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Kick Your Input Device
Darkfox writes "This story from BBC News shows a new Thrustmaster device designed to let you actually carry out physical movements for input into fighting games. Looks like contortionist heaven, and the input mechanism is ... coarse to say the least, but perhaps this is just the start of the evolution of input devices?" An input device that my brother and I can agree on -- except that it only works with Playstation for now. It's nearly guaranteed to be denounced as encouraging violence and lust. Ergo, we need drivers for PCs running Free operating systems.
My bottom line is having fun when I play a game. If it involves funky dance pads, maraccas, force feedback, or even good game design, I'm all for it. I remember the old floor pad for the 8 bit NES, it was quite a workout to actually use the thing with any of the games for it (no DDR). Most everything for it was track and field games where you basically had to run in place for like 15 minutes for a single round. It was actually fun at the time (although you were *exausted* after playing a game on it).
I read the internet for the articles.
I tried out that new "up up down down left right left right A B A B" combo kick... and blew out a disk in my back. Does my insurance cover this?
BTW, we're having a Quake deathmatch this weekend. You'd better write me a scrip for some Oxycontin, just in case.
this is the bottom line...90% of video games are about ESCAPISM, not more REALISM. I love the lousy game player with a black belt comment, though, from above. Now the guy can have his revenge on the gangly geek who thrashed him at Mortal Kombat :) LMAO
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Really, what about the game providing physical punishment or feedback? The XBox will do just that.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
I could swear this looks like a cross between a Dance Dance Revolution pad and the old IR tier controller for the Genesis. I think that was called the "Intensor" or something like that.
:-)
It still looks like this won't stop me from doing a quarter circle back and a punch. Make it so that the character on screen does what *I* do, and then I'll want one. It'll make the fireball a lot more interesting, that's for sure. Something along the lines of mimicking the motions, seeing as I still can't actually blast my enemies with white hot energy emanating from my hands in real life
Raptor
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
I have the same problem with it as I do force feedback. Why on earth would you use it?
:).
If you can get the same scorces, results, and endings using a regular keyboard and mouse (or Joystick), why expend the extra effort and jump around? Purely for exercise? OK, but that's not going to attract any hardcore gamers.
If you turn off force feedback, you don't have the distraction. What does it add to the game anyway? Sure, without it the realism goes straight to hell, but if your bottom line is beating the game (or an opponent), then you like the realism of having to expend energy to be nonexistant.
Perhaps I'm just too damn lazy
-Tom
I have been dying for something like this to come on the scene. I am a gamer, and I have also been studying martial arts for over 10 years.
I study Wing Chun Kung Fu specifically, and we use a wooden dummy to practice full-force techniques on. (It is not nice to practice full force techniques on a fellow student.)
I have wanted for something like this to practice on for some time. Mind you, what would be perfect for me is one that offered real world resistance. That is, you could whack it full-force like you do on a wooden dummy. You cannot do this with the infra red device, because there is nothing to physically hit. (And if you think you can throw full force punches and kicks against air, you either don't know what you are talking about, or you have wrecked your knees and elbows already.)
I have heard of a similar game to this in Japan that uses a stick as opposed to parts of the body.
All that said, I would use it because it would be fun, and keep me up with my training. To be certain, it will be a long time before the moves are accuately translated to the game. (I cannot for the life of me see some martial arts moves being picked up properly by this device.)
As for not attracting hard-core gamers, perhaps you have never been in play wrestiling matches with hard-core gamers.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
...Just recently at Dave and Buster's.
It's a virtuacop style plastic-gun-shooter, but it can track your movements, allowing you to duck, dodge, etc.
Pretty cool stuff, but even with all this technology, they still don't make
game guns with trigger switches that feel realistic.
C-X C-S
I don't recommend it. The one time I did it, I had to buy a new keyboard and a new keyboard drawer. Kicking the PC case produces a much more satisfying thud, but is pretty hard on the hard drive.
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
They already have that, it's called "methadone" and is available at a rehab near you! ;-)
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
I knew all the trade rags, and general interest magazines were like this (basically, industry payola for column inches), but BBC News? Somehow I thought they still had journalistic integrity :-P
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
#include "disclaim.h"
"All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
They should work with that thing, right?
N64/PSX to PC USB converter
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...but didn't you say it was Playstation only? What about PCs running non-free operating systems? After all, Windows *is* the biggest gaming market.
This is the attitude that pisses me off most and makes me ashamed to be a Linux user. We expect everyone to cater to us and cry foul when a *company* whose purpose is to *make money* does not bow to our every demand.
wolf31o2 Developer, Gentoo Linux Games Team
This:
h tm l
http://slashdot.org/articles/01/06/03/1520239.s
Slashdot article talked about a controler that would give the user electric shocks as feedback. I cannot find anything on the Mad Catz site to support this, nor anywhere else.
So why should I believe this article?
All you do punch and kick air. Blehhh.
When I first saw the picture and read "presure sensors" I thought the poles were like those martial arts exersise poles. If my martial arts friend saw it, I know he'd think the same and have one (or both) of those poles kicked clean out of its pad and smashing into the far wall. There goes the warranty!
All you really do is kick air and break beams between them (I know there is a "break wind" joke in there, but I can't think of it right now.
Besides, it wouldn't take long for a lazy bum (like me) to figure out how to just stand there and pass my hands between the appropriate beams at just the right times. Purpose defeated.
OTOH, If they were to devise a real pole you could actually kick and punch -- That would be something!
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The good:
.. make the special moves easy to execute, and you kill your dedicated user base. Sure, the reacreational users might not appreciate this, but as the saying goes, 20% of your user base (your heavy users) is 70% of your profit, in the form of the merchandising and spinoffs and such. So, while this thing might be fun for the uninitiated, the afficionado will hate the fact that any joe shmoe now knows how to execute the 15 hit combo without having to proove his dedication to the game via practicing the button sequences. Nenermind that bigger or more agile (or whatever) people now have an advantage, totally killing the attraction of games for the geek set that loved games for the fact that it gave them the opportunity to 'kick anyone's ass', regardless of size. Thats the beauty of games .. you can compete with someone regardless of their physical or (to a lesser degree) mental level.
The gadget is designed to aid players of fighting and boxing games who typically have to hit several buttons in sequence on a joypad to perform a combination or special move that could knock out or maim an onscreen opponent. Sounds good to me.
The thing you're missing is that the complicated button sequences are designed to seperate the amateurs from the pros. The complication is the challenge of the game
Anyhow, yes it's got gee-wiz factor, but it totally kills the idea behind games, if you ask this fighter-game veteran.
On a side note, can you imagine having two of these things in the same household; seeing two guys kick the air between each other, with their eye on the screen to see what's happening is an absolutely priceless mental image. Why not just wrassle like real boys (and men) do?!
"Old man yells at systemd"
Hahaha! Oh yeah, I know that the average console/PC gamer geek is just /dying/ to get out of his chair or couch and perform the moves for real.
I'm sure the demographics of 'person who likes to tae-bo' and 'person who loves playing fighting video games' have a sizable intersection set! HA!
What's next? Drugs that look, taste, feel like the real thing, but without the fun high or addiction?
"Old man yells at systemd"
If you want to get realistic feedback, just go get in a real fight. Instant load times, and the feedback's about as realistic as it gets!
That's one area where arcade games still have an advantage over home games. They can more easily have unique controllers and interfaces that would require a home player to buy special equipment to have.
Free Hans!
errr, hit enter too soon while filling out the post, the text I mentioned is:
The Activator was Sega's attempt at a "virtual reality" interface for the Genesis. It was a flat, octagonal piece of plastic and wires that translated the movement of someone standing inside it into movement in a game. Control was clumsy and imprecise, and after a few frustrated minutes of play, the urge to sit down and pick up a gamepad is nearly uncontrollable.
This thing is weak. Back in the day there was a controller called "The Activator" for the Genesis that set up as a large, nearly flat hexagon on the floor. The hexagon would send up a grid of infrared beams, and could detect when beams were broken.
Of course, making it affordable meant that the technology was not up to snuff, so it never really worked worth a damn.
There is a short description of the Activator in the classic gaming museum. I ripped the text and posted it below:
psxndc
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You bet I remember that one. A buddy and I used to go to the arcade and play every other weekend. A good amount of the time the machine was broke - it just couldn't take the abuse. Too bad - it was cool!
The only complaint about it really, was that we'd keep putting in quarters, and beating the hell out of the machine - eventually, our knuckles couldn't take it. The rubberized surface on the buttons begins to tear up the skin, and makes ya look like you've taken on a brick wall recently. Ouch. ;-)
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
If someone markets this properly, they could have something going for them. Most geeks won't use it (or will they - not sure if I find it interesting enough to buy it, but conceptually I like the idea of getting a workout while I play games :-) It would never be a huge hit, IMHO, but if they bundle the proper games with it, and hit the heath and weight loss crowds with it, they could make some bucks... Just my opinion, of course. Which is pretty much worthless ;-)
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Something in this article probably has the answer to using this with that OS you all seem to like. I know I've seen wiring diagrams to hook Playstation controllers up to your parallel port (see? it is good for something) as well as N64, SNES, NES, Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, Atari, etc. controllers. There was also a driver for Windows to support them all, and a joystick driver for Linux that also supported them. Too bad I can't remember where...
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Tetris, arguable the most popular and broadly appealing game of all time, has _nothing_ to do with reality.
Unless you want to do logisitic engineering.
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don't forget the great framespeed!
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I seem to be the kind of guy who likes the kind of girls who don't like the kind of guys like me. :0)
so in other words, you're like most guys...
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Is that my hands are too big for the controls on most game consoles. If this system is designed to be used by a small to average sized adult, I might actually be able to get past the third level on one of these games.
It was Jane Fonda in Barbarella!
Nancy Sinatra, indeed!
(pauses and waits for the uncultured people to think 'who?')
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"Information wants to be paid"
This story from BBC News shows a new Thrustmaster device designed to let you actually carry out physical movements for input into fighting games.
Oh man...someone needs to program a virtual Dammit Doll for this. Instead of whacking the crap out of a small DD, punch the crap out of a big (virtual) one!
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There's a pretty nice arcade at this casino close to town-- $6 for 2 hours unlimited. For this game two players face a screen, each at a 30 degree angle to it. A box between the players has 2 vidcams, one for each player. All movement and character selection is done by stepping forward or back out of a circle. Punches, jumps, crouches, and kicks are all valid moves, and three rounds can be pretty exhausting when you're not 8 yrs old any more. Because it's using some AI (presumably zones--I got told to "get back in the circle" more than once) some of my moves didn't register like my swinging haymaker and my tiger style.
But its fun--it's just sad that we're not up to "beat the hell out of an animatronic robot" that would represent the moves of the other player. Because it's not the same punching air when there's no contact at the end of a move. You'd get people shouting their battle cries and heeeeyaa! once that's established.
But check out the flashy VR sections of the arcades--sometimes they're actually kinda cool. My other fave that I didn't try was some lame dance game, but the attract mode demo was loud and obnoxious enough that I didn't have to go "werk my movez." Oh, yah, it's good date stuff too--skirts and motorcycle games...
Scarce, scared, scarred, sacred... -Col. Bruce Hampton
I seem to remeber there was a similar system for Genesis/SNES a few years back. I forget who made it, Madcatz I think, it cost like 79.99. It was a ring that you setup on the floor it fired infrared beams upward at the ceiling(and therefore required a somewhat flat aka NON-stucco or pithched ceiling). I seem to remember results were mixed(I was working in a game store at the time), again depending on the ceiling. I do remember one kid who bought one said it worked great, cause his parents had a mirror on the ceiling of the living room(shudders at image that evokes remembering what kids parents looked like)
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Personally, I'll stick with my Dance Dance Revolution pads.
These can be had for around $15 each if you know where to get 'em...and I'm still on my first set of pads after four months of usage.
The game itself is quite a workout...especially after a few hours of play on the harder levels.
That is, assuming you can handle the fact that all your friends will be laughing at you the first time they see the game. At least until they play it. Most people get hooked at that point.
By now, most everyone knows about Dance Dance Revoultion (DDR). However, this used a press-down pad -- which worked well for the most part, but required accurate stepping/stomping quickly on the pad to get the game to work. It also required a bit of effort to get the pads to stay put, and was clumsy at times.
Now IR... There's already another dancing game called 'Para Para Paradise' (PPP) in Japan (roughly a year old) which utilizes IR beams. Instead of stepping on a pad, you swing your body and break the IR lines -- making smooth and catchy moves. (it's also by Konami -- go figure)
Unlike in DDR, where you end up stomping a lot to get the higher scores, the main emphasis in 'PPP' is to look/feel cool, and the fact that your feet dont' have to stomp means it's a low impact activity.
It's great to see more and more games utilizing IR, as this opens up the door for many more types of games that we've never seen before. Ever think you'd play a first-person volleyball game? While certainly requiring more IR beams, it's now a possibility.
PPP is a year-old game, but it's still just as enjoyable (if not more) than DDR. Here's the main page at Konami and some screenshots
Of course, all of these interaction-based games work only as well as the effort you're willing to put into it to make it a real experience for you. I must say I've committed the simulation-game sins -- playing DDR with a gamepad, and playing PPP while sitting down and waving a ruler over the IR ports... LOL.
What if I want to program it to handle the complex moves of Mortak Kombat? I have a feeling I'd be there for hours waving my hand in the air and kicking in various combinations to get the thing to register the proper joystick button sequence to replicate the move on screen. This is certainly a vary rough first cut at the next evolutionary step in game control and I expect we will see better products become availble over time but as much as the idea is a cool one I expect the novelty of this product will wear off fact (until one can be created which is easier to program)
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
and they want people to use this with _computer games_?
Combine this with the impact of playing games in general and it makes you wonder just how badass we might all become! Just imagine...brains of a geek, moves of a streetfighter, reflexes of a rabbit. But, like all superheroes, we would be powerless without something, and in our case...caffeine!
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who trips and goes headfirst into the television.
if it doesn't punch back!
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
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Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
So this is what Thrustmaster has been reduced to I guess. They used to make the coolest joysticks around, I bought one from them many years ago. Cost me ~$120, it was made of metal, and required 15lbs of force to push it forward. That was the low end too, they sold a full cockpit for the real flight sim enthusiast. My guess is that there was a change of management a while back, the stuff they're producing now is as cheap as anything else. It's a sad day when Microsoft is producing the best joysticks around.
Obviously, you aren't paying attention to what TM is doing for the high end market.
Evidently I wasn't, I was just paying attention to what I saw in stores. Since I bought my stick retail so long ago, I thought it was a fair enough method of measurement. Thanks for the info, I am pleased to see they're still producing quality products somewhere down the line.
The point they seem to be missing is that most video gamers are not capable of the moves they do in video games. Fast paced fighting of any sort requires training and a degree of athleticism that most gamers likely don't have (Katz's assertions not withstanding). Ultimately these video games are about fantasy. Look at any decent combo in Tekken and try to figure out how to replicate it...it won't be easy. And if your motions don't actually need to replicate the moves in the games, then what's the point? Some kid will merely think he can fight like a Shao Lin, right up until he gets his ass kicked as he realizes his Riverdance-like moves don't actually do any damage in the analog world.
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Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
That's why methadone clinics are so controversial. The migration from other drugs to methadone is easy enough, but getting people off the methadone is very very hard. There's no high, but the people are still addicted - they need the drug to feel normal, and addictions to ANY drug screws up your body something fierce.
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You know, I think this pins down what bugs me about the game industry. The prevailing attitude seems to be that video games are all about making them as much like real life as possible. "Realistic" 3D graphics, immersive sound, realistic physics, and now these controllers.
Video games were _never_ about simulating reality (with the exception of simulators, and they are almost a whole seperate category). They are about using an understandable metaphor (like two guys fighting, or flying a spaceship, or Pac Man) to make a fun, abstract experience. Tetris, arguable the most popular and broadly appealing game of all time, has _nothing_ to do with reality.
I believe you are slacking off in your duties. Posts identical to the above should be attached to 99% of the messages on here.
m00.
As some of you may remember, the original NES came with two game pads, a light gun and a Robotic Operating Buddy (ROB) (Seen Here with the powerglove).
ROB was an interesting device, it had sensors which recieved signals from the screen, and it could move it's hands left or right and pick up or drop two gyroscopes. The gyroscopes could be dropped into a little motorized thing that spun them or they could be dropped onto two buttons. When playing a game that used ROB you'd put the second controller in a little holder on ROB that would translate those gyros that were dropped on the buttons into controller button presses.
So, during ROB enabled games, you'd hold the first controller, and issue commands to the game that would be translated into light signals that would be sent to ROB, who would pick up, turn, or drop gyros at your command. In the end it was a lot of work to simply push one of two buttons, and the ROB games inevitably sucked. Eventually, players would become so annoyed that they'd simply grab the second controller and push the buttons on their own, completely ignoring cute little ROB.
The moral? Well, making it a hassle to push one or two (or four) buttons doesn't a cool controller make.
Second, this thing is using a decent amount of technology to detect body movements, but it will inevitably make some mistakes. Think about the difference between typing and using speech recognition software... With typing, errors are your own fault, but they are often associated with the motor feedback associated with a miskey. With speech, you can say the word properly but the machine may misinterpret your speech. Unfortunately, this occurs un a probabilistic fashion, and is not easy to detect. Imagine if 1 percent of the time that you pressed a key on your keyboard it would be mapped to another key. It would be infuriating. Relying on a probabilistic detector is bound to lead to frustration.
Check out this PDF file for more on speech recognition errors.
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