Recreating The Lost Art Of Damascus Steel

YouAreFatMan writes "The Chicago Tribune has an article about two researchers -- a metallurgist and a blacksmith -- who have apparently been able to reproduce the legendary Damascus steel. 'Islamic artisans used it for centuries to make swords that spurred envy and myths among Europeans--including the legend that a Damascus blade could slice a falling silk scarf in midair.'"

Comments

Re:choice quote..

[Phil-14]

Hmm. I thought pattern welding was used as a useful metalworking technique for over a thousand years, and not just to imitate the appearance of Damascus steel.

Then again, there's a lot of metalworking tech besides Damascus steel that's been kinda-sorta lost, like a lot of the twist-core stuff used by the Franks, Vikings, and Chinese. The Franks also supposedly folded the metal multiple times, just like the Japanese did.

Barrels are Different...

[dbCooper0]

The term "damascus" has two entirely different meanings depending on whether you are talking about steel used for blades or a barrel fabrication method. Damascus steel is alternating layers of soft and tough low carbon steel with high carbon steel that is hard and brittle. By alternating the low and high carbon steel in layers, a blade will hold an edge like high carbon and resist breakage like low carbon. Damascus barrels are spiral wound out of a single steel. BTW, damascus barrel guns should NEVER be fired with smokeless powder. (stolen from one of the first references I found: at Muzzleloadermag.com

I remember hearing about these guns and never knew the distinction from the blade. Until now...

Re:vg-10

[MegaGremlin]

OK, I'll give you that modern steel might hold a better edge, but get yourself a 36" x 2.5" blade and smack it against a damascus (or even spring steel) blade of equal size and see which fares better. Remember, sharp tends to mean brittle. A blade that cuts through anything doesn't do you much good if it turns to powder the first time it hits anything.

Re:What we are & what we aren't.

[Genjuro Kibagami]

heheh, this reminds me of a friend of mine who is a swordsmith, he makes quite good swords, not as good as the ones you can get from master smiths but much better than the stainless steel stock removal jobs from spanish and taiwanese vendors, anyhow, he makes three swords pretty much identically and from swedish powdered steel stock and chooses cow bone as the test material (extremely hard, will expose the blade to quite a high possibility of a break if it is too brittle or a bend if it is too soft).

He broke two of his blades not knowing the correct cutting technique and got me to test the third one first on one thick leg bone, then two, then three, sheared clean through them each time with nothing but a minor non fatal chip on the very edge on the third attempt with three bones.

I guess when it comes down to it, swords work in the fashion that they are designed to work, swinging a decent katana in the same fashion as a louisville slugger is probably not a good idea to test the strength of the blade. ;)

Re:Just use micro-aligned crystals...

[DCheesi]

The Japanese swords were also quenched in a special way, to make the front edge hard, while the back remained springy (this is still done today for some swords). So it's sort of like what these guys are doing, but at a more macroscopic level.

Your sig - OT

[wirefarm]

To hell with proper syntax! I put my punctuation outside of quotes. Change that archaic rule now!

Speaking of archaic technologies and practices, it's somewhat interesting to note that placing punctuation marks inside quotes is a relatively modern practice, started after the advent of the printing press. The use of justufied text became popular and it lined up better if the lines ended in a quote, rather than a period. The reasoning was aesthetic, not logical.
I also put punctuation outside quotes, when dealing with technical writing, where a quoted command could become confusing. I'd love to see the practice become more widespread.

Cheers,
Jim in Tokyo

Re:Interesting, but not surprising considering

[Anonymous Coward]

Historians will tell you that the information the crusaders brought back was what caused the end of the European dark ages and the beggining of the Renaissance.

I hate to say it, but this is not really accurate. To some degree, what crusaders brought back to the west was important, but beyond technology, it was the religious and cultural climate of the twelfth and early thirteenth centuries followed by the decline in population of the fourteenth century that really spurred on what we would call the Renaissance. What happened was that there was a vast cultural bloom (in literature, art, theological thinking, etc...) followed by a thinning of the population that allowed individuals to really stand out. Technology was really only secondary. BTW, as a medievalist, I really resent the term dark ages. They really were not dark at all. Literature and art and culture bloomed in this era, merely in a different way than they had in the Roman era. So please, call it the middle ages or medieval times or even better, use precise centuries when you speak. Dark ages is derogatory and incorrect. Thanks. Adam.

Re:The legend of the scarf

[hey!]

Hmm. it seems you are right, or at least that the legend is here. See the Project Gutenberg text of The Talisman.

The part of the text in which the story occurs does not reference s scarf, but a cushion and then a veil.

Here is the relevant section:

He led the way accordingly to a splendid pavilion, where was
everything that royal luxury could devise. De Vaux, who was in
attendance, then removed the chappe (CAPA), or long riding-cloak,
which Richard wore, and he stood before Saladin in the close
dress which showed to advantage the strength and symmetry of his
person, while it bore a strong contrast to the flowing robes
which disguised the thin frame. of the Eastern monarch. It was
Richard's two-handed sword that chiefly attracted the attention
of the Saracen--a broad, straight blade, the seemingly unwieldy
length of which extended well-nigh from the shoulder to the heel
of the wearer.

"Had I not," said Saladin, "seen this brand flaming in the front
of battle, like that of Azrael, I had scarce believed that human
arm could wield it. Might I request to see the Melech Ric strike
one blow with it in peace, and in pure trial of strength?"

"Willingly, noble Saladin," answered Richard; and looking around
for something whereon to exercise his strength, he saw a steel
mace held by one of the attendants, the handle being of the same
metal, and about an inch and a half in diameter. This he placed
on a block of wood.

The anxiety of De Vaux for his master's honour led him to whisper
in English, "For the blessed Virgin's sake, beware what you
attempt, my liege! Your full strength is not as yet returned
--give no triumph to the infidel."

"Peace, fool!" said Richard, standing firm on his ground, and
casting a fierce glance around; "thinkest thou that I can fail in
HIS presence?"

The glittering broadsword, wielded by both his hands, rose aloft
to the King's left shoulder, circled round his head, descended
with the sway of some terrific engine, and the bar of iron rolled
on the ground in two pieces, as a woodsman would sever a sapling
with a hedging-bill.

"By the head of the Prophet, a most wonderful blow!" said the
Soldan, critically and accurately examining the iron bar which
had been cut asunder; and the blade of the sword was so well
tempered as to exhibit not the least token of having suffered by
the feat it had performed. He then took the King's hand, and
looking on the size and muscular strength which it exhibited,
laughed as he placed it beside his own, so lank and thin, so
inferior in brawn and sinew.

"Ay, look well," said De Vaux in English, "it will be long ere
your long jackanape's fingers do such a feat with your fine
gilded reaping-hook there."

"Silence, De Vaux," said Richard;"by Our Lady, he understands or
guesses thy meaning--be not so broad, I pray thee."

The Soldan, indeed, presently said, "Something I would fain
attempt--though wherefore should the weak show their inferiority
in presence of the strong? Yet each land hath its own exercises,
and this may be new to the Melech Ric." So saying, he took from
the floor a cushion of silk and down, and placed it upright on
one end. "Can thy weapon, my brother, sever that cushion?" he
said to King Richard.

"No, surely," replied the King; "no sword on earth, were it the
Excalibur of King Arthur, can cut that which opposes no steady
resistance to the blow."

"Mark, then," said Saladin; and tucking up the sleeve of his
gown, showed his arm, thin indeed and spare, but which constant
exercise had hardened into a mass consisting of nought but bone,
brawn, and sinew. He unsheathed his scimitar, a curved and
narrow blade, which glittered not like the swords of the Franks,
but was, on the contrary, of a dull blue colour, marked with ten
millions of meandering lines, which showed how anxiously the
metal had been welded by the armourer. Wielding this weapon,
apparently so inefficient when compared to that of Richard, the
Soldan stood resting his weight upon his left foot, which was
slightly advanced; he balanced himself a little, as if to steady
his aim; then stepping at once forward, drew the scimitar across
the cushion, applying the edge so dexterously, and with so little
apparent effort, that the cushion seemed rather to fall asunder
than to be divided by violence.

"It is a juggler's trick," said De Vaux, darting forward and
snatching up the portion of the cushion which had been cut off,
as if to assure himself of the reality of the feat; "there is
gramarye in this."

The Soldan seemed to comprehend him, for he undid the sort of
veil which he had hitherto morn, laid it double along the edge of
his sabre, extended the weapon edgeways in the air, and drawing
it suddenly through the veil, although it hung on the blade
entirely loose, severed that also into two parts, which floated
to different sides of the tent, equally displaying the extreme
temper and sharpness of the weapon, and the exquisite dexterity
of him who used it.

Re:Well that's the most useful thing ever

[rabidMacBigot()]

More neat katana tricks: the aesthetically and functionally perfect curve of a katana doesn't form until the nearly-finished blade is quenched, and it forms naturally - it's not forged in. The differing hardness and thickness on either side of the blade causes it to cool and contract at different speeds, forming the curve. The steel on the back of the blade is also much softer than the steel of the edge, which is why you'll see people in movies deflecting and parrying with the back of the blade. This allows an enemy's weapon to bounce off the softer steel so the hard edge doesn't chip or shatter.
At least, I think so - that's what I heard from a friend who was a blacksmith for a while.

Patents

[QuoteMstr]

Why, exactly, can they patent this? Isn't the Damascus steel itself prior art?

vg-10

[Chundra]

Damascus steel is cool, but it's nothing compared to the edge holding and sharpness you can get with VG-10 steel. You can find that on some of the more expensive Spyderco knives. I recently got a custom stoneworks Viele, and the thing can slice through about 30 pages of paper by just *pushing* on the blade. You really would have to use one of these to appreciate the quality. It truly puts Damascus to shame (though it isn't as pretty).

Re:I would KILL for...

[budgenator]

a note about a few misconceptions,

1. the original steel for Japanese blades had several contaminates from the original iron ores they used
2. 1. Chromium
   2. Vanaddium
   3. Molybdenum
3. by rehaeating the blade repeatedly the steel aquires carbon for iron carbide (very hard but brittle)
4. The hard part of folded blades in general is making the welding flux things like silica sand, and Sal amonium are used this is what the secrete formulas came from mostly
5. the actual folding pattern controls the patern on the blade and a lot of its individual properties. if I remeber correctly, individual modern knife-smiths have patents, trademarks and or copyrights of these paterns

In short to do-it yourself start with your Craftman's socket set, some old carbon bateries, and sand and start pounding. Maybe you'l figure it out before you go broke. I don't think that just because the original steel was from Japan that maybe chinese ores wouldn't have been simalar, and available to the Indian and Arab's, they were primarily trading societies

modern damascus != saracens' steel

[Keith_Beef]

There's a lot of confusion in the posts here...

Note: I'm almost exclusively discussing European techniques.

I'm an amateur knifemaker. I don't forge blades yet (well, I've started one in 070A72 but not getting very far because of time and meteorological conditions: it's too damn hot to spend time in the forge)... but I'm studying the background and making up knives and bill-hooks by stock-removal either from rolled bar or from forged blanks that I buy.

I can buy a piece of 'damascus' about 20cm × 5cm × 1cm (i.e. 8" × 2" × 13/32") from my knife dealer, or I can buy a part-finished blade in 'damascus'. I can even get a near-as-damn-it finished bowie blade that just needs quillons, handle and pommel then sharpening.

These blanks and bars can even be made of stainless steels. Clearly this has very little to do with the original Oriental process (stainless was invented in Sheffield, England, in around 1916). The term 'damascus' is used because of the technique of taking two steels of different compositions and forge welding them together, and because the visual effect is very similar.
The action of folding, hammering, repeating gives a final piece that has many many layers of these different steels. When you clean up the finished piece with a certain chemical (I forget the list of things used, though I seem to remember iron sulphate and even citric acid), the difference in colour between the two steels is accentuated.

Making and using modern 'damascus' steel responds primarily, to my mind, to aesthetic rather than functional criteria. This is confirmed by the increasing use of 'damascus' amongst custom knifesmiths and hobbyists for making mitres, guards and pommels. Modern steels are easily good enough for the job of cutting and holding an edge. Indeed, for some jobs, you really should only use stainless (knives that touch foodstuffs, including skinning and hunting knives).

Up until the nineteenth century, and for some applications, into the first couple of decades of the twentieth century, good steel was too expensive and too brittle to be used alone. It is very common to find knives, axes, adzes and other chopping tools that are made by welding a hard steel edge onto a softer but tougher 'body'. This does not give the 'damascus' effect of wavy lines throughout the tool. Another technique was to take a bar of the expensive hard steel, a bar of the less expensive tough steel or iron, and twist the two together. This technique is ideal for the forging of long blades such as swords. This technique was known to the Vikings in Scandinavia and in England.

There are quite a few books that explain how to go about creating these modern 'damascus' steels. From the simple wavy pattern, to repeated geometric patterns. I've even seen photographs of blades with legible text composed from 'damascus' blocks.

Getting back to the point, and to touch upon patents a little, is that these two Americans have re-discovered that traces of Vanadium made a big difference... Well, I bet that professor of metallurgy is kicking himself now. It is very well known that very small amounts of Vanadium, Manganese, Chromium, etc, can change the physical properties of steel. And since we're also talking about the micro-cystalline structure of a composite material, he should have thought about this a little earlier... Take two steels, one of which contains just enough of an element that increases toughness, make 'damascus' steel from them. Simple? Perhaps so simple he overlooked it. Perhaps he thought "well, they wouldn't have had access to Vanadium back then, so it's not worth looking into".

But then again, there are some very strange steels that have been produced (and may still be being produced) in what we would call 'very primitive conditions' in India... For example there is a very large pillar made of iron or steel (I forget which, and I forget where it is) that has peculiar corrosion-resistant properties, supposedly due to "trace impurities"...

You should never overlook the improvements that can arise from letting "impurities" into things... I bet the first time yeast found its way into the dough, it was considered an "impurity".

modern damascus steel

[Phork]

I know blacksmiths who have been making what they refer to as damascus steel blades for years. Most of it is made by heating and pounding large steel cables. I guess it isnt the same as the old amascus steel, but it definitley has the look.

Re:Well that's the most useful thing ever

[Ibby]

The legend has to do with the rather famous Masamune craftsman of swords. In Japanese folklore, a master smith was considered quite good if his blade was sharp enough to cut a leaf floating down a creek. However, something was not quite proper with the blade. It is said that Masamune imbued his blades with a part of his very soul, that they should not be used except to punish evil. Because of this, a leaf floating down a creek would always avoid a Masamune blade, and never be cut. This was the truest test of master smithing, that the blade would interact with its environment in such a way.

Re:Scientific American

[hey!]

Hmmm.

What do they say about the earlier article in Feb '85 on the same subject, by researchers claiming to have solved the puzzle?

I've said it before, and I've said it again....

[Anonymous Coward]

...now I'll say it a (++cur_aleph)th time: People, this is why we need patents!

Do you know why "this technology has been lost for about 200 years"? Because it was a trade secret, that's why.

The ancient Islamic warriors couldn't rely on patent law to protect them, so they kept the method a trade secret.

Result? It dies with them.

Imagine if ancient Islamic Generals had discovered RSA encryption, but, because they couldn't threaten their enemies with lawsuits if they refused not to use it themselves, they had to keep it a secret.

Result? It's never publicly published, and for hundreds of years we end up having to rely on ROT-x. (--and even that wasn't invented until Caesar's time). Ratio today of ROT-13 aware browsers/newsreaders to PGP/GPG aware browsers/newsreaders? 10:1. That's what happens when you don't publish. That's what happens when you keep it a secret. The world needs to rediscover RSA all over again -- even if it takes millennia.

So the next time you curse the cease-and-desist letter you get from EvilCo about your opensource program PROG_TO_KILL, module MODULE_TO_KILL, lines 1324-6 and 2357-3, because, well, those mathematical operations done in that order are covered under their patents number BIGNUM and BIGNUM + SMALLNUM, which won't expire until LATER and STILL_LATER, just say to yourself:

"It's okay. I should be happy there are patents. If there weren't, the computer would still be proprietary, a closely guarded trade secret. And where does that leave my prissy "open-source! free the information! it wants to be free! it has a right to be free!" ass now, huh? No-where, that's where."

Come on, people, how hard is it? I'm really appalled by the ignorance I see here sometimes.

I'm not a lawyer, but I like acting really pissed off and even appalled at the ignorance I see here sometimes, at all these crackpot morons who haven't even studied eight credit's worth of IP law. Yeesh. The ignorance!

Re:Well that's the most useful thing ever

[dingbat_hp]

the aesthetically and functionally perfect curve of a katana doesn't form until the nearly-finished blade is quenched, and it forms naturally

Rubbish. They're forged. They do warp somewhat during the later stages of forging and hardening, which is why the hot copper block on the back edge is used to reduce this curve.

The "functionally perfect" curve has also changed somewhat over time. Some of the older shapes (esp. tachi and longer katana) are impossible to draw quickly, but they have a more sabre-like slashing action for use from horseback.