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What Makes a City Appealing to High-Tech Workers?
WGR writes "The City of Ottawa, Canada is starting to re-write its Official Plan, the "charter" for a city. [A few weeks ago] we had a 5 day Smart Growth Summit that was webcast online with discussion groups and web interactivity. Ottawa is fairly strong in the high-tech sector as it is, with NortelNetworks and JDS-Uniphase having their biggest presence here and had over a $1 billion of venture capital last year. But how do you keep a livable city when you expect to have a 50% population increase in 10 years? One idea came from Dr. Richard Florida from Carnegie-Mellon University. He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's, "Technology, Talent and Tolerance". That is, where there already is a lot of technology, where there is a rich artistic and entertainment sector, lots of educational opportunities, where there are a lot of people with similar interests and where there are people from many diverse backgrounds and lifestyles. But not necessarily low city taxes.
Do you agree, and what would be your ideal city to work in?"
Welcome to Toronto! The following is a link to an article in today's Globe and Mail (Toronto and Canadian national newspaper) talking about what causes Geeks to stay in an area, especially diversity: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlet s.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/common/FullStory.html&cf=tg am/common/FullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config& vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20010808&dateOffset =&hub=headdex&title=Headlines&cache_key=headdexCol umnists¤t_row=7&start_row=7&num_rows=1
It's not enough to avoid the coasts, or big cities. Computers themselves where invented by Alan Turing with the sole purpose of recruiting the unsuspecting to the Homosexual Agenda! Same thing for Sendmail! So it would be best to smash your computer avoid e-mail and move to Montanna and live in a bunker.
Oodles of PUSSY! That's the perfect antidote to spending eight hours a day POUNDING on one's dick to pr0n -- er, at a keyboard.
- The Neon Guild,a group of geeks. We've met twice monthly since 1995, and we have hundreds of members. It's like Cheers, only for geeks.
- The Virginia Piedmont Technology Council represents our interests (theoretically) on a legal level to the state and beyond. I have some qualms with them, but the concept is great.
- A wide variety of tech businesses populate the city, from gaming companies like Electronic Arts and (formerly) Boxer Jam to small shops like my website design firm. Not much homogeny, as a result.
- Tech non-profits like Computers 4 Kids. Geeks need an outlet in their time off, but many of us are happy to keep doing computer stuff. Being able to donate time to organizations like this is great.
But we need some changes. Like:- A wireless network. Downtown should be blanketed with 802.11b and a DHCP server to handle the users. No charge, something that the city would do as an incentive to tech businesses to set up house downtown. Not fast enough to be used as an office Internet connection, but sufficient for browsing at a café or something.
- Tax breaks for tech start-ups. We have one for personal property taxes, but the state taxes are killers. It would be nice to see a graded tax that would leave companies paying full face-value after n years.
- A clueful City Council. Most of them just don't get tech, and there's a general attitude that as goes the stock market, so goes the city's interest in having tech firms here. This is foolish, as tech firms are excellent businesses: non-polluting, compact, undemanding (ignoring my list here
:), and high-paying. If the City were simply able to react to needs quickly, instead of running a 24-month study, I imagine that things would get done more quickly.
Anyhow, that's my take on things as regards my experience with my city. YMMV.-Waldo
What the hell kind of tech job pays $10/hr?? Jesus christ, I was making more than that in high school! Don't you have minimum wage laws?
Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
Thats why I like working in Chicago - theres an excellant public transportation system. You can live anywhere from Milwaukee, WI to Gary,IN and get downtown in no more then 90 minutes. I take the 90 minute route, so 3 hours of commute sounds bad. But most places around here let you count it as work. So I get to work at 9 and leve at 3 - not bad at all
Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
An AC says:
Keep on taking in refugees and immigrants from 3rd World countries and you will have the same situation. From the recent race riots in the UK, I'd say that at least the UK is already moving into that phase now.
Actually, I live the US. My question wasn't intended to be condescending, just an attempt to spark a new topic of conversation.
Where do you get these wonderful statistics about the average lifespan of homosexuals? I'd like to see even one reference to this, regardless of how dodgy the source might be.
How about the Oxford's International Journal of Epidemiology or The CDC? If do do this Google search, you will find many articles about where the the average life expectancy of a non-HIV infected homosexual is about 42 years. =P
While it is true that women may get the disease easier, at least in Canada, the ratio of males to women who have the disease is 13:1 but that's not the case in Africa. Yet another good reason for women to be chaste and not abuse themselves with IV drugs.
There are also some nice graphs at Aids Central for those who don't want to read.
-- Drive-by TrollerWith the internet, VPNs, and the cost of office space, why don't we see more companies let most of their tech employees telecommute? Then it wouldn't matter much at all where they were located. I can do without the corporate group hugs and pep rallies (ala Steve the Monkeyboy) as well as the commute whether it be driving behind some big ass SUV or having to sit near the mutants on public transportation.
He said that "knowledge workers" want to go to places that have the 3 T's
:op
Or T3's
Sounds much like Amsterdam to me. Well protected rights for all groups. 24/7 nightlife food etc. Good power from reasonably clean sources.
:- Warp Core Breach
Oh and lots of sexy people and weed.
Not forgetting also the good bandwidth here compared to the rest of Europe. Lots of Cable and DSL. Also a company starting the Powerline based connects from the powergrid.
Small city no stress no rush.
Downside, the tax here really hurts but at least you get something for it as opposed to having it burnt up funding right terrorist groups etc.
Laterz
Drink of the day
1/2 oz goldschlager 1/2 oz tequila 1/2oz Jack Daniels. Mix and shoot.
"There is only one way left to escape the alienation of present day society:To retreat ahead of it" Roland Barthes
A few other things a local government can do.
When a local government starts to act in the interests of its local citizens, it will become more attractive to the affluent and highly mobile work force. Make that statement the core of every city council meeting.
the AC
[Ottawa? I could make a comment about warm weather year round, but there is nothing you can do about that
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Every city wants to think of itself as a new high-tech mecca, though the two that arguably have the strongest qualifications, Austin and Seattle, each have an excellent university and no state income tax. I don't know whether there's a connection, but it would be an interesting question to study.
Another interesting coincidence: both Silicon Valley and Boston have relative tax havens in their backyards -- Nevada and New Hampshire respectively.
As a straight geek one of my immediate barometers of a city or neighborhood is whether they carry Playboy, The Advocate, Dr. Dobbs and Circuit Cellar on the news stands. Basically, I'm looking for a tolerant, non-puritanical, tech literate population.
Frankly, I always look for a nearby gay enclave, its usually got all the best culture, great furniture and art, the most eclectic cuisine and in the case of West Hollywood the best tech bookstore in the LA area OPAMP books. But the main reason I like having a nearby gay enclave is that it repels moronic rednecks with ruthless efficency.
I know, I know... minimal Ricochet coverage, horrible cell reception in a lot of neighborhoods, through-the-roof rent, and horrendously rude people.
Who cares. I was born here, and while it's no place for hardware types, it's coastal, has damn near every type of restaurant available, and there's always something to do. At the end of the day, I want to leave the sysadmin work back at the office and kick back. At least I have more options than staying at home playing video games, although I'll do that pretty often as well.
Being within 40 minutes of most of your friends helps. And for me, the import shops are key. The only thing that I'd really like to see is a decent amateur 802.11 effort here. Two access points on one street and another a few miles away doesn't count.
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
Minimum wage is $5.15/hr...
Just to set a perspective I live in Atlanta, Georgia. And it is the best city I have lived in so far.
I agree with what Mu* said in general but here in Atlanta I have not really noticed the tendency to "milk to cow". For instance I live downtown with a friend of mine a stones throw from the CNN building and we only pay $1150 a month including utilities for a 2bed/2bath apartment. I think this is mainly because Atlanta just grew at a good rate with the whole boom in the 90's instead of exploding like Silicon Valley.
One of my biggest greviances with Atlanta is the lack of a decent public transport system. And by that I mean we dont have a subway, and if you live in Atlanta dont even try to say those MARTA trains constitute a subway. It only runs north/south and east/west and has way too few stops. It would be nice to have something like what Washington, D.C. has where the subway goes all the way out to the suburbs and there are parking areas at the end points.
I think a very important part of any city that wants to attract Techies is that they need to be a diverse and tolerant city. One thing I have a hard time doing is putting up with bigots/racist/holyier-than-thou types. I was raised with a philosophy of "dont knock it till you've tried it" and I try to live up to it. I believe that everyone should be able to live the way they want to live. I will not live somewhere where I am told I need to change or the people's general attitude is that I am the spawn of satan for not agreeing with them (I went through highschool once already and I would rather not do it again).
As far as taxes go I feel that anything above 30% or so is excessive unless the government can really explain it. Here in Georgia I actually lose more money to state taxes than I do to federal taxes and social security which I dont think is right... Georgia doesn't have an army last time I checked.
Wow that kindof rambled a bit.
Basically I look for interesting Technology Companies, Tolerance, Diversity, public transport, and a good education system(I will have kids one day).
Of course, with education it is not so much the city but the individual schools that are good or bad.
Rich
Well, you're almost correct. Everything is correct except for the food. The food sucks in Amsterdam to a level not matched by any European city of similar size, with the exception of cities in the Scandanavian countries.
On my last six visits to Amsterdam, I was utterly amazed at how well the Dutch can slaughter cuisines that I previously thought couldn't be messed up. Mexican Stew? When's the last time I've had Mexican Stew in Texas or Mexico? Hahahaha.
There's good Asian food in Holland. And good cheese. The bread is better than the states, but not as good as in Belgium or France. Oh yes, and if fries are your thing, nobody does fries like the Dutch. But beyond that, good luck.
For the rest of it, you're dead on, though. I truly love Holland, although I prefer Den Hague and Haarlem to Amsterdam.
--Be human.
I can do without the corporate group hugs and pep rallies (ala Steve the Monkeyboy) as well as the commute whether it be driving behind some big ass SUV or having to sit near the mutants on public transportation.
:-D (NYC)
Well then you need to move a 20 minute walk from your job like me
Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
Well first of all, I live in Ottawa. Probably the main reason why I'd be tempted to leave is for those blasted taxes that gouge out half of my paycheck every two weeks, and it is said that the salaries are relatively low up here when compared to equivalent jobs in the states or overseas. Ottawa is a huge confusing crowded overpriced city that sucks the life out of everything around it. All the surrounding cities are dull, even the once active and fruitful city of Hull is now turned into the government workers' wasteland.
The problem with these high tech fast-moving cityscapes is that they're expensive to start up and maintain, so that funding comes at the expense of other aspects of city management.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
a compUSA superstore open 24/7
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
Downsides include:
o Abundance of French people.
o Large amount of fags (I think this has to
do with #1).
FP We need more tech here.. Plus we pay the lowest tech wages in the country...
Sounds like you want everyone else to adjust to the quirks of a few people. No wonder some geeks have gotten the prima donna reps! Businesses will stay open later if it makes economic sense for them to. Unless Ottawa is going to be importing geeks by the trainload, they aren't going to make up that much of the population, so why make businesses to do things that probably won't be in their favor. Likewise, a landlord with rent control has little incentive to improve and try to attract top paying tenants. Many people move into gated comunities because of the restricted covenants. It one way to make sure that they won't have neighbors who have loud all night parties or have several cars on blocks in the front yard (at least if it's against the bylaws and they are enforced). Also, while the school computer labs with high end hardware, transportation systems, bike paths, etc. sound nice, from other posters, it sounds as if the area is already pretty heavily taxed and probably wouldn't want to pay any more. That is unless the implemented a special geek payroll tax where these workers would pay extra for the amenities used to attract the companies.
BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae? Sure theres a bunch but most geeks earn enough to see their kids are in good schools.
No advertising in the schools? Oh yeah - "Not gonna move to Ottawa - They've got Coke in their schools!" I'm sure Corel & Nortel recruiters field this issue all the time...
Bicycle paths? Aren't bicycles those things most geeks hang on walls as some sort of trophies? Sure there are some bicycling nuts but they're mostly like those silly sea kayaks in the Pacific Northwest many geeks have and only used twice in 10 years (but love to try & drop into the conversation to impress MOTAS.)
Hostility against big ISPs? Most geeks just want cheap, relaible, fast & customer service from an ISP that knows NTP from NNTP - couldn't care less if it comes from Rogers, Cox, or anyone else incl. Mom-n-Pop-ISP.
Etc.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Spending the past 33 years in Houston gives one a different opinion.
If you haven't lived here in the last 10 years, you have missed alot of changes.
If you left in the mid to late 80s, you definitely have missed many positive changes.
Houston is definitely alien to the NYC, can't own a car, take the subway, wall to wall concrete, people.
Houston is alien to the 3 hour commute, $3000 studio apartment, $500,000 starter house, San Fran bay area people.
How about
1) Suburban sprawl on both sides, with a greenbelt in the middle, and a decaying pile of city in the dead center?
2) The high tech community bordering on farmland and/or in suburban hell?
3) Strange laws that say you can't have garage sales, clotheslines, etc
4) 50%+ taxes
5) Enforced francophony
6) Lousy pick of jobs, and low pay in almost all of them
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Funny how those who expect tolerance do not have it for other people.
BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?
My guess is that we^H^H^H they like to be drunk, and up all night?
Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
to further extrapolate - a city made of La-z-boys. mmmmmmm.....
Ever stop to wonder why American neighborhoods decay in a few decades, but European cities thrive for centuries?
That's simple. Until recently, European countries have had pretty homogenious populations where the US depending on the time in history has been a pretty mixed bag. When the next wave of poor lower class people move in, they take over the older cheaper parts of town. After a certain level of newcomers, the people living in those areas that actually maintain their property eventually move out because the slobs moving into the neighborhood don't, the neighborhood goes to hell, and the property prices go down. The original occupants move to keep some of their investment and live in a decent neighborhood. This has become easier with the passage of housing anti-discrimination laws and things like section 8 housing. [Read Stern's first book to get a good first hand account of this] The gated communities with strict bylaws exist to partially combat this. All of this is also helped by the fact that the US has a ton of available land compared to Europe.
Keep on taking in refugees and immigrants from 3rd World countries and you will have the same situation. From the recent race riots in the UK, I'd say that at least the UK is already moving into that phase now.
Houston is a shithole. I grew up there for 14 years, and got out as soon as I could. Nobody moves to Houston because they want to be there. They move to Houston because of the jobs. You'll also notice that most people who live in Houston are transplants that haven't figured out how drab the place is. Besides the museum district, JSC and Enron Field, Houston has very little to offer.
Toronto:
Fifth largest City in North America by population.
The Most Culturally Diverse City in North America.
Voted Best global city for business (Fortune 96).
Ranked as the safest large metro in North America (Places Rated Almanac)
One of the best telecommunications networks in the world, with one of the highest percentage of fibre optic cable installed, and more wireless phones per capita, than anywhere in North America
North America's 3rd largest Stock Exchange by value traded.
3rd largest English-language theatre centre in the world behind London and New York
Considered "Hollywood North" by film industry: 3rd in TV and film production, and 2nd as exporter of TV programming, in North America
Toronto is the #4 of the Best Places To Live in The World (Source: Corporate Resources Group, Geneva Switzerland.)
The 4th highest concentration of commercial software companies. Seven of the top 10 IT companies have offices in Toronto. And One of North America's hottest animation centres.
Toronto has outstanding air, road and rail transportation facilities, including North America's second largest public transit system. (After New York)
Very Knowledgeable Workforce (home to 3 universities and 6 colleges - YorkU.ca, UToronto.ca...)
Excellent Tech Networking Events (SpadinaBus.com, FirstTuesday.com, ideasONTAP.com...)
Great Sport Teams and Stadiums. (Air Canada Centre, Skydome...)
Awesome Nightlife (Pubs, clubs, thedocks.com...)
As to your employer being wiser to fire the non-whatever-you-are folks and going with your sort: Post their email address and I'm sure someone would be happy to pass your comment along.
Moderators: Read the original before calling this one - I refuse to dignify it with quoting but also refuse to let this sort of garbage go unchallenged. It's on topic because it's exactly the sort of issues that make one place attractive to high-tech employers/employees & others not.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
As with any city, how much you like it depends largely on what part of it you live in and where you work.
If you want highrise buildings right next to one another, then Houston is not for you. If you want row houses next to one another, then Houston is not for you.
If you want a decent apartment or nice single family detached home, then Houston is a good choice.
My appologies for the poor housing choices your comrades made.
the language police can go after you if your website is in the province & isn't sufficiently bilingual
:)
Are you serious? What about personal/not-for-profit sites? Are you required to *know* French to live there, or what?
BTW, also lamenting the death of NYC nightlife, but Giuliani's almost gone
Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
In today's economic climate? One that has jobs
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
It comes down to one thing...Money. The more we have the better we can support our lifestyles. I fell their are a few essential things in an economic environment that can create more cashflow. 1. A competetive market. The more options we have the better. 2. Constant business growth. The more a company grows, the larger the need for more employees. 3. Great scholastic environments. This includes public and private schools for those who have children, and universities and colleges for those who have a continuing education. 4. Hospitable living communities. The more comfortable a person feels in their living arrangements the less likely they'll want to leave. These are some of the basic building blocks that will set up a thriving economy. In a competetive market the companies must have competetive wages that will attract employees. When the economy grows the need for high taxes will decline because there are more people to share the percentage increasing the total amount, lower taxes seem to really attract more people, more people means a better economy. I could go on but this has probably boring as it is by simplistic apparency.
"Coffee, it's what's for breakfast." - Dante of Angst Tech.
Houston, Texas has an extremely low cost of living when compared to the largest 25 cities in the United States.
Weather: Good all year, except hot in August, no real winter, maybe 3 freezing days per year.
Commute: Usually, you can live in an inexpensive apartment or house close to where your work.
Arts, Entertainment, etc: Diverse, with many options.
Taxes: No state income tax, no city income tax, no property tax other than real estate (which is low), state sales tax 8.25%
Housing: A 1500 square feet home costs $75,000 - $125,000
A 2500 square feet home costs $120,000 - $250,000
depending on location, age, etc.
Apartment: (decent apartments) $450/month for 650 square feet to $650/month for 900 square feet.
A big difference between Houston and other large cities is that basic things, food, eating out, clothes, gasoline, etc, are extremely low cost. Best of all, most basic food items are not taxed by the state sales tax.
As far as tech employmnt: Houston has many large IT hungry companies as well as several large publicly listed software companies.
Salaries are comparable to east and west coast, but figuring the much lower cost of living, take home after taxes + cost of living is much higher.
Environment: Contrary to the many reports of Houston pollution, actual pollution levels are below that of major US cities.
we all know chicks in the south are better lookin' with bigger racks.
and if its one thing geeks like to do, is stare at pretty women with big hooters.
Shit, did you see those...
Currently, you're being taxed to support a gagillion-dollar-a-year War on Some Drugs that accomplishes nothing but jailing people and financing government intrusion. The U.S. has the highest percentage of its population behind bars in the world, and 80% of those are in for *solely* non-violent drug offenses; who do you think is paying for all these prisons? Who's paying for all the vice squad cops, the DEA agents, the armed forces to Colombia?
If you let people ingest whatever the heck they want, and abolish the DEA, the ONDCP...FOUR OUT OF FIVE jail cells across the nation...then you might actually have some money left over to give to people who NEED medical services but can't afford them.
You do know there are POOR people in this country, right, not just 100k+ programmers who are currently out of a job?
If you can support a full-fledged war on the citizens of your own country, but balk when asked to actually help some people in need...well, fuck you then. Unfortunately, most people (voters) either do, or are too stupid to see what they're doing.
If you believe that the government has no right to collect an income tax, then I agree with you. But we both know this isn't going to happen. I can live with that. The gross misappropriation of these funds that goes on, however, is really unforgivable.
BTW, for the inevitable AC that will suggest that ending drug prohibition will strain either the existing or theoretical health system: either understand how much safer legalized and regulated drugs will be than their street counterparts, or simply assert that people who have medical problems directly resulting from drug use are forced to cover it themselves. *shrug*
Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
They may not actually do any business within the province (example a high-tech software package that is only applicable to specific engineering practices not used in Quebec) but they must support hypothetical if impossible quebecois customers.The situation for non-profit sites is less clear but is likely the same, personal sites are apparently yet to be determined.
This is all new territory for the OLF and of course they like to make up "law" as they go along but for now it's usually best just to host one's material out of province.
As to knowing French, no you're not required and indeed there are many native Montrealers who don't have a working knowledge. However to run a business it's required as the provincial government works only in French and there are laws regarding the use of French within offices over a certian size, French in business communications, etc. Certianly it makes life much easier.
Finally the majority of the population that simply doesn't speak English, particularly outside of downtown Montreal. I lived in a farm town 45 minutes North of Montreal and any unidentified English material (newspapers, catalogs, magazines) went into my mailbox, particularly if they were tech-related. I was one of the few anglophones in town, the only tech one, and the small post office knew it.
The way I explain it to visitors is that Anglophones are like spanish-speakers in Texas or Florida. There's a bunch, particularly in the city but it's a second class society with the minority newpspers, minority TV stations, etc. The west island (Isle de Montreal) is heavily anglophone and there the street language is English but it's like a suburban barrio, drive a few blocks and the stop signs revert to "Arret".
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
his name is 'drivebytroller' for god's sake. i realize what he's posting probably angers you. it angers me. but you couldn't just let it go and wait for it to be modded down? he trolled you! by responding to it, you let him win.
The fact that you think your deviant, perverted lifestyle is ok proves that you have been brainwashed. Either that or you're logging in from BizzaroWorld. So a person with high standards and a clean life is a "slug". Hmm... "Slugs" like me didn't turn a beautiful city like San Fran into a cesspool, transport and spread deadly diseases to the N. American continent, rape 13-year old boys to death, etc. Statistically, your life will be much shorter than mine due to the diseases and mental problems associated with your lifesstyle choice. I guess the "slug" will have the last laugh after all.
BTW, the PHBs at the top don't listen much to the code monkeys doing the work or the middle managers in between, so going to them is an even bigger waste of my time.
This is an Urban Legend.
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
I have been to/worked at quite a few places in the world such as Chicago (Schuamberg), San Fran (San Jose, etc), Swindon (UK), Bonn (Germany), Fort Worth-Dallas, and Cork (Ireland) to name a few. I fit somewhere in the middle as far as the "geek" factor is concerned. I like to have my computer meets and a good game of head to head Quake with some friends, and I also like the out doors (biking, climbing, hiking) and the urban nightlife (house music, clubs, etc). Basically I like what cities like NYC and San Fran offer, but without all the traffic jams and with some good weather and the great outdoors. And I have found that here in Vancouver, which is the "small big city". We have all the amenities of a big city (you know, the big concerts, the Virgin Mega stores, the big city shopping and night life) but the city has the population of less than 1 million , the air is clean, never gets too hot or too cold (all year round), world's best skiing is a quick drive (Whistler) and the traffic is MUCH better than most Amercian cities. Granted, taxes are higher, but you get a pretty decent social welfare system. If you are more of a people's person, Vancouver is your place. And all the major corps have offices here (Motorola, Intel, Alacatel, HP, Nortel, IBM, etc , etc.) not to mention the chic Yaletown with all the smaller startups and incubation facilities... And as for rent goes, you can live downtown or in the Vancouver core where it is more expensive, you can live in the surrounding regions where rent is fairly cheap.. depends on how close to the beach you want to be ;)
-farshad
...and remember in your brain boggle, wrong starts with a wubble-u.
Other elements I think are important, in order:
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
Sounds like the brainwashers did a number one you. I most techies that I know wouldn't give a shit if all the fags got AIDS and died a miserable death. They'd also like to see corporations stop spreading the bullshit about a programmer shortage so they can import "cheap" labor from Asia. I waste more time re-implementing stuff that they totally fuck up. They company would be money ahead if they just had me or any of the other native programmers do it from the beginning.
I'm so fucking sick of all this politically correct horse shit. I can't wait for China to try to nuke the coasts. They would be doing us a favor by getting rid of most of people who want special protections.
In what way has Portland's development policies not had their intended consequenses?
And, just as an FYI, the typical urban sprawl style of development is entirely an outcome of legally mandated social engineering.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire.
Ever stop to wonder why American neighborhoods decay in a few decades, but European cities thrive for centuries?
Move to Miami.
South Beach closing = 5 AM.
Downtown Closing = No such thing. Club Space stays open until 2 in the afternoon on Sundays sometimes.
Actually, I've been to Ottawa, and it wouldn't be a bad place to live and work at all. I'm married with two children, and I can't separate my requirements as a technology worker from my requirements as the parent of a family: Good schools, reasonable housing, moderate taxes. I would add to that "access to outdoor recreation" and "liveable climate," which for me means on the cool side. But those are personal preferences that have nothing to do with technology. Make the city attractive to average middle-class people and the technology workers will probably be happy. I'd suspect it would do more good to make the city attractive to technology companies.
DUCT TAPE: The Election Supervisors' Secret Weapon
That's what people here seem to be saying. Good schools, good times, low taxes, and whatever your "pet issue" is.
I think the question asker really has the bulk of the work already done in identifying some of the semi-unique techie draws, but how can you really accomplish them? A town itself usually has little to do with whether or not they become an artistic mecca or some of the other draws, and in many examples the tech would later push out thye artists or many of the other appeals of a city.
What can a city government realistically do to attract a technology economy? Well, probably it's bring the jobs there.
I live in san francisco and boulder, and silicon valley really has little current native appeal. At one point the area may have been beautiful, unique, and full of the arts. Now it is sprawling, close to the same as every other major sprawl and has pushed a majority of it's artists out of town or out of the state.
But if you work in tech silicon valley is still (or maybe was until recently) the golden fleece for high-end jobs, plenty of possibilities, and the chance to work on stuff like you have nowhere else. That's really because of the employers in the area. Take them all and move them to anchorage and I would most likely move there as much as i hate to admit it.
Boulder county is well on it's way to getting it's tech community that it decided it wanted (and trying to ruin itself oalong the way, but hell thats how it goes). The reason? They give fat, fat tax incentives to large nationals and multinationals that want to move portions of their operation there.
I mean, is there really any other way it's ever worked? I can't imagine that you could get all the workers to move there before the jobs came. In this case the chicken certainly comes first.
Good cultural opportunities. Sports, Theater, Arts.
I always feel so cultured when I watch sports. Maybe it's the beer.
BTW, why are so many Slashdotters so obsessed with drinking and partying until practically dawn?
Because it's fun?
C-X C-S
Yes, he's serious. Quebec has some very draconian language laws. No English outside buildings, and half the font size of mandatory french translations within buildings. Children whose PARENTS did not attend QUEBEC ENGLISH SCHOOLS must learn in French schools entirely in French. Packaging must be in French. Software must be produced in French, first, then the English version...
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Yeah, it's really starting to suck out there; I hate seen vast tracks of what was once very nice farmland get rolled over by some particularly ugly housing developments. Though OTOH the core of the city is very nice as-is, I would hate to see a lot of it get torn down or whatever. But the growth out there is too high for the area to keep up, I think.
Even Baltimore (where I'm currently living) has higher density than Portland, and most of the buildings here are only 2 or 3 stories high.
I love programming, I'm well educated, I'm a model citizen. However when I was 18, I had a tiny brush with the law, and guess what? It turns out that in order to even enter Canada, I have to file loads of paperwork and have multiple witnesses confirm that I'm reformed. (They found out when I got harrassed at customs a few years ago, and I do mean that I was given very nasty treatment.) Canada is the most intolerant nation I have ever come across when it comes to minor first offenses. I would never even think about visiting the place let alone work there. Don't work there is you are against fascism.
Would I get arrested if I lay out completely naked, where nubile 19 year old girls can see my manhood in all it's glory?
As for cities not having lots of $$$$, contrary to popular belief, they do. They are always whining they are short of funds and therefore, need to raise taxes. B.S. Forget about what they state on their "budget" report. Take a look at that entity's CAFR (Comprehensive Annual Financial Report). It will shock you.
...I am apalled by the number of otherwise intellegent people who are crying for other people to pay for their conveniences!
*ahem*
You consider a person's health a "convenience"?
Nobody knows how better to run your life than you, so the best policy is no policy. Freedom will attract high tech.
You've just described what many urban planners hate nowdays: sprawl. Everyone is supposed to emulate Portland now and pack more people and businesses into less space. Didn't you know that people who leave their decaying neighborhoods and move into the suburbs have been reclassified as evil? They are supposed to be tolerant of the crack heads next door, the gangsters on the corner, the illegal immigrants across the street, etc. and stay in the crossfire. Where have you been?
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
I can't comment on the relative merit of other cities vs. Montreal since I had never stayed outside of Montreal for an extended period of time, but here are some good point for my city :
Downside include :
Anyway, Montreal is not the no. 1 high-tech mecca in North-America, but a nice place to live with a good tech foundation.
:wq
Also leases that start on some synchronized date (Sept. 1 for Boston or June 1 for Montreal) are anathama.
That's July 1st in Quebec (Montreal included), for the record.
:wq
Portland is at the forefront of passing laws and creating new jurisdictions that supposedly force smart growth. People cite Portland as an example of the "correct" way of doing things because people naively think that laws and the like have their intended consequences.
"Public" health care? Your health is YOUR problem, not mine. Don't rob me at gun-point because you're too stupid to buy your own health insurance or find your own doctor, or prepare when you DO have a job for those times when you DON'T.
The best places I've lived have always been the ones with the least taxes. Those were also the places with the most available doctors, the most reachable churches and community organizations, the easiest regulations, and the most friendly neighbors.
Along with that came nearly non-existant crime, little or no "drug" problems, no gangs, tollerance for race/sexual-preference/religion/style.
Before you go decrying how "public" services are required, remember that no matter how well those "public" services seem on paper, they always cost more than the same service provided by interested, involved individuals.
It's too bad that logical thinking required by high-tech work does not extend into other parts of peoples lives. On the other hand, the 'Net is a hotbed of support for individual rights, so maybe those who haven't yet applied logic to social issues are a decreasing minority.
I certainly hope so.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Sorry buddy, of the 5 (techie) folks I knew who moved to Houston, all of em hated it. Diverse if you like lots of low income people mixed in becuase you have zero zoning laws. Oh yeah, then there is mosquito season (9 months) an no mosquito season. And more humidity then you can imagine.
One of the worst things I've seen/heard from people who live in the 'high tech heavy' cities/areas, is how high (most often termed 'insane' from them) the cost of living is in such places. The term 'high tech' seems to almost always conjure the idea 'big bucks'. With the pay rates assosciated with the stable tech industries/vendors (read 'not fly-by-night dot coms'), people start to feel there's 'more money in the air', and prices start getting jacked up. Hell, here in the Salt Lake valley, there's a nearly constant difference of 10 to 15 cents per gallon of gas between the west side (more middle and lower incomes) and the east side ('where the money is', the usual sentiment goes).
The point: people will try to milk perceived 'cash cows' as hard as they can, and having high-tech industry/service around, one can suddenly 'feel money in the air'.
As for 'The Three T's', well, think of the truly 'techie' people you know. They almost always can be considered 'eccentrics' in one way or another in relation to 'the general accepted public view' (Goths, anime junkies, Pythonites, Stars Wars fanatics, 'l33t g4m3r phr34kz', 'furries', RPGers, etc, etc. (And yes, I consider myself a few of these, so I have license to poke fun :b ) ). Techie people just -tend- to desire a varied and wide range of things. Hell, just look at a cross-segment of /. topics and threads. ;)
"Your mind is like a parachute. If it doesn't work, you're screwed..."
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
If your neighbors complain, just catch the spunk in a kleenex or something. Jeez...
If cities are going to emulate Portland, they should make a lot of noise about density, then sprawl like crazy anyway. Portland has about 3.9k people per square mile. Compare to Seattle (6.7k), Los Angeles (7.9k) or San Francisco (16.6k). Portland isn't even that much denser than Phoenix (2.8k), for crying out loud! See a complete list of densitites for all US cities of with 50k or greater population.
I'd much rather live in the country. It's peaceful, cleaner, lower crime, less expensive, and IMHO, a better place to raise a family. I've been to SF, Silicon Valley, Atlanta, Dallas, & Chicago and you couldn't pay me enough to live in any of those places. I think the only reasons I'm living where I'm at now are: 1) I actually like my job and 2) my wife squanders so much money that it's damn near impossible to save up any to move away.
The best programming job I ever had was at a Federal facility that most here would consider to be in BFE. We had lots of cool *nix machines to work on and interesting projects. At noon most of the programmers would go outside and take a walk along the neighboring corn fields. No smog, rarely any cars speeding by , and it was quiet so you could think about the latest algorithm that was puzzling you. Any resources one needed could be found on the internet [They were 10 years ago, should still be the same]. Unless it's an impulse buy, I don't purchase any geek toys at local stores and UPS/FedEx have regular delivery in rural areas. Sure, I would be paid less and it is cold in the winter, but I'd go back in a heartbeat.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
- Scale/density/diversity of NYC
- Low taxes/regulation of Las Vegas or Houston
- Tech/academic concentration of Silicon Valley or Boston
- Low housing costs of Pittsburgh
- Weather of San Diego (of much less importance)
I've been in San Francisco for 8 years, which I guess is sort of a compromise on all of the above. Nearly moved to Austin instead of SF out of school, which would've been a different compromise on all of the above.When my current gig is up (hopefully a long time) I hope to move out of the US.
How should a city handle growth? Build lots of highrises. Like Hong Kong or Vancouver. NIMBYs can go elsewhere.
Looking back, my laundry list was composed from two points of view, the geek as employee, and the businesses likely to employ geeks. Both are what Ottawa are trying to attract, because without attracting the businesses, there is no need for geeks.
I also forgot to throw in affordable child care. If a municipality doesn't nurture a good child care system in their community, one that businesses can take advantage of, then married geeks will not have any incentive to move up north.
If you are a company trying to build a new R&D centre in Ottawa, and the local ISP doesn't know NTP from NNTP and outlaws servers and has crappy service and capped bandwidth, the geeks will know and won't move to your new building. Word about lousy ISPs gets around, and if Ottawa allows cr@pHome a 20 year exclusive monopoly for lousy, restrictive access, they won't attract much more hi-tech workers than the few trapped there now.
Computers in schools? What's the percentage of geeks with larvae?
Its not the geek with larvae, its a local pool of talent to recruit from over the next few decades. Businesses (errr, good, well managed businesses) choose to relocate based on a large number of factors, and having a tech-knowledgable school system is a big plus. It means that when kids grow up and graduate from university, they will probably stay in the area. Berkeley and Stanford are the reason Silicon Valley exists, as MIT and some Ivy League schools account for Boston's leap into hi-tech. The education effect goes all the way down to grade school level, you can't have top notch universities without a good stream of local talent feeding them.
the AC
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
For those of you less informed, the harder it is to develop/redevelop land into housing, the higher the cost of living.
Things like 'living wage' also force people out of the city. Living wage == higer basic costs for everthing == less affordability for low income people
Have fun, stay in California, pay $3000 for a 500/sq ft apartment. Take home $50 a month after taxes/rent.
And, of course, complain no more. You choose it. You live in it.
Sure the "three T's" are all well and good, but so is quality of life, clean air, clean water, and tollerance of life, not just life style.
If I can't target shoot off the back porch, how am I going to relax after a hard session of coding?
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Businesses will stay open later if it makes economic sense for them to.
Businesses will NOT stay open if local laws prevent it. The point was not to madate late hours but to permit them.
Certainly not SIXTEEN HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR A FUCKING STUDIO.
(Yes, Irvine, CA, that means YOU!)
What a moron. Look, if a gay person doesn't interfere with my life, I think we should let that person live however they wish. The same goes with the use of drugs--as long as it doesn't interfere with my life, my neighbor can do whatever they want. I'm not brainwashed. I simply believe in the mantra of "live and let live".
You seem to be afraid that being around gay people will somehow make *you* gay. Sounds to me like you are a latent homosexual. You ought to experiment with this. You might find your real calling in life.
As for San Fran being a cesspool, I'm not quite sure what city you're talking about. I travel quite a bit, and I can honestly say that SF is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. The nightlife, the arts and entertainment, and the city & park life is wonderful, with few equals anywhere in the world.
Spread deadly diseases to the N. American continent? OMG. What planet are you on? Given your reasoning, next we should get rid of all the women. After all, AIDS is transmitted about 10x more easily from the man to the woman during sexual intercourse than it is the other way around. So perhaps God wants to get rid of the gays and the women (please not the sarcasm). You unenlightened twit.
As for the raping of 13 year-old boys, I think we should probably focus more on Catholic priests than on the homosexual community. There are a *lot* fewer priests out there, but there sure seems to be a lot higher percentage of priests raping little children than the homosexual community at large.
Where do you get these wonderful statistics about the average lifespan of homosexuals? I'd like to see even one reference to this, regardless of how dodgy the source might be.
Your opinions are pathetic, the result of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Gays aren't another race of beings. They're really quite similar to you and me. In my experience, the members of the gay community are far more upstanding, on average, than the heterosexual community. Why? I'm not sure. But I've got a hypothesis that it's a result of the gay community being more open to people that aren't like themselves. Tolerance is good. And the Golden Rule is even better. Try practising it once in a while--you might find that a few of those gays you've always hated turn out to be genuinely good people. One might even become your best friend! Without "brainwashing" you to become gay (gasp!).
Or perhaps you should live in your own little world, bashing gays whenever you get the chance. I'm sure that makes you feel better about yourself--you don't have to come to terms with your own sexuality. Gays are nothing to be afraid of. They, with the exception of a few bad apples (I don't need to mention the problem with heterosexuals and rape here...there are bad apples on both sides), don't tend to impose their beliefs on others. They don't go seeking out heterosexuals so they can turn them. They are often in committed, monogomous relationships. They are usually caring, kind people. In short, they're just like the heterosexual community, except that their sexual preferences have required that they develop tolerance. It would be nice if you could learn a little, too.
--Be human.
Atlanta grew much faster than Silicon Valley in the 90s. See http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/ta b05.txt. The SF bay area attracted more VC money and more importantly, failed to build new housing.
Okay, maybe I'm biased in that Atlanta doesn't fit the 'stereotypical tech city' template for me to begin with. Main reason, I used to live around there myself (Snellville, to be more specific). Loved it when I lived out there, and look at moving back in about 5 years.
Atlanta may not have the public transportation factor, but I think what makes Atlanta most appealing to me, is room. Folks in the Atlanta area don't have to crowd into a geographically defined/limited area, as is so often found in other cities (Salt Lake, mountains all around; many west coast cities, ocean on one side, mountains on other, etc). All of the suburban areas surrounding Atlanta provide the places to live, and the 'city proper' provides all the advantages of a big city without you having to actually live in it. There's also the more 'laid back' atmosphere in general, but that comes with tradition and custom more than anything.
My 'ideal' for a tech city would be one not of a huge, built-up downtown area, but of nice, reasonably spread-out suburban areas, with the bustle and action of downtown when I want it, and relative peace and isolation when I want it. I've done my time in 'cube land' over the years at work , I want some room, dammit!
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
Fast internet connections and faster women?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I've lived in the country and city. I by far prefer the country. While visiting the city is great, having to live there is another matter.
One of my biggest problems with the city is that it is too cramped. My backyard is over 100 acres of open land, how many of you in the city can say that?? Country life is also a slower pace, everything in the city is rush, rush, rush, but it seems to be the oppoisite in the country.
Even though I live in the country, I still have a high-tech job. I still have my DSL internet and satellite TV, all the ammenities of city life. If I want to do something that is only avaliable in the city, well then I'll drive there. It's not like city people don't drive everywhere anyway, so not much is different there either.
To me, country life has it all, but I know it's not for everyone. Different storkes for different folks I guess.
You have me laughing my ass right off.
-Rufus
In the 1970's, Boston was the center of technology. Currently, Silicon Valley is. In my opinion, the most important factor to generating an excellent technical area is having excellent colleges. (Harvard and M.I.T. supplied many electrical engineers to the Boston area; Stanford and Berkeley provide them to Silicon Valley.)
Without excellent colleges, a place may be incredibly pleasant to live in, but it will have to import all of its technical talent. Although I have nothing against either Carleton University or the University of Ottawa, neither is a world-caliber university.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. Or a juggernaut.
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
i'm probably a bit odd for a slashdot reader in that i actually _like_ support jobs.... not so much the call center variety, but there's nothing that i like more than working for the IT department in a college or university. the pay isn't always the best, but the low pressure environment and the variety of day to day work makes up for it for me.
so i'd have to say that the two biggies for me are a few largish colleges in the area, and a fairly low cost of living. right now i'm in buffalo and i love it. cheap rent, great restaurants, a wonderful art and music scene; everything i could ask for. i've spent time in all the continental states (except for oklahoma and delaware) and in all their major cities, and this is my favorite.
(yeah, i know, i'm the only one in the city who isn't actively trying to escape. :P )
--saintDesigned specifically to keep a city geographically small to keep public transit effective, reduce the need for future roads (which actually encourages more traffic instead of handling existing load), and prevent urban sprawl. It also has the added side benefit of keeping people from moving here, because you can't go move to the middle of nowhere and drive in without buying a farm in the mountains or commuting from Vancouver/southwest Washington. (Oregon's full, we don't want you.)
Chicago also has an urban growth boundary, but Illinois isn't exactly strict about enforcing it, however.
Help us build a better map!
Alternate jobs in the same line of work. This means competition for the best jobs but also that jobs exist should I decide to move on.
Cost of living. Forget what I get paid, what do I get get to keep relative to similar money in other towns. ($95k in DC versus Baltimore)
Very good schools at two levels. First, for my children, elementary/high schools. Then for what it brings to the area one or two good technical colleges. The first is far easier than the second but most places seem to succeed or fail at both.
Good cultural opportunities. Sports, Theater, Arts.
Good public transport. Even if you build the ideal city I will still live in the suburbs and want to commute without a headache.
Fair taxes. I do not mind paying my share but it needs to be fair, and get me at once. I am tired of getting five different tax bills.
And seeing where you are from I just have to add, nice weather...
From this and the previous posters you see why this is hard to accomplish. Most cities do not have the billions of dollars necessary to start a college/university, build schools, public transportation, and cultural facilities.
Start with jobs. If you have them, they will come...
Or do you expect me to be happy to pay for someone elses accupuncture at gun-point?
What about Chinese medicine? Powdered Tiger Claw, paid for by taxes?
The alternative is to have someone else decide what is or is not health care. As with all taxes, someone else decides what to pay for with my money. Or, if I'm lucky, I get something I want paid for by your money, whether you like it or not.
Oregon took the most intelegent aproach to "socialized" medicine I've ever heard of. They used logic and reason, and the plan failed.
They ranked all diseases and procedures by cost and effectiveness. The greatest benefit/cost items, such as medical checkups for pregnant women and immunizations, ranked highest. The most costly and least effective, such as keeping newborn babies with serious birth defects alive artificially until they died anyway, were ranked lowest.
They then took their proposed budget, and started at the top of the list. When they ran out of money, they said, "We can cover all this, and nothing else."
When people saw the kinds of things that didn't make the list, the project was scrapped. There were a large number of people who thought what didn't make the list was vital "health care", and rejected it due to what could not be covered.
Places like Canada have discovered that trying to cover everything will bankrupt a system, because people will use it for everything.
Health of the individual is the individuals business. Yours is not mine, so don't even try to make me like paying for your convenience.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of things that are near the top of my list for me:
1. Good job market. This is pretty obvious, but I'm surprised not too many people are saying it. I want to live in a place where I have options as far as jobs go. This helps to two ways. First, there are more companies competing for my services, so I'm likely to get a higher salary/better benefits/etc. Second, if for some reason I need to switch jobs, I can switch without a lot of problems. If you live in a place that only has a handful of high tech companies, it's much harder to move to a different job.
Good ratio of salary to cost-of-living. It doesn't matter if you get paid more in a particular area if you're spending all your money on housing/food/taxes/etc.
Quality of life. This is where every person basically has to decide for themselves what's important. When you are coming out of school, things like night life are important. However, as you get older, things like quality of schools and health care have more importance.
I've lived in a few different places, and I've found that Baltimore is definitely a great city for high-tech. There are plenty of high-tech companies in and around the area (lots of game companies in particular), the cost of living is great (especially compared to D.C.), there are a lot of cultural and recreational activities, the education and health care systems are top-notch (Johns Hopkins/U of MD), and because it isn't a "trendy" city it isn't overbuilt.
------
www.moneybythenumbers.com
tech fellas...
homophobia is NOT sexy...
a man afraid of a sexuality is never going to be attractive...
is that why you are single?