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Buxley's GPS Geocache Maps Offline, Now Back
Jess writes: "Ed Hall, known for his cool maps that pinpoint GPS treasure hunt locations was recently threatened with legal action from Geocaching.com. Geocaching.com told Ed that he must comply with their "requests to put copyright notices on all geocaching data". Ed had to bring his site down for one week while he sought legal advice to determine if gps locations can be copyrighted. His lawyers told him everything is legitimate and his maps are back up! I don't think this fight is over yet but it will be interesting to see if gps location information can be copyrighted." This redoubles my current ambition to find an inexpensive, decent GPS receiver. Then I can copyright everywhere I go and charge royalties for visiting.
If geocaching.com lets anyone slurp up their data, who insures that whoever slurps it doesn't keep the cache deletions current? Sure, if you post data on geocaching.com you can post it anywhere else too, but it isn't geocaching.com's fault that the data wasn't "contained" in that case.
I think they're trying to protect themselves by being able to say "If you contact us about a problem cache, we will remove it." and not having to worry about contacting many websites about the change. I think it is perfectly reasonable, and in the long run will probably help protect our natural environment.
Perhaps "copyright" per se isn't the right way to go about it, but I can appreciate geocaching.com's dilemma.
From: "Ed Hall" edhall@brillig.com
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To: list@geocaching.com
Subject: [GEO] Buxley's Geocaching Maps (status)
Everyone-
First of all, let me apologize for the length of this message. I've gotten
so many "what's going on with the maps?" emails, that I figured this was the
easiest way to bring everyone up to date with regards to the status. If you
can manage to slog through the following emails, you will know as much as I
do about the situation between Mr. Irish and myself.
I've included all the email back and forth between Mr. Irish and myself
since this all began last Thursday morning. These are the complete and
unedited emails, the only thing I've done is to place the emails in
chronological order for ease in reading. I've placed my comments [[[inside
square brackets]]] when needed.
Sorry again for the length.
-Ed (Buxley)
- - - - -
From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: Remove Lost Caches link.
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:33:39 -0700
Ed,
Please remove the lost caches page from your web site.
In addition, I need to have you provide an addtional copyright message on
your maps and web pages as follows -
"Geocaching Data Copyright 2001 Grounded, Inc."
Thanks,
Jeremy
- - - - -
[[[I didn't respond to this email for reasons I'll make clear below. The
next morning the very cool "Project A.P.E." promotion with 20th Century Fox
appeared on Mr. Irish's web page. Fortunately for me, it was placed only
about 40 miles from where I live. I juggled my schedule at work and headed
out mid-day with a friend of mine. I've written up a description of the hunt
on the geocaching discussion boards at
http://forums.groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/
a blast finding the cache and another cacher that I had known previously
only from emails and logs was there too.
When I got home from the following email was waiting for me:]]]
- - - - -
From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: Project APE
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:56:01 -0700
Hopefully you didn't have an unfair advantage for finding this cache?
Whatever the case, how did it look? I'm sort of in the dark regarding
contents, etc.
And did you get my email re: the lost caches page and copyright info?
Jeremy
- - - - -
[[[I don't know about you, but I really take umbrage at being called a
cheater -- I don't know any other way to interpret the first paragraph other
than as an accusation of cheating on my part. I wasn't expecting a note of
congratulations or anything, although that would have been a nice gesture,
but really! I've found a bunch of caches in the past, I own a GPS, and the
cache was 40 miles from my house; that's the sum total of my "unfair
advantage". I think the two people with me (one of whom I'd never met
before) when I found the cache would vouch for this.
This was my reply to Mr. Irish. I regret I might have been a bit less civil
than I should have been, but I did do him the courtesy of answer all his
questions.]]]
- - - - -
From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 5:54 PM
To: Jeremy
Subject: RE: Project APE
> Hopefully you didn't have an unfair advantage for finding this cache?
Gee, thanks for the congratulatory message. =P No, I didn't cheat.
> Whatever the case, how did it look? I'm sort of in the dark regarding
> contents, etc.
A very large ammo box, about 6 inches, by 18 inches, by 3 feet long. The
contents were a welcome sheet, a prop from the movie (a very cool looking
spoon), a certificate of authentication, and a camera. Another cacher (Ron
Streeter) got there before Julie and I did, but was searching about 50 feet
away when we found it.
So who did you get to plant the cache? It was a nice spot.
> And did you get my email re: the lost caches page and copyright info?
Yes I did, but without any explanation of why you want me to make changes to
my web page, I really didn't know how to respond. Feedback on both the "Lost
Caches" and "Statistics" page has been very positive--people seem to enjoy
them both.
It seems that by working together we can do better for the sport and the
players than by working at cross-purposes. Don't you agree?
-Ed
- - - - -
[[[And Mr. Irish's response below. I'm not sure what he means by "You do
glean information about new caches before anyone else would." since I get my
information from his web pages just like everyone else does. I have NO
special access to his web site or data files.]]]
- - - - -
From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Project APE
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:29:24 -0700
Hey, it was a valid question. You do glean information about new caches
before anyone else would. Folks would ask the same question of me if I were
to be the first person to discover a cache planted. I have decided to remove
myself from the cache searches to remain impartial and to keep it fair (I
would be fair, but appearances are everything). As a person who is providing
a service to the game sometimes it's best to at least look impartial. I'm
basically obligated to ask.
By the way, the spoon was designed by Tim Burton, so it's definitely a
collectable (you certainly know that, so I'm stating the obvious).
Congratulations for being the first! Hopefully the cache won't be too cool
that someone may want to take it. I'd hate for that to happen, but it may be
inevitable. Fox did get permission to plant it as well as the other caches,
which is a boon for the sport.
Re: lost caches -
I want to make sure you understand I'm not just being a bad guy about this.
As I explained before, the caches have been archived for many different
reasons, and folks in the past understood that the coordinates would be
stricken from the site. Providing easy access to them may encourage people
to traffic in these locations which is the reason (in many cases) why the
caches were removed in the first place.
Unfortunately I don't have time to explain myself for these requests
(especially re: the lost caches, which I explained before), so it may come
off harsh. For that I apologize. However, I do have the copyright on the
cache collection (one of the only things that I have as part of the work I
do for the site), and am allowing your site to use the information from mine
in order to generate the maps. I do think it's a great service but I also
need you to comply with promises I make to the folks on the geocaching.com
web site.
Thanks. I'd love to see a picture of the spoon if you have a digital camera.
Jeremy
- - - - -
[[[Sometime around this point, Mr. Irish removed the link to my map page
from his web site. I have no problems with this, it's his web page and, of
course, he can link to anyone he likes.
Also somewhere about this time, my access to geocaching.com started going
away in a very interesting way. At first I thought it was just a bug on Mr.
Irish's server (things like all cache names showing up as "Geocache") but
then additional changes started popping up that required deliberate changes
to code started to occur: Things like the cache's state or country info
being displayed as "Planet: Earth" and the cache owner's name being listed
on every cache as "Human". The latitude and longitude of caches was
randomized and the cache logs were just gone. This last part was
particularly frustrating when I got an automated notice that my 'E' Is For
Expedition cache (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp
had been logged for the first time, but I had no way of knowing if the
person logging it (whoever they were) had found it or not. Thanks to
everyone who emailed me my own cache page on Saturday, it is appreciated!
Another change (that I didn't find out about until later) affected
everybody. All access to all lost cache and their logs was removed. The only
thing left on those pages was a "This cache is gone" notice. Owners couldn't
even read past log entries on their own caches.
Well, these changes had to be deliberate since they did require special code
so I asked Mr. Irish about them below: (And no, I never did manage to get
him that picture of the spoon)]]]
- - - - -
From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 10:40 AM
To: Jeremy Irish
Subject: Scrambled geocache pages?
Jeremy-
You might want to check your web page's code--the geocache pages I'm seeing
are missing/have wrong data. Also, the Mapblast maps show the wrong
location.
BTW, I have a TV interview on Monday--they want to go out geocache hunting
with me. I hope this problem can be resolved by then, otherwise I don't know
what we're going to look for or talk about...
Regards,
-Ed
- - - - -
From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 10:58:16 -0700
Cool! Who's interviewing you?
I'll look into the coordinate issues. When do you think you can remove the
lost caches link and add the copyright info?
We should talk about a better way for you to get the data too. Perhaps an
XML file of the waypoints or something similar you can access. I'm working
on a format for another project. Mind parsing XML?
Jeremy
- - - - -
[[[One thing about the above note that I found very interesting is that Mr.
Irish is planning on publishing all caches and their coordinates in XML
format. I sincerely hope this information is made available to
everyone--Lots of cool utilities could be written that would make geocaching
easier for all. And yes, I realize his mentioning of XML for the first time
in months was merely a "carrot" intended to get me to make the changes he
had requested. But it's a start.
Here's my response below. I wrote it in the sincere belief that Mr. Irish
and I could reach some sort of compromise on the two (unrelated in my mind)
requests he had originally made.]]]
- - - - -
From: Ed Hall [mailto:edhall@brillig.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:22 AM
To: Jeremy Irish
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?
> Cool! Who's interviewing you?
Yes it is cool, I'm looking forward to it. Free publicity on a cable channel
seen across the US. Details to follow once we clear up our other issues.
> I'll look into the coordinate issues. When do you think you can remove the
> lost caches link and add the copyright info?
I think we should start talking about the two issues; I'm sure we can work
out a compromise that's acceptable to us both. You need to get the credit
you deserve and I need to not have the feeling someone is telling me what I
can and cannot put on my web site.
> We should talk about a better way for you to get the data too. Perhaps an
> XML file of the waypoints or something similar you can access. I'm working
> on a format for another project. Mind parsing XML?
I think I'm up to parsing XML. Let me know.
- - - - -
[[[I have to say, that Mr. Irish's response below surprised me. I had been
under the impression that his "requests" were just that--something we could
discuss and come up with something that would satisfy us both. Read on...]]]
- - - - -
From: "Jeremy Irish" <jeremy@geocaching.com>
To: "Ed Hall" <edhall@brillig.com>
Subject: RE: Scrambled geocache pages?
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:07:33 -0700
Apparently you do not respect my requests to remove the lost caches page or
to add my copyright information on your maps and pages.
Please understand there is no sort of compromise. You either remove the lost
caches page and add the copyright information or you do not. I think I fully
explained the reasons why both of these need to occur. If you do not remove
the link and any files relating to the lost caches from your site by the end
of today, I will be forced to take legal action. I'll give you until Monday
to add the copyright information to your web pages as well.
I want to make this clear. Since you are using MY copyrighted data you are
required to do what I say regarding these issues, or remove everything from
your site that contains my collection of data. Content theft is a crime.
This is not meant as a personal attack. I have to respond this way to anyone
who doesn't comply with my requests to make changes that impact the tone of
the game. There are many reasons why I have to protect my copyright, and
many reasons why lost caches need to be removed from your site.
Jeremy
- - - - -
[[[With the "Please understand there is no sort of compromise.", the threat
of legal action, and very short deadlines (on a holiday weekend when no
attorney's were available to me) I had no choice but to remove all data from
my web page.
And this is where we sit today. Except for a terse "Your access is back."
message sent on Sunday, I have not heard from Mr. Irish. I still hope that
he and I can work together for the greater good of the sport of Geocaching.
BTW, the interview went very well yesterday and I'll be sure to publish
information on it when I find out when and where it's airing.
Thanks you for slogging through this entire message! And special thanks to
all those that wrote me emails of support this weekend, it's very much
appreciated.
-Ed (Buxley)]]]
Geocaching - The GPS Cache Hunt
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One of the old style trolls! I find I must bite.
As a very experience outdoorsman I must disagree with the idea of "casting off" GPS systems. While I do not use them all the time, they have proven invaluable on the numerous Search and Rescue missions I have been on. (With the exception of the first generation Magellans, which did not work worth a damn...)
I am familiar with using a compass and altimiter for navigation in zero visibility, however, when mountain climbing in the rockies in Banff and Jasper, if you drop to zero vis (which can happen from blue sky to zero in about 5 min or less!) you will find out just how badly you want your GPS.
I have no problem with running out and "getting lost". I do it alot, but I also bring the gear along with me for getting found again. Where I live, if you were to do this on a regular basis with out the required skills, I would be one of the "Rescuers" looking for your body. Yes I said body. Out here, if you are not prepared, and the weather changes... you are probably dead. (Yet I constantly see idiots on top of the Columbia Icefields with shorts, t-shirt, and running shoes. And *NO* other gear....)
So old style troll (which you appear to be) your idea of casting off technology is actually a good one *IF* you have the skills to back it up. I have camped out on Islands with nothing by my clothes and a knife (with a backup kit for emergencys which I have not used -yet-.) I think you give good advice, cast off the tech, just be certain you know what you are doing when you do, and that in the area you choose to do it in won't kill you if you screw up.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
A friend and I have been exploring a new GPS idea...
.34567 to your N position and that number + .01024 to your W position and that's the final destination.".
Ok, it's a little silly, but we call it geolunching (or geomunching). We just give each other GPS coordinates for friday lunches.
And you know, those "what do you want to eat?" indecisive questions never come up. You have no idea what you'll encounter at the end.
I've been toying with the idea of putting waypoints into the scheme somehow. Something like "go to this point and find a sign with a phone number. Put a decimal place in front of it. Add that number +
If your gps does mapping, it's more fun to keep the destination way off the map and go by the direction of travel arrow.
Of course, other people think it's stupid.
Geocaching(which is now trademarked by geocaching.com), or gps stashing, or whatever you want to call it was born on a newsgroup, sites started springing up listing stash information. Geocaching.com came into the scene and became THE geocaching site for a few reasons, first and foremost it was much slicker than any other cache site, second because there was quite a media blitz. Now I don't want to tarnish the excellent work Jeremy Irish on geocaching.com, but some of the things he has done really make me (and a few others, though not a majority) really angry. He formed a business to own the site, which should have raised a few eyebrows, but people were too busy mutually masturbating at what a great site geocaching.com was.
Orignally most geocaching discussion happened on an egroup mailing list called gpsstash. Every month or two someone would ask for a downloadable list of waypoints. The request would get ignored most of the time, other times they would get brushed off by Jeremy saying that it would allow people to maintain their own copy of the info and it might go stale. In response, someone wrote a perl script to slurp info off of the site (but did not distribute it) and Jeremy responded that any attempt to slurp data off of the site would be met with legal action. Well, people continued to ask for the feature but nothing happened.
Jeremy also declared the original mailing list dead, and started hosting his own list (with alot less features, I might add.) Once again, nobody cared. Another revealing incident happened when somebody (not Buxley) made a graphic map of his state locations of stashes on it. Immediately Jeremy unveiled HIS maps.
Buxley was evidently the first to create a fully functional wold-wide map site, and then one day Jeremy decides to threaten legal action against it. FINALLY people realize that Jeremy's absolute control is a Bad ThingTM, and come out of the woodwork to complain about it. After much discussion between all parties involved Jeremy has said that he will make info available on certain caches on an opt-in basis. His excuse for not doing it before was that people may end up with stale data if there isn't a central distribution point. I have suggested that he release it under the Open Directory License, which maintains a central distribution site, and prohibits commercial use, but my post has been ignored.
To summarize, geocaching.com is a great site, but its administrator doesn't play well with others and want's to run the whole show.