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Infocom's Dave Lebling Interviewed
flip-flop writes: "The Adventure Collective has an interview with Dave Lebling, of olde Infocom fame. The quite lengthy Q&A covers topics such as the early days of Infocom, what Dave is doing these days, and even the origin of the name "Zork." A must-read for anyone old enough to remember those legendary text adventures ... *sigh* Those were the days: 'Get up. Turn on light ...'"
There is a bulldozer outside.
I tend to think of Diablo as a roguelike you can actually win.
Is it just me or do all of the text based roguelike authors seem to have some dread fear that someone somewhere might win the game?
I especially remember rogue (I still play it once in a while) where it seems like anytime your character starts doing good (you find the two handed sword, a ring of rust resistance (or whatever it's called), and some nice armor the RNG will decide to do you in and stop putting food on the levels, leaving your adventurer to eventually starve to death or faint while fighting a dragon.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
The Z-code file for the Hitchhiker's Guide is available off Douglas Adams' web site. Download this, and buy the Activision reissue of "Classic text adventure masterpieces" and you'll have pretty much everything Infocom ever did. If you have a Pilot, put a copy of Frotz on it and you can play on the move. Some of the games have mildly annoying copy protection which means you have to look something up in the PDF manual, but by and large it's fantastic. I paid about £25 or so I think -- unfortunately I can't remember the URL, but I do remember the page was a sort of pepperminty green. Oh, and check out if-archive.
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W.A.S.T.E.
I had an idea a while ago regarding the old Infocom games.
What if you got a good narrator to record all the text from a game, and hooked up a speech-to-text engine for input. Then you could put it on a laptop, sit back in your favorite chair, put on some headphones, close your eyes and just imagine... completely and totally immersed in the story in your mind.
It wouldn't be too hard to do; the main impediment would be to get some decent voice talent to do the recordings. Otherwise, it should be doable entire with existing open source code.
(okay, there is one other problem - copyright. but maybe if this was done in an open source freely available way, they wouldn't mind...)
http://www.adventurecollective.com/articles/inter
from the interview:
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Back in the day when a decent story actually mattered. Now, you don't need an imagination -- that NVidia GForce and Soundblaster provide one for you.
Of course, you didn't have to pay artists and musicians, either.
Yes, some of today's games have good stories, but too many rely on whiz-bang graphics and sound and skimp on actual playability.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Tetris has no plot.
DooM/Quake et al never needed one, it was good that Epic realized this with Unreal Tournament.
you can't unilaterally say games suck because they don't have plots. if a game depends on its plot for part of its interest and enjoyment, and the plot is weak then yes, that is a fault.
but if it's merely extraneous,.. then that's like complaining that zork never had fancy graphics.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
At the risk of being redundant, here's where to play online INFOCOM games...h tm Java
http://infocom.elsewhere.org/ Telnet mode
http://www.saturn.powerup.com.au/ddesoto/infocom.
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Between HHGTTG, Planetfall, Zork I and II, Leather Goddesses of Phobos and Deadline, I lost many hours of my childhood. And I'll never regret it as long as I live.
Now, if only I can find that Infocom Masterpieces CD for less than the $80.00 it goes for on eBay.
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
First I disagree with an earlier comment.
Today's 'graphical extensions' of Zork might be a game like "Myst", or some of the other visual adventure games with puzzles-to-solve in the process. There are some parallels even in games like "Resident Evil" and other largely linear, puzzle-based games.
But in honesty, the beauty and genius of Infocom's games won't be replicated in a graphical gaming environment. As soon as the computer screen was doing the rendering that previously was up to the NVidia card in your head, your head didn't have to trouble itself.
Infocom games demanded that players use both their imaginations (to visualize the written word) and their problem-solving skills (to solve the myriad of problems encountered in the course of gaming).
I think that, while enormous imagination goes into *creating* today's best games, I think most require a lot less imagination on the part of the player. Games are becoming more cinematic. This isn't an entirely bad thing, but it is sad that the current generation of gamers are going to miss out on the truly rewarding experience of text-based adventure gaming.
And I still remember which so vivid clarity the profound emotion that Infocom games were able to cultivate during gameplay... I remember my abject terror when being captured by Krill's minions in "Enchanter" - madly scrambling to find a way out of the cell, only to be sacrificed on the altar by Krill himself, a glowing blade plunged into my heart. - I remember how hard I laughed when Floyd, the genius robot with the maturity of a 6-year old from "Planetfall" first starting took out a crayon and wrote his name on the elevator wall, and how I wept (WEPT you heartless cynical punkasses, copious tears!) when he sacrificed his life to help me solve the game.
Text-based systems required more of the participants, but gave back so much more to those who invested the time...Which reminds me...
When is Slashdot going to get-with-the-times, dump all this text-based news commentary crap, and GIVE US NEWS WE CAN JUST SIT BACK AND WATCH!
Interviewer: ask question
Dave: I don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps if you rephrase your statement?
Interviewer: talk Dave
Dave: You can't do that here!
Interviewer: query Dave
Dave: I don't understand the command "query".
Interviewer:bah!
Dave: I don't understand the command "bah".
Interviewer: kill Dave
Dave: A strong wind has blown out Interviewer's candle. Interviewer has been attacked by a grue for 106 points Interviewer has died!
I particularly enjoyed Dave's comments on the commercial viability of the adventure genre. As an interactive fiction designer of the MUSH/MOO flavor, my own experience tends to support everything Dave said about the gaming market today.
/are/ the character in the story. But the success of the story is dependent on your involvement in it, or your engagement by it, and Verant would never hire the enormous staff that would be necessary to weave the kinds of characters and plots together to make -every- PC involved in a good story; with that many people, even if you had the writers, you couldn't keep consistency across a universe that large. So they're reduced to 'dungeon hacks,' short-term plots with tangible rewards. To say nothing of the fact that you have know how to participate in a story without ruining it for everyone else. In MMORPGs, all of the structure that exists to do so exists in terms of 'your ability to kick the sh*t out of other players.' It'd be laughable to even try and turn something like Everquest into a viable dramatic setting, where people actually need REASONS for slaying one another.
I think a good deal of the 'problem' (if it is actually a problem) is that the audience is different. Back when the original Zorks came out -- I learned to read off of Zork I -- they were novelties. There was nothing like them. I suspect (but have no actual data) that people of all ages bought them, because home computers were new enough so that there was no generation gap yet. They really were immersive. It was and still is the best example of an on-line book where you influence the ending (remember when on-line meant 'on your computer,' in the early 80s?)
I've done a lot of work in the MUSH world with RPG systems and entirely free-form roleplaying. A quick jaunt around MUSH/MOO/MUD sites will tell you which games are popular, though. My impression is that MUDs with nothing but hack'n'slash have completely caved to things like Everquest, but MUDs were outside my expertise. The actual 'roleplaying' games, where there are no levels, no fighting, only storytelling, are numerous, but most of them are not successful. Their audience tends to be in the 14-20 age range, which makes these 'adventure' games an excellent tool for kids to learn how to write, but rarely can you find really good storytelling. The 'popular' games are based on franchises like Star Trek, Star Wars, or Anne McCaffrey's novels, and except in the case of the latter, typically have shiny buttons and 'game-like' systems that more resemble computer games than storytelling forums. These games try to be all things to all people, and inevitable fail, because a text environment simply cannot compete with Everquest or UO; their success depends entirely on the proper selection of a goal, of a forum that Everquest can't provide very well (like, for example, storytelling).
There have already been threads on how graphics have dominated the game market. So has the requirement for an online component. With the single exception of The Longest Journey, there have no 'adventure' games that aren't mostly dependent on graphics or gameplay rather than story. Myst, IMO, has been recycled and redone too many times to qualify on the same level as The Longest Journey does. And TLJ didn't sell very well in the US, unfortunately. I think the reason why games like UO and Everquest can't accomodate storytelling on a very real level -- and the reason that really good adventure games like TLJ and Zork can't ever be multiplayer and won't sell well is because a story is a very intimate process. It accomodates, at most, a small group. With a book, you're engaged by the characters in the story; in a MUSH or a Zork, you
end tirade.
i tried to go follow the link but my dented lantern had sputtered out and i was afraid i might walk into the slavering fangs of a wandering grue. Strangely enough, my sword started glowing...
e x p e c t d e l a y . c o m
Whenver I read discussions about the original implementors, there's lots and lots of reminiscing by people in my age group (er, 28-33).
But I'm curious, have any of you younger fellers played and Zorks, Enchanters, Deadline, Suspect, Starcross, Suspended, Plantefall, etc...??
I'm wondering if young gamers of today (13-18) even have the patience to play all-text games, or if the memories of Zork are unique only to a certain age group...
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https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
I was maybe 8-10 years old when Zork I was out. I remember a choose-your-own-adventure type book that came out for it, which I read and enjoyed thoroughly. I found the Zork logo (with the opening door as the letter 'O') rather inviting...
We didn't have a computer at home at that time (unless you count the Atari 2600, which I don't, though it was a lot of fun) but a friend of my mom's did. As it happened, they had Zork for their machine, which must've been an old 8086 or possibly a '286.
I couldn't get through the game to save my life. Of course, I didn't have any of the game's documentation (if there was any) but I found the game to be majorly frustrating, as the game barfed at roughly 90% of the commands I tried to give it. I could only manage to get through a very small portion of the game, and only then due to my memory of the choose-your-own-adventure, not due to any actual ability to solve problems.
I concluded that the game was a disappointment and eventually (after several days of getting nowhere) gravitated to the Space Invaders ripoff "Wavy Navy" instead. Still, I did really dig the book version...
----jjjiii
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
As I am an old MUD addict who still do the occational crusades online, I have noticed that the user-base on these things are not declining at any noticable rate. The average age of the players may be higher than in the "golden days" of text adventures, but they still do have a strong following.
FYI: I mostly play on Viking MUD - not the largest of the MUDs, but it's the one I've been hanging around. I also use Frotz - the multiplatform Z-Engine - to play Infocom games on Linux. Not to forget of course, the original text adventure "Adventure" that has always been part of the Slackware Linux distribution, and the unforgettable Foom - a text adventure based on ID Softwares Doom game, using TADS - the Text Adventure Development System.
^]:wq!^M
Zork I-III were a major disappointment. I picked up Zork (note: Not 'I') for the Apple ][ when it first hit the shelves and scampered (not ran, not shambled, not left a cycops shaped hole in the door, etc.) down to our college Apple Lab and booted up the game. I finished in about 15 minutes and was stunned how watered down it was and at how much was missing. I didn't bother to get the rest until picking up a collection of Infocom text adventures at a shop (probably for less than the Apple Zork disk cost me, not even accounting for inflation) and finished Zork II and was equally unimpressed. Haven't bothered with Zork III, but figure it's probably most of the other parts of the original VAX/PDP11 version with a couple new twists.
Did enjoy his Lurking Horror game. Living in Michigan and being somewhat snowbound for a while I really got into it. Pity some of the puzzles were so non-obvious I had to buy the clue book. Even with the clue book some puzzles still seemed completely bizzare. I blame that on Activision, tho, since I believe this was after their acquisition of Infocom and an attempt to extract more bucks out of game players (a trend that seems to continue even today in action games.)
Last Infocom game I got was DNA's Beauracracy. Too damn fun. I should pull that one out and play through it again.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
>Open browser.
The browser is now open.
>Point browser at slashdot.
I can't see any slashdot here!
>Type slashdot.org in browser.
You quickly type the information into the browser and press enter, the browser slowly... very slowly loads the web page.
>Examine browser.
The browser is currently displaying the slashdot.org home page. There is an interview here.
>Skip interview.
You don't read the interview.
>Get first post.
The first post is already taken.
You are in a well-lit room containing a mace, boots, and a plant.
>Take mace
I don't know the word "mace"
>Take boots
I don't know the word "boots"
>Take plant
I don't know the word "plant"
>quit
...
Here's a small excerpt (Formatting is a bit cruddy):
You are in a cube. In front of you is a 16" (visible) Sony monitor. In front of that is a Mitsumi keyboard and an unbranded mouse. Just to the right is a 266 MHz PC clone. The system is running a development version of BeOS R4.
There is a graphics card here.
There is a floppy disk here.
There is a note from your boss here.
There is a Hoberman sphere here.
> INVENTORY
You have a well-used satchel. Inside it are
- A set of screwdrivers
- A small telescope
- A 16M laptop RAM module
- A book on decorative knots
- A PCMCIA Ethernet card
- Last year's tax return
- A 166 MHz Pentium laptop computer
- A bottle of echinacea capsules
- Hair sticks
Your wallet contains $3200.> REPLACE KEYBOARD
You put aside the amazingly cruddy Mitsumi keyboard and substitute your favorite AT&T keyboard.
> PUT LAPTOP ON DESK
The laptop is now on the desk.
> READ NOTE
"Write a driver for this card. We'd like it in time for R4 release."
> EXAMINE GRAPHICS CARD
You are evidently the proud owner of a Yoyodyne Monstra VelocElite-LX 128-3D-AGP graphics card.
> INSERT CARD IN MACHINE
The machine emits a curious and worrying noise.
> TURN OFF MACHINE AND INSERT CARD
The graphics card is now installed in the machine.
> TURN ON MACHINE
BeOS R4(devel) boots. You are looking at a gray scale desktop.
> EXAMINE FLOPPY DISK
The handwritten label reads, "Programming docs."
>INSERT DISK AND PRINT DOCS
Nothing happens.
> INSERT DISK, MOUNT DISK, AND PRINT DOCS
The drive spins for a moment, and the command prompt returns.
> READ DOCS
I see no docs here.
> GO TO PRINTER AND GET DOCS
The printer is out of paper.
> PUT PAPER IN PRINTER
There is no paper here.
> STEAL PAPER FROM COPIER UPSTAIRS
After installing the liberated paper in the printer, you print your docs.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
Even modern adventure/puzzle games, which can be quite good (Last Express, Discworld, etc.), don't really match the level of achievement I felt when playing A Mind Forever Voyaging, for example.
I mean, one of the single most vivid memories of my youth was sitting in from of my old Commie and finally figuring out the last bit of the Babel Fish puzzle.
A measly little air frag with a railgun will never, ever equal it.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
It's interesting to see what Lebling had to say about the so-called demise of the adventure genre. I suppose he's right in some respects, but the situation is a bit more complex than that. I think what's really dying is the idea of genres themselves. I mean, categories like your tried-and-true sports and puzzles are here to stay...they're pretty defninite in form and function. But all the other genres seem to be mixing into one big pot. You've got RTS games with a hint of sim (or even FPS in some cases). You've got RPGs mixing up with action and strategy aspects. I think I've even seen a role-playing racing sim out there somewhere.
IMO the adventure genre is still alive, only it has taken on many different forms. And even if there seems to be a decline of "adventure" in today's games, I'm sure it'll come back in fashion tomorrow because the video game industry cycles. Games like Zork are simply to frickin' sweet to just fade away out of existence like that.
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"I strongly urge both the faint of heart and the faint of butt to leave the room at this time."
- Strong Bad