I can't find an appropriate case description online, but I remember hearing of a ruling that the content of phonebooks can't be copyrighted - or lists of addresses, or other similar compilations of public information. A particular presentation might be copyrighted, but the information within, is not.

Seems like the GPS coordinates would definitely be covered under the "list of addresses" type of precedent.

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Re:Like phonebooks?

[twrake]

Here is a case, ALEXANDRIA DRAFTING CO., v. ANDREW H. AMSTERDAM d/b/a FRANKLIN MAPS that uses Feist directly for printed maps.

The ruling when in part like this:

"Although Defendant did copy many isolated, factual elements from ADC atlases, factual appropriations per se do not constitute copyright infringement. "

Oh, the irony...

[Moonshadow]

He puts the site back up. Article is posted on Slashdot. Boom, site goes down again.

We're doing Geocaching's job for them.

Re:What bothers me..

[isaac_akira]

Can I sue you for threatening to sue me for threatening to sue you? I'm confused...

(btw I'm going to sue you for mental anguish caused by this terrible confusion)

What's wrong with America ?

[dingbat_hp]

This dispute seems to encapsulate a lot of what's wrong with America these days. 8-(

Why does anyone need an "Official Geocaching Site" ? Get off your fat SUV-encased butts, get out there and be your own "official" leagues and teams. You don't need some corporate Disney-wannabee telling you how to enjoy yourselves!

Geocaching needs a minimum of two people, some cheap tech, and a flyposted wall poster to communicate between them (oh, and several billions of technology funded by those nice people at the military-industrial complex). You don't need an "official" site, a hierarchy, a league, or a figurehead chairman (especially not a self-appointed one).

Ignore geocaching.com. Don't boycott it, that's itself too organised, just go and do something else instead. There's a whole internet to play with (thanks again to those helpful mil-ind people) - read PhilG's book, and build your own geocaching list server.

What is it with America, "Land of the Free", that can't even fix itself lunch these days without a degree of regimentation and standardised prole-feeding-centres that would put North Korea to shame ? Did you throw off the yoke of colonial British Redcoats, just so that you could be fed by uniformed redshirts ?

Secondly, the map site is legally screwed. He's not providing map references, he's providing direct references to someone else's collection of information. As any amount of legal precedent has shown, a collected work like this is material protected by copyright (and rightly so).

If this map site just listed links to locations, links as DCMI points or to the Getty Thesaurus, then there would be no problem -- but that's not what it's doing.

Re:The problem with GPS

[j_w_d]

Anyone can be lost usimng a GPS unit. The essential skill, after all, is reading the map - and remembering to use fresh batteries. jwd -- The only thing more dangerous to liberty than a politician is two politicians.

Database copyright

[Animats]

This is about "database copyright". There is no such thing in U.S. law. But bills to create it have been introduced in previous years. It's something to keep watching for in Congress. Generally, the search engine companies are against it, so there's a significant lobby on the other side.

Under current law, you can't copyright a "collection of facts", although you can copyright a presented arrangement of them. In the days of printed reference books, that was enough to discourage running off copies of reference books; you'd have to re-typeset, as a minimum. Today, when you pick up some big collection of data, you typically process it and present it in a different way, and that's legal. There are companies that don't like this. So far, they've mostly lost.

Geocaching...

[HomeySmurf]

...is such a cool idea. I had never heard of it (perhaps there are old /. posts). Now I finally have a reason to get a GPS unit. This is a fun way to get to see cool locations.

However, I wonder how long until this sort of thing just degenerates into a bunch of teenagers just taking everything from the cache. I think the only way for this to continue is to make it something involving many landmarks like orienteering exercises. Perhaps more riddles as well. The Geocaching FAQ reccommends offsets too, something involving needing to visit the spot..ie go west as many seconds of longitude as there are stripes on the building, etc.

He is linking to content directly...

[HomeySmurf]

...so I can see what the problem is. There have been conflicting rulings in the past on about linking to deeply located content, but that seems to be what the Buxley's site is doing. When you click on their map, it brings you to the geocaching.com site with that relevant information. If had gathered the info with web spiders for example, he would be in a much better position. He is providing a portal giving direct links to content (kind of like Slashdot with news articles).

The whole fiasco

[cosmol]

I've been geocaching sonce the first /. story and have been following these disputes for quite awhile. Here's the story

Geocaching(which is now trademarked by geocaching.com), or gps stashing, or whatever you want to call it was born on a newsgroup, sites started springing up listing stash information. Geocaching.com came into the scene and became THE geocaching site for a few reasons, first and foremost it was much slicker than any other cache site, second because there was quite a media blitz. Now I don't want to tarnish the excellent work Jeremy Irish on geocaching.com, but some of the things he has done really make me (and a few others, though not a majority) really angry. He formed a business to own the site, which should have raised a few eyebrows, but people were too busy mutually masturbating at what a great site geocaching.com was.

Orignally most geocaching discussion happened on an egroup mailing list called gpsstash. Every month or two someone would ask for a downloadable list of waypoints. The request would get ignored most of the time, other times they would get brushed off by Jeremy saying that it would allow people to maintain their own copy of the info and it might go stale. In response, someone wrote a perl script to slurp info off of the site (but did not distribute it) and Jeremy responded that any attempt to slurp data off of the site would be met with legal action. Well, people continued to ask for the feature but nothing happened.

Jeremy also declared the original mailing list dead, and started hosting his own list (with alot less features, I might add.) Once again, nobody cared. Another revealing incident happened when somebody (not Buxley) made a graphic map of his state locations of stashes on it. Immediately Jeremy unveiled HIS maps.

Buxley was evidently the first to create a fully functional wold-wide map site, and then one day Jeremy decides to threaten legal action against it. FINALLY people realize that Jeremy's absolute control is a Bad ThingTM, and come out of the woodwork to complain about it. After much discussion between all parties involved Jeremy has said that he will make info available on certain caches on an opt-in basis. His excuse for not doing it before was that people may end up with stale data if there isn't a central distribution point. I have suggested that he release it under the Open Directory License, which maintains a central distribution site, and prohibits commercial use, but my post has been ignored.

To summarize, geocaching.com is a great site, but its administrator doesn't play well with others and want's to run the whole show.

Re:How old is the data?

[IronChef]

It is possible to get an exemption, and get GPS gear that gives you full military precision. Seriously pro surveying operations weren't hampered by SA, it was just us little people.

Re:What bothers me..

[Some Dumbass...]

I was going to take the time to agree with this, but I'm going pack instead. Someone just copyrighted my house's location, so now I have to either move the house or get out.

I'm going to try to prove in court that the exact location they copyrighted is actually my garbage cans, so it's their job to take out the garbage from now on. Maybe if I'm lucky I'll win. But until then, bye!

Patented GPS Info

[wardomon]

If I understand the patent law (and IANAL) you can only patent where you are. Unless you're an existentialist, it's not all that useful.

Why GPS Locations?

[UberDork]

Now, I have a set of location data which I acquired using basic trigonometry and some near-prehistoric equipment known as compass and tape. If any of those data equate to that acquired by someone's copy-righted GPS data, where do I stand?

Obviously (well, at least to me), the data is, if you like, a basic truth which may be divined in all manner of ways and cannot be copyrighted purely because of the way in which it was acquired.

If such data was copyrightable, perhaps the copyright should belong to the GPS receiver manufacturer, and we could let Garmin and Magellan, etc. fight over who actually owns it... 8-)

Of course, my opinion is worth about as much as your own and normal caveats apply.

Re:Degeneration? Hardly.

[mikethegeek]

"Degeneration" implies that it used to be worse. It wasn't. Frivolous lawsuits, lobbyists, influence peddling, and all that are nothing new. The same thing used to happen in Rome, Bagdad, Jerusalem, or Peking. You used to lose liberty, limb, or life if you lost. Now you usually just lose your shirt."

I'll grant you that this sort of thing has probably always happened.

However, as recently as 10-15 years ago, the number of these stupid suits was less than today. 20-30 years ago you hardly heard of such a thing.

The difference is, 10+ years ago, there used to be a lot more COMMON SENSE in the courts. Judges felt that it was part of their duty to reject out of hand obviously stupid and unreasonable claims.

Unfortunately, the last 5-10 years have seen a proliferation of stipid IP law that actually DOES threaten to make Americans slaves to commercial entites, and with the laws, more law suits.

The lawsuit industry in the last few years particularly has become a growth industry. Judges are increasingly nothing more than political hacks at best, delusional Napoleon-wannabes at worst.

What we need is a breakout of common sense. However, I'm increasingly of the opinion that common sense is misnamed because is not very common.

This claim is SO stupid as to defy all reason. But I bet there is some idiot judge who would hear it, thus costing the defendant a lot of money, when they'd done NOTHING wrong.

That is why judges NEED to be more a LOT more socially responsible than they are today, not accepting such obviously (to any person with a pulse who isn't a plantiff's lawyer or "judge" Kaplan who is breating and has a pulse) IDIOTIC claims. The judge is the first line of defense in preventing frivilous lawsuits.

Cases such as this are the stort that ruin the dignity and integrity OF the court. Maybe the black-robed wannabe Napoleons should think of that. If you ever read over some of the things the Bar actually REQUIRES of attorneys to be members, BRINGING such suits actually DOES merit disbarment! But I bet today it would never happen.

Sooner or later, when enough people have been sued (seems to me odds are almost every citizen is going to be sued by someone sooner or later), the public is going to demand reform in the courts, and it's not going to go well for the judges and lawyers. So they better start policing themselves now.

What bothers me..

[mikethegeek]

Is that we've degenerated as a civilization to the point that it can even be a QUESTION that such an idiotic, frivilous legal claim could even MAKE it to a court!

How the hell can a commercial entity "copyright" coordinates? Hell, they don't even OWN the places!

What we need are laws that punish those who FILE frivilous suits, and those who THREATEN frivilous suits. These days, the risk of being sued is so great, and the damage that can be caused by such suits are so great, why should these THREATS be treated any differently than threatening to break someone's leg?

Unfortunately, since laws are written by congressmen (who are mostly lawyers), or MORE frequently, by special interests (the American Trial Lawyers, the unprincipled cartel of ambulance chasing plantiff's lawyers is one of the MOST powerful), I don't see it happening.

Didn't geocaching.com link directly?

[LentilZha]

As an active geocacher, I've used the maps in question as linked from geocaching.com. They were available up until last month sometime.

You'd think that they'd have the good graces to not sue someone while they're utilizing a service that they've provided.

My apologies if the story says something different, but it's been slashdotted right off the map; can't even find the plot point. Anyone know of a mirror?

Now I can charge

[H1r0Pr0tag0n1st]

Now I can charge all those free loaders that cone to my house to drink beer as long as I record my GPS location?
WOOOHoooo!!

Other dangers with mapping the world

[blang]

A few years ago a Norwegian telecom engineer was arrested in Russia for espionage. He was on an assignment to measure accurate locations to put up cellular locations, and he must somehow have failed to get some permits.

The exact locations of military installations (even baracks used to house recruits) are considered sensitive information. (The weird thing is that all the sites that are considered "secret" have big signs posted that photography is illegal, something I am sure the _real_ spys are grateful for.

I'd think geo caches might face worse opponents than the evil corporate world. The army, navy, air force, CIA, KGB, GRU, NSA, FBI, and any other secret and conventional military organisation in any county in the world are more likely to cause some headache here.