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FiveFingerDiscount.com?
phillippaxton writes: "According to this link, dot-bomb victims are creating their own severance packages, no doubt walking away with the typical office tchotchkes (staplers, tape dispensers, etc.) but also big ticket items such as plush furniture, copiers, high-powered network servers, etc. One anecdote cites someone who lifted $445,549 of equipment, then tried to sell it on eBay as a company liquidating their assets." On the other hand, the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
the fact that it's illegal to stiff your employees out of wages due them, even in a bankruptcy, isn't mentioned in the article...
I have been a victim of this, and am owed approximately $7500 by my former employer, who one day decided not to pay anyone (not lay us off, just not pay us; then offered no explanation for two weeks). Does anybody know what recourse there is for people like me to get the money owed them? And what to do if the corporation for which you worked is dissolved? Can you go after the assets of the CEO and/or other executives? How? Through the Department of Labor (this is New York state) or through a private attorney? What has worked for people in the past?
rooooar
If they company is too broke to pay the employee wages, then they should be liquidating the equipment themselves, and using it to pay the employees. Or at least find a place for the money to come from. The workers have to eat. I've got no problem with someone taking matters into their own hands if the employer isnt paying them.
Reminds me of a story:
There was this coffeeshop where the owner was really bad at paying the employees on time. So the employees started taking their wages out of the register, and leave a note about how much they took.
Pretty soon they were always paid on time.
The moral of the story: if you want loyal employees, dont treat them like shit. And if you treat them like shit, dont be surprised when little acts of sabotage start happening.
-J5K
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
Slashdot should include "IANAL" in the article. While there are several state and federal laws to "protect" workers from these types of situations there isn't much in the area of enforcement. In a perfect world the employer is required to tell the staff that they are going to file papers when they decided to draft them. Not after the file. In practice the employees usually find out when they go do work and find a notice pasted to a locked door.
IANAL
I am posting this anonymously for obvious reasons.
The company I work for at the moment is going through chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, before I started they had a history of missing paychecks which many feel will never be payed.
They have not missed any of my paychecks, however they have provided a few hundred dollars worth of equipment so I can work from home instead of relocating to them.
And if I do end up being owed money I may very well choose to take, AS PAYMENT, that equipment, at whatever the market prices are for those parts new at the time (which seems more then fair).
Some may consider that theft, but I honestly can't see how, IF you are honest about it and actually tell the company that you are taking said assets instead of cash if they don't want to pay you.
I do have to wonder how many companys turn around and report such as theft though.
A programmer, who hopes for the best but keeps reality in mind.
Well, if this "Akron-based company" treated their employees anything like my last employer did, it's no surprise. We were told three months ahead of time that we were being laid off, and then security guards were stationed inside the building to watch us all the time.
Nothing quite like making your employees feel like criminals when it comes to making them want to steal things.
--saint
(I know, this is probably chock full o' poor grammar. I just got to work and I'm working on my first cup of coffee. Deal with it.)
I worked at one of the massive web consulting shops, and watched it go from 10,000 to about 50 employees before I finally got the golden shitcan award in July. A list of things I saw people steal follows:
-Aeron Chairs
-Dell Servers
-Compaq Servers
-Dell desktops
-Cisco hubs and switches
-Sun desktops
-A pool table.
-Microsoft Natural Keyboards
-Speakers
-Electronic foot massagers (Really.)
-Books
-Any software package known to man
-Laptops
-DLT Cartridges
-Any SCSI equipment you could imagine.
I could probably make this list longer, but I doubt anyone wants to read it.
There was that article on F**cked Company and here on Slash about the guy who sent out the memo detailing his rage at people who were only putting in 40 hrs a week on the job. (can't find the link quickly, but I remember it)
How many weeks can you run at 80+ hourd a week before you start to burn out? even if you have been sold on that dream of the company going big?
Reminds me of one gal I know who was hired at a company at big bucks, and went max out for the first month or so. When she cut back to more human levels of effort, people had gotten used to her level of production, and had started to depend on it. This was not a good thing.
So some companies can also get used to people producing at maxed out levels of production. This is not a good thing.
So I can understand people making the justifications they do. But it was sort of a trap of the spirit, baited with greed. Once you are in the trap, it is hard to find a way out, even if you wanted to.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
ah, but they DIDN'T get paid.
I went through this at a dot-bomb. We got paid monthly and the last month, we didn't. Our VC (Andy Evans, the dirtiest son of a bitch alive) did some corporate paper tricks to make it so that the company didn't have any assets, so there was no recourse for us. He effectively got out of
paying 30 people with a totally clean nose.
So, we took the equipment, to make up for our lost wages. I feel that I'm more than justified, because
a) this company OWNED the equipment I took [which was much less than other people took - I didn't even take my laptop] and
b) you don't not pay me. Period.
There are few judges that are going to throw the book at you for just keeping the gear unless you attempt to do something fraudulent with it later. And furthermore, it's just the right thing to do, all you Kohlberg-4 "I'm scared of the law" 'people' notwithstanding.
Hear hear. As long as you're sure that your employer actually owns the equipment, and that you're not going to get paid what you're owed or have been promised (written or verbal, and your immediate boss does in fact represent the company, so her bullshit promises are binding*), then I have no problem with swiping hardware.
The way that I'd prefer to do it is to agree to take hardware at a reasonable price, below retail but way above fire sale, in lieu of wages, bonuses or benefits. But I have no illusions that the survivors in my company will have the basic shred of common sense to agree to that, as they refuse to do it right now for obsoleted hardware. It's (confidentially expressed) company policy to retire hardware through theft, as it's easier than selling it on to employees!
This isn't an abstract issue for me. It looks like my reward for finishing my current project will be to have my office closed as being surplus to requirements. We're already training our (younger, cheaper, more gullible) replacements. Meanwhile, management exhorts us to work harder to deal with the problems of moving more and move responsibility and control to the parent office. People are putting in 80 hour weeks, and many of them are in denial that we're going to get cut. The decision will be made by accountants in a board room 3000 miles away, and it won't involve anyone we can impress with our hard work and dedication. This isn't a dot-com, it's an established tech company that's screwed up big time and has grasped further than it can reach.
My response? Work the 40 hours a week that I'm paid for, goof and surf for 20, and keep track of where the good toys are, for when the "We regret to inform you" announcement comes. While everyone else is wailing and gnashing in betrayed anguish, I'll be slipping a Sony Viao and hard drive into the bag I keep ready under my desk, then I'll scoop up a flat panel monitor and an 802.11b access point while I wait for the 200 copies of my resume to finish printing**.
I have no illusions that this is theft. But, you know what? I really don't give a fuck. I trusted my employer, and they've already screwed me over with impossible demands, tortuous contracts, and farcically worthless stock options. If they make the final betrayal, I'll loot the office without hesitation then sleep very soundly in my bed, believe me.
* I live in a jurisdiction where verbal contracts are legally binding. You should try it, it's very refreshing.
** If you think this is the actual list, or that I'm going to store my loot anywhere findable, dream on. Find another point of idiocy to deride.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
An axiom that a friend of mine coined, that I've always liked:
Heroic effort is not a sustainable business strategy.
Burn out your best people and you'll crash the company.
ben_ the technologist and platform agnostic
So some companies can also get used to people producing at maxed out levels of production.
I just came out of a Death March culture/company. 2.8 years of ever increasing fantasy expectations (what they wanted us to do) combined with ever decreasing fulfillment of contractual obligations (what they did with respect to their contracts to their employees).
Vacation became regarded early on as "theft from the company" - and was denied. Taking a sick day was regarded with significant suspicion.
Performance incentives (rewards for completing impossible death march projects) were tossed out - and amazingly, the teams would nail them. At the last second, the company's controller would interfer with one of the last steps (like authorizing a leased line to be ordered) and wala... the team would miss the deadline by hours and lose the bonus. Typical 'Lucy taking the football away' behavior.
Then salaries were reduced by 25% "to make the business plan look better to investors" (while senior management still drove leased bullet-proof mercedes, lotuses, ferarris and such) with the 25% to be paid at year end as a balloon payment (don't ever try this, friends!). Except guess what never showed up at year end? Then that was used to string you along to stay at the company - sort of a reverse option: "Quit and you'll never see the $50K+ we owe you!"
Then payroll started slipping. Most of the sane left then. Those who stayed worked for several months without paychecks - buying the promises of great riches. They got booted finally - firing the entire technology office in another part of the country without leaving anyone to control the assets. Their plan? Threaten the just-fired employees to work for free and inventory and package up the goods for shipping, or be accused of stealing anything that goes missing. "If you don't come in next week and ship it to us and something is missing, you know who the investigators will believe kept it."
Many of the former employees held onto items for collateral. Can you blame them? "Pay up the cash you owe and we'll release the equipment back to you." In the various colo centers the company used, the colo venders are using the same approach with respect to getting the past-due bills paid: pay us and we release your equipment.
So what's wrong with this?
*scoove*
[Completely irrelevant aside: if somebody claims to be a "lawyser", shouldn't they be dispensing "legsal advice" or maybe "legal advuice" or something like that?]
OK, so how high a standard do you need for "intent" here? Here's what I think is an ordered list of possibilities as enunciated by a typical dot com executive; where would a judge start to laugh in your face?
I'm guessing you have to get all the way to the chapter 11 filing case to nail down intent; am I right?
Babar
I run a one-man-show which is incorporated for my protection, and of course, tax purposes.
The articles of incorporation (Canadian law, BTW) clearly state that in the event of a bankruptcy, or similar, all money oweing to directors of the company (me), will be paid in full before other debitors.
So, technically, if I declare bankruptcy, I could state that the company owes me $xxx,xxx.xx and hand over the company assets to myself personally, leaving nothing for the debitors.
IANAL, but I think I've got a good one! =-)
Does anyone use something similar, and has anyone had any personal experience putting similar rules into force? I'd really love to know what sort of a leg I have to stand on. Stuff in writing is only worth the paper it's printed on until you test it!
mindslip