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TiVo Upgrade Isn't
creff writes: "TiVo's new software, version 2.0, disables features on recorders that do not have a subscription to their service. I would like to pose the question of ethics and legality of this move to the slashdot readers. Do they have the right to modify an item that you own? I don't remember clicking on any EULA..." Another reader submitted a long thread about this "upgrade".
I really don't have much sympathy -- even if you don't want to pay for the guide data, plugging the thing into the wall to use Tivo's dialup to access Tivo's network to sync to Tivo's NTP servers means you're using their service and therefore are going to get the upgrades and other such things, and rightly so. If you don't want to take part in the Tivo process, don't plug it into the phone jack -- Tivo doesn't owe you a free clock sync if you're not paying them to use their network.
That aside, there's a couple of options. One is that Tivo offers a 'lifetime' subscription to the guide data for a flat fee of $200. Sounds expensive, but just think of it as a full-featured Tivo for a one-time cost of $600.
Failing that, you still have your old 1.3 version on there in a separate partition. Tivo upgrades load the new OS onto an alternate root partition, then when it's successful, resets the boot sector to boot from the upgraded partition. The old one is still there, as the new 'alternate,' waiting for the next upgrade.
There's a holy MESS of information in the Tivo Hack FAQ (start at www.tivocommunity.com) about how to get a serial console on your Tivo box and change around your boot partitions as well as a bunch of other stuff. Unplug your Tivo from the wall so you don't get any MORE upgrades (therefore blowing away your 1.3), and start reading. You can get your 1.3 back, although there are all SORTS of caveats and readme's about doing a revert like that. Stop complaining and start reading and learning.
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It would be very hard to prove that there was actual intent to do harm. Also, the computer is explicitly not protected from Tivo. They automatically have access to it if you hook up your phone cord.
Calm down already, from TiVolutionary's response in the forum:
"For the record...
In our next release we are reinstating the use of the record button (the only thing that changed between 1.3 and 2.0.1 for customers who bought units that shipped with software prior to 2.0. We did not really mean to change that functionality. We do apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the time it takes to get the new software out.
In 2.5, with no service, on boxes that were purchased with a software release prior to 2.0, pressing the record button will record for 30 minutes, and then stop. Nothing else should change in the no-service-state."
Joseph Elwell.
Being heavily into the TiVo underground scene (tivo.lightn.org), I thought I'd share some information about the situation.
While I am generally a supporter of TiVo, I have to agree with this guy. TiVo stated that TiVos that upgraded from 1.3 to 2.0 would still be able to manually record shows (boxes that ship with 2.0 are limited to the 30 minute buffer period). While this was technically true, they certainly downgraded functionality that people paid for.
The one touch recording was supposedly removed because it was causing confusion since it would just automatically start recording that 30 min block. So it wasn't too useful to begin with, but certainly useful in certain situations.
I think the now playing changes are the most significant, as they represent a direct effort to remove functionality from 1.3 software.
The "nag screen" is not new. Few people on the avsforum new about it in the beginning when everyone subscribed, but when it came to people's attention, there was some heated debate, with me against TiVo. I never felt they gave an adequate responce to how having a nag screen makes the subscription to the service completely "optional."
The backdoor to the 1.3 software is known and the method to set the clock is also, although it is certainly not user friendly. Check tivo.samba.org (I think the input format is the same as the date command arguement).
Downgrading is impossible short of a complete backup of the Tivo harddrive. The database format and structure has changed and there is no easy way back. Although a lot of people did backups when they upgraded their tivo's hard drive. Just don't restore from an image from another brand or to a lesser version of software than the tivo shipped with! And some people are working on being able to do a complete drive setup on any sized disk from scratch.
There is a EULA in the manual, but I think it only applies when you subscribe to the service. The same debate about loss of functionality was made when people saw of the changes in 2.0 as negative (no matter how minor). The general consensus was that TiVo couldn't support multiple versions economically, so if you subscribed to the service you had to accept the changes in functionality that came with software upgrades. This situation is certainly less clear...
Also, it is general held that until recently (and maybe still), TiVo paid manufactures a certain amount of money for each box sold. And they certainly spend a lot to obtain each user (advertising money, check the financial reports). Most of their income comes from subscription fees. To some that just indicates a bad business model and they won't care, others might.
Yes, but much of the information is stored on a proprietary filesystem known as MFS (media file system). It's complicated by the fact the standard scripts only allow upgrades, not downgrades (hence why TiVo refused to reload the 1.3 software).
The proceedure for restoring the old software isn't easy, it's still on the disk but you need some means of accessing it. For those not familiar with the TiVO it goes something like this:
The tivo has a connector on the back for interfacing a DSS satellite system, with the addition of a null modem adapter a user can access the PROM menu and change configutation data like the kernel bootup params. The 1.3 startup scripts used to have a backdoor -- bash would be run if you added the variable shondss=true (sh on dss port) to the kernel commandline. Unfortunately that's one of the things they remove in the new software. Bugger.
Ok we'll boot the 1.3 root partition, just a change of root= right? nope. The UI is loaded on the MFS and the supporting applications on the root filesystem, mixing and matching them can cause real trouble. Ok, let's not start the UI, let's set 'runmyworld=false'.
So now we've altered the root=, added shondss=false and runmyworld=false and we finally have a bash prompt. What now? well now we have to remove the new version of the software via tivosh (a convoluted shell built around tcl).. I won't even get into that mess.
Oh.. one other thing, the database format used on the MFS partition has changed between 1.3 and 2.0. I'm not aware of how much has changed, it may only be portions used by the subscription in which case you could revert.
At any rate attempting to revert the softare would void your warranty and possibly screw up your tivo. Fun huh?
- MbM
- MbM
There are lots of people who would have
bought one of these things (like me) who
won't now (like me) because of this.
I hope it's way more than just a class-action
suit. I hope they broke some international law
by screwing up the Canadians, and have to pay
billions in fines or their CEO has to do hard time, or something like that. If the extortion
claim is brought up, I think they can be prosecuted under RICO.
Wish I could just make my regular linux box
be a PVR.
Tivo is too new on the scene to be arrogant enough to create this kind of PR. And the
messages from the Tivo spokesman only confirm
that they do mean to be assholes about the whole
thing.
Peasants, please storm their castle.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Windows
1. Asus Digital VCR
2. Cyberlink PowerVCR II - My favorite.
3. ATI Raedon Digital VCR
Some Unix ones I found.
1. WebVCR - needs Video4Linux
2. vcr - needs Video4Linux
3. FFMpeg - Comes with a software vcr
AC, please post a link directly to an AVS forum message where TiVolutionary claims to be the CEO.
www.snapstream.com
There is no linux version at present, but they are open to suggestion.
I use it on my windows box. Does the trick!
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
The problem is that TiVo's technology is only mildly interesting (though patented...)
What is really grabbing people about the TiVo is the combination of their technology with their centralized database of show times and preferences data. As digital VCRs go, the TiVo is only very cool. What makes it kick-ass is the ability to say "record everything directed by Hitchcock," or "record my favorite show whenever it happens to be on, but only the first-run showings."
In order to do this, you would have to have a quality source of guide data....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
Compainies do this kind of thing because many people are sheep and will actually fall for bogus claims of "reserved rights" and disclaimers for things that can't legally be disclaimed. The people who belive this garbage are throwing away their rights by being dumb enough to believe that those rights don't exist, simply because A Big Corporation told them so.
My advice: Don't be one of the sheep.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
I'd like to post an alternative point of view to the prevailing view here.
/.).
First, allow me to establish my credentials. I am a long-time Linux hacker, an engineer, and a strong believer in freedom. I'm also the owner of a DirectTivo unit.
Now, when I purchased the DTV I knew that it would not function without two subscriptions: the DirectTV subscription and the Tivo subscription. Never the less, I bought it, and paid the price for a lifetime Tivo subscription.
The Tivo docs very clearly tell you that a Tivo without a subscription will be much less useful than one with a subscription. Tivo makes their money on the subscriptions, not the hardware (a common sight here on
Now, while I agree that it wasn't nice of Tivo to downgrade the functionality of the units in the fashion they did, their primary focus is the folks the get money from, i.e. subscribers. If this guy wanted to do things on the cheap, he should accept the responsibility for his descision.
If I buy a cell phone, it is next to useless without a service subscription of some sort. If I buy a wireline phone, it is a paperweight without a service plan from my local telco. My DSL does me no good if there's not a DSLAM at the other end of the line. We buy things that need subscriptions all the time. You should go into those purchases with your eyes wide open.
This guy didn't.
www.eFax.com are spammers
that would give TiVO-like video recording functionality (live pause, etc.), using a commodity PC with fast HDs, and video in, but without being hobbled to a subscription service? Hmmm...
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Excellent post. Should be modded up. Well, unless your bullshitting of course, I don't know enough to be sure but it doesn't look like you are to me. ;)
Gotta say Tivo just lost a customer though. I had been thinking about buying one for awhile, had it budgeted for next month. But a bullshit move like this... *sigh*. I don't even care if it is possible to hack the thing back into shape. First off that probably wouldn't be true of one I bought next month, since it will probably come with the new "improved" software only, but more importantly, this is just a total disrespect of the customer and of basic concepts of fairness and decency, not to mention the law. They sold these things. They didn't lease them. Modifying the software like this... well it is illegal and immoral and a damn good sign this company is not one that I want to give any money. I hope they get sued. Better yet, criminal charges should be filed. Seriously. I believe there is a federal law in the US now that makes it a rather serious criminal offense to gain unauthorised access to a computer, and an additional offense to use that access to remove or obstruct capabilities/functions etc of that computer, interfering with its legitimate use... well it's late and I didn't phrase that well, and of course IANAL, but if I owned a Tivo I'd be talking to one. Sadly with our current legal regime in the US, suing them would be an uphill battle, so it probably won't happen unless one of the pissed off customers happens to be rich. Maybe a class action suit? I don't know... but this is definately wrong.
Considering how great Tivo has been on some issues in the past, maybe they will reverse their error. Maybe we shouldn't all just suddenly decide they are evil because of one mistake. Ok not maybe, certainly. Mistakes are made, it's only human. The key will be how they respond in the next few days though. If they stand by this illegal cracking of boxes (it deserves emphasis) that they do NOT own against the owners wishes though, there is simply no excuse for that. On the other hand, maybe someone at Tivo with a little power will pull their head out of the orifice it's jammed in and we will see an apology. Maybe they will fix the damage their little cracking expedition has caused. If so, I urge the victims to forgive them. If not... I say crucify the bastards.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Excellent. Reminds me of the Windows/Office XP registration bogosity, where you have to get permission from MSFT to continue running the software you (most likely) paid for if you ever upgrade your motherboard or hard drive, or if BillG just feels like making you say "Uncle."
This momentous event has inspired me to coin a neologism (note 1) describing software or hardware products whose vendors exercise an inappropriate, unwarranted, and unsolicited degree of remote control over its post-purchase operation:
Tetherware.
Google doesn't find any occurrences of the term on either WWW or Usenet, so I hereby claim all proprietary IP rights to the word "tetherware" and all variants thereof on an exclusive worldwide basis.
Happily, a license to propagate this meme is available for only $1 per use, payable via PayPal to jmiles@pop.net. Use of the term "tetherware," in public or private, without remittance of the license fee will result in the remote disabling of your personal communications apparatus via techniques previously employed by Vader et al., Imperial Business Software Alliance, c. 1977.
I've even come up with a tres trendy slogan for my new invention:
"Tetherware: Where do you want to be dragged kicking and screaming today?"
(Note 1: If you don't know what a "neologism" is, see http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?neologism and choose the meaning that most clearly applies.)
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
There's a $5000 damage requirement, but you get to aggregate that over all the victims.
And trying to use such an act to sell a service may be extortion.
Note that in this case, the user did not agree to some shrink-wrap license which might be said to justify the act. He didn't subscribe to the service.
Somebody with a TiVo and this problem should file a criminal complaint.
And Tivo offering to fix the problem if you complain isn't a defense for this crime.
He had to connect to the phone to set the clock, because Tivo wouldn't let him manually set it. While connected to the phone, the unit called "home" in the middle of the night, and downloaded a new OS -- one that removed features that had existed previously, features that he had paid for.
When he bought the product he made a choice to trade a certain amount of money for certain features. Tivo, after the fact, disabled some of those features. He didn't get to unilaterally retract some of the money he paid them after they delivered his Tivo, did he? Why should they be able to unilaterally retract features?
"They're a business" is not an answer. Busineses don't get special treatment under contract law. They're just parties, like individuals are.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
No. If you try to reverse engineer them but find out that the protocol is encrypted, you just violated the DMCA because you published your results on a site accessible to United States viewers. Sorry.
Will I retire or break 10K?
- TiVo is losing money. For last year they posted a 100 million dollar loss. Their income was only 3 million dollars.
- TiVo PAYS Sony and RCA to manufacture the boxes. Yes, that's right. It's not the other way around. TiVo actually has to subsidize the cost of manufacturing the boxes.
- The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
Hopefully TiVo won't continue to make the boxes less and less functional, since they might soon be out of business.Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
Sheesh. How we can complain about people taking away our rights when we seem willing to abdicate them ourselves?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
From the ads I've seen, TiVo created that impression quite deliberately. As such, they should have factored the expected cost of non-subscribers into the cost of the machine. Also, through malice or incompetence, they apparently designed software that can set the clock (officially) only through a dial-in. Therefore they are automatically tying non-subscribers to their network and are obligated to support them, too.
If TiVo doesn't want to deal with non-subscribers, then they should give a fix that allows core functionality of the machine (clock set, recording, etc.) without a connection. From then on, they can refuse all calls from non-subscribers justifiably and they can cease upgrading/fixing the software of non-subscribers.
Until then, whatever legal immunities they might have, they have a moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers.
The tie-in to service is why I hesitated from getting TiVo at all. I feel vindicated. You can be sure they will never get dollar one from me now.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Besides, with digital TV/HDTV you really do want to get the original MPEG2 stream instead of decoding it once, and then encoded again when you record. Any set-top boxers/satellite recievers with firewire out?
Unfortunately, the reason why you won't find any set-top boxes/receivers/etc. with Firewire output is because of our good friends at the MPAA. They won't allow it -- unencrypted digital video signals are their enemy because they "encourage piracy."
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DOOR!!
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
How hard do you all think it would be to emulate their servers? Intercepting the phone call would be dead easy. Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
SSL Certificate
but he also agreed to subscribe to the Tivo service.
Um no he didnt. The article, and many responses clearly state that the TiVo advertisied the service as optional. He signed nothing when he exchanged money for the cardboard box containing his PVR. If he had signed a contract - like you do when you sign up for phone service and receive a 'free' or 'discounted' cell phone (ex $29 per month * 3 years = free phone).
You are off base here - he most certainly did *NOT* agree to pay for the service. They have broken the unit he paid for. Like the other poster described, X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. Simple. I hope someone sues/charges these people - this is extortion... and yet another example of corporate hubris.
Tivo is fully justified in taking away any feature they want: YOU have broken the contract, not them.Completely wrong.
Now, you might not think that's a good way to do business,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
but consider that Tivo doesn't make a single dime from the unit sales,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
their model is entirely software/service driven.
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
Therefore, I think it's completely fine for them to disable their software for people who violate the service contract they agreed to when purchasing the unit.
They have broken his unit. He did not agree to any contract. TiVo should be charged criminally for vandalism, extortion, bait-and-switch, false advertising, contract violation, etc etc.
You don't like it? Fine, buy the Philips or Sony unit and write all the PVR functionality yourself.
Why? Again, the citizen::business relationship: X,Y,Z Features in some thing for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
don't buy the unit if you don't agree to the terms.
.... need me to repeat the way this works - again?
Did you read the article? You really couldnt be *more* 'off-base'.
RTFL. Or at least RTFL more carefully. He didn't have it dial in because he was too lazy to set the clock himself. He had it dial in because he couldn't set the clock himself. TiVo doesn't let you set the clock on your own. You have to dial in! If it weren't for this one little camel's nose under the edge of the tent, he wouldn't have had it dial in.
At this point, I'm glad I never got around to getting one of these things. This, plus the other thing I've heard they've tried (putting a commercial on the screen during pause) shows that they care more about money than their customers.
I'll wait for a more "open" solution.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Now you could maybe argue that TiVo's engineers should have accounted for that case and fallen back to the old behavior so as to not break their legacy non-subscriber users. But you know, as someone who wants his TiVo service to keep running as long as possible, I can't work up all that much enthusiasm for the idea of TiVo spending engineering and QA resources supporting customers who're costing them money (they were losing money on every unit sold for a while, maybe still are, and making it back in subscription fees).
Then again, the idea of using a TiVo without the program guide is strange to me to begin with, so clearly I just don't get it. The guide is one of the nicest things about the unit; I have stopped knowing or caring exactly when most of the shows I watch are downloaded to its disk, and network schedule shuffling doesn't mess me up unless it's so last-minute that the listing service doesn't get notified. If you want to manually set your record timers, a VCR is cheaper.
Frankly, I consider the fact that the unit works at all without the service to be an unexpected bonus; the box was clearly designed and intended to be used with the service, and doing otherwise, it seems to me, is just asking for this kind of thing to happen over time.