Not to rain on their parade
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 4
But for those wanting to build a 1 TB servers, cheaper options already exist with commodity components. For example:
18(*) WD 60 GB hard drives ($2250)
3 Hotrod ATA/100 controllers ($180)
Powered enclosure ($200)
Custom extra-long IDE cables ($150)
Get a motherboard with 4 IDE channels (most "raid versions" have this) and plug 12 drives into the Hotrods, 4 into the motherboard's raid channels, and 2 into the secondary ide channel. The boot hard drive goes on the primary ide channel.
The total cost of this server is still under $3500 after supplying the rest of the computer. As long as you don't need 24/7 uptime or massive throughput, this is enough for 1 TB of directly available storage.
(*) This is a bit more than 1 TB but you have to account for space lost during formatting.
Re:Not to rain on their parade
by
Forge
·
· Score: 2
How manny of those "Hotrod" controlers can you put in a a single motherboard? I ask because It looks like a Cool idea to have the controlers do hardwear raid and present the OS with a single drive 180GB or 300GB drive each. (Using 60GB or 100GB drives).
The OS could then be asked to make a software RAID of those. I.e. with 5 controlers you could have 1.2 TB at a sane cost.
Perhaps not under $5,000 but still sane.
-- --=
Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Re:Not to rain on their parade
by
adjuster
·
· Score: 5
Get a motherboard with 4 IDE channels (most "raid versions" have this) and plug 12 drives into the Hotrods, 4 into the motherboard's raid channels, and 2 into the secondary ide channel. The boot hard drive goes on the primary ide channel.
Ouch! Spend a few hundred more, and get an Escalade Storage Switch. They perform very well and aren't wildly expensive (you should be able to have an 8-channel 32-bit, 33Mhz version for under $500.00). You also have your motherboard IDE channels free for things like DVD-ROM drives... heh heh... Lots of DVD-ROM drives... Heh heh...
Ahh, yes-- and there are Linux drivers available for the Escalade controllers. If you're looking for wild amounts of performance, they do have a 66Mhz, 64-bit PCI version available, too. Wowza.
Promise has their SuperTrak controller, which looks very interesting, but based on some messages I saw flying around on the Kernel List, apparently it's not as straightforward as just compiling in I2O support to use it under Linux. Grrr...
Check out this review and this review if you want to see how the Escalade stacked up to other "high end" IDE RAID controllers.
The space is an anti-lamer measure. Slashdot will put spaces in ANY long text string to break it up. Back when Slashdot was still new some lamers discovered that they could make a string 10000 characters long and force the "width" of the Slashdot window out forever. It was extremly annoying because you had to constanty scroll left and right to read the real posts in the article. These days you can't do that anymore, but you have to deal with spaces in links if the poster doesn't know how to make them real links (Hint, look up the Anchor tag, particularly the HREF option).
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
--
I read the internet for the articles.
Re:That's alot of space (for MP3s of course!)
by
jCaT
·
· Score: 2
Yeah... last place I worked had 8 tape robots, with a total of *3800Tb* of storage space- yeah, 3.8 *peta* bytes. So, using your math, that array could play music for FIFTY NINE years. Hell, I might even double the bitrate, i think 30 years of music would still work out just fine!
There are plenty of uses. I work in a radiology department where all our images are acquired digitally instead of on film. We acquire an estimated 4-5 TB worth of images each year. Our current archives (optical disk) will only hold about 1 months worth of data online before patient images get taken offline and put on a shelf. The ability to have a cheap TB online archive would mean significantly faster image retrievals when radiologists want to compare a patient's images with a previous study. Especially important when hospitals are cutting budgets back in a big way, but workloads keep going up.
-- "For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
Ok, but they forgot to buy their backup system. A big server's no good if you can't get your information back after a catastrophe (e.g. is it sitting under a sprinkler head?).
Good grief, what do you back up a terabyte onto these days?
Jon Acheson
-- All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Sweet, finally enough disk space so I can compile mozilla staticly with optimizations!
Nice, but what use 50MB/s speed with 10MB/s net?
by
Thagg
·
· Score: 2
I am in the process of building a fileserver for my little visual effects company. This article was extremely helpful and informative, although my solutions will be somewhat different from theirs.
In particular, they claim to get 50 MB/sec transfer rates from their disk array. But, you can see that they also specify just a 10 MB/sec 100BaseTX ethernet; so 80% of that bandwidth is completely wasted.
I was curious what people's solutions to this are. Does one just get multiple 100BaseTX ethernet connections to a switch, or are people going Gigabit ethernet from the fileserver to the switch?
I plan to go the second route. There are many ethernet switches out there with one or two gigabit ports such as this 3COM switch. This should give 100MB/sec to the switch, and then the switch can distribute this bandwidth to all the client machines at 10MB/sec.
At least this is a reasonable stopgap until Gigabit Ethernet is more ubiquitous.
Any comments?
thad
-- I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
...and there's a space embedded in yours. Slashdot does this on purpose forsome perverse reason that nobody including the guys at Slashdot knows. C'mon guys... this misfeature has been annoying us for years. Please get rid of it!
-- You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I never doubted that there was a legitimate reason, but I hafta think there's a better way to handle it. Of course, since I don't have a suggestion, maybe I should just shut up.
-- You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Backups are inherently cheap, as well
by
Plasmic
·
· Score: 3
After careful consideration, I have determined that every terabyte of data you want to backup will cost roughly $5,000.
Even if you don't do incremental backups, it's still a bargain. Hell, get some more of these teraservers and do software RAID between them; this is phenomenally cheap space, folks. For the price that companies are paying for this kind of space currently, you could buy tens of terabytes of space and make it octuple-redundant and still knock a heap of cash off of your capital budget.
Re:Backups are inherently cheap, as well
by
Plasmic
·
· Score: 3
Tar up your terabyte, copy it across the Internet (or a private circuit, if you're really smart) to your off-site spare teraservers that cost $5k a piece. That's still an order of magnitude more cost-effective than shelling out the dough for Digital's disaster-tolerant FDDI remote clustering technology.
The bandwidth costs are irrelevant since they apply to any backup/clustering technology, and it's quite obvious that it's cheaper to buy lots of $5k terabytes and spread 'em out across the country than any of the big guys' "commercial enterprise-class solutions."
When in doubt, have your company buy 10 more terabytes just to be on the safe side. It's only $50k! Most manager-level positions at Fortune 500s can sign off on a purchase that size.
This stuff is great! Give terabytes as stocking-stuffers to your kids at Christmas.
I guarantee you that N, the cost for however many layers of redundancy it would take to make you comfortable with using these as production servers, where N = $5,000 * your preferred number of layers, is cheaper than your Netapp filers.
1 Tb for $5000 is nice. Size is one thing, but the underlying software is another thing.
Netapp filers are expensive, but excellent because the filesystem (designed by former SGI employees, who designed XFS) rocks. It's fast, it's damn reliable, and the "snapshot" feature kicks ass. Also, their NFS implementation works flawlessly (and this is a *rare* thing) .
So SDSC has a nice project on the hardware part, but I wouldn't trust them for production servers.
--
Pure FTP server - Upgrade your FTP server to something simple and secure.
It's hardly the same. A TB on a Netapp might cost 300,000, but it's worth every penny.
Sure, you can get just as much disk space for an order of magnitude less. But you won't get their reliability, or their feature set. We use them exclusively for our storage needs. We have about 8TB of space on them right now. At anytime we can retrieve a recently deleted file or directory, do hot bakups, make new containers on the fly, hot swap out bad drives, add a new shelf of drives, chew gum and walk.
In a production environment, where the data on those servers is the lifeblood of your company/organization, some DIY IDE RAID setup will not withstand the demands, or come close to yielding the results of a NetApp (or EMC, or Xiotech, or Compaq, etc..)
These IDE RAID setups are fine for your mp3's or your personal or small workgroup fileservers. Just don't bet the farm on them.
Hmm.. A Terabyte fileserver under 5000 bucks, that's easy (unless you are a SCSI freak):
- 180$ for Motherboard ABIT KT7A-RAID
- 138$ for 1GHz Thunderbird
- 130$ for 3 * 256Mt Dimm PC-133
- 71$ for GeForce 2 mx (Overkill for a fileserver)
- 83$ for 10GB MAXTOR (for booting:)
- 38$ for A CD-Rom drive (might be needed when installing OS)
- 51$ for Inter EtherExpress PRO100
- 58$ for HTP370 IDE Raid controller
- 290$ for BIIIG Case
- 2900$ for 10 * MAXTOR 100GB
- 145$ for 10 * IDE Rack (It is nice to have a cooler for each HDD)
Total: 4085$ for Big Ass Fileserver
This leaves us 900$ (plus discount) for extra stuff like gigabit ethernet, monitor, keyboard and mouse etc.
Wayne and Garth, computer geeks, in an MS dominated world. (In some twisted alternate reality.)
Wayne: "Hi, everyone. Today, we're gonna make a cheap 1TB file server"
Garth: "That's right. We're going to be using the new Windows XP OS."
Wayne: "Yes, Apple's stuff is too proprietary. MS is the open alternative."
Both: "MS rules. Apple sucks. MS rules. Apple sucks."
Wayne: "Alright, that was cool. Anyway, we've got an Intel chip {ed note: No AMD, either}, some RAM, case, power supply. We've just got one drive hooked up to see if this thing will boot."
Garth: (Turns on power) "Alright Wayne, I'm installing XP. It will take a while. Commercials?"
Wayne: "Yeah, we'll be right back."
{Commercials}
Wayne: "Alright, we're back. Had to call MS to register, but we're up. Everything looks good. It's a little slow, so we're going to add some memory while we add drives."
{Time passes}
Garth: "OK. Well, XP says that we need to re-register. Commercial?"
Wayne: "Alright."
{Commercial}
Wayne: "Well, the nice lady at MS chastised us for changing our system, but she let us off with a warning." {W&G both laugh} "Anyway, we've got a new registration code and we're well on our way to 1 TeraByte of storage!"
Both: "Woohoo! MS Rules. MS Rules."
Garth: "Alright, so we're up to 256 MB of RAM, 200GB of hard disk space. We'll add a new controller, add some more memory since this thing still seems a little slow and we'll be right back."
{Time does its thing}
Wayne: "OK, we're back. Had to call MS again. They were a little peeved this time." {Shoots Garth a knowing look and both kind of chuckle} "Anyway, they were gracious enough to let us have another registration code. Thanks, Bill." {Laughs}
Garth: "Yeah, and someone called and wanted to know why we need 1TB of storage."
Wayne: "Yeah, like that's not obvious. Between us and all our friends, we've been to every major rock concert in a 500 mile radius of Chicage for about 10 years now."
Garth: {Whispering, looking furtively around} "And, even though nobody knows..."
Both: {Yelling in glee} "We've taped every show."
Wayne: "Thousands and thousands of hours of rock. We're going to rip 'em all - Hey, Garth, 'Rip em all', is that a Metallica album?"
Garth: {chuckles} "Good one, Wayne. Good one."
Wayne: "Thanks. Anyway, we're going to rip 'em all, catalog 'em, rate 'em, and listen to 'em until we get sick of 'em."
Garth: "OK Wayne. Things look good. It's still a little slow. Maybe a faster chip and some more RAM. Perhaps we should've gone SCSI. It should be alright for just serving MP3's, though."
Wayne: "OK. We'll be right back."
{Time, again}
Garth: "We're back. Wayne's getting some water. He got a little hoarse begging MS for another activation code. For a minute, it looked like we weren't going to get it, but Wayne talked 'em out of one. Here he is now."
Wayne: "Thanks, Garth. It's alright, just some red tape. No problems. MS rules!"
Garth: {Sounding not so sure} "Yeah, MS rules!"
Wayne: "OK, Garth what do we have?"
Garth: "We got a faster chip, we're up to 512MB of RAM, and..." {drumroll} "...we've got 1 TeraByte of storage!!"
Wayne: "Alright, Garth. Party on. Are we ready to serve up some MP3's?"
Garth: "No. I think we're going to need to up the RAM again, this thing is still slow. Also," {Laughs ruefully} "We don't have a network card yet. No sound card, either."
Wayne: {laughs too} "Alright then, Garth. Down one more time and this will be it. Right?"
Garth: "Sure thing, Wayne."
{The commercial break seems to last forever.}
Wayne: "Sorry we took so long. We ummm... ran into a slight snag. It appears that MS won't give us any more access codes for 6 months."
SuperMicro's 370DLE (ServerWorks ServerSet III LE Chipset) appears to be the low price point for these, with two 64 bit, 66MhZ PCI slots and a 4-slot 32-bit PCI bus, starting around $270 street price. Requires ECC registered SDRAM but supports up to 4GB of it, and up to dual Intel P3/933s.
100GB harddrives, $285 each on pricewatch. Attach them to a 3Ware IDE RAID card, wrap a dual PIII around it, and you've got a decent file server $5000.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:I have a better idea...
by
JoeShmoe
·
· Score: 2
Oh, and one more thing...because you are working with optical media you have a far less likely chance of data failure than with a bunch of expensive hard drives. Really all you have to worry about is fire and you can easily make a complete backup of the entire system by just buying another spindle of CDs/DVDs and a nice standalone burner.
What I would use this system for is creating a single media center for my entire family. Everyone would give me their records/tapes/CDs, I would convert them to MP3s and burn them to the collection. They would give me their video tapes/DVDs, I would encode them as DivX or something and burn them to the collection
Then any time they wanted to watch or listen to any record, tape, CD, video, or DVD it would be as close as the nearest computers (or entertainment center by making a nice TV-out PC). The originals could all go into storage in a nice, safe, dry place.
- JoeShmoe
-- --
I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Re:I have a better idea...
by
JoeShmoe
·
· Score: 2
Well, if you took your own thumb out of your ass and used it to thumb through a CD burner manual you would find that any modern CD-R/RW drive can record data instantly in UDF packet format. So to the users it would look just like a normal hard drive. Since DVD-R/RW/RAM uses UDF by default this is even easier.
Not to mention, the intent was to migrate an entire collection of data that would be offline storage to online storage without wasting hard drive space. If the data is a bunch of audio or video files it is pointless to have read/write access since the data doesn't change. If you need to "delete" it you can take the CD/DVD out of the unit.
- JoeShmoe
-- --
I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Re:I have a better idea...
by
JoeShmoe
·
· Score: 2
I said CDs OR DVDs...the carousel could mix and match any type of disc you want just like the home theater versions (you can put CDs or DVDs in your Sony SmartFile and it will play either one). And as the above posted said, there are disc formats the same size that can holds GB of information.
But you are still wrong that there is any sort of filesize limitation. The filesize limitation is a function of the Linux thinserver, not the disc hardware. After all, any modern hard drive can only store 1/6 of its data per platter but you don't have to worry about that, do you?
If you wanted to save a file larger than 700MB then the thinserver would just have to know to split it into multiple CDs but present the file as a single directory entry (file.mpg instead of file0.mpg file1.mpg and file2.mpg).
- JoeShmoe
-- --
I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
A carousel that holds 200-300 CDs or DVDs (just like they have for home theaters for around $800)
Sort of like the stuff PowerFile makes. (http://www.dvdchanger.com)
Add to it room for at least two slot-load drives (although four would be even better, one in each corner) so you can access at least two CDs at any given time.
Throw in a Linux thinserver (like the stuff Linksys or any number of companies use) to manange the contents of each CD/DVD.
Result? Over 1TB of storage for around $1000. The only catch is that it is not meant for more than a handful of users at a time.
But considering what an equivalent RAID would cost it doesn't seem like a bad idea. You could put every file you've ever downloaded into one box and each CD/DVD could show up as a separate directory on one master volume. Imagine that. Near-instant access to TB of info.
If you use DVD-ROM drives, it's 1TB of read-only storage but if you use DVD-R/RW/RAM drives then it is 1TV of read/write storage! Wow, you could open your own Avalon!
Please please someone start a project to help build something like this! I desperately want one but the crappy PowerFile version is junk because it relies on crappy Windows/Mac software and ties up a whole computers just to access the damn thing. Plus having to manually mount/unmount the discs like individual drives instead of having just one volume.
- JoeShmoe
-- --
I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Well, here's how we did our 525GB server for $4200 last December (would've been 600GB, but we decided to go RAID5.)
Key parts, both hardware & software:
PIII-933
256MB PC133 SDRAM
4 Promise ATA/100 controllers
8 IBM 75GB Deskstars
3c905CTX (We don't have Gigabit yet)
Linux 2.4.x kernel
ReiserFS
Big F*cking Case
We went this way because of the nature of the files to be stored (mean size=120MB, many over 200MB), and their purpose (download once, read a few times, delete.)
NFS read times are around 20-25 MB/sec, just fine for us.
A few points:
Use only ONE drive per bus -- remember, this is IDE.
Get a Big F*cking Case (tm) with at least a 350W power supply -- you're going to get some serious heat from 9 drives (the 9th is a 45GB drive, our boot device), so you'll need some pretty decent cooling going on.
There is a hardware hack (check Tom's Hardware) that'll make the Promise ATA/100 controller into a IDE RAID controller -- try at your own risk. We didn't feel like messing with it.
If I get some pictures up, I'll post the URL later. The Qu+xum has spoken. Nyaaah!
-- DrQu+xum: Proof that the lameness filter doesn't work.
As of 10:00 (~3.25 hours after the first post I see [6:53] mentioning their getting slashdotted.) The site is still slashdotted. There's no google cache, but here's some info to hold you over (chances are it refers to the same thing Michael does):
The heart of the storage component of the Active Web infrastructure is a terabyte server which will come online in Fall 2000. Because of the cost of commercial terabyte storage systems and the need for OS-level monitoring and customization, it was decided to build the departmental terabyte server from commodity components. The terabyte server itself is a dual-processor Dell PowerEdge 2400 running BSD/OS 4.2, with a AMI MegaRAID Enterprise 1600 hardware RAID adapter (four channel, Ultra160), and a link to the gigabit switch. The disk subsystem consists of two RAID enclosures of nine, 73GB Ultra160 disks each. Tape backup support for the terabyte server is provided by a generic PC connected via a two channel Ultra160 adapter to a dual drive Hewlett-Packard SureStore 2/40 tape library with a storage capacity of 3.2TB. Terabyte file systems will be exported to departmental UNIX systems using Kerberos authentication, and to Windows machines via Samba."
This is from a ucsd "Active Web Equipment Infrastructure Plan" page.. Found by google-ing "terabyte web server SDSC" (since I couldn't find a google cache on michael's URL, but he says SDSC did it).
If anyone managed to snatch a copy of the original before we went down, that, of course would be ideal. Mirror, mirror, anyone?
Normal people, ignore below.
-----
"These are for the goat-weary:" (Though I don't know why people do this -- any decent web browser displays somewhere the target of a link before you click it. These people can viewsource and copy the format of my post for doing this, and stop cluttering your message body with plaintext URL's!)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/07/19/15542 16&cid=14
http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/Department/ActiveWeb/Backg round/Equipment%20Plan.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=terabyte+web+server +SDSC
~
Re:But I wanted a Pedabyte file server...
by
hillct
·
· Score: 2
Is a pedabyte file server a file server for pedophiles?
A Terabyte of mp3's comes out to be around two years worth of music, if you encode at 128kbps. Fill up the server, play till it ends, then replace with the one Petabyte model that will be out by then.
--
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
A potential customer of my company's (we do web hosting, amongst other things) wanted to be able to backup to tape a completely filled 11.7TB EMC unit. Nightly. A consulting firm that they hired figured it could be done using the proper type of tape (not DLT - far too slow), but it would require a pallet of tapes each night. This evidently didn't faze the customer. I don't know what they finally did, and they didn't host with us.
--
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
Actually, they wanted tape backup, which would then be stored securely offsite.
It was sort of funny dealing with them on the tour of the facility. They wanted to know how long our cooling would last if someone threw a satchel charge over our fence and took out the cooling towers. They also didn't want to host in two centers on the same coast, regardless of distance, in case a hurricane came along and took both out.
--
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
Re:This poses an interesting question...
by
dasunt
·
· Score: 3
I have 5 gigs of music myself, non-repeating (it isn't too hard to find, actually). However, here's the real hard drive killer: video.
I'm into anime (yahoo), and my full/almost full collections of Ranma (TV Seasons 1 - 5 + OAV), Tenchi, O!MG, Lodoss, Evangelion, Lain, and the like are currently killing my 40 gig hard drive. Some of the full length movies (fan-dubbed) can run to half a gig alone. That will quickly kill alot of hard drives.
OTOH, I'm seriously considering 3 40/80 gig hard drives and IDE RAID 5 for my next system.:)
Hey, I might even be able to run Office 2000 now....
This poses an interesting question...
by
Uttles
·
· Score: 2
So if you cold hold 2 years of non repeating music on a $5000 file server, would you actually do it? Think about it, how much time would you have to invest to actually go find 2 years worth of MP3s that aren't the same. I have about 10GB myself and I still haven't gone through all of them to remove the duplicates. Anyway, forget about this making better radio stations or whatever, even if they wanted to broadcast using mp3 or some other compression format, they wouldn't use more than 50 songs, just listen to any station out there... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
~ now you know
What you could do with a 1 Terabyte server
by
Dexter77
·
· Score: 3
Let's see what 1 Terabyte could hold:
16700 Full length MP3 albums
1430 Divx dvdrip movies with surround sound
700 Divx dvdrip movies with AC3 sound
200 DVD movies
A Guy with a T3 and 1 Terabyte fileserver could replace a fullsize videostore or even a library. Then again he could even have a radio station that would broadcast non-stop music for 2 years and none of the songs would be played twice.
Funny how the world turns around when technology advances. Few years from now and that server costs only 1000$. Then we all have our own videostores and libraries.. I wonder what happens to those public ones, that have been so popular till now.
I'd really like to read the article but it's slashdotted or traindotted but what about backups ? At least here in Hawaii the DLT drives cost a bundle and what's the use for a terabyte of data that could go away any day ?
It's like proclaiming/dev/null as my trillion-terabyte disk array.
Slashdot Mirror
But for those wanting to build a 1 TB servers, cheaper options already exist with commodity components. For example:
18(*) WD 60 GB hard drives ($2250)
3 Hotrod ATA/100 controllers ($180)
Powered enclosure ($200)
Custom extra-long IDE cables ($150)
Get a motherboard with 4 IDE channels (most "raid versions" have this) and plug 12 drives into the Hotrods, 4 into the motherboard's raid channels, and 2 into the secondary ide channel. The boot hard drive goes on the primary ide channel.
The total cost of this server is still under $3500 after supplying the rest of the computer. As long as you don't need 24/7 uptime or massive throughput, this is enough for 1 TB of directly available storage.
(*) This is a bit more than 1 TB but you have to account for space lost during formatting.
The space is an anti-lamer measure. Slashdot will put spaces in ANY long text string to break it up. Back when Slashdot was still new some lamers discovered that they could make a string 10000 characters long and force the "width" of the Slashdot window out forever. It was extremly annoying because you had to constanty scroll left and right to read the real posts in the article. These days you can't do that anymore, but you have to deal with spaces in links if the poster doesn't know how to make them real links (Hint, look up the Anchor tag, particularly the HREF option).
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
Yeah... last place I worked had 8 tape robots, with a total of *3800Tb* of storage space- yeah, 3.8 *peta* bytes. So, using your math, that array could play music for FIFTY NINE years. Hell, I might even double the bitrate, i think 30 years of music would still work out just fine!
Bah. That's IDE Raid. I can do a TB of fibre channel for that much. Bunch of Seagate Cheetahs, ICP Vortex controller, and cases from Transduction.
There are plenty of uses. I work in a radiology department where all our images are acquired digitally instead of on film. We acquire an estimated 4-5 TB worth of images each year. Our current archives (optical disk) will only hold about 1 months worth of data online before patient images get taken offline and put on a shelf. The ability to have a cheap TB online archive would mean significantly faster image retrievals when radiologists want to compare a patient's images with a previous study. Especially important when hospitals are cutting budgets back in a big way, but workloads keep going up.
"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Long Words Bother Me"
$3242.50 as of this morning. Still too close for comfort. :)
Ok, but they forgot to buy their backup system. A big server's no good if you can't get your information back after a catastrophe (e.g. is it sitting under a sprinkler head?).
Good grief, what do you back up a terabyte onto these days?
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Sweet, finally enough disk space so I can compile mozilla staticly with optimizations!
In particular, they claim to get 50 MB/sec transfer rates from their disk array. But, you can see that they also specify just a 10 MB/sec 100BaseTX ethernet; so 80% of that bandwidth is completely wasted.
I was curious what people's solutions to this are. Does one just get multiple 100BaseTX ethernet connections to a switch, or are people going Gigabit ethernet from the fileserver to the switch?
I plan to go the second route. There are many ethernet switches out there with one or two gigabit ports such as this 3COM switch. This should give 100MB/sec to the switch, and then the switch can distribute this bandwidth to all the client machines at 10MB/sec.
At least this is a reasonable stopgap until Gigabit Ethernet is more ubiquitous.
Any comments?
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
Commodity disk is $3 / gigabyte.
A quarter of that in 2003.
...and there's a space embedded in yours. Slashdot does this on purpose forsome perverse reason that nobody including the guys at Slashdot knows. C'mon guys... this misfeature has been annoying us for years. Please get rid of it!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I never doubted that there was a legitimate reason, but I hafta think there's a better way to handle it. Of course, since I don't have a suggestion, maybe I should just shut up.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
After careful consideration, I have determined that every terabyte of data you want to backup will cost roughly $5,000.
Even if you don't do incremental backups, it's still a bargain. Hell, get some more of these teraservers and do software RAID between them; this is phenomenally cheap space, folks. For the price that companies are paying for this kind of space currently, you could buy tens of terabytes of space and make it octuple-redundant and still knock a heap of cash off of your capital budget.
I guarantee you that N, the cost for however many layers of redundancy it would take to make you comfortable with using these as production servers, where N = $5,000 * your preferred number of layers, is cheaper than your Netapp filers.
A quick search on google yields this:
$20k for a terabyte of rackmountable RAID5
Believe it, folks: Terabytes really are as cheap as the Slashdot headline makes it seem like they are.
Take a look at SnapFS for Linux. You can find it on Freshmeat.
It does snapshots on top of most filesystems!
Oh, they've got that. That is a 4GB quad-CPU machine running IIS over Windows NT over quad fast ethernet serving static pages...
--The basis of all love is respect
$130 for 3x256? Nah. Pricewatch had 512MB sticks for $40 apiece.
Now I feel silly that I dropped twice that on my half gig... sigh.
-grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
1 Tb for $5000 is nice. Size is one thing, but the underlying software is another thing.
Netapp filers are expensive, but excellent because the filesystem (designed by former SGI employees, who designed XFS) rocks. It's fast, it's damn reliable, and the "snapshot" feature kicks ass. Also, their NFS implementation works flawlessly (and this is a *rare* thing) .
So SDSC has a nice project on the hardware part, but I wouldn't trust them for production servers.
-- Pure FTP server - Upgrade your FTP server to something simple and secure.
{{.sig}}
Hmm.. A Terabyte fileserver under 5000 bucks, that's easy (unless you are a SCSI freak):
:)
- 180$ for Motherboard ABIT KT7A-RAID
- 138$ for 1GHz Thunderbird
- 130$ for 3 * 256Mt Dimm PC-133
- 71$ for GeForce 2 mx (Overkill for a fileserver)
- 83$ for 10GB MAXTOR (for booting
- 38$ for A CD-Rom drive (might be needed when installing OS)
- 51$ for Inter EtherExpress PRO100
- 58$ for HTP370 IDE Raid controller
- 290$ for BIIIG Case
- 2900$ for 10 * MAXTOR 100GB
- 145$ for 10 * IDE Rack (It is nice to have a cooler for each HDD)
Total: 4085$ for Big Ass Fileserver
This leaves us 900$ (plus discount) for extra stuff like gigabit ethernet, monitor, keyboard and mouse etc.
- Raynet --> .
Wayne and Garth, computer geeks, in an MS dominated world. (In some twisted alternate reality.)
Wayne: "Hi, everyone. Today, we're gonna make a cheap 1TB file server"
Garth: "That's right. We're going to be using the new Windows XP OS."
Wayne: "Yes, Apple's stuff is too proprietary. MS is the open alternative."
Both: "MS rules. Apple sucks. MS rules. Apple sucks."
Wayne: "Alright, that was cool. Anyway, we've got an Intel chip {ed note: No AMD, either}, some RAM, case, power supply. We've just got one drive hooked up to see if this thing will boot."
Garth: (Turns on power) "Alright Wayne, I'm installing XP. It will take a while. Commercials?"
Wayne: "Yeah, we'll be right back."
{Commercials}
Wayne: "Alright, we're back. Had to call MS to register, but we're up. Everything looks good. It's a little slow, so we're going to add some memory while we add drives."
{Time passes}
Garth: "OK. Well, XP says that we need to re-register. Commercial?"
Wayne: "Alright."
{Commercial}
Wayne: "Well, the nice lady at MS chastised us for changing our system, but she let us off with a warning." {W&G both laugh} "Anyway, we've got a new registration code and we're well on our way to 1 TeraByte of storage!"
Both: "Woohoo! MS Rules. MS Rules."
Garth: "Alright, so we're up to 256 MB of RAM, 200GB of hard disk space. We'll add a new controller, add some more memory since this thing still seems a little slow and we'll be right back."
{Time does its thing}
Wayne: "OK, we're back. Had to call MS again. They were a little peeved this time." {Shoots Garth a knowing look and both kind of chuckle} "Anyway, they were gracious enough to let us have another registration code. Thanks, Bill." {Laughs}
Garth: "Yeah, and someone called and wanted to know why we need 1TB of storage."
Wayne: "Yeah, like that's not obvious. Between us and all our friends, we've been to every major rock concert in a 500 mile radius of Chicage for about 10 years now."
Garth: {Whispering, looking furtively around} "And, even though nobody knows..."
Both: {Yelling in glee} "We've taped every show."
Wayne: "Thousands and thousands of hours of rock. We're going to rip 'em all - Hey, Garth, 'Rip em all', is that a Metallica album?"
Garth: {chuckles} "Good one, Wayne. Good one."
Wayne: "Thanks. Anyway, we're going to rip 'em all, catalog 'em, rate 'em, and listen to 'em until we get sick of 'em."
Garth: "OK Wayne. Things look good. It's still a little slow. Maybe a faster chip and some more RAM. Perhaps we should've gone SCSI. It should be alright for just serving MP3's, though."
Wayne: "OK. We'll be right back."
{Time, again}
Garth: "We're back. Wayne's getting some water. He got a little hoarse begging MS for another activation code. For a minute, it looked like we weren't going to get it, but Wayne talked 'em out of one. Here he is now."
Wayne: "Thanks, Garth. It's alright, just some red tape. No problems. MS rules!"
Garth: {Sounding not so sure} "Yeah, MS rules!"
Wayne: "OK, Garth what do we have?"
Garth: "We got a faster chip, we're up to 512MB of RAM, and..." {drumroll} "...we've got 1 TeraByte of storage!!"
Wayne: "Alright, Garth. Party on. Are we ready to serve up some MP3's?"
Garth: "No. I think we're going to need to up the RAM again, this thing is still slow. Also," {Laughs ruefully} "We don't have a network card yet. No sound card, either."
Wayne: {laughs too} "Alright then, Garth. Down one more time and this will be it. Right?"
Garth: "Sure thing, Wayne."
{The commercial break seems to last forever.}
Wayne: "Sorry we took so long. We ummm... ran into a slight snag. It appears that MS won't give us any more access codes for 6 months."
Garth: "Bummer, dude!"
SuperMicro's 370DLE (ServerWorks ServerSet III LE Chipset) appears to be the low price point for these, with two 64 bit, 66MhZ PCI slots and a 4-slot 32-bit PCI bus, starting around $270 street price. Requires ECC registered SDRAM but supports up to 4GB of it, and up to dual Intel P3/933s.
100GB harddrives, $285 each on pricewatch. Attach them to a 3Ware IDE RAID card, wrap a dual PIII around it, and you've got a decent file server $5000.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Oh, and one more thing...because you are working with optical media you have a far less likely chance of data failure than with a bunch of expensive hard drives. Really all you have to worry about is fire and you can easily make a complete backup of the entire system by just buying another spindle of CDs/DVDs and a nice standalone burner.
What I would use this system for is creating a single media center for my entire family. Everyone would give me their records/tapes/CDs, I would convert them to MP3s and burn them to the collection. They would give me their video tapes/DVDs, I would encode them as DivX or something and burn them to the collection
Then any time they wanted to watch or listen to any record, tape, CD, video, or DVD it would be as close as the nearest computers (or entertainment center by making a nice TV-out PC). The originals could all go into storage in a nice, safe, dry place.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Well, if you took your own thumb out of your ass and used it to thumb through a CD burner manual you would find that any modern CD-R/RW drive can record data instantly in UDF packet format. So to the users it would look just like a normal hard drive. Since DVD-R/RW/RAM uses UDF by default this is even easier.
Not to mention, the intent was to migrate an entire collection of data that would be offline storage to online storage without wasting hard drive space. If the data is a bunch of audio or video files it is pointless to have read/write access since the data doesn't change. If you need to "delete" it you can take the CD/DVD out of the unit.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
I said CDs OR DVDs...the carousel could mix and match any type of disc you want just like the home theater versions (you can put CDs or DVDs in your Sony SmartFile and it will play either one). And as the above posted said, there are disc formats the same size that can holds GB of information.
But you are still wrong that there is any sort of filesize limitation. The filesize limitation is a function of the Linux thinserver, not the disc hardware. After all, any modern hard drive can only store 1/6 of its data per platter but you don't have to worry about that, do you?
If you wanted to save a file larger than 700MB then the thinserver would just have to know to split it into multiple CDs but present the file as a single directory entry (file.mpg instead of file0.mpg file1.mpg and file2.mpg).
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
Combine:
A carousel that holds 200-300 CDs or DVDs (just like they have for home theaters for around $800)
Sort of like the stuff PowerFile makes. (http://www.dvdchanger.com)
Add to it room for at least two slot-load drives (although four would be even better, one in each corner) so you can access at least two CDs at any given time.
Throw in a Linux thinserver (like the stuff Linksys or any number of companies use) to manange the contents of each CD/DVD.
Result? Over 1TB of storage for around $1000. The only catch is that it is not meant for more than a handful of users at a time.
But considering what an equivalent RAID would cost it doesn't seem like a bad idea. You could put every file you've ever downloaded into one box and each CD/DVD could show up as a separate directory on one master volume. Imagine that. Near-instant access to TB of info.
If you use DVD-ROM drives, it's 1TB of read-only storage but if you use DVD-R/RW/RAM drives then it is 1TV of read/write storage! Wow, you could open your own Avalon!
Please please someone start a project to help build something like this! I desperately want one but the crappy PowerFile version is junk because it relies on crappy Windows/Mac software and ties up a whole computers just to access the damn thing. Plus having to manually mount/unmount the discs like individual drives instead of having just one volume.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
"The computer you want always costs $5000".
If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.
That's easy, but how about building a webserver that can survive the Slashdot Effect for $5000?
This is the place where you write something that will make you seem like a complete idiot.
Key parts, both hardware & software:
We went this way because of the nature of the files to be stored (mean size=120MB, many over 200MB), and their purpose (download once, read a few times, delete.)
NFS read times are around 20-25 MB/sec, just fine for us.
A few points:
- Use only ONE drive per bus -- remember, this is IDE.
- Get a Big F*cking Case (tm) with at least a 350W power supply -- you're going to get some serious heat from 9 drives (the 9th is a 45GB drive, our boot device), so you'll need some pretty decent cooling going on.
- There is a hardware hack (check Tom's Hardware) that'll make the Promise ATA/100 controller into a IDE RAID controller -- try at your own risk. We didn't feel like messing with it.
If I get some pictures up, I'll post the URL later.The Qu+xum has spoken. Nyaaah!
DrQu+xum: Proof that the lameness filter doesn't work.
This is from a ucsd "Active Web Equipment Infrastructure Plan" page.. Found by google-ing "terabyte web server SDSC" (since I couldn't find a google cache on michael's URL, but he says SDSC did it).
If anyone managed to snatch a copy of the original before we went down, that, of course would be ideal. Mirror, mirror, anyone?
Normal people, ignore below.
-----
"These are for the goat-weary:" (Though I don't know why people do this -- any decent web browser displays somewhere the target of a link before you click it. These people can viewsource and copy the format of my post for doing this, and stop cluttering your message body with plaintext URL's!)
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=01/07/19/1554
http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/Department/ActiveWeb/Back
http://www.google.com/search?q=terabyte+web+serve
~
We need all the disk space we can get for our spell checkers now that there are so many new words in the english language.
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
OK, so $5000 is a good price point but a terabyte really isn't enough space these days. There's more porn out there in the workd than that...
On the bright size, this machine just MIGHT have enough disk space to allow us to install thenext release of Windows (after XP).
Oh, wait, maybe it won't matter because by that point Windows will be a remotely hosted subscription service.
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
They were planning on having a presence in two data centers, with mirroring between the two. This was a Fortune 10 company - they could afford it.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
A Terabyte of mp3's comes out to be around two years worth of music, if you encode at 128kbps. Fill up the server, play till it ends, then replace with the one Petabyte model that will be out by then.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
A potential customer of my company's (we do web hosting, amongst other things) wanted to be able to backup to tape a completely filled 11.7TB EMC unit. Nightly. A consulting firm that they hired figured it could be done using the proper type of tape (not DLT - far too slow), but it would require a pallet of tapes each night. This evidently didn't faze the customer. I don't know what they finally did, and they didn't host with us.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
It was sort of funny dealing with them on the tour of the facility. They wanted to know how long our cooling would last if someone threw a satchel charge over our fence and took out the cooling towers. They also didn't want to host in two centers on the same coast, regardless of distance, in case a hurricane came along and took both out.
If you can't beat them, embrace and extend them.
I have 5 gigs of music myself, non-repeating (it isn't too hard to find, actually). However, here's the real hard drive killer: video.
I'm into anime (yahoo), and my full/almost full collections of Ranma (TV Seasons 1 - 5 + OAV), Tenchi, O!MG, Lodoss, Evangelion, Lain, and the like are currently killing my 40 gig hard drive. Some of the full length movies (fan-dubbed) can run to half a gig alone. That will quickly kill alot of hard drives.
OTOH, I'm seriously considering 3 40/80 gig hard drives and IDE RAID 5 for my next system. :)
Does anyone know how the speed of this system would compare to one using SCSI drives instead of IDE drives?
see a Text Widget
Hey, I might even be able to run Office 2000 now....
So if you cold hold 2 years of non repeating music on a $5000 file server, would you actually do it? Think about it, how much time would you have to invest to actually go find 2 years worth of MP3s that aren't the same. I have about 10GB myself and I still haven't gone through all of them to remove the duplicates. Anyway, forget about this making better radio stations or whatever, even if they wanted to broadcast using mp3 or some other compression format, they wouldn't use more than 50 songs, just listen to any station out there...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ now you know
Let's see what 1 Terabyte could hold:
16700 Full length MP3 albums
1430 Divx dvdrip movies with surround sound
700 Divx dvdrip movies with AC3 sound
200 DVD movies
A Guy with a T3 and 1 Terabyte fileserver could replace a fullsize videostore or even a library. Then again he could even have a radio station that would broadcast non-stop music for 2 years and none of the songs would be played twice.
Funny how the world turns around when technology advances. Few years from now and that server costs only 1000$. Then we all have our own videostores and libraries.. I wonder what happens to those public ones, that have been so popular till now.
It's like proclaiming /dev/null as my trillion-terabyte disk array.
Less than 10 comments at 8:00 am EST and the sight is unreachable. Look out Code Red Worm, The Slashdot Effect is not to be trifled with!