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TiVo Upgrade Isn't
creff writes: "TiVo's new software, version 2.0, disables features on recorders that do not have a subscription to their service. I would like to pose the question of ethics and legality of this move to the slashdot readers. Do they have the right to modify an item that you own? I don't remember clicking on any EULA..." Another reader submitted a long thread about this "upgrade".
I am a Tivo owner and just wanted to point out to any who are interested that the upgrade is incredible. There are a ton of new features, most notably the season pass manager which allows you to prioritize shows so that conflicts will be automatically in the event of two shows being on simultaneously. In general, the interface is great, there are tons of options, and Tivo has totally changed the way I watch television. I can't recommend it enough, if you haven't seen it working go find someone who has it and check it out. I don't work for Tivo, I am just a very satisfied customer. I bought my Tivo for about $1000 when the first were coming out (the 30 hour model) and shelled out $250 or so for the lifetime subscription (which apparently only goes along with my unit, don't know if they offer that anymore) but I don't regret one cent of that. I've had the thing for well over a year now and I've never had a single problem with it, and many of my friends who have seen it have gone out and bought one just because they didn't like going back to regular TV after seeing Tivo. Anyway, wave of the future man, check it out. Tivo rocks my world. Everyone at Tivo, keep up the great work.
get into a tivosh set db [dbopen] trans { set setup [db $db open /Setup]
dbobj $setup set ServiceState 3
}
dbclose $db
Then disconnect your tivo from the phone line.
I have a Hauppague (sp) WinTV PVR, which is designed as a video recorder. They only support win9x at the moment, with a beta Win2k driver.
The supplied software isn't too bad, but it lacks decent scheduling.
Viewing and simple recording works under linux, but it's onboard mpeg2 compression chip isn't supported in it's current configuration.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
It would be great, you know, if open source evangelism really worked. If "Open Source" became a feature that ordinary consumers looked for, along with Total Harmonic Distortion and Size in Cubic Feet. Without that level of penetration into the brains of the masses out there, I'm afraid that we advocates are left holding the bag. We are "locked in" to a religion that isn't taking hold.
The parent is one such example. There is no open source video recorder with the features of Tivo, and as long as there's Tivo, there probably won't be an open source version. Developers are motivated by laziness, impatience and hubris; and as long as Tivo is "close enough", they will be lazy and impatient (why spend a year developing when we can just buy one), and hubris doesn't apply when you are developing for an audience that doesn't want what you've got.
As a result, more hackers are hacking Tivo than are trying to develop an alternative. And those people wanting a religion instead of a platform are left holding the bag. It's no use telling Tivo users "I told you so" without having an open source alternative in hand; if the open source religion says "it's Tivo or nothing" I'm afraid there will be very few converts.
So Tivo made a mistake and sold a bunch of early units without explicitly requiring the subscription. I imagine they didn't think anyone would NOT get the subscription, but they also didn't anticipate hackers opening the boxes and sharing workarounds for people to avoid paying to upgrade the hardware, either -- something the "closed source" companies don't have to worry about. And now, not making any money, trying to stop the bleeding, they've assumed that anyone actually using their services is actually trying to use their services. How rude of them!
It's doubly ironic that one of the only alternatives is Microsoft. If Tivo dies, we'll all be running WebTV, you know. Or is that what you want?
First point I'm not going to argue, particularly. I'm going to stand by my assertion that the AVERAGE Tivo purchaser plans to buy the service, and saying that everyman actually takes a minute to make the choice whether to buy the service is silly.
Second point: Incorrect. The Tivo clock can be set via NTP from any server. Alleging that Tivo has some monopoly on NTP is silly. And again, I maintain that if you want to use the device in an unsupported way, Tivo has no obligation to be your NTP server. If you choose to connect to their network for NTP, you also should accept the consequences, the "AUP" of their network. If you don't understand the implications of dialing into Tivo's network to set your clock, you probably shouldn't be trying to use the Tivo device without a subscription. You can't have it both ways.
As to the lifetime subscription: I continue to say that if your Tivo unit and Tivo itself last more than two years -- a pretty good bet as best I can tell -- it's a good deal. YMMV. Caveat Tivor.
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I really don't have much sympathy -- even if you don't want to pay for the guide data, plugging the thing into the wall to use Tivo's dialup to access Tivo's network to sync to Tivo's NTP servers means you're using their service and therefore are going to get the upgrades and other such things, and rightly so. If you don't want to take part in the Tivo process, don't plug it into the phone jack -- Tivo doesn't owe you a free clock sync if you're not paying them to use their network.
That aside, there's a couple of options. One is that Tivo offers a 'lifetime' subscription to the guide data for a flat fee of $200. Sounds expensive, but just think of it as a full-featured Tivo for a one-time cost of $600.
Failing that, you still have your old 1.3 version on there in a separate partition. Tivo upgrades load the new OS onto an alternate root partition, then when it's successful, resets the boot sector to boot from the upgraded partition. The old one is still there, as the new 'alternate,' waiting for the next upgrade.
There's a holy MESS of information in the Tivo Hack FAQ (start at www.tivocommunity.com) about how to get a serial console on your Tivo box and change around your boot partitions as well as a bunch of other stuff. Unplug your Tivo from the wall so you don't get any MORE upgrades (therefore blowing away your 1.3), and start reading. You can get your 1.3 back, although there are all SORTS of caveats and readme's about doing a revert like that. Stop complaining and start reading and learning.
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That would mean that the Tivo itself is illegal under the DMCA, since it "decripts" a video signal producing a MPEG stream, and is marketed to the United States. Sorry, already violated, all bests are off the table.
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WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
I think about people like my uncle who buy something, figure they own it and if it quits working, they take it back. I didn't read the TiVO contract but it certainly does not sound like they make it abundantly clear that you would be forced to buy the expensive service later and that they would cripple the product if you didn't. Even if he couldn't return it, my uncle would put the damn thing back in it's box and stuff it up in the attic. Having been burnt, he wouldn't consider similar products in the future. I'm with him. I won't consider buying something like this and I'll be real quick to point out to others why they shouldn't either. Legal or not, it's dishonest.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
It would be very hard to prove that there was actual intent to do harm. Also, the computer is explicitly not protected from Tivo. They automatically have access to it if you hook up your phone cord.
more like... for those of you that didn't subscribe to the data that tells the car how to run properly, the car won't run properly. The tivo only records a half an hour because that's all it knows about programs if it doesn't have guide data. It works in half hour "chunks", unless it has the guide data that tells it that the program you're currently watching is longer than that.
:)
It's more akin to the "gps system" in your car not working correctly because you didn't buy the map data! Sure, it can tell you your exact latitude and longitude, but it would be nice if you could figure out what street you were on.
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Got a source for that? I'd be interested in reading the legal definition of "effective", in re access control. Obviously, eight bit is far from effective-- but so is the CSS (a lame version of a 40 bit system).
Calm down already, from TiVolutionary's response in the forum:
"For the record...
In our next release we are reinstating the use of the record button (the only thing that changed between 1.3 and 2.0.1 for customers who bought units that shipped with software prior to 2.0. We did not really mean to change that functionality. We do apologize for the inconvenience this caused for the time it takes to get the new software out.
In 2.5, with no service, on boxes that were purchased with a software release prior to 2.0, pressing the record button will record for 30 minutes, and then stop. Nothing else should change in the no-service-state."
Joseph Elwell.
Until then, whatever legal immunities they might have, they have a moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers.
Companies have no "moral obligations" - their only true obligation is to their shareholders, and their obligation to them is to make money.
I would agree that legally, they are required to make the unit function as advertized for all users, else they could face a false advertizing lawsuit.
Just my 2 bits =)
So the manual says:
It says that the service can be changed. But if I am not a subscriber, I don't use the service. In this case, they are changing my hardware. That I purchased. They can completely rewrite the service, and it should never effect someone who is not subscribed.This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U
Being heavily into the TiVo underground scene (tivo.lightn.org), I thought I'd share some information about the situation.
While I am generally a supporter of TiVo, I have to agree with this guy. TiVo stated that TiVos that upgraded from 1.3 to 2.0 would still be able to manually record shows (boxes that ship with 2.0 are limited to the 30 minute buffer period). While this was technically true, they certainly downgraded functionality that people paid for.
The one touch recording was supposedly removed because it was causing confusion since it would just automatically start recording that 30 min block. So it wasn't too useful to begin with, but certainly useful in certain situations.
I think the now playing changes are the most significant, as they represent a direct effort to remove functionality from 1.3 software.
The "nag screen" is not new. Few people on the avsforum new about it in the beginning when everyone subscribed, but when it came to people's attention, there was some heated debate, with me against TiVo. I never felt they gave an adequate responce to how having a nag screen makes the subscription to the service completely "optional."
The backdoor to the 1.3 software is known and the method to set the clock is also, although it is certainly not user friendly. Check tivo.samba.org (I think the input format is the same as the date command arguement).
Downgrading is impossible short of a complete backup of the Tivo harddrive. The database format and structure has changed and there is no easy way back. Although a lot of people did backups when they upgraded their tivo's hard drive. Just don't restore from an image from another brand or to a lesser version of software than the tivo shipped with! And some people are working on being able to do a complete drive setup on any sized disk from scratch.
There is a EULA in the manual, but I think it only applies when you subscribe to the service. The same debate about loss of functionality was made when people saw of the changes in 2.0 as negative (no matter how minor). The general consensus was that TiVo couldn't support multiple versions economically, so if you subscribed to the service you had to accept the changes in functionality that came with software upgrades. This situation is certainly less clear...
Also, it is general held that until recently (and maybe still), TiVo paid manufactures a certain amount of money for each box sold. And they certainly spend a lot to obtain each user (advertising money, check the financial reports). Most of their income comes from subscription fees. To some that just indicates a bad business model and they won't care, others might.
So when I bring my Ford Taurus in for servicing and the tech replaces one of the on board computers so that it shuts down the engine if any subsequent servicing is performed at any place other than a dealership....Well that's just my reward for ignoring the invisible free hand of commerce...
Please remember Einstein that AT&T was and IBM was nearly broken up for behavior like this - the hard coupling of hardware and service and software.
Yes, but much of the information is stored on a proprietary filesystem known as MFS (media file system). It's complicated by the fact the standard scripts only allow upgrades, not downgrades (hence why TiVo refused to reload the 1.3 software).
The proceedure for restoring the old software isn't easy, it's still on the disk but you need some means of accessing it. For those not familiar with the TiVO it goes something like this:
The tivo has a connector on the back for interfacing a DSS satellite system, with the addition of a null modem adapter a user can access the PROM menu and change configutation data like the kernel bootup params. The 1.3 startup scripts used to have a backdoor -- bash would be run if you added the variable shondss=true (sh on dss port) to the kernel commandline. Unfortunately that's one of the things they remove in the new software. Bugger.
Ok we'll boot the 1.3 root partition, just a change of root= right? nope. The UI is loaded on the MFS and the supporting applications on the root filesystem, mixing and matching them can cause real trouble. Ok, let's not start the UI, let's set 'runmyworld=false'.
So now we've altered the root=, added shondss=false and runmyworld=false and we finally have a bash prompt. What now? well now we have to remove the new version of the software via tivosh (a convoluted shell built around tcl).. I won't even get into that mess.
Oh.. one other thing, the database format used on the MFS partition has changed between 1.3 and 2.0. I'm not aware of how much has changed, it may only be portions used by the subscription in which case you could revert.
At any rate attempting to revert the softare would void your warranty and possibly screw up your tivo. Fun huh?
- MbM
- MbM
There are lots of people who would have
bought one of these things (like me) who
won't now (like me) because of this.
I hope it's way more than just a class-action
suit. I hope they broke some international law
by screwing up the Canadians, and have to pay
billions in fines or their CEO has to do hard time, or something like that. If the extortion
claim is brought up, I think they can be prosecuted under RICO.
Wish I could just make my regular linux box
be a PVR.
Tivo is too new on the scene to be arrogant enough to create this kind of PR. And the
messages from the Tivo spokesman only confirm
that they do mean to be assholes about the whole
thing.
Peasants, please storm their castle.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Windows
1. Asus Digital VCR
2. Cyberlink PowerVCR II - My favorite.
3. ATI Raedon Digital VCR
Some Unix ones I found.
1. WebVCR - needs Video4Linux
2. vcr - needs Video4Linux
3. FFMpeg - Comes with a software vcr
No, he could have set the clock himself, all he had to do was plug a serial line into the port on the back of the TiVo. I don't think that TiVo is obligated to provide you with a clock-setting feature, since you're obviously not interested in making the device function properly, because you're not using the service which usually accompanies the device.
It was ReplayTV that inserted the commercials during pause, not TiVo.
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When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. --Robert A. Heinlein
Sheesh. If you were seriously thinking about buying a TiVo without the subscription, then you are going to be wasting your money anyway.
Yes, unless you get the lifetime subscription, it is $10/month. Unless your time is worth nothing to you, then the it is well worth the price.
My TiVo has allowed me to watch what I want, when I want. I consider it to be one of my best purchase decisions... ever.
So instead of spending time bashing a product that you haven't really tried out, why don't you go talk to a friend that has one (and has the subscription)?
So much effort is spent by corporations to try to get me to buy things I don't want and I don't need. TiVo is one of the few companies that actually turns out a useful product and service.
So what if they messed up the features for people who don't have a subscription? Perhaps they made a mistake, perhaps it was intentional. It doesn't really matter to me and the other TiVo subscribers. If you bought the device thinking it would be greatly useful without the service then you were misled. Maybe they are to blame for that too.
AC, please post a link directly to an AVS forum message where TiVolutionary claims to be the CEO.
I dont see anyone bitching when someone builds a better birdhouse and it isnt what you think is better.
Are people going to complain BMW is infringing on their rights when they come out with a combined muffler-catalytic_convertor, that you have to replace as a large (read:expensive) single part...and this part will be standard issue for all future BMW's and you wont be able to buy the old part from BMW anymore? "But I used to be able to replace the muffler and convertor separately...and my dad says you used to be able to pull the platinum plate from the convertor so you didnt have to replace the whole convertor either."
BR It's rediculous to say that something you pay for is forever yours if it doesnt exist in a vacuum. You use their service, you know they can change your software, you live with that. Or you could always try to install an old catalytic convertor and muffler separately in the sanctuary of your own garage. Just dont let the smog guys test it.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
So why hasn't someone hacked the tvio to change what phone number it dials/use the serial port for updates, and write a simple server in perl to gather this information off of the net for free? it can't be that hard to do (I'd do it if I had a tvio and a subscription, but I refuse to have my tv viewing habits sold to every corperate peeping-tom that is willing to ante up for tvio-s peepshow.) This thing can be hacked/reverse engineered easily. Hell, someone already got an ethernet card stuffed into the thing.
Time to tell tvio that these units are OURS, and we are going to do with them what we damn well want to. (Note, some people will whine that we will be putting tvio out of business...wahh bla.. only the technically savvy will be avoiding the tvio tax and tactics.... the normal drone (90% of their customer base) doesn't have the brain-power to set up a linux box, let alone open a tvio and sucessfully hack it.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Pretty retarted example there, Here's a better one.
Would you be happy if BMW, on a "free safety check" at the dealer, removed your tachometer and the FM radio band from your radio? you'd be screaming bloody murder and looking for heads. In your screaming you find out that this only happens to people who dont pay for the extra protection coverage package that includes the on-star (Or whatever company you use) monthly fees.
But this is EXACTLY what tvio did. They removed features from the unit that were there at the time of sale. If you are sold something and then get something that is not what you sold them, then the US govt will force you to pay restitution or make it right. HP had to give thousands of US customers all their money back on the HP Journada 420 because the display wasn't a true 16 bit display (it was 12 bit) and 99% of all these customers couldn't tell the difference. TVIO just removed features that many people noticed right away, and I smell a class action lawsuit coming...... and TVIO will lose if it comes to it.
So sorry, TVIO effectively entered the customers homes and stole property, until they return it and apologize they are liable.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Then buy a DirecTivo and get lifetime TiVo service for $249. It'll run you $650 or so, but it's not such a bad deal for (effectively) two DirecTV receivers and two VCR's in one box... (No, you can't use the second tuner yet, but it will be enabled this summer.)
Don't buy UltimateTV; they don't have a lifetime service option and you'll be paying monthly fees to them forever.
Deven
"Simple things should be simple, and complex things should be possible." - Alan Kay
SO how does this releate to TIVO? Simple once you buy the TIVO, the VCR, the video disk, the cassette tape, the cdrom, or whatever you are basically agreeing by your usage of the item to biug business telling you what to do with it. This happens in the record industry (napster, you can't trade what you own), AT&T Cable, I can't filter out the ads in the tv guide, TIVO you are stuck with their upgrade. This is the same as if your ISP changed its policy on how it billsyou. Your only repercussion would be to stop using the device.
This is the new age of big business doing what it wants and screw the consumer.. didn't you know that? Microsoft is growing and growing, AOL is too, AT&T.. PG&E in CA is getting what they want.. and do you know who has to pay the most? The residential customers... who pays the least... other companies (Oh and if you don't know what I am talking about think energy crisys in ca)..
Yeah this may be slighly off topic, but tivo is just another company that thinks it can screw the user just like any other big company....
I don't want a lot, I just want it all!
Flame away, I have a hose!
Only 'flamers' flame!
He bought a product that runs a cron script (or something like that) that connects to the Tivo servers and does things, which includes downloading updates. He knew that the product does this.
If your box connects to my server on a regular basis and request software and then downloads and executes it, and you even know that your box does this, then the "without authorization" condition has just gone out the window.
Secondly, most of the changes don't qualify as "intentionally causes damages", although I think the nag-when-switching-channels is pretty intentional. The other changes (e.g. not showing the manual record times) are just user interface mods where the "damage" to non-subscribers might just be unforseen.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
DMCA doesn't outlaw all RE where encryption is involved. It outlaws RE where encryption "effectively controls access" to a copyrighted work.
In the context of writing a Tivo server emulator, what copyrighted works are protected here? Packets of usage statistics that were generated by the Tivo? The time of day, generated by the server? Get real.
DMCA does not prevent writing a Tivo server.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
www.snapstream.com
There is no linux version at present, but they are open to suggestion.
I use it on my windows box. Does the trick!
The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
don't you have to sign a contract to make it legally binding?
No. That's a basic principle of contract law. As long as the four elements of a contract exist, (a meeting of the minds or an agreement, consideration, mutual performance and an offer an acceptance) there is a contract. An example would be if your neighbor says that he would pay you $1,000 if you mowed his lawn and you got out your lawn mower and cut his grass, there would be a legally enforcable contract even though you signed no paper. There was an agreement (as to the work and the consideration), consideration ($1,000), mutual performance (each side has a responsibility to fufill -- you cut, him pay $1,000) and offer and acceptance (your behavior in performing the requested work is evidence of acceptance).
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
It's a module. Linus has specifically allowed the distribution and use of closed source, binary kernel modules.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
I'm working on this exact thing at the moment-- I've managed to get xawtv to display output from my cheapo hauppage winTV capture card, so that's a start.
.wav file for audio. Supposedly it integrates with mpeg2encode for realtime encoding straight to mpeg, but the docs don't describe what I would need to do to make bttvgrab aware of my mpeg2encode installation. If I can't make the realtime coder work, then I will do scheduled post-encoding. The problem then means I have to figure out how to multiplex the audio and video back together, something else I'm not sure how to do with most of the encoders. (again, mpeg2encode seems to do it, but I'll be darned if I've made sense of that program's 10 million config options yet...)
VCR looks like a good way to go (and WebVCR is just a frontend to VCR) but it requires the avifile libraries, which are located on http://divx.euro.ru/ , a site which gives me a whopping 28 bytes per second. I've been trying for WEEKS to download the avifile libraries I would need to use VCR, but to no avail. I can't find a mirror, either-- if anybody's got one, post away!!!!
FAME looks good to-- it takes video4linux output and uses an assembly encoder to make short work of compressing it. This could be run via cron, if only I could get it to compile on my Mandrake 8.0 install.
FFMpeg, SAMPEG, and MPEG2Encode all have promise, too, but again, one problem or another is keeping me from getting them to run. MPEG2Encode is compiled and appears to be working, but it has to be the most complicated encoder I've ever used in my life. If anyone has a good sample config file handy for NTSC VCD and SVCD bitrate encoding with MPEG2Encode, let me know.
And lastly, bttvgrab is working too, but it dumps to a wacky format (.pmm?) and a separate
So, in short, there are nearly a dozen programs for linux to do exactly this, but like everything else fun with linux, putting it all together is going to be a challenge. Anybody with more information, please post!!!!!!
That would be true, IF this was only a matter of what the service permitted.
This actually disabled *features* of the TiVO you purchased, and has nothing to do with the 'services' you get through subscription (listings, etc).
The box, all by itself, now does LESS than it did BEFORE, all by itself.
That's gotta be illegal.
I really don't care what TiVo expected people to do. They sold a product that (as advertised) would work without a subscription. They're later going back and crippling that product, so that it no-longer works without subscription.
That's bait and switch, and is illegal. Plain and simple.
As a side note, I see great value in a tivo without listings, it's a VCR, except higher quality and of larger capacity. They advertised it as such, but with more features as well. I currently use a VCR, so a digital VCR would be a great purchase.
Now, as for poor TiVo, who we're supposed to feel so sorry for... Tough.
As a programmer I'm still supporting much of my early work. It needs more bugfixing and I negotiated worse contracts (less pay for fixing those bugs). But I *can't* ignore those unprofitable contracts. I entered into them honestly, they are the stepping stones that got me where I am today, and I'm legally and morally obligated to continue doing what I contracted to do.
I may not understand why some of my customers still prefer to use software I wrote in the late 80s, but I didn't sell it to them with a time limit, they're free to do what they will do.
So, understandably, I have little sympathy for TiVo. They're where they are today because they sold a ton of units, many to people who simply wanted a digital VCR. It is NOT acceptable to hang those customers out to dry now.
Especially since, if they wanted to have them stop calling in, they could simply allow for manual setting of the time and remove the nag screens, then people could happily use their units in the manner they intended, without any phone calls or future software updates.
This is actually worse than I stated, TiVo didn't just ignore old customers, they deliberately went out of their way to disable those old units that were functioning correctly.
And they act as if it's the customers fault, for buying a product and expecting it to work as advertised.
Companies have the same moral obligations as the shareholders. And vice versa.
This whole limited-liability bullshit has gone too far. Many people would be perfectly happy buying stock in a company that contracted killings for the mob, as long as they wouldn't be held liable and as long as they thought it was profitable.
Explain why customers, who can't buy a senator and get a law passed, should follow the laws that companies buy. Law and the society it enables are based on the expectation of fairness, the law is blind and all that. If the law works in your favour, why would I follow it?
This is made worse by companies with 'no moral obligation' in the eyes of their stockholders corrupting our legal system for a quick buck.
They clearly did NOT (note, past tense) that the service was required. That's a recent change. Customers who bought original units were assured they'd work without the service - they even sold to people in Canada and other unsupported areas, which should prove that they intended this.
TiVo units contain a hardware bug where they lose time at aproximately a minute per month, there is no way to set this except by dialing in, which was allowed even for unsubscribed people.
The unit is broken (bad clock) and short of a recall, the best bet is to have them automatically update the time frequently. This is TiVos fault and their fiscal responsibility, imho.
As for this whole idiotic business model of selling for a los... It's TiVo's choice to do so, and it's their choice to require a contract or not. They didn't require a contract for services in the beginning, so people fairly bought those units wanting only the hardware.
The law only insists that each side in a contract get something, not that it ends up being profitable for both parties.
Would you accept it if you bought a P3-1Ghz with 1GB of RAM and 150GB of drive space for $1200, then had the company give you a P2-500 with 64MB because "you should have known that is was unreasonable to expect that much for that price" and that when you complained they told you to quit whining, or they'd disable the computer all-together?
So they made a deal that wasn't terribly profitable, they'll do better next time, or someone else will. Not my problem.
I know you're just answering the "do I need to sign" but what you just said shows that shrink-wrap contracts aren't valid...
1) There's no meeting of minds because this implies knowledge beforehand.
2) There's no consideration. They aren't legally entitled to prevent you from using the software, so they can't offer it to you.
As soon as you buy something, you've got 100% rights to use it in any way it was advertised, or a reasonable person would believe it should be usable. (to paraphrase the law)
Exelent. So when I sell you a pack of gum that has a license inside that lets me break into your house to take a piece whenever I want, is that ok?
I mean, im within my rights if I decide that you initally paid to little for the pack of gum, and I want to remove 5 sticks by your logic.
I figure youre a troll, but what the hell. Trolls like gum.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
What value added? People don't have to pay $10/month for their VCRs to work because the embedded firmware "adds value" to the otherwise useless hardware - the software is part of the product itself.
As you pointed out, people DO already pay for the internet, where the TV guide information they want is freely available... so why should they ALSO have to pay Tivo?
I predict Tivo willl fall by the wayside unless it changes, and the winner will be a PVR that simply connects to your ISP (dial-up or broadband via ethernet port) and gets the information for free, or maybe one that doesn't even need it to provide most of what people want - TV pause/resume/skip and manual programming (just tell it the show channel/time, and it'll record it forever until you tell it to stop).
The serial cable is only an option for hackers. From reading the AVS forum I thought the problem was that people were just doing a call (or is a "test call" different?) to get the date, but then - without being a subscriber - they were getting the 2.0 software automatically and then losing functionality (although I guess they allowed it to continue downloading because they thought they were getting something for free).
From reading this, it seems that he just bought the thing. (Sort of... it's not entirely clear.)
If it was still within the n-days return period, I say take it back, complain it doesn't work as advertised. Then buy another one if you still feel like it.
THEN (now that you've learned your lesson), do some of the hacks described, and don't plug it into the evil phone line.
Personally, my view of Tivo, Inc. just went WAY down. They just scored a major win with the award of their patents, they're inches away from smacking Microsoft & Ultimate TV with an ugly stick... and they still feel they need to do this to their customers?
Bad Tivo. (Whack!) No stock options for you! Go sit in the corner until you learn to play nice!
(Still, just to be fair... didn't UltimateTV do some silliness like inserting ads while you're fast-forwarding? This was a change from out-of-box functionality... but not nearly as invasive as what Tivo has done!)
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
I have absolutely no interest in paying a subscription fee for a directory service.
A "directory" is not sufficient. What TiVo provides is a database which combines show times, actors and directors involved (so you can record, e.g. "all Hitchcock movies"), user preferences and feedback and some interactive TV tie-ins (e.g. you can hit select during promotions for upcoming shows to select them for recordng).
I would really like a stand-along digital recorder that would record the raw MPEG-2 video/audio stream from a DirecTV receiver. I am willing to pay $500 for such a device, but I'm not willing to pay $15 (or more) each month just to use it.
TiVo costs $600 for unit plus lifetime subscription (lifetime of that unit, that is). A friend of mine said, "buy a TiVo, it will change your life." I said he was being silly. It's only TV after all. I hate to sound like the SNL skit about the mentalist on broadway, but buy a TiVo. It will change your life.
The features just keep getting better too. You can now start watching something, decide half-way through that you want to record it, and because TiVo has a half-hour buffer, you get the WHOLE THING. You can set priorities on season passes so that if they conflict, the conflicts are resolved according to your tastes. It's just too cool.
As I tell my friends: I don't watch TV anymore. My TiVo does it for me.
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
I don't have a TiVo (and now, never will)
Nothing personal, but this is the one aspect of Slashdot that I truely hate: the negative rumormongering.
As someone else pointed out in this thread, the TiVo folks have acknowledged this one as a bug, and are turning the feature back on in an update. It's a result of the addition of one of the most asked for features: saving the live-TV buffer when recording a program on the fly.
Note timed recording still worked just fine for non-subscription TiVos....
so perhaps I don't understand what "guide data" is. If it's essentially just TV listings, well, free sites for that abound on the Net. yahooTV, for one.
Sure, you can use those. It will be hard to split out the detailed information like actors and directors, but you could hit IMDB for that. The only thing you don't get is the database of user feedback for each of those programs. This is not just a rating system, but a personalized rating system. Thus, the TiVo can look at what you like and say: aha! You're going to like "Slashdot: The Motion Picture" too. And, then it will record it for you, if you have free space.
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
Even if this was a fluke, it shows me the danger inherent in becoming too used to any service over which I don't have control. As far as possible I avoid that, and so, TiVo is still out for me.
But that doesn't make any sense. Like TiVo, don't like TiVo -- I could care less, but the whole concern is over TiVo updating your box so that standalone features broke.
It's like saying that your VCR manufacturer gave you a prom-update that broke the VCR for people who don't use the prom-updates.
You only care if you sign up for the service, and then drop it. Given that the way to go with TiVo is to sign up for the lifetime membership, why the heck is this a concern?!
The only possible concern would be that you use their service and then they drop their privacy policy on the floor AND remove the opt-out features on the box AND you care (which I would). If that's your concern I suggest you buy a TiVo+service and don't throw away your VCR. Works for me....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
The problem is that TiVo's technology is only mildly interesting (though patented...)
What is really grabbing people about the TiVo is the combination of their technology with their centralized database of show times and preferences data. As digital VCRs go, the TiVo is only very cool. What makes it kick-ass is the ability to say "record everything directed by Hitchcock," or "record my favorite show whenever it happens to be on, but only the first-run showings."
In order to do this, you would have to have a quality source of guide data....
--
Aaron Sherman (ajs@ajs.com)
--
Compainies do this kind of thing because many people are sheep and will actually fall for bogus claims of "reserved rights" and disclaimers for things that can't legally be disclaimed. The people who belive this garbage are throwing away their rights by being dumb enough to believe that those rights don't exist, simply because A Big Corporation told them so.
My advice: Don't be one of the sheep.
Easy, automatic testing for Perl.
Looks like the word "protected" will let Tivo an easy way out. They could argue that if the user really was concerned about the integrity of his Tivo, he could easily have "protected" it by not plugging in the phone jack. He wasn't using their service after all, so then why would he need to be connected to the phone at all?
I don't believe you had to purchase the service at all. If you look in the forums I think you will see this happening to many people who have no subscription AT ALL ('unsubbed'). The ONLY thing they have done is make the "test call" to set their clocks on the unit because there is no way to do that manually. Sure you could blame them for buying a piece of equipment that only allows you to set the clock by making a call to the company...but that's really a stretch. That's almost entrapment. How should I know that just making a test call is going to result in *software being downloaded and installed* on my machine? Consumer's shouldn't have to be always on edge wondering if every little feature of something can potentially be used to scam them in the future.
"Batteries...sure, use any type you like. (BUT THEY'LL BLOW UP CAUSING YOU TO HAVE TO BUY A NEW UNIT HAHAHAHAHAHAHA)"
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
What kind of specs are available for the TiVo hardware, anyway?
------
Ditto.
Next project: Spend some time checking out the status of Linux drivers for my ATI All-in-Wonder-128 32M card.
And if that doesn't give me any love, install Windoze Scripting Host and goof around with VB for a weekend using the bundled software. I can capture and encode MPEG2 video in real time when the box is suitably overclocked. All that's missing is a 30G hard drive and a user interface.
A little bit of Perl (yeah, it'll run in a Windoze console too!) and a suitable lynx -dump to and I've got my TV listings.
The one touch recording depends on you having guide data.
When your subscription runs out, a message will appear saying "hey, your subscription ran out!". This will appear for ~1 month if I remember right. During this time the tivo still functions and is downloading guide data.
After the month, the TiVo goes into boat anchor mode (ie: the unit is pretty useless; always has been, always will be when in this mode). It stops updating guide data and other related information until the subscription is removed.
After about two weeks your guide data will run out. So what's the point in having the recording function work when it's going to stop working in 2 weeks anyway?
Before you could record a half hour while watching tv. You can no longer do this. Whoppie do. Somehow I fail to see the severity of this loss.
You can still have manual recordings for an arbitrary length on arbitrary channels.
Because the market is letting them. The consumer base has spoken with their dollars, and they've said that this sort of setup works just great for them.
If change is to come, it needs to come in the form of an alternative that consumers like better, or for the consumer base to decide that this sort of scheme makes the product worth less than what they paid -- and they'll abandon the idea wholesale.
When you sell to non-geeks, geek concerns fall by the wayside. Geeks are still a minority (and probably always will be).
So, the difference between a software upgrade and a virus would be.... what... something you want vs. something you don't want?
That's like saying that the definition of a 'weed' is a plant that grows where you DON'T want it to.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
- it will probably come with the new "improved" software only
Correct. All the new units should come with 2.0 on them. And they certainly will not work without a subscription.- they sold these things.
Actually, Philips, Sony, and Hughes sell the hardware. TiVo sells the software (aka "the service".) Pay attention to the name of the product... "Philips Personal Video Recorder with TiVo Service" You own the hardware, but you do not own the software on the drive (or any of the content of MFS -- backgrounds, fonts, sounds, etc.) TiVo is well within their legal rights to do what ever they want to the software. Please keep in mind this nut left it plugged into the phone line calling into UUNet and thus costing TiVo money while paying nothing. - ... gain unauthorised access
...
Right. First, the TiVo is not a "computer" in that sense. Second, how can it be claimed to be unauthorized access when it called tivo and did exactly what it was designed to do (and likely had done before)? He plugged it into the phone line knowing it's going to call TiVo everyday. Unsubscribed units do get upgrades -- though they will be the last to get it. And if he bothered to look, you certainly can set the date manually.This is not a mistake. It's not an accident. The 2.0 software was intentionaly designed to be a pain in the ass without a subscription. TiVo doesn't make anything off the sale of the hardware -- they sell the "with TiVo Service" part. Everyone of those boxes will try to call TiVo everyday (if it cannot call in for several days, a watchdog reboots the box) either via the 800# -- which costs tivo in the neighborhood of 5 to 7 cents a minute -- or by a local UUNet modem pool which certainly costs TiVo money. They are not likely to change their stance on this. They are also moving to make it harder and harder for people to hack the hardware -- a PROM with a crypto signature on the kernel + initrd image, an initrd image with copies of core files which it will replace if changed, no more "shondss", etc.
And, the TiVo is much more than a TV listing as found "in the Sunday paper." (Last time I checked, the sunday paper was far from free.)
But if he was not a subscriber, then why did he use their service to set his unit's clock?
Furthurmore, you have totally missed the point of my post. Let me try again:
I go down to the local DratShack and buy a new phone. The PFY behind the counter tries to sell me a service plan.
Me: No, I do not wish a service plan. I just want a phone.
PFY: But without a service plan, you cannot place nor receive calls.
Me: I'm too cheap to pay for a service plan. I want to be able to call 911, for which the phone does not need to have a service plan. Furthurmore, when I go on trips, I will buy a cheap prepaid phone card so that I may place calls during my trip.
PFY: OK, but you might not be able to get firmware updates without a service plan.
Me: Over-the-air updates don't bother me. Sell me the damn phone!
PFY: OK, but this could bite you.
Now, other than the obvious fact that this account is fictional (the PFY knows far too much to be working at DratShack), this is exactly what this gentleman did: he tried to buy on the cheap, and the Tivo docs quite plainly tell you that without service, your Tivo's functionality is greatly reduced.
Just as an unregistered phone might stop working at any time, an unsubscribe Tivo might stop working at any time. If that is unacceptable to you, then either buy a subscription, don't buy the unit, or accept the consiquences of your actions.
www.eFax.com are spammers
I'd like to post an alternative point of view to the prevailing view here.
/.).
First, allow me to establish my credentials. I am a long-time Linux hacker, an engineer, and a strong believer in freedom. I'm also the owner of a DirectTivo unit.
Now, when I purchased the DTV I knew that it would not function without two subscriptions: the DirectTV subscription and the Tivo subscription. Never the less, I bought it, and paid the price for a lifetime Tivo subscription.
The Tivo docs very clearly tell you that a Tivo without a subscription will be much less useful than one with a subscription. Tivo makes their money on the subscriptions, not the hardware (a common sight here on
Now, while I agree that it wasn't nice of Tivo to downgrade the functionality of the units in the fashion they did, their primary focus is the folks the get money from, i.e. subscribers. If this guy wanted to do things on the cheap, he should accept the responsibility for his descision.
If I buy a cell phone, it is next to useless without a service subscription of some sort. If I buy a wireline phone, it is a paperweight without a service plan from my local telco. My DSL does me no good if there's not a DSLAM at the other end of the line. We buy things that need subscriptions all the time. You should go into those purchases with your eyes wide open.
This guy didn't.
www.eFax.com are spammers
This comparison, of course, assumes that Replay will be staying in business and not changing their service for the next year or two. Based on their recent struggles and business changes, that wouldn't be a solid bet.
I'm sorry, I have absolutely no sympathy for you people. TiVo is an excellent product, and I would never think twice about "tipping" the creators $10/month for DAILY updates of time data, guide data for 15 days in the future, and the feature-rich menus that involve rather in-depth program searching, down to actors names. The software will even pick programs for you based on your likes and dislikes! What more could you ask from this?
It is stated on every (at least Phillips) box with a large blue sticker that it "Requires subscription to the TiVo service" for full functionality. If you don't read the box, it's your own damn fault. It's like drinking weed killer because you didn't read the label to find out it was harmful to humans.
This post, and the other anti-TiVo posts here are disgraceful. They do NOT have a "moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers". Not at all! They clearly state both on the box and in BOTH manuals that you need the TiVo service! It's like bitching that you bought a cable modem but can't use it because it didn't clearly state you needed to have cable modem service with it. You just can't separate some things. And as far as morals go, the dealers and manufacturers sell TiVos at a loss, only to be reimbursed later in advertising and subscription money that TiVo brings in.
So the fact is, you can get TiVo without a subscription. It costs an extra $200 or so - just like the box SHOULD cost if the manufacturers were selling them with a standard mark-up. I have less than NO sympathy whatsoever for people that whine about this sort of thing. If you bitch about the money, you obviously have less than half a clue as to what goes into these things, and what it costs to keep them up-and-running with the full subset of features, not to mention the added features that are coming out every few months (like DirecTV dual tuners, coming summer 2000). Give it a rest.
As for the "can't justify spending $10 a month for program data that is free on the web and comes in the Sunday newspapers", I see once again evidence of idiocy. YOU PAY FOR THE NEWSPAPER. YOU PAY FOR WEB ACCESS. NOT FREE. Sure, these are certainly cheaper ways of getting that information - the Web access by virtue of you using it for many other things. But do either of them automatically integrate the program info with the tuner? Allow you to record by show title - not caring about the time and channel? Link the program descriptions with all your recordings so that you don't have to label everything? No. The $10 per month is for the value added service to that information - not the information itself. I certainly feel it is worth it, and have the lifetime subscription, so I have no monthly fee - I just have effectively paid as much for my TiVo as I would have for a Replay unit. Replay sucked.
Don't worry, there will soon be many plain digital recorders that don't have a service, but are just like a manual VCR with a hard drive instead of video tape - probably some models with integrated tape for archiving. There will be a need for the sub $400 market using digital recording. There will likely be a price war with the subscription units which will almost be given away to keep customers from going with the non-subscription units.
I'm also so sick of all the ragging on TiVo's $10/month by people not wanting to pay it who then went and bought Replay because it didn't have a monthly fee. These idiots don't realize that the extra they paid for the Replay could also have bought them the lifetime TiVo subscription.
This is nothing new. DirecTV has been sending down "updates" that kill unauthorized access cards for years now.
HackHu (www.hackhu.com) is a good site for info on DirecTV "update" news.
I think my Grandma would agree that sacrificing a little book time to keep up with news about the technology that got me a job paying more than anyone else in my family at the age of twenty-two is a good thing. :)
- If you add $250 to your budget, you'll have a lifetime subscription and all of these issues will be moot.
- TiVo generally has more features and is easier to use than Replay. If you browse the user forums for both devices, you'll see that Replay users ask for new features and changes much more than TiVo users do.
I bought a 60-hour TiVo from Phillips, and although I did spend a lot ($750 including subscription), the device is amazing. The software works great, it has lots of features (2.0 is way better than 1.3 in my opinion), and it's totally changed the way I watch TV (for the better, obviously).--
Lord Nimon
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
that would give TiVO-like video recording functionality (live pause, etc.), using a commodity PC with fast HDs, and video in, but without being hobbled to a subscription service? Hmmm...
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Nonsense. I've seen the ads, I know how these things were sold. Who sold them, whether the manufacturer or Tivo, is besides the point. The point being that the customers bought them and the customers own them. Including the bits on the hard drive, subject to normal copyright law restrictions (I own the books on my shelf, I can't copy or resell them but they still belong to me, not the author or publisher.) Tivo has no more right than my 13 year old neighbor to alter them without permission. Those customers (the majority) who subscribe to the service will have given them consent, but customers who bought it for it's stand-alone abilities only have given no such consent. Leaving it plugged into the phone line might well be described as bad judgement - but it was behaviour encouraged by Tivo who made it at least seem that this was the only way to set the clock. Plugging the phone line in no more gave Tivo consent to crack his box than my plugging a line into my personal computer gives you consent to crack it. Anyway, if the expense of providing NTP service to non-subscribers was a concern, they could have simply chosen to only provide it to subscribers (and perhaps even point out the obscure method necessary to set the clock manually.)
My point stands, this was a simple crack job, and if Tivo won't fix the mess they have made of other people's machines quickly and apologize for it profusely, they can and should find themselves facing both criminal charges and a class-action lawsuit.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Excellent post. Should be modded up. Well, unless your bullshitting of course, I don't know enough to be sure but it doesn't look like you are to me. ;)
Gotta say Tivo just lost a customer though. I had been thinking about buying one for awhile, had it budgeted for next month. But a bullshit move like this... *sigh*. I don't even care if it is possible to hack the thing back into shape. First off that probably wouldn't be true of one I bought next month, since it will probably come with the new "improved" software only, but more importantly, this is just a total disrespect of the customer and of basic concepts of fairness and decency, not to mention the law. They sold these things. They didn't lease them. Modifying the software like this... well it is illegal and immoral and a damn good sign this company is not one that I want to give any money. I hope they get sued. Better yet, criminal charges should be filed. Seriously. I believe there is a federal law in the US now that makes it a rather serious criminal offense to gain unauthorised access to a computer, and an additional offense to use that access to remove or obstruct capabilities/functions etc of that computer, interfering with its legitimate use... well it's late and I didn't phrase that well, and of course IANAL, but if I owned a Tivo I'd be talking to one. Sadly with our current legal regime in the US, suing them would be an uphill battle, so it probably won't happen unless one of the pissed off customers happens to be rich. Maybe a class action suit? I don't know... but this is definately wrong.
Considering how great Tivo has been on some issues in the past, maybe they will reverse their error. Maybe we shouldn't all just suddenly decide they are evil because of one mistake. Ok not maybe, certainly. Mistakes are made, it's only human. The key will be how they respond in the next few days though. If they stand by this illegal cracking of boxes (it deserves emphasis) that they do NOT own against the owners wishes though, there is simply no excuse for that. On the other hand, maybe someone at Tivo with a little power will pull their head out of the orifice it's jammed in and we will see an apology. Maybe they will fix the damage their little cracking expedition has caused. If so, I urge the victims to forgive them. If not... I say crucify the bastards.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Sounds like it would be a better idea to get hold of a GFX card with grabbar functions and write some good software for it.
Besides, with digital TV/HDTV you really do want to get the original MPEG2 stream instead of decoding it once, and then encoded again when you record. Any set-top boxers/satellite recievers with firewire out? ^_^
Hack your own future!
You could just as easily argue that by letting his Tivo call up and get the upgrade, he was pirating the Tivo software.
Excellent. Reminds me of the Windows/Office XP registration bogosity, where you have to get permission from MSFT to continue running the software you (most likely) paid for if you ever upgrade your motherboard or hard drive, or if BillG just feels like making you say "Uncle."
This momentous event has inspired me to coin a neologism (note 1) describing software or hardware products whose vendors exercise an inappropriate, unwarranted, and unsolicited degree of remote control over its post-purchase operation:
Tetherware.
Google doesn't find any occurrences of the term on either WWW or Usenet, so I hereby claim all proprietary IP rights to the word "tetherware" and all variants thereof on an exclusive worldwide basis.
Happily, a license to propagate this meme is available for only $1 per use, payable via PayPal to jmiles@pop.net. Use of the term "tetherware," in public or private, without remittance of the license fee will result in the remote disabling of your personal communications apparatus via techniques previously employed by Vader et al., Imperial Business Software Alliance, c. 1977.
I've even come up with a tres trendy slogan for my new invention:
"Tetherware: Where do you want to be dragged kicking and screaming today?"
(Note 1: If you don't know what a "neologism" is, see http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?neologism and choose the meaning that most clearly applies.)
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
Looks like the word "protected" will let Tivo an easy way out.
Indeed, the law makes clear distinction between "a computer" and "a protected computer". However what protected means here is unclear to me. It may be protected by this law or protected by user. The former qualifies, the latter may be argued (a rape can not be justified because the victim was too weak to defend herself.)
why would he need to be connected to the phone at all?
Because it's his unit and the user is free to plug it wherever he pleases, including even less obvious possibilities :-) If seriously, the cable might have been plugged to evaluate the service with possible intent to subscribe. Failure of a homeowner to install a better lock would be a very weak defense at the trial of a burglar.
Alternatively, does anyone know why this same TV Tuner won't work under Linux? On Mandrake 8, I just get the same channel it was playing last under Windows, and under Red Hat I don't get anything at all. With both I use XawTV.
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;
There's a $5000 damage requirement, but you get to aggregate that over all the victims.
And trying to use such an act to sell a service may be extortion.
Note that in this case, the user did not agree to some shrink-wrap license which might be said to justify the act. He didn't subscribe to the service.
Somebody with a TiVo and this problem should file a criminal complaint.
And Tivo offering to fix the problem if you complain isn't a defense for this crime.
He had to connect to the phone to set the clock, because Tivo wouldn't let him manually set it. While connected to the phone, the unit called "home" in the middle of the night, and downloaded a new OS -- one that removed features that had existed previously, features that he had paid for.
When he bought the product he made a choice to trade a certain amount of money for certain features. Tivo, after the fact, disabled some of those features. He didn't get to unilaterally retract some of the money he paid them after they delivered his Tivo, did he? Why should they be able to unilaterally retract features?
"They're a business" is not an answer. Busineses don't get special treatment under contract law. They're just parties, like individuals are.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
TiVo is losing money. For last year they posted a 100 million dollar loss. Their income was only 3 million dollars.
TiVo PAYS Sony and RCA to manufacture the boxes. Yes, that's right. It's not the other way around. TiVo actually has to subsidize the cost of manufacturing the boxes.
The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
Hopefully TiVo won't continue to make the boxes less and less functional, since they might soon be out of business.
Sounds like Iridium. And we know how successful that business model was.
TiVo will just join the line of great ideas and products that were stupidly marketed. "Your business model sucks" realities are everywhere you look these days.
T
Milhouse: "Why don't we put it on the internet?"
If the unit is unsubbed, it's not calling
If the unit is not calling, its clock is potentially hours or days off, as there is NO menu option to set the clock without calling TiVo's servers. Read the longer thread.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I'd be interested in reading the legal definition of "effective", in re access control.
The DMCA (17 USC 1201) defines an effective access control as one that, "in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work."
Obviously, eight bit is far from effective
DigitalConvergence doesn't seem to think so. DC cease and desisted somebody who cracked the CueCat barcode reader's third-grade 8-bit XOR encryption.
Will I retire or break 10K?
but are the listings copyrighted material? If not, isn't that a requirement
The listings may be copyright the TV networks. But even if the listings may not be copyrighted, other parts of the protocol may be. For example, there may be a big piece of copyrighted data passed around (like the Dreamcast IP.bin's license screen code) that must match a copy in ROM bit-for-bit. Or a hash of some copyrighted data may be involved (see also GAIM troubles). Either way, you have copyright + access control + circumvention == DMCA violation.
Will I retire or break 10K?
It's not illegal if if it's licensed by the company (DirectTV) that encrypts the signal.
It's also DirecTV's right to refuse to license any decryption that produces a cleartext digital output.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
No. If you try to reverse engineer them but find out that the protocol is encrypted, you just violated the DMCA because you published your results on a site accessible to United States viewers. Sorry.
Will I retire or break 10K?
First I would like to comment that you should actually take the time to read an article that is posted rather then start on a rant.
If you would have read the article you would have noticed that he did not download and install any software on his own. The unit needs to be plugged into a phone line in order sync it's time. They offer this time-sync for free. Now if Tivo offers these units as stand-alone/no service needed to operate. You can still:
1. Rewind/Record Live Programs.
2. No need for a tape
3. No need to label a video tape
4. One touch delete.
5. One touch record.
This is advertised on the box. Now Tivo has disabled such features as:
One Touch Record
Labeling no longer works right.
Very annoying subscribe screen.
Now it is hardly fair that they change your unit because you do not want to subscribe to they're service. They offer the devices for sale without a need for their service. Now it appears they have changed their mind. Well just because they created a product that didn't actually need service to be useful is not the customers fault.
Imagine you have a Palm VII. You love it but did not sign up for the palm.net service, then all of a sudden palm decides that you can no longer use your organizer without subscribing to they're internet service, you would be pissed!
I promise you there will be a class-action lawsuit over this, and I would whole-heartedly support it.
I read the av forum and was really surprised at the tone of the posts from TiVolutionary, supposedly a "face" to the TiVo company. Is this a pointer to the bigger issue of hardware ownership? I think it's pretty dangerous (legally and ethically) when a person can in no uncertain terms purchase i.e. you go to *favorite retailer goes here*, grab a TiVo, go to the cashier, and walk out with YOUR OWN unit with a receipt to prove ownership. Then find out later that no - that's not really how it works. The fine print in that case is bull$hit. The TiVo guy on that forum basically said that if you do not subscribe you are NOT A TiVo customer and go F yourself. He needs a boot in the ass to remember that TiVo is partnered with the hardware company, period. Being a complete Dick to the owners of those devices makes all parties look really bad.
Legally he may be right, but ethically and comercially he's dead wrong. The TiVo brand is all over that product (that thingie you walked out of Best Buy with a receipt taped on the box). With the official response that TiVolutionary Bozo posted I wonder how many people not only made the decision to NEVER subscribe, but also advised friends and family how the TiVo company is about "their" product. Yeah, so maybe the legaleeze that nobody reads lets TiVo off the hook, but I understand that the marketing shows that the TiVo subscription "enhances" the operation, but doesn't preclude the basic features. Why anyone would knowingly spend $400 and be OK with a nag screen on every button astounds me - so I am probably right in assuming that "feature" isn't exactly described on the packaging or other literature. When one person whines you say ok they are a freak. When an entire community screams - maybe, just maybe the company made a bad move.
I believe that any company selling a device that requires some sort of subscription, or that they plan on "upgrading" only do so with a lease of some type. AND THEN MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR WITH 40 PT TYPE THAT YOU ARE RENTING NOT OWNING THE DEVICE!! I get tv and Internet from my cable company. They are very clear that I am LEASING the digital converter box and cable modem. This gives them the undeniable right to change it whenever they see fit and me the undeniable right to have that crap picked up if I don't like an "upgrade". ALL BECAUSE I DON'T OWN IT! And I don't have a $400 purchase receipt the wipe the tears with either :-D
Is it just me, or does it seem that just maybe the networks/studios/MPAA, et al called up Tivo and said:
After reading articles like the one that idiot Dvorak penned (http://www.forbes.com/2001/04/16/0416dvorak.html) I don't think it's too far fetched to think that Tivo may be getting pressure to pay for the "privelege" of allowing users to use these features.
I smell a class action lawsuit by Tivo purchasers coming...
-- "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -A.Einstein
You don't need to shell out $50 or so on a device to let you record stuff crippled by Macrovisions "Quality Protection."
I have an old Betamax VCR. I stuck that between my satellite systems signal output and my VHS VCR and it cleans the signal up, conveniently removing the Macrovision stuff perfectly. Now when I order a PPV on the system I can get my moneys worth and tape it. Sweet!
Hope someone finds this useful. Macrovision are evil.
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I watch Emeril over Iron Chef. (So sue me.)
I'd miss Battlebots. They don't go as fast as F1, but the chance to see flying metal parts is about the same. ;-)
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Uh... UltimateTV is a TiVo ripoff, and ain't no way in hell that MS would ever sell a Linux-based product. I'd say it's an excellent chance that your average UltimateTV unit is running WinCE.
/Brian
Besides, an OpenTiVo thing can't be that hard to build anyway -- I'm pretty sure it's been done.
/Brian
- TiVo is losing money. For last year they posted a 100 million dollar loss. Their income was only 3 million dollars.
- TiVo PAYS Sony and RCA to manufacture the boxes. Yes, that's right. It's not the other way around. TiVo actually has to subsidize the cost of manufacturing the boxes.
- The ONLY way that TiVo makes money is through its subscription service.
Hopefully TiVo won't continue to make the boxes less and less functional, since they might soon be out of business.Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
In my opinion, the current cultural blindness to the moral responsibilities of corporations is one of the root causes of the general degeneration of today.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Sheesh. How we can complain about people taking away our rights when we seem willing to abdicate them ourselves?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
From the ads I've seen, TiVo created that impression quite deliberately. As such, they should have factored the expected cost of non-subscribers into the cost of the machine. Also, through malice or incompetence, they apparently designed software that can set the clock (officially) only through a dial-in. Therefore they are automatically tying non-subscribers to their network and are obligated to support them, too.
If TiVo doesn't want to deal with non-subscribers, then they should give a fix that allows core functionality of the machine (clock set, recording, etc.) without a connection. From then on, they can refuse all calls from non-subscribers justifiably and they can cease upgrading/fixing the software of non-subscribers.
Until then, whatever legal immunities they might have, they have a moral obligation to make the devices work for all customers.
The tie-in to service is why I hesitated from getting TiVo at all. I feel vindicated. You can be sure they will never get dollar one from me now.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
How hard do you all think it would be to emulate their servers? Intercepting the phone call would be dead easy. Heck, we could even get the listings from the net and provide those too. Reverse engineer the protocol and enable whatever features you want! ;).
SSL Certificate
You can set the time on your Tivo, just do a test call periodically. You don't get the new software downloaded to you, and you have your time sync'd up. If he would have just made a test call periodically, then there would not have been an issue. He should be pointing the finger at is own dumb self.
BTW the other very easy way to set the time on your Tivo is to plug in to the serial port and just do a regular date command.
Too bad the article author is an idiot (don't allways believe what you read)
You CAN set the time without getting the new software either by sync'ing your clock with a test call periodically, or plug in a serial cable to the box and use Linux date command to set it manually if you want.
I don't know if I'd call the serial cable a "hacker" option, but someone who knew what they were doing option.
There are two options the daily "subscriber" call which usually goes out downloads program listing, etc. (which is what he was does in the article); and off of the phone setup menu, you can perform a "test call" all it does is call Tivo up and make sure everything is cool, it doesn't download updates to your OS or program listings.
I guess that's where we differ (I hold higher expectations for the word hacker), I tend to think it takes more than being able to boot from a floppy disk and mount a volume to be a "hacker option". All your doing is adding a single line to your startup script for peat sake... I mean come on, that's not a hacker that's a tinkerer.
The Tivo's without serial ports are specifically for integration with the satelite, but that in no way means you can't take your remote go to the (stupidly easy) setup menu and perform a test call. Done, end of story.. time sync'd still using 1.3 software.
He's was callin up to Tivo's subscriber line, tieing up a PAYING subscribers line (which Tivo foots the bill for). If he wouldn't have been a numbnuts and did it the proper way (make a test call periodically) there wouldn't be an issue. Tivi's expectation is that if you're calling the subscriber line, YOU ARE A SUBSCRIBER. If you don't want to subscribe stop calling the frickin' subscriber line.
The way I look at is kinda like this... you want to keep your ISP dial up connection nailed up, so you have a script that goes out and pings the ISP's server once a minute; you go out of town for the weekend and the ISP makes a nifty little program than when he get's pinged he does a port scan of the other box. Let's also say you have an aggressive personal firewall that logs all traffic, on different ports and also port scans the other system you get into a loop. You've pissed off the owner of the other box by all of the connections, your box has crashed because your logs filled up. Who's fault is it that your box crashed??? Is it the ISP's fault that they installed some new piece of software on a box that you were pinging, you were pinging them to get around the ISP to begin with.
First of all, why do I need a reason to justify that to you? If I bought the equipment and own the equipment and the advertisement only said "subscription required for advanced features" then I should, on my prerogative, be able to choose to use the equipment without subscription and without advanced features.
Second of all... Did he ACTIVELY tell the device to call into Tivo and ACTIVELY approve of a feature reduced update to be downloaded to his box? Tivo the company only makes money on the subscriptions and selling aggregated information on your television viewing habits whether you are subscribed or not. Therefore we call this an exchange... You get your clock updated by Tivo and in exchange you give them your statistics (oh you could set the clock yourself by going into a secret menu, but there is no set the clock option for a user not comfortable with back doors).
Tivo did not come into his house, but Tivo's software did have his box appropriate the use of his telephone line to connect to their service, upload information on his viewing habits, download a feature reduced software version, and installed it without informing him that this version will significantly reduce his ability to use the device and did not provide him with the option of refusing the upgrade.
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
Edward Everett (1794 - 1865)
I was happy with the functionality of the TiVo unit without the service, so I bought the TiVo and did not subscribe.
Take it back to the retailer and demand (be polite - but do not accept no for an answer) and get your money back.
Tell them the unit is now broken as far as you are concerned.
but he also agreed to subscribe to the Tivo service.
Um no he didnt. The article, and many responses clearly state that the TiVo advertisied the service as optional. He signed nothing when he exchanged money for the cardboard box containing his PVR. If he had signed a contract - like you do when you sign up for phone service and receive a 'free' or 'discounted' cell phone (ex $29 per month * 3 years = free phone).
You are off base here - he most certainly did *NOT* agree to pay for the service. They have broken the unit he paid for. Like the other poster described, X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. Simple. I hope someone sues/charges these people - this is extortion... and yet another example of corporate hubris.
Tivo is fully justified in taking away any feature they want: YOU have broken the contract, not them.Completely wrong.
Now, you might not think that's a good way to do business,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
but consider that Tivo doesn't make a single dime from the unit sales,
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
their model is entirely software/service driven.
X,Y,Z Features for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
Therefore, I think it's completely fine for them to disable their software for people who violate the service contract they agreed to when purchasing the unit.
They have broken his unit. He did not agree to any contract. TiVo should be charged criminally for vandalism, extortion, bait-and-switch, false advertising, contract violation, etc etc.
You don't like it? Fine, buy the Philips or Sony unit and write all the PVR functionality yourself.
Why? Again, the citizen::business relationship: X,Y,Z Features in some thing for $MMM. They offered. He accepted. He is not responsible to their ongoing concerns.
don't buy the unit if you don't agree to the terms.
.... need me to repeat the way this works - again?
Did you read the article? You really couldnt be *more* 'off-base'.
Without the TiVo Service, your Recorder will have extremely limited functionality. The TiVo Service is required for proper operation of the Recorder. (page 70)
The TiVo Service Agreement itself reads:
TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. (page 76)
So even people who subscribe can have features removed at TiVo's discretion. That doesn't strike me as a good sign. On the other hand, anyone who hasn't subscribed to the service wouldn't be bound by that agreement now, would they? So this doesn't really shed any light on whether what TiVo did for non-service users is legal. (It's certainly pretty unethical if you ask me.)
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
As I read the /. front page I noticed that the banner ad at the top of the screen was for TiVo, making a big deal about how it runs Linux. Clearly trying to appeal to some of the folks in this audience. Hah -- wait 'til they get a load of this thread.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Anyone interested in this kind of stuff but who shudders at the cost of £400 (cost in the UK) Plus £10 Per months of £600 up front there are alternatives. I haver personaly found that digiguide is good and with a subscription price of £4.99 a year! Its only a tv guide but their website has links to some third party software to allow you to use your PC tvcard to record your sorted. you need a PC with a decent amount of disk, tvcard (£60), digiguide(£4.99 per year) and the recording software (around $35 i think it was) all comming in significantly cheaper than the tivo, plus you can throw an extra hard drive at it if you find you need the space, or even burn your favourite tv series to CDrom or something :-} PS. if you have a tv card already you can always try out digiguide and the recording software, on shareware trial for 30days
-- Vagnerr - (www.vagnerr.com) Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I had been thinking about buying one for awhile, had it budgeted for next month.
Well don't let this stop you.. if the money is already earmarked, you can always buy a ReplayTV for about the same money. It's interesting to me after reading a lot of messages today that there isn't much talk about Tivo's non-subscription based comepetitor. I looked at all 3 major PVR's and decided among other things that ($0 < $10)/month was pretty cool. As such, I've been quite happy with mine for a few months now.
It's probably a little OT, but I'd be curious to hear why a lot of folks appear to be sold on Tivo over Replay (well--aside from today, of course). Is Replay not as widely available? Is there a killer-feature missing? (always curious how the other half lives)
Instead of just fluff, like FM radio, how about the change of the engine control software to add a speed limiter that can not be suspended unless you subscribed to a safe driver course needing monthly issues. You can still drive your car safely. You can even go up to 30 MPH! I think your description is right on. A 30 minute record feature is like a speed limiter. It forces the non-subscriber to much less than the full functionality of the hardware. Non subscribed TVIO's will be like the cripled cars. They are useful for the occasional trip to the corner 7-11 and nothing else. I expect to find them cheap in the local classified ads.
The truth shall set you free!
I think it's time to remove all software of the TVIO boxes and get OSS replacement software written. Please keep me posted. You paid nothing for the new upgrade version of the software and it's worth every cent.
The truth shall set you free!
RTFL. Or at least RTFL more carefully. He didn't have it dial in because he was too lazy to set the clock himself. He had it dial in because he couldn't set the clock himself. TiVo doesn't let you set the clock on your own. You have to dial in! If it weren't for this one little camel's nose under the edge of the tent, he wouldn't have had it dial in.
At this point, I'm glad I never got around to getting one of these things. This, plus the other thing I've heard they've tried (putting a commercial on the screen during pause) shows that they care more about money than their customers.
I'll wait for a more "open" solution.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
I don't see what TiVo has over ReplayTV if TiVo's going to make them into doorstops with stealth downgrades if you don't pay. Isn't that essentially the same thing? If anything, ReplayTV gets points for truth in pricing, while TiVo loses points for deceptive marketing.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
No matter what they dial, you can pick it up on the other side, just like it was their server answering.
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Actually, Tivo can give you a choice of recording from the beginning of the program (including what's in the rewind buffer) OR dumping the rewind buffer and recording just the live input (the old functionality.) I'm not sure why they couldn't have continued using the old behavior for serviceless customers-- this would have been scarcely more work than the solution they adopted ("sorry, Dave I can't do that.") Disabling the functionality entirely demonstrates utter disregard for the commitment to service-free operation they advertise in their literature.
I don't own a Tivo, so I don't know for sure, but aren't you supposed to *pay* for the directory listings? It's no wonder the Tivo folks made that go away for non-paying customers. As for the one-touch recording going away with version 2.0 of the software, that does sound a bit draconian. Can't see why that would require a data subscription.
I have a friend who's a project manager at Tivo, and she tells me that they make no money on the hardware itself. They depend on subscriptions to the service to make money, which probably explains why they're starting to crack down. I've got to ask her about the other issues, now that my curiosity is piqued.
Read the story before you post.
According to the article, TiVo (the company) executed a forced/push upgrade on TiVo (the unit) during a nightly download of user information which disabled useful features that were previously available on a nonsubscription consumer electronics device. This isn't installing a buggy Service Pack XX (R) and complaining. This is a spam listserv without an opt-in/opt-out feature.
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Bow before my sig, for it is good.
Now you could maybe argue that TiVo's engineers should have accounted for that case and fallen back to the old behavior so as to not break their legacy non-subscriber users. But you know, as someone who wants his TiVo service to keep running as long as possible, I can't work up all that much enthusiasm for the idea of TiVo spending engineering and QA resources supporting customers who're costing them money (they were losing money on every unit sold for a while, maybe still are, and making it back in subscription fees).
Then again, the idea of using a TiVo without the program guide is strange to me to begin with, so clearly I just don't get it. The guide is one of the nicest things about the unit; I have stopped knowing or caring exactly when most of the shows I watch are downloaded to its disk, and network schedule shuffling doesn't mess me up unless it's so last-minute that the listing service doesn't get notified. If you want to manually set your record timers, a VCR is cheaper.
Frankly, I consider the fact that the unit works at all without the service to be an unexpected bonus; the box was clearly designed and intended to be used with the service, and doing otherwise, it seems to me, is just asking for this kind of thing to happen over time.
The only way they could justify any decent stock valuation is with a profitable "subscription model". Sooner or later, more consumers are going to figure out that they just don't need the company.
I think you can expect a flood cheap, hardware-only TiVo-like devices in a year or two from Asian manufacturers, in addition to a lot of PC-based recording. There will probably be free, simple, non-proprietary web-based lookups of program information and broadcasters and cable stations will increasingly make that information available in a standard format. That will be followed by a lot of huffing by TiVo about how their "innovation" isn't properly rewarded and some nuisance patent suits by them that they probably shouldn't win. In the long run, TiVo will likely just disappear. If the investors are lucky, some generous or desparate consumer electronics giant will pick them up.