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KOffice 1.1 Rolls Out
Andreas "Dre" Pour wrote to say that KDE's long-awaited version 1.1 is out, and asks you to check the dot for some more details. He also points to this temporary fixed-for-Netscape announcement as well as the official announcement. Dre continues: "The dot link includes commentary by me (including a call for Open Source office
developers to collaborate on filters!)"
With DMCA the Microsoft filters are "effectively" protected by their refusal to share the information with the rest of the world. Find out how the filters work and you're going the Sklyarov-way.
I read the "fixed for Netscape" link. It doesn't mention Netscape at all. Is the implication that the contents of the link are fixed for Netscape? One would think that an Open Source development group would understand how to write proper HTML that would render on everything. What, did the main announcement only work on Konquerer?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Screw my karma, if this was a news for nerds website they would have told the nerds that
Internet Explorer 6.0 is out. http://www.microsoft.com/ie.
It is fast, lean and can i say fast again?
Now back to the topic, Koffice 1.1 is cool, been using the CVS tree for a few weeks. i'm still waiting for the KDE 3/QT 3.0 rewrite before i deploy.
Once you get at least 128MB of memory on your machine (yeah, I know), StarOffice works beautifully as an office suite. I've done several documents with it, including my resume.
Will KOffice support OpenOffice's XML-based file format for saving and loading documents? Besides supporting DOC, it seems like establishing an OS-wide open standard for formatted documents would go a long way to make Linux-based office tools more popular. As more and more apps use it, eventually, Word would have to provide an import filter, too.
I stayed up late last night checking out the new features. Very cool stuff.
The format support is amazing, not to mention the standard-based XML support.
I would definitely expect KOffice 1.1 to lead the charge in retaking the office desktop environment out of the hands of Redmond.
-Marvin
As another poster said :
...and not have any control over anything the installation program does?
:-)
Rpms and tarballed source install a bunch of stuff without asking the user for any input at all. At least with an installer, the distributor can give certain install options (that don't require reading the manual). Tack "less README" and the time to read it on to the time to rpm-install a package.
Another nice thing about a GUI installer is that you at least have the illusion of seeing how fast it's getting done
Last post!
I've been working with kword 1.1 for a while now.
Though still pretty feature light, it is much more stable than it had been.
I've taken to typing in chapters with kword, then integrating them into larger documents done with StarOffice. Not the best way to work, but let's me use the very snappy and pleasant-to-use kword for the biggest part of the work, while using StarOffice's larger feature set for the final heavy lifting.
One real big plus: the koffice print support (at least if you have CUPS) is awesome.
The typical Slashdotter doesn't hate IE because it is technically inferior. While MS, like Netscape, has a tradition of breaking existing standards with proprietary extensions (ActiveX, special CSS features, VBScript etc.), their browser functions fairly well. There are several reasons not to use it:
IE is not free. Eventually you pay with your freedom of choice and your privacy. That's why we care about the browsers -- not because we hate IE itself (if you throw that much cash at a problem, you are almost bound to come up with a solution). Using IE means signing away your rights for convenience. If that is your choice, fine, but you're on a shaky moral ground if you want the rest of the community to think the same way ("report IE releases!").
In addition to the now-Open-Sourced "TradeClient" Linux mail client (which I believe is Exchange-server compatible), they sell two products called Insight, which appear to be a client and a server that support Outlook/Exchange's (IMHO useless) calendar-and-meeting features on Linux. They say it's "not an Outlook clone!" but you might find one of these programs useful. They sure as damn aren't a total lack of any support , though.
In my shop, which uses MS Outlook / Exchange, I just run a standard POP3 client off the mail server's SMTP/POP gateway, and to the seven hells with the calendar functions. Integrated systems fail in an integrated fashion... Of course, not everyone has that option.
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
Because during a setup.exe-type install under Windows I can *easily* tell the program where to install itself, it'll set up icons for my gui desktop, and I usually have the ability to select and unselect specific options before the package installs itself. AFAICT, rpm and apt-get just *put* stuff certain places. I seem to recall one package I apt-getted asking me a couple questions, but I can't remember the specifics, and it seemed to be the exception to the rule.
creation science book
Get enough so that it doesn't matter. [smile]
Internet Explorer 6.0 is out
I figure that MS has enough bucks to promote their own monoploy
That said, MS always has the weirdest logic with their product names. For example, Windows CE = wince
The fact that I.E. as commonly pronounced, sounds like a scream of agony doesn't help. On the other hand, Koffice looks like you could say it "cough-ice", but that doesn't really work. And Konqueror is a decent name.
- - -
Radio Free Nation
an alternate news site based on Slash Code
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Star Office is already much more feature-rich than KOffice. The sheer amount of features is probably like 2 to 1 (or even more).
Now you might assume that I do not like KOffice, which is wrong. Microsoft Office and
Star Office actually contain FAR more features than most people ever use.
In fact, most people do not need Microsoft Office, they just buy or pirate it because they THINK they need it. The amount of features is so immense, that it scares people, and make people need COURSES to master the application. Upgrading to new versions of MS Office is for most people totally unnecessary after Office 97.
KOffice have huge potential if they keep on concentrating on making the package easy to use, well integrated with the desktop, and with an acceptable amount of features.
The analogy is almost like Linux vs. Windows. A regular Linux-distribution has an enormous amount of applications and features. Not a single Linux-user has ever needed all of them. Most distributions try to cater for absolutely everyone, and end up alienating the biggest amount of users in the process, the ones that only want to check mail, surf web and write letters.
Gaute
If we are continuing to try to advocate linux to the standard user, we do need point-n-click installers. Sure, having things that can be done at the command line is nice, but a typical user doesn't want to type much, and trying to remember all the arcane commands can be a problem.
And how many of you want to help your mother run through the rpm/deb process?
But besides the p-n-c installer, we also need some way to allow non-root users to install packages in their home dirs without the need for root to get involved. Obviously, there are some packages that would need root, and so the package manager should be smart enough to have a 'root-only' flag and tell the user that they must tell their sysadmin to install this, so that a system doesn't have 20 copies of apache running around on it. You also need to have a way for the package manager to see if the package is already installed on the system, and let the user know that installation is not needed unless absolutely necessary (say, downgrading or upgrading). Of course, there also has to be quota-watches (don't want someone installing the gimp into a 5meg quota area).
Double-clicking a package icon in whatever file mangaer you are using simply then starts this package manager up. This part is trivial for the current batch of linux fm's.
Of course, the way most packages are packaged, or how a few programs expect access at given locations, this is not a universal solution. But I do believe that such a user-installation tool is going to be another key step in getting linux to joe sixpack.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Actually, I think it's a win-win situation if
The "typical Slashdotter" that I see would rather preach than stick his head in the sand, although the same does not appear to be true about those that choose what gets submitted. Especially since recent statistics on a Slashdotting show that the vast majority of us use IE, and by implication other Microsoft apps, at some point during the day. It's certainly relevent, so why isn't it here?
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
True. Saddly exchange is a horribal calander system. I want to be reminded abotu meetings 5 mintues before they start. Everyone else wants 15 minutes. Can't be done, the meeting sets the reminder time, so I get reminded about each meeting 15 minuter before, except the ones I schedual. I've givin up on changing each one, it is too much hastle.
there are many other problems with exchange that I won't get into the reminder is the just one that has annoyed me last. It doesn't work for us, yet we have to use it.
what's the use of filters for opening Word file formats if the program doesnt support the features? Fine, it's ok if KOffice doesnt have Auto-Hyphen Underlining. But lacking endnotes/footnotes? mail merge is gone? These are SERIOUS problems. It automatically means KOffice is totally useless for any professional academic or business use. What will happen if I try to open my Physics Thesis or my Business Plan word file in KOffice - will it barf when it gets to eth footnotes? mangle it beyond compare?
Features DO MATTER. It's a very sour-grapes attitude to say "sure our open source Office lacks some features, but users dont use them anyway". If all you want out of an Office suite is to type some letters, then you don't need Office, you just need Microsoft Works! but if you want to use an Office suite for true business or academic or professional uses, you need much more features than the average letter writer.
frankly, there's a REASON that Office became the behemoth it is, and that is solely due to features, not monopoly. Remember Wordperfect used to OWN the Office space, and Lotus has a really nice office suite as well. In fact I myself used to be a SAM file diehard, until one day I just realised that the things I wanted, Lotus was dragging its feet on, and Word already had (example - integrated equation editor. advanced font and layout abilities. sectioning and numbering. Automatic tables and figures indexes. list goes on). Other things like support for third party tools like EndNote and MathType. KOffice is still behind even what Lotus and Wordperfect used to have, though I do agree it has a very nice graphic UI. And yet we still accuse the Windows people of liking style over substance?
If you want to do professional business or academic work, there are only two options. TeX or Microsoft Office. Right now, KOffice is still in Microsoft-Works league. Features DO matter and we need them on teh desktop office suite (not the browser :P)
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
Use the words "rest of the community" carefully. True, there are a large number of open source mavens on Slashdot, but they are an equal number (if not far greater) that simply like good technology and don't care where it comes from or its possible underlying "grassroots" crusades. I'm not an inherent fan of Microsoft, but I certainly like Windows 2000 for example, the same as I like Linux. For me, a member of the "community", it's not whether it's "free" or not that's important, but whether it is functional, usable and stable. Windows 2000 is the first OS from MS that really fits these bills.
Same way, I think IE 4.0 revolutionized a lot of what we consider the "operating system" and "applications", whether "the community" likes it or not. It brought a lot of this to the masses, and I was impressed with it.
Plus, you make a few mistakes in your arguments:
- Every IE user is not an inherent Passport user. I'm not, and I've been using Windows XP since the first beta release. In addition, Smart Tags are almost officially gone from the XP roster. These are truly optional features, and Windows/IE runs just fine without them.
- Digital Rights Management, like Smart Tags, is a feature that is not enabled by default and is very easy to change. In Windows Media Player, for example, one can easily turn off the copyright protection on WMA files with a checkbox. I'm assuming you have never used Windows Media Player 7.0 and above?
- PICS is hardly used on the internet, and the use is dictated by web developers. If you don't have it on a web page, IE assumes the content is "clean", not dirty, as your argument seems to make. The PICS standard is also fairly robust, and allows a large number of flags and modifications.
- I agree with your fourth point, except for the term "security specialists". To be honest, a lot of the community simply doesn't look for bugs, it just makes the fixes when they're published. Some don't have the time, while others simply don't have the technical ability. To liken the open source community to a security team is a real misnomer.
- I agree partly with your fifth statement, but I'll bring up a point that earned me an "interesting" before: MS has spent a great deal of time in the past year renovating IE for the Mac, making it a solid broswer with little connection to the Windows operating system. In fact, there have been a good number of improvements in IE for the Mac that simply haven't been made to IE in Windows. If they were working towards OS monoculture, wouldn't they be trying to remove functionality from Mac IE?
I remember a tagline from around 5 years ago announcing that the internet had been hijacked by the 'point and click slumlords'
.spec files and take a list of files, and run through and install them in order based on some config file.
nonetheless, I'll acknowledge that we want to invite everyone into linux, but it's never going to be windows - and shouldn't
Any GUI install needs to be an *OPTION*, not the default and only install method.
I do most of my work in an xterm, and don't want GUI's launching all over. I also want more control.
Perhaps the best solution is to have some sort of GUI for autoconf that does the same thing you can do from cmdline, but is also able to read rpm
An example would be: a gui that uses wget, lynx or something similar to download the latest kde packages, uses autoconf to check some default vaules, comes back with some config boxes -- it could look 'windows-install-ish', and then these values are passed to all of the configure scripts as tarball after tarball is built and installed and results are logged.
But... I don't want some heavy setup.exe that uses java or something that takes over my whole screen. Just something simple, and it has to work with *SOURCE* distributions.
But a well written package manager with appropriate options at the command line can be easily adapted to fit into something as simple as a Tk GUI, with the Tk code simply making system calls to the package manager CLI version.
I don't expect either rpm or dpkg to head in that direction, so this may be a non-concern.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Great job on making the /. URL reporting absolutely useless. Avoid this link, its like goatse.cx.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Not if they think
Then again, Ruffin would probably tell me I've got it all wrong.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
What I like of LyX:
Things that I would like added to LyX:
Ciao
----
FB
Uh, no. Clicking setup.exe works 90% of the time under Windows. 90% of the time under Linux, rpm -i koffice*.rpm gives you an errror message saying you need to install some other RPM. Then you have the fact that circular dependencies can only be resolved by putting both RPMs on the same command line. Then... then you have a user who just wiped Linux and reinstalled Windows...
Even when it works, typing rpm-i koffice*.rpm requires breaking out an xterm, cd'ing to the right directory, and typing the comman. You've already lost a whole lot of users right at 'xterm'.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Especially since recent statistics on a Slashdotting show that the vast majority of us use IE
Well, right now Slashdot thinks my Mozilla web browser is really IE 5.5. It's pretty hard to say how many people like me there are.
I use Corel's WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux. It has its quirks, but it is very powerful indeed and puts StarOffice to shame, features-wise.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
And how many of you want to help your mother run through the rpm/deb process?
Where's the problem?
"Click the K menu, select System -> Package Manager. Click the Open icon in the toolbar on the left side."
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Perhaps it could be argued that Microsoft's macro languages are just bad implementations, but the fact is that they are a huge gigantic awful security hole.
Yes, they can be useful, but when they can also knock a company totally off-line for days, it makes them a lot less useful.
Another problem is that Microsoft's macro language keeps changing with each new release, so if you build something advanced with it, it will probably be broken by the next upgrade. Ask me how I know.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Better yet: "Just click on the RPM package in Konqueror". Since rpm files are linked to kpackage, it will actually work.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
For quick one-time things, wordprocessors and spreadsheets. I don't really have the time to set up the templates, by the time I did, I could have had the finished product.
I could use MySQL with a web front end to keep track of my resume contacts...but it's a waste of time. That's what spreadsheets are for...quick and dirty.
I'm sure a lot of Word docs are very simple internally, but a filter that can't deal with the more complex ones is likely to have acceptance problems.
Finally, is there any possiblility of the StarOffice/OpenOffice filters being used as the basis for more widely available filters? I wasn't all that impressed with them a couple years ago when I tried StarOffice, but if nothing else they might serve as a starting point.
fencepost
just a little off
Just the current kdelibs (2.2 or more recent) should be all you need. I'm running a recent CVS snapshot of kdelibs/kdebase, hopefully that'll work too.
I've played a bit with the most recent StarOffice 6 (build 638, if I recall correctly). It also seems quite nice, though much slower currently than KOffice. If I could get KPresenter to import "powerpoint" files (the office insists on using it) I'd be set...
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
You don't *NEED* outlook for a calendaring function like this. you can do it with a web page. Yes, the backend could even send you reminders. Imagine that.
Simple little tools. Not one big monstrous one. Use a mail server to forward mail. Use a mail client to retrieve it. Use a centralized database with a nice front end for data that needs to be shared (your calendar).
For small offices, it may be nice to have exchange with calendaring, since the small offices probably don't have people on staff with the skills to put together another (even customized to their processes...imagine that!) solution. But in big companies that already have IT staff dedicated to providing solutions taylored to that company? What's the problem?
The problem is that EVERYONE is using exchange now, not just those (small offices) that need it. There are better solutions, you just have to find one that fits with your company's way of doing things, or write one in an afternoon using MySQL and Embedded perl.
Also of interest may be LAOLA, which is "a collection of documentations and perl programs dealing with binary file formats of Windows program documents." The link to that came from Wotsit's as well.
fencepost
just a little off
It's pretty easy to trash someone's software while it's still in development, and it's easy to point out the faults of someone's software because hey, we're used to finding fault in everything.
I'd like everyone to take a moment and find what's good about KOffice. I know the authors put in a lot of time and a lot of energy since 1.0 into squashing bugs, adding better support for MS filetypes, making it all around more stable, etc. Instead of bashing it, ask yourself if you've ever written a word processor. If you haven't, then don't comment. Have you ever written a spreadsheet editor? Thing is, you can find fault with someone else's software and yell and scream about it. But if you don't like it, fix it. If you can't do that, use Word or Excel and shut up. :)
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
The tricky part is that any such installer would have to handle
a ton of different packaging systems (rpm, deb, BSD-port, just to name a few) if it wants
to play well with the rest of the system.
KInstaller is trying to do that though (but it's not ready yet).
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Ever tryed installing something with dependancies?
Sure; that's why I use Debian. "apt-get install kword" would be all the Debian user needs, and I wouldn't fear walking my mom or anyone else through that. With RPM-based distros, however, your point is well-taken.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Microsoft has a massive PR machine getting that information out - all those who really want to know probably already heard from 2-3 different sources (plus you - boy am I fed up with the microsoft greek chorus on /.) KOfficve on the other hand is a bunch of OS hackers working hard for our own good - they CAN'T afford PR flunkies
Yes, but they are largely useless. In every RPM-based system I've ever used, you're almost forced to install programs with --nodeps. This is due to its stupid dependency setup that checks not for file dependencies, but package dependencies. This becomes a major headache if you, for example, install something like X by compiling it. It is difficult to express these more advanced features of RPM in a GUI that is also easy to understand.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Suprisingly enough, the only essential function for a word processor is to produce readable, reproducible output.
Everything else is a frill - like power windows on a car, "features" as you call them are essentially non-essential functions.
There are an infinite number of potential features. For example, my word processor could activate a mechanical arm to wipe my butt when I get off the toilet - what a timesaver!! Obviously, nobody will ever buy an office suite again that doesn't have this incredibly useful feature.
The things you are saying are "essential features" that "DO matter" are those things you are used to using. Most of them are available in StarOffice, but you are not sufficiently experienced in SO to understand the different methods used to achieve the same ends.
So, maybe you should choose your tools on their cost-effectiveness - an evaluation that should include reliability, maintainability, as well as any other factors unique to your goals - rather than just the features you've become addicted to. If you don't care about cost, or efficiency, you don't need a word processor, you need a ghostwriter/secretary.
I'm not saying KDE is right for you (maybe you really need Professional Write) but the "features features features" mantra by itself means little.
--Charlie
... they can't trademark the use of the word "office". It must have existed and been in common use when Bill G was a mere twinkle in his dad's eye. It's a generic english word, not MS property.
Macka
...and "Illustrator" was in common use back when Adobe was only something you made bricks out of.
Wise up. Just because it makes no sense doesn't mean corporate muscle can't make it happen.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
The Adobe thing is different because there really were very few programs (perhaps only one) that used the word "Illustrator". Also the word "illustrator" is somewhat more abstract, as the program could be better described as "draftsman".
Also, although MicroSoft has done some incredible PR blunders in the past, I find it hard to believe would be stupid enough to do this, it serves them no business purpose and would bring a great deal of bad publicity on them.
And what exactly is wrong about that? Maybe a user-specific installation of Apache could have some restrictions, like running only when the user is logged on and serving pages only to localhost, but I don't see why it should be impossible. If someone is about to test a web site, wants to test it on Apache and knows how to locally install it, I don't see why you'd want to require him to call his sysadmin.
If user Apache installations were possible, he could call his sysadmin and say "I'll need a test server that serves to our local network in maybe about a week, can you do that?" The sysadmin will be more than happy to have a week so he can delay the installation in favor of more urgent tasks if necessary, and the user will be happy to have his local setup at once, without having to wait for the admin.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
Please. That's BS, you know. :)
The DMCA forbids you to circumvent IP protection schemes. While in a MS Word doc you've written, the content belongs to YOU. No way the DMCA could be applied here.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
Filter code needs to be written in such a way that it can be shared by multiple projects. Gnumeric has fairly decent Excel import capability -- why write two from scratch?
s/IE/cocaine
e.g., it's good now, but in the long run, you'll be fucked.
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
There were ways to print footnotes on micro word processors that I'd used prior to that, but they took significant work. For word, you just hit cmd-e and filled in the box. Most of the time it would get the pagination correct (though sometimes, with plenty of room [= 1/2 page] it would still skip to the next page for the line with the footnote. As of whatever the current version was in Fall of '99, this bug was still there--I saw it bite someone two offices down.)
hawk
Well, right now Slashdot thinks my Mozilla web browser is really IE 5.5. It's pretty hard to say how many people like me there are.
I wouldn't think many - using IE as a user agent indicates to content producers you use IE. If everyone using Netscape, Mozilla, Koffice, etc used IE as a user agent, nobody would ever bother testing against anything else, and IE will have won the web forever. If you need a user agent that will get you everywhere, pick Netscape 4.7x on Win98.
Or if its nto a problem, don't change it at all.
On a side note, while slashdot made a huge deal about the filing of the lawsuit, slashdot didn't even mention it when the verdict came in (even though I submitted it).
IANAL, but I play one on
Otherwise, it's a lovely word processor.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
I'm not a bif fan of the word "bloat". I think it's used far too much. My point is a bit different.
While it is certainly true that all the features of Microsoft Office is used by someone, I would argue that at only 30-40% of those who purchase MS Office actually need such a big software-package.
The rest would be just as happy with a smaller feature-set. Microsoft has however been very good at persuading people.
There is certainly room for MS Office, but the world should know that there might be several totally adequate alternatives for them that cost a small fraction of what MS Office does.