Stellar Apocalypse Shows Water

Andy_Howell writes "Astronomers using the SWAS satellite found a cloud of water vapor around the aging giant star CW Leonis, and the most plausible explanation is that the star incresed in lumiosty during its giant phase and is boiling away its comets. This is the first evidence for water in another solar system. In five billion years, our sun is expected to do the same thing."

Comments

Incredible discovery

[Anonymous Coward]

Granted, hydrogen is the most common atom in the universe, but oxygen is only the 3rd most common atom in the universe, and you have this very complex molecule, what is the formula again? H2O? Yeah, that's extremely unlikely to be created, especially since oxygen likes to make two bounds, and hydrogen only one. I never thought water could exist elsewhere in the universe. This means aliens won't come steal our precious water and sell it $1,000,000,000/gram on the galactic market after all. What a relief!

Re:Incredible discovery

[gando]

The reason why we have clouds of molecular gas in our galaxy today is a rather amazing one which no one originally anticipated. Besides gas, there are also small, solid dust grains belched out from winds from cool red giant stars in their final phases of evolution. Atoms collide and freeze out onto the surfaces of these grains, where they can remain for a very long time, migrating very slowly along the surface via Brownian processes. Every once in a while, it will bump into another or molecule frozen out in a similar fashion, thereby creating a more complex molecule. The dust grains catalyze the generation of molecules -- without them, we wouldn't have such an abundance of molecular gas in the galaxy today. Indeed, astronomers believe star formation in the early universe was substantially different from that which occurs today because such dust grains would have been completely absent.

I think this result is particularly surprising since one might expect that any winds or shocks thrown off by a star capable of boiling away a comet might also tend to powerful enough to destroy the molecules generated. If that really is the mechanism involved, it is a remarkable coincidence that the winds are just powerful enough to ablate the comets, but not so powerful as to destroy the molecules present.

Hey wait a second. If complex molecules are created on the backs of dust particles, what are dust particles made of? I'd presume thay they are complex molecules. Doesn't this sound just a bit like the chicken before the egg?

Re:Incredible discovery

[RobertFisher]

It's a pretty sad day for /. moderation when a clueless post such as this gets moderated up to "4, insightful".

It is actually very remarkable that molecules exist in space at all. Why? There are two sides to the process -- creation and destruction.

(*) Creation : Interstellar space is in general very tenuous , and so the likelihood that any two atoms combine in the gaseous phase to form a molecule is very improbable.

(*) Destruction - Once a molecule is created, it doesn't live forever. Space is a very harsh environment, and any molecules created are subjected to harsh cosmic radiation, the stellar radiation field (resulting from all stars surrounding it), as well as stellar winds and shocks. Any of these processes is cabable of disrupting molecules.

When you go ahead and do the naive estimate for the abundance of a molecule balancing creation and destruction rates, assuming only gaseous phase processes, you find that it is highly unlikely to find any substantial amounts of molecules in interstellar space. Indeed, when astronomers first invented instruments capable of detecting rotational mode transitions of molecules like CO and H_2O in interstellar space, their theoretician colleagues told them to forget the plan.

The reason why we have clouds of molecular gas in our galaxy today is a rather amazing one which no one originally anticipated. Besides gas, there are also small, solid dust grains belched out from winds from cool red giant stars in their final phases of evolution. Atoms collide and freeze out onto the surfaces of these grains, where they can remain for a very long time, migrating very slowly along the surface via Brownian processes. Every once in a while, it will bump into another or molecule frozen out in a similar fashion, thereby creating a more complex molecule. The dust grains catalyze the generation of molecules -- without them, we wouldn't have such an abundance of molecular gas in the galaxy today. Indeed, astronomers believe star formation in the early universe was substantially different from that which occurs today because such dust grains would have been completely absent.

I think this result is particularly surprising since one might expect that any winds or shocks thrown off by a star capable of boiling away a comet might also tend to powerful enough to destroy the molecules generated. If that really is the mechanism involved, it is a remarkable coincidence that the winds are just powerful enough to ablate the comets, but not so powerful as to destroy the molecules present.

Bob

Re:Incredible discovery

[cybermage]

This means aliens won't come steal our precious water and sell it $1,000,000,000/gram on the galactic market after all. What a relief!

Maybe this is bad news. Maybe NASA was hoping to get out of the red by selling water to thirsty aliens. So much for the Culligan module on Alpha (or whatever it's called today)

Re:Incredible discovery

[Kierthos]

You're right. However, we can assume all we want without proof. Yes, water is an incredibly simple compound, and it's fairly easy for hydrogen and oxygen to combine to form it. But this is proof.

It's like we can reasonably be sure there is intelligent life somewhere else in the universe (there's not much here, what with all the ACs running around), but we have no proof. It's incredibly unlikely that humanity is the only sentient life in the universe, but until SETI@home finds something or E.T. lands in Southern California (although, if he did, who'd notice?) we can't be sure if we're alone or not.

Nice sarcasm though.

Kierthos

Re:Incredible discovery

[schlam]

Hmmm... a fellow dune fan.... well done muadib

Now we're cooking with (superheated) gas!

[Anonymous Coward]

I always knew this CW Leonis sun couldn't cook... it even burns water!

Anonymous cowards will insert the appropriate groan when and where they feel like it.

Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

"Astronomers using the SWAS satellite found a cloud of water vapor around the aging giant star CW Leonis

There is a more logical explanation why there is a big cloud of water vapor around this star: since this is an old star, it is still powered with steam engines instead of nuclear fusion, used in more modern stars.

Integral Trees

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of Larry Niven's novel the Integral Trees, about hu-mans inhabiting large tree like structures orbiting a star which is surrounded by a could of gas, including enough oxygen, etc. for life. Could some sort of space fish inhabit this water cloud? Probably too diffuse, but would make for a good sci-fi story.

Pillars?

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to know wether there are pillars underneath
this water.

Re:Pillars?

[JBowz15]

How might there be pillars "under" this cloud of water vapor in space?

Finally, the Rock has come back to /.

OH MY GOD NO!

[Anonymous Coward]

"In five billion years, our sun is expected to do the same thing."

I better start living my life now then and download as much porn as I can before time runs out

Re:Alternative theories?

[JetJaguar]

If you're talking about stellar atmospheres, then yes, astronomers assume that all the oxygen gets bound up in carbon, unless you're talking about S type stars (low carbon abundance stars) then the oxygen gets bound up in metal-oxides and you start seeing strange things like zirconium-oxide or titanium-oxide.

However, outside of a stellar atmosphere, you can easily form other molecules containing oxygen, and since hydrogen is the most abundant element, water is going to be formed in reasonably large quantities.

As for dying stars being able to melt comets when their main sequence progenitors could not... This is not a surprising result. When a star enters the red giant phase, the outer layers of the star may cool off, but the luminosity (the power output) of the star goes way up (think Betelgeuse). Even if the outer portion of the star is cooler, it's still going to be warm enough to melt ice!

Finally, I'm not sure what the big deal about all this is anyway. Astronomers have been observing H2O masers around red giants and star forming regions for years. We've known for a long time that water is out there...

I can't wait.

[ocie]

Looks at his watch. "Only 4 billion, 999 million, 999 thousand 999 years, 364 days 23 hours and 59 minutes to go"

Re:Forget it

[Andreas Bombe]

After the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies collide, there won't be anything left but rapidly nova'ing stars and vast stretches of burning gases.

Milky Way and Andromeda as a whole will collide, the stars themselves don't (maybe one or two pairs). True, a supernova in our neighbourhood might be pretty bad for live due to all the radiation, but it won't blow our solar system away. If we aren't in space with dense particle clouds, these bad ass stars won't be that near, they might still be dangerous however.

Re:Water or beer in stars

[PD]

The right processes for making beer have already happened in the universe. On Earth. Why look so far away for beer? It is common in many supermarkets.

Cosmic bidet

[Syberghost]

Maybe we can use this water to clean up that ring of debris around Uranus.

-

So . . .

[SimplyCosmic]

. . . What you're saying is that should some company out there attempt to patent the process of using a dying star to produce water, we have evidence of prior art, right?

Water and Life, elsewhere...

[mefus]

From what I understand of creationist ideology, the water vapor surrounding these star systems was put there by Satan to make one believe The Creation is a Myth

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:Water and Life, elsewhere...

[Rand Race]

I thought that sneaky bastard Jehova put it there to test our faith.

Re:Suicide Watch?

[mefus]

Don't know which one you are referring to, but in Annie Hall Woody's character (as a child) obsessed on the death of the universe, and thought (like Feynman watching the bridgebuilders) that everything was vergeblich... in vain.

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:Except that

[mefus]

Yeah but the constellations... they'll change.

That's where we've pinned our mythology.

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:my story

[mefus]

You know, you really shouldn't expose yourself like that...

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:/. is on crack

[mefus]

I don't think MD5 is even near this lame... especially since I just got a similar message awhile back.

I'm more inclined to believe it's a slashcode bug.

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:/. is on crack

[mefus]

So, what do MD5 and Linux have in common that you felt compelled to write this crap?

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

Re:H2O

[mefus]

Uh, it can't be detected unless it sublimates.

The detection system undoubtedly relies on the absorbance of light (passing through the vapor cloud, originating from the central star) at wavelengths peculiar to interference by H20...

mefus
--
um, er... eh -- *click*

five billion years

[csbruce]

In five billion years, our sun is expected to do the same thing

The story about Andromeda colliding with the Milky Way earlier today said that this would happen in 15-billion years. How is a person supposed to make contingency plans with all of this conflicting information!?

Re:Except that

[drudd]

Actually many of the stars which make up the constellations have fairly large proper motions.

The constellations that the greeks saw were actually visibly different than the ones we see today.

Doug

Re:Except that

[Microlith]

In 3 billion years when andromeda collides with the milky way, it'll be like trying to catch air with a net: It'll just pass right through.

The only difference here being that the stars will all tug on each other with gravity, distorting the shapes of the galaxies.

Barring some bizzare incident, the sun will be here for 5+ billion years in some form or another (and with any luck, we'll be elsewhere as well).

Re:H2O

[Microlith]

Water is small.

Really small.

And to get enough water to stay collected in a vaccum (where water likes to sublimate quickly) so that we can detect it from this far away is rare.

Now for its existence elsewhere in the universe, that's a no-brainer. It DOES. It's a simple molecule.

Re:The end of hope, the betrayal of eternity.

[smirkleton]

I mourn for the stupidity of Ice Pirates myself. Alas, that craptacular bad comedy of misadventure is still available for rent.

Snooty bottled water of the future

[Ukab the Great]

"Try perrier, drawn from pristine dying solar systems"

Alternative theories?

[magi]

I begun wondering about this:

"IRC+10216 is a carbon-rich star in which the concentration of carbon exceeds that of oxygen," Melnick said. "In such stars, we expect all the oxygen atoms to be bound up in the form of carbon monoxide (an oxygen atom and a carbon atom bound together), with almost nothing left over to form water (one oxygen atom bound to two hydrogen atoms).

Ok, the star has a lot of oxygen. The astronomers assume that the oxygen is bound to the carbon, but what if this is not the case? IANAA, but what if there's enough free oxygen and hydrogen than can bind, and then perhaps escape from the star? (I'm not sure if its possible that just the oxygen comes from the star and then binds to interstellar hydrogen.)

Another, perhaps better possibility might that the water is from an earlier stage, where all the oxygen was not bound to carbon. My introductionary astronomy book says about small stars:

"When the core runs out of helium, the star will have two shells at different depths. Hydrogen burns at the outern shell [to helium] and helium in the inner [to carbon and oxygen]. This structure is unstable and the matter can mix, or escape to space and form a shell, much like a planetary nebulae. " (translated roughly from a Finnish textbook).

Thus, if the escaping mixed matter is hydrogen and oxygen....-> huge cloud of water!

If this idea is valid, the astronomers probably have already thought about it and have taken it into account, and for some reason have judged it unsatisfactory.

I personally find it very difficult to imagine how a dying star could vaporize the comets around it, if it couldn't do it when it was still young and bright. Perhaps it could have done it during some middle-age crisis, for example if it was an inflated gas giant at some point.

*shrug*, IANAA, just an amateur.

Re:Water or beer in stars

[Dr_Cheeks]

H2O is pretty easy to create actually - burn some hydrogen in some oxygen and bingo! H2O.

"Beer Molecules" is actually a misunderstanding, since there's various compounds that make up beer, all with different molecular structures. It's mainly water, some alcohol (C2H5OH - again, not massively complicated, but a bit tougher to make than water) and various compounds that give it it's taste. Chances of all of these appearing in the right concentration to make it drinkable are slim, to say the least, but then it is an infinite universe (probably).....

PS - Slashdot really needs to come up with a way to type subscripts in chemical formulas.

Except that

[fractaltiger]

In 3 billion years, our galaxy will start undergoing some modifications ... there may be no "sun" in 5 billion years :)

Water or beer in stars

[fractaltiger]

Since H2O is so hard to create, I wonder about the odds of Beer molecules being created inside stars.

Re:Water or beer in stars

[JBowz15]

Lucy in the Sky with Beer?

Ice Pirates

[Robber Baron]

I take it you never saw Ice Pirates... really cheezy Sci Fi flick (spoof?) starring Robert Urich in which, you guessed it, water was so rare and expensive a commodity that there were "pirates" flying around in spaceships, stealing water...liquid or frozen (hence the name).

But our sun won't be able to do the same

[Kwelstr]

Because according to a previous /. alert story, our galaxy is gonna collapse with Andromeda in 2 billion years, so our sun now is out o' time to burn in 5 billion years. Oh well, too bad, was looking forward to it...

Re:But our sun won't be able to do the same

[Yazeran]

Well even if our galaxy do collide with the andromeda, chances are that only the structure of the galaxy is going to change, remember the huge distance between the stars. Two galaxies might pass right through each other without any collisions at all. Of cause the gravitational pull would create havoc in the orbital pathways of the individual stars around the galactic center, and perhaps send stars right out of the galaxy (as possibly shown on the 'horseshoe galaxy', cant remember where i saw it, but it looks like a horseshoe with a slight 'bump' at the bottom, which is interpreted as the two galactic nucli)

So most likely, the sun would not be affected unless the center of the andromeda passes near by (in astronomical terms!), if that happened (due to the much higher stelar density near a galaxy's core), then the planatary system might be destroyed as tidal forces would strip the planets away from the sun (could anyone say bad luck!). The sun would be unaffected however.

In order for individual stars to be affected, one would have to have a direct hit, just as implausible as Rutherfords famous backwards deflection in his experiment with shooting alphaparticles at a gold foil. 99.99% of the particles passed the foil with little or no deflection (He actualy used this information to calculate the diameter of the atomic nuclius relative to the atomic diameter).

Well guess that was my 2 cents

Yours Yazeran

Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer.

Apocalypse?

[maxxon]

A bit much. A red giant is just the final stage of a normal main sequence star like the Sun. They burn brightly while they fuse helium, then when they use up their fuel they shed their outer envelope and puff away to a white dwarf, nice and quiet like.

Re:Apocalypse?

[Magius_AR]

dude, apocalypse means end of the world, and if our sun _does_ go red giant, earth will be baked to a crisp. So its actually not a bit much, its quite accurate.

Magius_AR

H2O

[BiggestPOS]

Ok, 2 of the SIMPLEST atoms in the universe, and an oxygen. Thats it. You think water would be everywhere. You think we'd be finding the stuff all over the place. Apparently large quantites of this element critical to sustain life as WE know it is local to us. This gives us special creation guys just a little bit more ammo, I mean, it took THIS long to MAYBE find some water? Heh

Re:H2O

[perlchimp]

Now for its existence elsewhere in the universe, that's a no-brainer. It DOES. It's a simple molecule.
They do not claim to be the first people to find water outside of the solar system. It has been known for years that it does. A quick search on the internet will find articles published in reputable journals showing this.

As far as being a being a 'no-brainer', one cannot claim that because it seems obvious or simple it must be true. That is not science.

Re:H2O

[JBowz15]

You think water would be everywhere. You think we'd be finding the stuff all over the place.

I decided to subject this theory to the scientific method:
Hypothesis: as stated above.
Test: I walk out into my back yard. I see the Atlantic ocean.
Conclusion: Damn, he's onto something. I see a whole lot of water out there.

Re:Move than just proving water

[franimal]

Actually, we're not sure. Europa is the Jupiter moon that may have liquid water: its surface is icy but has cracks. This leads us to conclude that there may be liquid water underneath that is cause the crust to move and crack much like the tectonic plates on earth. We won't be positive until Europa Orbiter and Europa Lander get there:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/europaorbiter/.

Water, Beer, etc.

[Alien54]

I recall that a while back there was a discovery of cosmic clouds of what was basically alchohol in space, spanning satires based on star trek with spock as the designated driver.

there was this Slash Story on how the compounds for life are all over space.

Farscape is starting to look reasonable.

Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip

Re:Water, Beer, etc.

[agdv]

I recall that a while back there was a discovery of cosmic clouds of what was basically alchohol in space, spanning satires based on star trek with spock as the designated driver.

...and also editorial cartoons about Yelstin wanting to revamp the Russian Space Program to get a great vodka supply (in some English newspaper?). Or of the alcohol cloud emanating from the Kremlin (in a Spanish newspaper). Yes, I remember that one.

Forget it

[shokk]

It sounds like in five billion years the sun will do no such thing. After the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies collide, there won't be anything left but rapidly nova'ing stars and vast stretches of burning gases. Something radically other than human will be here to witness that weird night sky.

Re:Suicide Watch?

[Copperhead]

Yeah, that was it. Little Alvie Singer (Woody Allen) wouldn't do his school work because "the universe is expanding".

Suicide Watch?

[Copperhead]

Do we need to put Hemos on a suicide watch? First the article on the Milky Way colliding with Andromeda, and now this story, both with references to the sun boiling away in 5 billion years, I'm wondering if he's slipped into some Woody Allen type depression.

Re:Suicide Watch?

[eXtro]

Suicide watch? I'd pay $9.95 on pay per view but not a penny more! I would shell out 50 bucks for ring side seats though.

Re:Move than just proving water (Reality Check)

[ageitgey]

Life can sustain in wildly different environments, not just temperate grasslands.

But HA! We got the grasslands! It's not all computers and slashdot out there... Go enjoy what we have before your cheap monitor makes your eyes fall out.

First 14 and now 5?

[Bonker]

In five billion years, our sun is expected to do the same thing.

and from Earlier today:

A lof of people know that our Sun will be a red giant in about 15 billion years, and its size will increase dramaticaly beyond the Mercury orbit and we will burn.

Boy, I'm glad that the /. crew isn't responsible for running the universe. We'd always be worried about how much time we have left before V.A. Solar System filed Chapter 13, and we'd all be annoyed at all the 'First Metor Impacts' and 'First Solar Flares'

The worst part, however, would be the constant revisioning of physics because posters could never get their facts straight.

Move than just proving water

[Meatlog]

We're already fully aware of water having either existed on other planets in the past or existing now as in the case of the moons of Jupiter. Life can sustain in wildly different environments, not just temperate grasslands.

The Sky is Falling!

[spellcheckur]

The SWAS observations of IRC+10216 paint a picture of the future of our solar system. "We think we are witnessing the type of apocalypse that will ultimately befall our own planetary system," said SWAS team member Dr. David Neufeld, a Johns Hopkins professor of physics and astronomy.

I'm sick of all these doomsday theorists. Isn't it obvious? Some script kiddies saw another IRC hub to take down and accidentally vaporized an entire solar system!

I can just see the slasback heading this week... EFNet IRC blows up, so does IRC in another galaxy.

Isn't there only one Solar system?

[UnclePaeng]

This has bugged me for as long as I can remember, but isn't there only one Solar system since there is only one star named Sol (ie, the Sun)? Shouldn't other stellar systems be named after the star around which they orbit? You know, like the Alpha Centauri system, the Proxima Centauri system, etc.? Just wondering.

Well whoopity-doo!

[Sarcasmooo!]

I expect that 5 billion years from now our species will have been eradicated by disgruntled aliens who were refused a refund by Emporer Gates. The easy thing about these sort of predictions is that if me and this guy are wrong, who cares? We're both dead.

Titan AE....

[teambpsi]

'nuf said ;)

Re:What about the planets?

[Yazeran]

Except that the stellar winds that boil away the comets would first have hit the planetary system Much closer (and hence hotter) to the star, in efect char-grilling them. Big planaet like Jupiter might survive due to their large mass, but planets like earth would be stripped of any volatile components like atmosphere and vater.

Planets in other star systems do also not get the benefit of this vapour cloud, as it would be too dispersed before it enters nearby star-systems.

Yours Yazeran

Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer.

Evidence of Water?

[number one duck]

This might be trivial, but isn't 'proving water' a bit of a scientific non-issue? I would have assumed that most scientists consider molecular chemistry pretty... universal (ignore the pun). Now if this was *liquid* water, or an actual ocean...

Re:Ice Pirates (now OT)

[guuyuk]

Yeah, that was a funny movie. Between the time dialation sequence and the "space herpes" (ewww)...

As far as the movie being cheezy, I agree! More cheese than in Wisconsin, more corn than in Nebraska!

Re:pussy

[s20451]

You're talking to a man with -108 karma here

How the hell did you do that? I mean, after you're down around -10 or so, you start posting at -1 by default, so that means you can't lose any more karma, right? Or did you do something to deliberately piss off the editors?

A blight on the fingers that typed this obscenity!

[Flying Headless Goku]

I mourn for the bleakness of your existence.

What is a life without appreciation for the poetic beauty of Ice Pirates? Truly, it is a peerless wonder, a magnificent gift from the gods themselves.

O, shameful day, when a soulless sore on the face of humanity may mock humanity's greatest achievement with impunity! O, sorrowful day, when an innocent child, as we are all innocent children in our heart of hearts, is denied the light of life that comes in VHS format!
--

The end of hope, the betrayal of eternity.

[Flying Headless Goku]

I mourn for the impossibility of Ice Pirates. Alas, that marvelous dry universe of adventure is not ours.
--

but what about indoor swimming pools?

[layingMantis]

Several billion years from now, the Sun will become a giant star and its power output will increase five thousand fold. And the press has blatantly ignored this issue and instead concentrates on scandal and violence! I'm no scientist but this could have significant consequences on global warming.

Re:Hrm

[John F. Ketamine]

No matter. You're a fuckin' schmendrick either way.

Just here to put your heart at ease. You're welcome.

Not surprising

[Tuxinatorium]

How could any star system possibly not have water? Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe, and Oxygen is a common element created in mass quantities in every supernova. It's practically impossible to have a star system without plenty of water in it.

Re:/. is on crack

[vtwahoo]

Well, as we all know, the custom built software /. runs on looses track of particularly radiant posts over time while still keeping the entry in the data base. We have the Russians to thank for pointing out that bug. In this case the pillar formation of the posts submerged in a discussion about water has amplified the affect and....

Nevermind...